Lets discuss Bomberman today

[hitman]

You guys are completely missing my point.  I understand what an "oops, I win" is.  I'm saying that in a hard enough matchup, adding bad win conditions won't get you there.  Because they run Duress and you don't, you can't reliably protect it so it will get bounced rather easily.  I wasn't proposing running Dreadnought in Bomberman.  I was simply stating that Dreadnought is better than Colossus because it has synergy with the rest of the deck and that the cost of Tinker is prohibitive to your gameplan.  More often than not, you will be sacrificing a Mox to the Tinker.  That's not acceptable.  I already said I've found the best way to beat GAT is to resolve a Salvagers and ride a utility artifact all the way. 

Second, I find it hard to believe you even almost always see a Lotus.  Do you play against few Workshop decks?  Sphere effects severly dampen your gameplan as it makes moderate to expensive spells cost even more.  Does Thoughtseize not see play where you live?  Do your spells magically resolve every game?  In my experience, the GAT matchup is a war of attrition that is generally won by the player who gets enough tempo going or the player that can slow the tempo to such a degree that they can develop board position and overwhelm with resources.  Tinker/Colossus doesn't fit into this gameplan.  Rather, it's a race to bigger effects.  My argument is that more often than not, wasting slots for a subpar gameplan will result in more game losses than wins. 

Third, Bomberman already has solutions to fast aggro matchups.  Aether Spellbomb, Swords to Plowshares, and Engineered Explosives all lend themselves to fixing a bad board state and/or increasing tempo gains off Mana Drain.  The biggest suggestion I could make to any Bomberman list would be to run a third Salvagers.  By increasing your chance of having it in your hand at any given time, you don't have to "waste" mana digging for it when you want it.  Since it's been so key to my game wins lately, I added the third Salvagers and have been very pleased.  It makes it easier to switch roles, also.  I've lost several opponent initiated counterwars and just resolved a Salvagers afterwards to win the game.  By increasing the number of combo components, you're able to change gears when the opportunity arises.  The problem isn't necessarily having enough mana to play your spells, but to keep the threats coming.  If a threat (Tinker) has been stopped, I don't want it costing me permanent mana source that would otherwise be used to fire more threats at them.  More often than not, it will be a chain of spells to get to that one threat anyway.  You will never be able to keep up with GAT like that.  You need the spells in your hand to be threats, not tutors looking for more threats.

[Phele]

You guys are completely missing my point. ...  I already said I've found the best way to beat GAT ...

No, I didn't. You are just talking about a different topic. You always talk about Tinker/Colossus as it would be added to solve the GAT matchup. But you completely missed my point, that Colossus is NOT added for the GAT matchup. But instead of answering this point you continue to point out the pros and cons of Tinker/Colossus in the GAT machtup. Here in Europe GAT is by far not one of just two, three dominating deck types like in the US, so deck construction is not all about playing against GAT. You also missed my point that I also don't really get why Tinker/Mystical shouldn't have synergy with the rest of the deck. It in fact does and in a much better way than two Stifle do.

Third, Bomberman already has solutions to fast aggro matchups.  Aether Spellbomb, Swords to Plowshares, and Engineered Explosives all lend themselves to fixing a bad board state and/or increasing tempo gains off Mana Drain.

We are still talking about the maindeck, right? There are no maindeck Swords in any Bomberman list I have seen lately. And for the rest: No, they aren't enought to fight the fast aggro matchup. Stuff like Goblins is still a pain in the ass against Bomberman and both - Spellbomb and Explosives - are rather uneffective against Goblins. Tinker/Colossus DO help to improve matchups like these. And adding three single removal spells (Swords) after boarding help a bit, but not that much to make this a likely matchup.

PS I totally agree with Lotushead, I see Black Lotus in the majority of my games.

[hitman]

I'm saying Colossus isn't going to be good enough in matchups that bottleneck you at mana or hand quality.  That would include Workshop decks and Tarmogoyf based decks.  One Goblin Welder or bounce spell ruins the Colossus option.  To be honest, I haven't had to play against a lot of Goblins here lately.  Maybe it's a bigger factor in Europe.  In the past, all I've done is goldfish the matchup though.  Because Bomberman has the acceleration and an infinite combo, your beatdown gameplan is more potent than theirs.  I agree that a lot of lists have cut combo components like having one Spellbomb or two Salvagers so this isn't nearly as likely in those builds but if you have two Spellbombs, three Salvagers, and 4 Trinket Mages, it isn't that hard to go off before Goblins kill you.  If it's been successful, I guess I can't argue anymore with you.  Let me know how it works out. 

[LotusHead]

You guys are completely missing my point.  I understand what an "oops, I win" is. 

Second, I find it hard to believe you even almost always see a Lotus.  Do you play against few Workshop decks? 

 

I actually run Tinker Colossus in the side at the moment, and 2 ETW's main for additional "oops I win" starts.

I DO se a Lotus in almost every game. Sphere makes it cost 1 more. So be it. That is one of the best things about Bomberman: Trinket Mages.

For reference, here's the list I run now:



// Lands
    1  Polluted Delta
    4  Flooded Strand
    1  Library of Alexandria
    3  Island
    1  Ancient Tomb
    2  Volcanic Island
    3  Tundra
    1  Plains

// Creatures
    4  Trinket Mage
    3  Auriok Salvagers
    1  Aven Mindcensor

// Spells
    1  Fact or Fiction*
    1  Future Sight**
    1  Mystical Tutor
    4  Mana Drain
    1  Rushing River
    1  Echoing Truth
    1  Time Walk
    2  Empty the Warrens
    4  Brainstorm
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Timetwister ***
    2  Ponder
    1  Ancestral Recall
    1  Mox Emerald
    4  Force of Will
    1  Sensei's Divining Top
    1  Engineered Explosives
    1  Conjurer's Bauble****
    2  AEther Spellbomb
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mana Crypt
    1  Sol Ring
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Sapphire

// Sideboard
SB: 3  Aven Mindcensor
SB: 1  Empty the Warrens
SB: 1  Trickbind
SB: 1  Tinker
SB: 1  Darksteel Colossus
SB: 1  Rebuild
SB: 2  Gorilla Shaman (2) *****
SB: 1  Misdirection
SB: 1  Rack and Ruin
SB: 2  Energy Flux
SB: 1  Chalice of the Void ******


* This slot can be something else. My build doesn't use Thirst for Knowledge at the moment
** the experiment!
*** I've never played Bomberman without TimeTwister. I like the card that much.
**** I like this card. It lets me recur TimeTwister and is a weak draw engine with Salvager online.
***** Golden against Shops/Welders and random hate cards/Vials.
****** I won my first peice of power based on the strength of one Chalice SB

Feel free to discuss/dis this list.

[islanderboi10]

You guys are completely missing my point.  I understand what an "oops, I win" is. 

Second, I find it hard to believe you even almost always see a Lotus.  Do you play against few Workshop decks? 

 

I actually run Tinker Colossus in the side at the moment, and 2 ETW's main for additional "oops I win" starts.

I DO se a Lotus in almost every game. Sphere makes it cost 1 more. So be it. That is one of the best things about Bomberman: Trinket Mages.

For reference, here's the list I run now:



// Lands
    1  Polluted Delta
    4  Flooded Strand
    1  Library of Alexandria
    3  Island
    1  Ancient Tomb
    2  Volcanic Island
    3  Tundra
    1  Plains

// Creatures
    4  Trinket Mage
    3  Auriok Salvagers
    1  Aven Mindcensor

// Spells
    1  Fact or Fiction*
    1  Future Sight**
    1  Mystical Tutor
    4  Mana Drain
    1  Rushing River
    1  Echoing Truth
    1  Time Walk
    2  Empty the Warrens
    4  Brainstorm
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Timetwister ***
    2  Ponder
    1  Ancestral Recall
    1  Mox Emerald
    4  Force of Will
    1  Sensei's Divining Top
    1  Engineered Explosives
    1  Conjurer's Bauble****
    2  AEther Spellbomb
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mana Crypt
    1  Sol Ring
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Sapphire

// Sideboard
SB: 3  Aven Mindcensor
SB: 1  Empty the Warrens
SB: 1  Trickbind
SB: 1  Tinker
SB: 1  Darksteel Colossus
SB: 1  Rebuild
SB: 2  Gorilla Shaman (2) *****
SB: 1  Misdirection
SB: 1  Rack and Ruin
SB: 2  Energy Flux
SB: 1  Chalice of the Void ******


* This slot can be something else. My build doesn't use Thirst for Knowledge at the moment
** the experiment!
*** I've never played Bomberman without TimeTwister. I like the card that much.
**** I like this card. It lets me recur TimeTwister and is a weak draw engine with Salvager online.
***** Golden against Shops/Welders and random hate cards/Vials.
****** I won my first peice of power based on the strength of one Chalice SB

Feel free to discuss/dis this list.

I actually, really like your list of bomberman. How are the etw for the deck? I know the oops I win factor, but what about in the mid to late game, are they good? I have always liked Future sight, how is that working out? How is the deck against Gush decks? And, do you ever miss the other aven mindcensors??  No Misdirections?

I do enjoy the list, though. Thanks.

[LotusHead]

I actually, really like your list of bomberman. How are the etw for the deck? I know the oops I win factor, but what about in the mid to late game, are they good? I have always liked Future sight, how is that working out? How is the deck against Gush decks? And, do you ever miss the other aven mindcensors??  No Misdirections?

The initial build was assembled by Austin, a teammate, and it has worked great for him.  Since he commandeered my Shop peices, I'm playing Bomberman for a bit.  His list had 62 cards (boo).  This list is 61 cards only cuz I have 3 real Mana Drains, but 4 for MWS.

The ETW has been great so far, and have been decent early mid and late game.  ETW is a card that doesn't have to go all or nothing (like Tendrils). 4 Goblins is fine. 6 are even better, anything more is gravy.

I left a Mindsenser in as a random threat/disruption piece. I don't count on it, but if it shows up, great.

I am biased against MidDirection, but tossed one in the sideboard to side in for the Merchant Scroll Matchup.

I haven't done as MUCH testing as I would like, as I threw this together Fri 14 for a Sat 15 tourney, and have been doing the familiy thing since the 17th. (I'm stuck in lovely small town Utah where the locals are so casual, they draft with FOUR packs to make their decks.  Random packs.)

This was Austin's list:

Austin Martinez: Salvage the Warrens (62 cards)   

1 Island
1 Plains
2 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Library at Alexandria
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Lotus Petal

4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
2 Mana Drain
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
3 Thirst for Knowledge
1 DarkSteel Colossus
4 Auriok Salvagers
4 Trinket Mage

2 Empty the Warrens
2 Aether Spellbomb
1 Pyrite Spellbomb
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Repeal
1 Echoing Truth
1 Timetwister

SB
3 Red Elemental Blast
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Ghostly Prison
2 Energy Flux
2 Echoing Truth
1 Empty the Warrens

[Phele]

I like this new versions of you and Martinez with red added, even though the totally stable manabase was always one thing with Bomberman I almost loved the most. But Empty the Warrens and REB are quite some arguments. Maybe just for the ongoing of the discussion, I post the list of Paul Kim from Sandysky who played UWr Bomberman much more defensively and less explosively.

2 Aether Spellbomb
1 Black Lotus
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
1 Echoing Truth
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
2 Merchant Scroll
1 Misdirection
3 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Time Walk
4 Trinket Mage
3 Meddling Mage
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Auriok Salvagers

Lands (15):
2 Flooded Strand
3 Island
3 Polluted Delta
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
   
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Misdirection
2 Pithing Needle
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
2 Shattering Spree
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Volcanic Island

I don't like Shattering Spree so much here and at least one Empty the Warrens could find its way maindeck. But other elements are great: Samurai of the Pale Curtain kills your own combo, but is a bomb in plenty of matchups - and Ichorid and Flash are just the most obvious ones. The rest seems just to stratighforwardely use cheap hate Weapons of all kind.

Jacob Hilty's from the same event in Sandusky from the 8the of December is also quite good:

1 Aether Spellbomb
1 Black Lotus
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Phyrexian Dreadnought
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
4 Dark Confidant
1 Demonic Tutor
3 Duress
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
1 Cunning Wish
1 Echoing Truth
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
1 Time Walk
3 Trinket Mage
3 Auriok Salvagers
3 Aven Mindcensor

Lands (14):
1 Ancient Tomb
3 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Plains
3 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea

1 Aether Spellbomb
1 Echoing Truth
2 Exalted Angel
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Pithing Needle
1 Rebuild
2 Serenity
3 Swords to Plowshares

He also has the good stuff from the three colors to help out this more aggro control build, while still being damn consistant with the added black tutors. It has a Deez Noughts touch: While being more clunky its has the added brokenes and control tools with Salvagers. My friend Harry recommended to add Bitter Ordeal in the sideboard of these kind of builds: And yes, it can be devasting against stuff like Flash, Long, Oath and still annoying for GAT and friends. It also seems that Ancient Tomb becomes a must as a one of in many builds.

[hitman]

I'm Paul Kim from Sandusky.  Your impressions about Shattering Spree are correct.  It's no good in Bomberman.  I sided in a third Volcanic for Workshop matchups and named Wasteland with Pithing Needle but I found Workshop Aggro decks hitting on too many fronts.  Rack and Ruin would have been better.  I've since added a mainboard Hurkyl's Recall.  I know for a fact in two matchups it would have won me the game on the spot instead of the Echoing Truth I had main. 

I can't stress how amazing Samurai of the Pale Curtain is.  Against the new Affinity/Staff decks, it shuts off their draw engine and recursion tricks, as well as Crucible nonsense.  I bring him in against Shops, Ichorid, Flash, and strange aggro decks that use the Bazaar engine.

[LotusHead]

I can't stress how amazing Samurai of the Pale Curtain is. 

Noted.
Has True Beliver been tested at all in the WW-hate slot? Nerf's Duress/Seize/Tendrils and possibly some other currently played spells.

[Zelow]

I can't stress how amazing Samurai of the Pale Curtain is.  Against the new Affinity/Staff decks, it shuts off their draw engine and recursion tricks, as well as Crucible nonsense.  I bring him in against Shops, Ichorid, Flash, and strange aggro decks that use the Bazaar engine.

lol hi Paul i agree very much so in my match ups against hitman (my shop aggro his bomberman) seemed like game one i had a strong game but after he sided in Pale Curtain it seemed way to hard to keep going once he handled 1 or 2 of my threats (creatures) and dropped Pale Curtain i had no game. Pale Curtain is a complete hoser makes my clamps look like crap.

[islanderboi10]

How is the cut of Mindcensors for the Red splash right now?

I know we get EtW, but is it really that good in this meta?  Mindcensor hurts a lot of decks, but is it worth cutting and splashing red for?

[hitman]

No.  Everyone that's tried red and plays high level Magic has eventually moved back to two color.  Really, the only legitimate argument for red is Red Elemental Blast.  I wouldn't add red for that one card. 

[LotusHead]

How is the cut of Mindcensors for the Red splash right now?

I know we get EtW, but is it really that good in this meta?  Mindcensor hurts a lot of decks, but is it worth cutting and splashing red for?

Well Austin's build (which won a Shop recently) does the maindeck ETW/Volcanic Islands thing for several reasons:

1)  ETW circumvents Leyline of the Void and can get you very lucky early "uncounterable" wins.
2) Sideboard Goodness (Red Elemental Blast mainly)
3) his mana base isn't really hurt at all.  He plays a blue deck with 3 white cards and 2 red ones (and like 3 islands and a plains)
4) It pitches to Thirst for Knowledge

To recap: You can win by going broken with ETW, Salvager or Tinker.  Or play the long game and beat down with Trinket Mages/Salvagers/Goblins.  Having three early go broken plans is nice in a deck without Yawgmoth's Will.

Austin (who doesn't read these forums) said that ETW provided the most wins for him out of the last 4 or 5 tournies he's taken the deck to.

When I played Aven Mindcensor (and I don't play Bomberman that much. I'm Shop Guy), I was kinda underwhelmed by Mindcenser.  Sure, they made for a few good plays but Brainstorms often got my opponent out of a bad spot.  Playing Aven Mindsensor isn't "going broken"

No.  Everyone that's tried red and plays high level Magic has eventually moved back to two color.  Really, the only legitimate argument for red is Red Elemental Blast.  I wouldn't add red for that one card. 

Meta's differ from region to region.  The Norcal Meta as smallish tournies (20-30) compared to European and SCG/Waterbury's.  We don't have say, TMWA out here so that info affects our deckbuilding choices.

To say that ETW isn't a legitimate argument for Red in Bomberman without further discussion/evident/theory/exchange is stifling the issue.

People told me Duress sucks in Stax, and I won with my Duress Stax build.  Offer insight so others can read/decide.

If the reference to "high level Magic" was made to distinguish 7 rounds of Swiss in a 100 person tourney to our 5 rounds 20 person tournies, you clearly have no idea how scary it is to sit across the table from Luis Scott-Vargas, Webster, JeffTheFob and other regulars who know entirely too well what they are doing and make few if any mistakes ever and can read your mind psychically (LUIS) and use this info against you.  Of course, I assume you meant no disrespect on my meta.

[LotusHead]

Austin Martinez "I-R Salvagers"

1 Tolarian Academy
1 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Volcanic Islands
2 Tundra
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Ancent Tomb
1`Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Darksteel Colossus
2 AEther SPellbomb
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Empty the Warrens
3 Auriok Salvagers
4 Trinket Mage
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Mana Drain
1 TimeTwister
1 Time Walk
1 ANcestral Recal
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Tinker
1 Misdirection
1 Echoing Truth
1 Repeal

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Energy Flux
2 Flametonge Kavu
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Rushing River
1 Engineered Explosives.

Austin won a Shop (2nd place prize), but was his 2nd Shop in a row prize.

Also, 2 other Locals played Bomberman URW (ETW WTF?)
Anyone else outside of NorCal finding Empty The Warrens and Volcanic Islands good in Bomberman builds?

Daniel (4th place) said that ETW was money every time he played it. (He lost to LSV despite 1st turn Tinker for DSC/Time Walk)

This was Austin's first time seeing anybody "steal his tech" in a tourney.
 
Thoughts?

[Sextiger]

I ran Bomberman with ETW in the sideboard about a year ago at Waterbury and found it to be pretty good,even though I did not have Gift'esque storm creation with spells like Repeal. 
http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=20703

I ran the red splash for months and I found it very good, better than the other color splashes.

[Aekhold]

I'm interested in how Bomberman reacts/is able to react on the rise of Tyrant Oath. In my local metagame its really wide spread and dominates nearly each other deck except Ichorid.
So, main questions:
How to change/generally build up mainboard not to lose against Tyrant Oath? (Any specialties like 4+3+3 Counters?)
Whats the best sb card vs. them? (Or is a sb card boardable against more decks more effective, like Seal of Cleansing?)

Greetings,
Aekhold

[hitman]

@ Lotushead - I am in no way trying to bash anyone for playing different cards in Bomberman.  Admittedly, I didn't elaborate about what I said.  Because GAT has put up such good numbers in the recent past, people have tested the matchup extensively and realized that fast damage and manabase disruption halts GATs progress.  Several decks have been tried, such as Fish, Goblins, Stax, Workshop Aggro, Oath, etc.  Out of these decks, Workshop Aggro has been the most successful, recently.  Having to mainboard Volcanic Island makes you weak in the early game (2nd to 3rd turn) against Magus of the Moon and Wasteland.  Because they play such a high number of spells you need to counter early, such as Thorn of Amethyst, Sphere of Resistance, Magus of the Moon, large creatures, small creatures (namely Gorilla Shaman) if they have a Sword of Fire and Ice, etc., your mana base needs to be intact to adequately fight these cards or through these cards.  Again, I'm not trying to insult you, your team, your meta, or anything else about California magic in any way.  Please do not take offense to my comments.  I only make these comments because I've experienced these scenarios and know them to be commonplace. 

@ Aekhold - The best way to fight Oath is to never let them resolve the trigger.  Meddling Mage allows you to interact turn two with a static effect that has to be dealt with to move on.  Between Force of Will, Misdirection, and Meddling Mage, you should win out in the early game unless they're playing Platinum Oath and have Pacts or Explosives in hand.  To be honest, it has rarely mattered what creatures they bring in.  Once they resolve Oath's trigger, they're ahead of the game in any creature matchup as long as they playing legitimate Oath options.  If they do resolve the trigger, Swords to Plowshares is the most efficient answer as it costs one and can be played with a bounced land and be protected by Force and Misdirection.

[SonataOfTheCathedral]

I can't find the GAT matchup really winnable at all for Bomberman. You can tweak the hell out of it to crush Workshop, I know I have done that before. But a good GAT player can crush me in every way imaginable. Bombermans tempo plays are underwhelming for a beast like GAT. They have the better draw engine and more powerful spells to just stay ahead of all your plays. And Trinket Mage very often to get my Tormod's Crypt's and Aether Spellbombs, to set GAT back are just too little, too late.

[LotusHead]

Here is another URW Bomberman list that split 1st/2nd in 38 man tourney.  ETW is good, yes?

[unicoerner]

I lately started testing Bomberman, at first UWB, than UW and now UWR and i really like the ETW, but right now i am not sure if 2 of them is the right number.

The Tinker debate is very interesting and i think i will cut the Tinker+ ???, because DSC needs 2 rounds to win, which is often times too slow vs the modern aggro decks or most combos. Platz is possible, but is only really helpful vs Flash.
I even tried memory Jar, for the combo win, but this card is just bad ( Is hardcast able)

[wiley]

Platz is no longer good against flash, so freeing up the two slots might be for the best, but what would go in?  I would think some form of disruption like waste/strip or maybe stifle.

[Anusien]

I searched through the thread (and I used to follow it), and I have not seen a discussion of Bomerman WITH Gush.  I feel this is pretty strong, and I backed this up by splitting for 2nd at a local event.  Only 19 players, but it got me a fair amount of money.
Here are the thoughts:
#1) You can keep up with the Gush decks better.  You get all the tools they do (save maybe 1 Merchant Scroll), but you get a secondary engine in Trinket Mages
#2) You get the Salvagers combo, which can win a lot of games from a tight spot and give you more ways to race combo
#3) Can you imagine how sick GAT would be if you had Lotus every game?  That's Bomberman + Gush
#4) Reduce your reliance on Lotus/Salvagers kill
#5) Gush helps you hit 3 mana on turn 3 by replaying one of your two lands.

Basically, I feel like you get a better Gush matchup by adding Gush, and you keep a strong Stax and Ichorid matchup.  The cards we cut for this were some land and some draw spells (like TfK and Sensei's Divining Top) anyway.

[unicoerner]

What are you guys doing vs all these Gush Combo decks? I really think that i can win vs every deck, ok chances aren`t that good vs some, but most times theres really a way to solve the problems. I especially found it hard vs Control Combo variants, who play Mana Drain on their own. I am thinking about Arcane Denial atm, because it`s hard to remove and can kill lots of Combo decks.
My only problem is, that my sideboard slots are pretty short atm and it`s hard to cut some of them. Another option would be Mage on Gush, but they can play around that very well.

[Aekhold]

I lately started testing Bomberman, at first UWB, than UW and now UWR and i really like the ETW, but right now i am not sure if 2 of them is the right number.

I tried them and they were horrible to me. This is definately a meta specific card and should just be played in GAT heavy metas.
I dislike them because u dont want to hold back more than 1 Mox, and a Empty for 3 Spells is just bad. I think the effect EtW has is not worth the split to a third color which kills one of the most loved factores in Bomberman: Redundancey&Constance

i will cut the Tinker+ ???, because DSC needs 2 rounds to win

I really like the Control part of Bomberman and I'd never cut the tinker+DSC, Tinker is also Trinket Nr.5 for Combo Mode. In addition to this, DSC is absolutely one of my most favorite aggro staller/finishers.

@GushMan Debate:
Sure its more broken than Bomberman, buts its way to inconstant and i really dislike a combo deck which goes all in and cant finish in the same turn. Sure i didnt test this version very well, but at first i dont like GushBondage Engine and at Second, I just want constance with this deck, which it is designed for.

I dont have real troubles vs. GAT/GushStorm Decks, GAT is a good MU with my version and you can board down GushStorm, although if you mostly lose g1.

My Newest List for the Tourney Tomorrow:
// Lands
    4 Flooded Strand
    1 Polluted Delta
    4 Tundra
    3 Island
    1 Plains
    1 Library of Alexandria
    1 Tolarian Academy
(Any suggestions here?)

// Creatures
    3 Auriok Salvagers
    4 Trinket Mage
    1 Darksteel Colossus

// Spells
    1 Tinker
    4 Repeal (Meta specific, many Dreadnought.decks, this is really nuts vs. them and also good vs. ShopAggro's Spheres.)
    4 Thirst for Knowledge
    4 Brainstorm
    2 Misdirection
    4 Force of Will
    4 Mana Drain
    1 AEther Spellbomb
    1 Engineered Explosives
    1 Tormod's Crypt
    1 Time Walk
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Sensei's Divining Top
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Sol Ring
 // Sideboard
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 Energy Flux ( I just think its the best hate vs. Staxx/Mud/ShopAggro)
SB: 2 Disenchant (Maybe Seal of Cleansing? Does the instant have any improvements vs. the Enchantment? I think the opponent just plays around it. Mainly vs. Oath.)
SB: 2 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 2 Spell Snare (The superherocard. I really like them.
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Orim's Chant

[Anusien]

@GushMan Debate:
Sure its more broken than Bomberman, buts its way to inconstant and i really dislike a combo deck which goes all in and cant finish in the same turn. Sure i didnt test this version very well, but at first i dont like GushBondage Engine and at Second, I just want constance with this deck, which it is designed for.

Where does the idea come from that it is inconsistent or a combo deck that goes all in and can't finish?  I suppose if the average draws stay about the same and the nuts draws are significantly better, you're more inconsistent, but only in a good way.*
I'm not saying it's perfect (although I think it's mostly pure upgrade over Gushless Bomberman), but I don't think it's been given the consideration it deserves.  From your list I take some of the slower lands (Tolarian Academy, Plains, Library of Alexandria) and make off-color mana (so not more vulnerable to Wasteland) and I cut some of the slower/conditional maindeck cards (Repeal, Misdirection, Sensei's Divining Top, Thirst for Knowledge) for more disruption and draw.  I feel that it makes it more consistent.  With Gush, you only need 2 mana sources on turn 3 to play Bomberman, because you generally go turn 1 land, turn 2 land, turn 3 float UU, Gush, play Bomberman.  That play is much better than if you have Thirst for Knowledge there.

Versus the Gush combo decks, I think Black is the best option.  You get Duress and Extirpate, both of which are very good.

Edit: *Yes, you still mow people down with grey ogres.  It's just inconsistent in that sometimes you blow them away with Gush instead.  You want to increase consistency?  Cut Ancestral Recall.

[Aekhold]

My last tournament with Bomberman last week showed me some new facts:
-I tried out a configuration of 4 Force of Will/4 Mana Drain/2 Mana Leak.
I really found Mana Leak bad. Maybe it was because of strange meta, but I think the 2 Misdirections I played before were much better.
-Cunning Wish was really fine for me, I played 2 of them for BrainFreeze, 1 Misdirection, Orim's Chant, Disenchant, Fact or Fiction and Swords to Plowhares.

So, nothing really new.
But wait:
My view of the Draw in Bomberman has changed. Thirst for Knowledge is just really slow and often doesnt help if u're screwed or search a counter/solution and dont have an artifact in hand because of you have not drawn one or you had to put yours into play to get into play.
So I think of other possible draws-engines.

Second our local metagame was spammed with 1/5 of PainterServant.dec and also another Bomberman besides me who played 1 Painter's Servant and 1 Grindstone with Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, Imperial Seal.
I think he played an additional Enlightned Tutor which he told me he would not play again.
So, I think of a UWB Bomberman with Dark Confidant and Painter's Servant+Grindstone:

// Lands
    4  Flooded Strand
    2  Polluted Delta
    3  Tundra
    2  Island
    1  Tolarian Academy
    3  Underground Sea

// Creatures
    2  Auriok Salvagers
    4  Trinket Mage
    1  Painter's Servant
    4  Dark Confidant

// Spells
    4  Brainstorm
    4  Force of Will
    4  Mana Drain
    1  AEther Spellbomb
    1  Tormod's Crypt
    1  Time Walk
    1  Ancestral Recall
    1  Sensei's Divining Top
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mana Crypt
    1  Sol Ring
    1  Mystical Tutor
    3  Duress
    1  Demonic Tutor
    1  Grindstone
    1  Echoing Truth
    1  Engineered Explosives
    1  Imperial Seal

// Sideboard
SB: 3  Energy Flux
SB: 2  Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1  Pithing Needle
SB: 3  Orim's Chant
SB: 2  Seal of Cleansing
SB: 1  Yawgmoth's Will (Main to risky because its bad vs. fast decks, see natural dissynergy between it and the Combo)
SB: 3  Spell Snare

Another thing I would like to know if anyone has experiences with 3 Stifle and 1 Phyrexian  Dreadnought.
How did u use Stifle otherwise than ManaDenial.
Any Experiences with Tinker+Darksteel Colossus in the board or a Tinker MD and a DSC in the board? (New thing with PainterStone Combo main?)
Any Experiences with Bob you'd like to mention?
Maybe a list with Salvagers, Trinkets and a Dreadnought in UW?

@Anusien: I totally agree that Gush+Bond is better than Thirst for Knowledge, but GushMan does nothing better than pure Gush.decs or pure Bomberman. Sure it's not bad at all but I just think it's not the way a Gushdeck should finish.
I would NEVER cut Sensei's Devining Top in classis Bomberman, it's just a control-mirror winner, its just provides ultra-Card Quality by a semi Brainstorm and stops topdecking, which is pretty bad in the control-mirror, which I think Bomberman should be played as, Control.

Yes, you still mow people down with grey ogres.  It's just inconsistent in that sometimes you blow them away with Gush instead.  You want to increase consistency?  Cut Ancestral Recall.

I explained my point of view of playing Gush or Bomberman, not a mixed version of both.

[Anusien]

@Anusien: I totally agree that Gush+Bond is better than Thirst, but GushMan does nothing better than pure Gush.decs or pure Bomberman. Sure it's not bad at all but I just think it's not the way a Gushdeck should finish.
I would NEVER cut Sensei's Devining Top in classis Bomberman, it's just a control-mirror winner, its just provides ultra-Card Quality by a semi Brainstorm and stops topdecking, which is pretty bad in the control-mirror, which I think Bomberman should be played as, Control.

Yes, you still mow people down with grey ogres.  It's just inconsistent in that sometimes you blow them away with Gush instead.  You want to increase consistency?  Cut Ancestral Recall.

I explained my point of view of playing Gush or Bomberman, not a mixed version of both

Have you tested this, or is it sheer hypothesis?  I can tell you from testing that having Trinket Mages in a Gush deck is far better than having Tarmogoyfs, since your Trinket Mages make your Wills and Gushes and things better by finding Black Lotus.  You can say "it's not the way a Gushdeck should finish", but what is that based on?  If Gush into Oath of Druids is fine, why not Gush into Trinket Mage?  You've already said you hate TfK; I view Gush in this deck as a Thirst for Knowledge that is free, and helps you play Trinket Mage on turn 3 (turn 1 land, turn 2 land, turn 3 float mana, gush, replay land and trinket) instead of taking away from your drops.

Sensei's Divining Top is great and if I had room, I'd play it.  Then again, you're not going to win control matchups against Gush decks without Gush even with Top (testing bears this out), and I find it is easier to blow people out with Black Lotus.  Sensei's Divining Top was always my second or third trinket to fetch, even in classic Bomberman (Lotus was almost always first), and games rarely go long enough that I need to fetch two trinkets.

I certainly wouldn't cut Thirst for Knowledge for Painter's Servant + Grindstone.  Thirst is good because it gives you the gas you need to keep going to keep up with the more explosive decks.  I'd hate to be in a topdecking war and try to answer the other guy's Merchant Scroll -> Gush with Painter's Servant; that's begging to be blown out of the game with Fastbond.  The addition of at least Demonic Tutor is fine, but if you don't want Gushes (and I think the reasoning not to have them is quite silly: it's basically aesthetics) you want TfK.

[merfolkOTPT]

hey, I am jake hilty from that UWB build from earlier.

1 Aether Spellbomb 1 Black Lotus 1 Engineered Explosives 1 Lotus Petal 1 Mana Crypt 1 Mox Emerald 1 Mox Jet 1 Mox Pearl 1 Mox Ruby 1 Mox Sapphire 1 Phyrexian Dreadnought 1 Sensei's Divining Top 1 Sol Ring 4 Dark Confidant 1 Demonic Tutor 3 Duress 1 Vampiric Tutor 1 Ancestral Recall 4 Brainstorm 1 Cunning Wish 1 Echoing Truth 4 Force of Will 3 Stifle 1 Time Walk 3 Trinket Mage 3 Auriok Salvagers 3 Aven Mindcensor Lands (14): 1 Ancient Tomb 3 Flooded Strand 1 Island 1 Plains 3 Polluted Delta 1 Swamp 2 Tundra 2 Underground Sea 1 Aether Spellbomb 1 Echoing Truth 2 Exalted Angel 4 Leyline of the Void 1 Pithing Needle 1 Rebuild 2 Serenity 3 Swords to Plowshares

Honestly i felt like I had pretty solid game against GAT at the tournament unless they had a ridiculously broken start.  If I were to play the deck now though I think i would change some things.  1. The sideboard has to be totally retooled.  2. Cut the three mindcensor for +1 Dreadnought, +1 Trinket Mage, +1 Engineered Explosives.  3.  This is the most important I would cut two lands for 2 basic lands island and plains. 

The biggest problem for this deck was getting mauled by red things with Magus of the Moon and spheres.  The sideboard changes would reflect this. 

I haven't tested this against Oath Gush or Painter's servant yet so is it really worth trying to put it back together I don't know but if people are interested, PM me.

[Aekhold]

This sunday, our local tourney will be held up again.
The last metagame was:
1/5 Staxx
1/5 Painter-Combo
1/5 ComboControl like DrainTendrils, GushStorm
Some Fish,Sligh&Gobs
Some Oath
2-3 (nearly nothing) Fastcombo decks (1 Belcher, 1 Flash, 1 Grimlong)

Now I really have a problem of choosing the ''right'' Bomberman version for the next tourney.
First, the combination of colors is a matter:
UW
UWB
URWB
I'd like UW or UWB because of the huge amount of staxx, but UWB can play Dark Confidant, so it's also an option.

Second, the alternative plan:
Painter's Servant + Grindstone (with tutors for it? just 1/1 2/1 3/1?)
3 Stifle+1 Phyrexian Dreadnought?
Tinker+Darksteel Colossus?
Tinker+Darksteel Colossus+Painter's Servant+Grindstone (Which tutors besides Tinker?)

Anyone of you has experiences with the NewCombo in Bomberman-like-builds?
Can u give any tips of estimating a meta change? (I heard of a system where you give the Decks in the Meta points to estimate.)

Greets,
Aekhold

[Anusien]

I just split a piece of power with Kevin Cron while playing Bomberman on Saturday in the new metagame.  On the way I stomped Goblins over ad over again.  From what I understand, the metagame looks like this:
CS, Ichorid, Goblins, UW Fish, Stax, Grim Long as definite decks
Trinket-Painter, Oath, and Intuition-AK Control decks of some sort as decks that are likely contenders but that have not really seen play yet.

I feel very good about matchups against Ichorid, Goblins, Stax and the Control decks (CS, Painter, Intuition-AK).  You need more help with Grim Long, UW Fish (haven't tested post some radical changes to the deck) and Oath.  It seems like most metagames right now are tons of Ichorid, Stax and aggressive decks, with some control decks in varying degrees of tuning.  I don't think the format has settled enough for a Fish deck to prey on it, and the Shop decks I saw all were ready with Jester's Cap and Spawning Pit for Oath decks.

I beat down and comboed off each about 50% of my matches.

// Lands
    4 Flooded Strand
    3 Island
    1 Library of Alexandria
    1 Plains
    1 Strip Mine
    1 Tolaria West
    1 Tolarian Academy
    4 Tundra

// Creatures
    3 Auriok Salvagers
    3 Aven Mindcensor
    4 Trinket Mage
    1 Darksteel Colossus

// Spells
    1 AEther Spellbomb
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Brainstorm
    1 Echoing Truth
    1 Engineered Explosives
    4 Force of Will
    4 Mana Drain
    1 Merchant Scroll
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Ponder
    1 Sensei's Divining Top
    1 Sol Ring
    4 Thirst for Knowledge
    1 Time Walk
    1 Tormod's Crypt
    2 Mana Leak
    1 Tinker

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Darksteel Colossus
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 Energy Flux
SB: 2 Exalted Angel
SB: 4 Honor the Fallen
SB: 1 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 2 Wrath of God
SB: 1 Chalice of the Void

If you see a lot of combo decks, I'd turn the SB Darksteel Colossus into a second anti-combo slot.

So why Salvagers combo over Grindstone combo?  You could easily go -3 Salvagers -1 Aether Spellbomb +3 Painter's Servant +1 Grindstone and have basically the same deck, but with a "better" combo.  I don't like it for a few reasons:
#1: Salvagers beats down much better than Painter's Servant and doesn't die to Ancient Grudge, both of which are extremely relevant in some matchups like Goblins/RG or even against Fish (a 2/4 is a biiiiig problem for them).
#2: You don't combo out as easily.  When playing Bomberman, my first Trinket Mage is almost always for Black Lotus.  In order to combo with Salvagers, now you basically just need to find a Salvagers.  If you go to Grindstone combo instead, your first Trinket is generally going to go for Black Lotus anyway, which means it takes a second Trinket Mage to win.  It is much harder to pay for Painter's Servant + Grindstone + activation if you don't have as easy access to Black Lotus.

Plus occasionally you just get there winning small via Salvagers recurring EE, Crypt or Aether Spellbomb, or whatever you pitch to Thirst for Knowledge.

Edit: Is there interest in a primer of sorts, or do people feel like all the information they need is in this thread?