Lets discuss Bomberman today

[squeegee]

again, like i said, i dont think top is bad, its just not for me.  although i would consider it if i decided to drop red.  i think that the biggest advantage to running top would be that you can find salvagers faster?? is that wrong??  that seems to be the hardest thing for me to find, but i dont really need it to win.  its just really nice to find.

ok, so on a different note, has anyone ever considered running green for the creature tutoring???  then also opens you up to other hate cards in green.  i dont know, just a thought.

Squeegee, this is a verbal warning that should have been issued days ago. Please refer to site rule #1, specifically section #2 but others should be noted as well. Basically, you need to use these forums to type clearer, more grammatically correct posts. Normally, our process is to clean these posts up or force you to. I'd encourage you to make your posts more readable, but this is a warning not to type like this anymore on this site. We can't expect everyone to have absolutely perfect grammar in every post, but there should be an obvious effort to do the best with readability. Thank you.

For reference, the rule can be found here.

-Zherbus

[Anusien]

I have to admit, I like Top in the deck at least in my preliminary testing.  It always felt to me like a Brainstorm or Thirst for Knowledge that Trinket Mage can fetch. In a lot of matchups you do not immediately have the need for one of your other trinkets (the mirror and combo matchups can both be this way).  In many ways, Top acts like a placeholder; you put a beater on the table but get to keep your options open.

No, I wouldn't run green for creature tutoring.  I'd rather just play more creatures.  I only see the Red and Black splash as potentially viable, and neither of them are that amazing in the current metagame.

[LotusHead]

  i think that the biggest advantage to running top would be that you can find salvagers faster?? is that wrong??  that seems to be the hardest thing for me to find, but i dont really need it to win.  its just really nice to find.

If Bomberman was that concerned about finding Salvagers, then Bomberman would play 4 Salvagers always.  Think of Sensei's Divining Top as Bomberman #4.  And yes, it does find Salvager, just like it finds the other 56 cards in the deck.

[Dxfiler]

I'm surprised top is this big of an issue.

I don't personally play bomberman but I play against it more than a normal human being should, and I can safely say it's insane in the deck.  I always felt bomberman would be optimal under a counterbalance type design to fully abuse trinket mage/top, but even under normal builds top is great.  With fetches it's almost a constant brainstorm.

It has pulled out many wins against me in testing when I had the game under control.  Top can get you there when you need to get there.  If bomberman didn't have so many draw and shuffle effects plus trinket mage, it'd be crap, but in this deck it is pure gold.

- Dave Feinstein

[squeegee]

LotusHead, I agree.  I wasn't trying to imply that Salvagers is a must have for the deck, just that there are other was to find the rest of the cards.  I only run two Salvagers, with GAA4 in place of the 3rd.  I guess i prefer to run a more controlled game with Bomberman, having lost many a game to overextending.

I am also thinking that the time for me running red could be over.  It is just really hard for me to cut REB.

[SonataOfTheCathedral]

I swear by Sensei's Divining Top, based on the fact it makes best use of your surplus of mana, providing you the tools you need to select the necessary cards to control the game. When Gifts was a dominant force one of the few reasons I would ever beat it was with Sensei's Divining Top.

On the Cunning Wish issue: I'm probably the only person that even looks at the card with any value, I find it to be the end all issue, seems when I resolve it for an answer I usually win, Cunning Wishing for Misdirection is huge in my opinion considering the juicy target is Ancestral and that usually comes up after a Merchant Scroll. Usually by then I can have the mana to Cunning Wish for MisD, and of course it provides all the outs I need. When I was playing against Jeremy Seroogy running Stax, whenever I played that card all the he responded with was "I can't win when that card resolves" I find it that much better than playing maindeck Misdirections and other cute tricks.

On Wrath Of God: A lot of people disagreed with me here, just because its an out of place card for Vintage. I figured since the Bomberman mirror has become so random with cards like Serra Avenger, and Jotun Grunt becoming factors, might as well become the control deck, let all their slow plotted creatures resolve, wipe the board and then take control.

Mana Leak is still the nuts for me, but others disagree. The fact that deck plays so differnetly than any deck in Vintage gives you plenty of opportunity to experiment with mana intensive cards like Arbiter, Teferi, Wrath Of God, FTK, Decree Of Justice, you catch my drift.

One thing I hate and will probably never play again is TinkerColossus in the deck. It was just awful.

[bebe]

Well I decided to indeed test the Top and Chalice main deck and really liked how they fit in. I will echo Mons sentiments - a full suite of Brainstorms makes the deck run smoothly. I am aware that the deck is pedicated to find the toolbox answer to any major threat and certanly space is an issue. Te deck is pretty tight on space so do we remove one to fit Needle main?  Do we relegate the Arbiter to the side instead? I do not think there is a definitive answer. There are more then enough shuffle effects here to make use of both Top and Brainstorm. I relegated the Needle to the side for now and will certainly consider WoGs and StPs as possible sideboard inclusions although I feel the spots are best served with other cards for now.
On Tinker/Colossus - this was never a plan. I had considered only Tinker/Plat which can be a very nasty surprise for many decks.
Well, I edited the initial post to reflect my current list. I feel its a solid base that anyone can tweak to their preference and meta. I am sure of a few things - I do not like black or red in the deck.

[Wagner]

I have played Bomberman for as long as the deck existed, here are my 2 cents:

Top is a personnal choice, I tried it and thought that it only takes up a slot for nothing, usually I don't need to change my top decks that often and Brainstorms are enough for this, also, I would never fetch it with Trinket, I would rather fetch a Spellbomb and bounce Trinket if I need a silver bullet. But it al depends on how you play the deck since it can take a few different directions. Also, and that is mainly with I didn't like it, 2 of the worst cards against Bomberman are Chalice for 1 and Null Rod, and Top interacts pretty bad with any of them on board. So when in a situation when I'm digging for answers because there is a Rod on board, which can happen prerry often, I would rather not have a so-so artifact in my deck.

On the Needle, I don't play it either, not even in Sideboard, in the present metagame, the only useful target I can see for it is Bazaar, and I would probably rather have a crypt than a Needle in that situation. Other than that, Welder is nowhere to be seen and naming Waste/Mishra is not that good of a play.

I recently cut the Meddling Mages to run 3 Maindeck Mindsencor.

Here is my current decklist
3 Salvagers
4 Trinket
3 Mindsencor
2 Grunts

4 Thirsts
4 Brainstorm
4 Drains
4 FOW
2 Leaks
1 Recall
1 Time Walk

1 EE
2 Aether Bombs
1 Tormods
5 Moxen
1 Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring

4 Tundra
4 Islands
1 Plain
1 Strip Mine
5 Fetches

1 Random Slot, usualy Disenchant or STP or MisD.

The sideboard in variable depending of the meta but usually looks like

2-3 Orim's Chants
3 Honor the Fallen
2 Disenchant
2 Kami of the Ancient Law
2 Energy Flux
3 Leylines
2-3 STP

More later, GF needs to go shopping.

[slyfer]

Excuse me Wagner.....
3 leyline of the void in sideboard??? to me it's nonsense....you should play 4-of or something else.

Null rod isn't played anymore at the moment. Chalice of the void is the only issue. How can this deck react to a chalice@0 ? I personally cannot find room for repeal, which is a huge card
Icorid can play chalice at 0, shutting off the tutorable tormod (a part from the fact that tutoring tormod could be too late, with the faster modern version of icorid).
Are you sure the honor the fallen is ok? Icorid bombs you with cabal therapy...

in the random 1 slot I would play the sensei-top, because it partially fixes one weakness of the deck that is the lack of fast tutors (demonic, mistical, N-merchant scroll is the modern technology of tutoring).

[wethepeople]

Null rod isn't played anymore at the moment. Chalice of the void is the only issue. How can this deck react to a chalice@0 ?

You can Scroll up some bounce (generally Echoing Truth), or lay Engineered Explosives with 0 counters on it.

[squeegee]

I agree with wethepeople. 

Chalice is usually just a hinderance, where as Null Rod wrecks your face.  Null Rod is pretty much the reason I include Echoing Truth, even though E-truth is handy in other matchups as well.

[T00L]

Honor the fallen seems fine as a way to slow down ichorid. I mean if they are therapying you for honor the fallen i mean i guess they got you.

[Anusien]

Well you have all the normal draws to wreck Ichorid, plus the potential to go Land, Mox, Honor.  Even with Narcomeoba, they can't always turn 1 Therapy you.  It seems better than Leyline of the Void; that is very much an all or nothing card.

[slyfer]

Ah but not all the lists use merchant scroll... it depends if your hand is mox heavy or not by the way.
Chalice@stops the combo but we can still go aggro. The problem is to stabilize mana, I mean have 3/4 lands in play.

Do you guys think this deck suffers extirpate so much? I don't think so, but someone think it, maybe because he discarded some guys to thirst and they go extirpated
Someone is saying that there is a waste of resources, the draw engine (brainstorm-thirst) is card disadvantage, and opponent combo-outplay them when they have few cards in hand.
What do you think?

[Wagner]

Chalice at 0 is not that big of a problem, you still have all your draw to control the game or you can simply Trinket Mage the EE and cast it with Drain Mana, Strip or Sol Ring. Chalice for 1 sometimes more problematic since it stops the Bombs + Brainstorm and might slow you down too much.

Around here Null Rod isn't played that much, but it still wreaks you.

As it has been said, if Ichorid names Honor the Fallen with a turn 1-2 Therapy with Chalice for 0 in play (otherwise I see no reason of not naming Trinket Mage) well, they probably got you, or any other deck that has a sideboard card that isn't Crypt. But I don't think the Leylines are absolutely necessary, after all the deck has already 4 tutors for 1 or more crypts + Grunt main, + STP in side.

As for Top, I would rather play a maindeck Disenchant/ETruth or even a Merchant Scroll before playing Top, the deck is redundant enough not to need to be tutoring responses.

Others point that I did not have time to discuss earlier:

I recently cut LoA since the metagame had become faster and Gift/Slaver are getting really rare. With a maximum of 1 Control Mirror per tournament, I would rather have a different mana source instead, which brings me to my next point:

Mana Crypt, I had cut it a few months ago because I lost too many matches playing against Fish/Slaver and losing to my Crypt, but with maindeck Mindsensor and a faster metagame, I think it deserves to get back on the list, but, be aware that you will lose 1 game in each 7-8 rounds because of Crypt. And yes I know, to avoid losing if you think the game could drag, it is better to not play it 1st turn, but when you can play a 1 turn MindSensor or Trinket, there is no reason to hold it back.

I tried including a Hallowed fountain in case of too many Extirpates, I think the deck can easily support another non-basic land, but if you don't think Extirpate will be played a lot, don't bother, actually now that the fad is gone, I would'nt try them anymore.

With the recent inclusion of Grunt and Mindsencor and since the Sideboard is mostly white, I have included 1 basic plains in the deck, which had me run 4 Flooded Strand and 1 Delta instead of 3-2.

Old man of the Sea and Vedalken Shackles are both excellent sideboard options against Fish decks. Yes Shackles doesn't work with Null Rod that Fish deck run but they can't be sworded, each one has its advantage.

There is usually a Chalice on my sideboard when I see a lot of combo on the field.

Nothing more I can think of for now.

[T00L]

Brassman's reasoning for not running mana crypt in bomberman was that you can easily race your crypt.

[Phele]

I like a mix of Merchant Scrolls and Thirsts, like 3/3 or 3/2. It leaves you with a pretty solid draw engine and gives you flexibility. Even though Merchant Scroll might be a bigger mana investment after already going for Ancestral it's a guarenteed counter, extra draw, solution. That might make the difference in many cases.

With a few Merchant Scrolls maindeck I always also played a single Cuning Wish in the maindeck with at least one general bounce and Brain Freeze in the board. It gives you so many more outs when you already have Salvagers and Lotus online and works pretty good as a flexible tool, as I play 6 pitch counters and found myself many times in a position after pitching that I could go for a before removed Thirst, Brainstorm, counter ... As many people already play many instants as sideboard options (Hurkyl, Rebuild, Honor the Fallen, Swords, Disenchant, Echoing Truth..) I don't see a strong reason for not playing one Wish. You could also easily play Chalice One yourself without cutting you off from the combo possibility. With Wish there is also no need to play a second Spellbomb.

Mana Crypt: I totally agree with adding it to the maindeck in the moment. As painful it might be from time to time, against Decks like Flash, GAT, Ichorid you must extend your possibilities to play Mindcensor, Trinket, Thirst ... as quick as possible. I also finde it pretty usefull sometimes to give me the extra quickness against staxx for example. I usually just found it pretty bad against Fish and straight Aggro builds. But anyway: For that reasoning I also play Tolarian Academy. I count around 12 or 13 cheap artifacts maindeck, so I take the mana boost it provides even though my manabase gets more vulnerable. But with the rise of GAT I do see Fish on a decline anyway so the only reason you have to worry about your manabase is Staxx in the moment.

I played Grunts maindeck for a while as well and the served me pretty great. You got a decent beater, a good way to disturb some graveyard strategies and a nice way to get Scroll + Anc online again. But this was in a time where Long and Gifts were strong. They got at least disturbed by filtering their graveyards from cheap mana. But Flash for example doesnt care much about Grunt as does GAT just a bit. It works quite ok against Ichorid but I'm not sure, if this is enough reasoning for its inclusion. Anyway: I always like how much it improves your aggro route. Grunt + Trinket is usually game over in three turns.

[slyfer]

I am testing some changes at the moment.
First is -4 thirst +4 accumulated knowledge (ak). The reason that let me think about this change was the following:
1) Even if the deck has an optimized thirst, it's not guaranteed we discard an artifact. I case of miss, thirst is just a bad drawer (3 mana to draw 3 discard 2 = no card advantage).
2) it's a bad topdeck, because of card disadvantage
3) it's bad to discard 2 cards, and sometimes also a key artifact... Ok, we can recover it by auriok, but it's too slow.
Example: when you desperately search for esplosives to blow tokens...it's just too slow to make auriok (sorcery) + 1W + 2 mana.
4) ak for 2, it's like a hit-thirst, but with 1 less mana (+1 card advantage). Ak for 3 and 4 are just cheap bombs.

I personally don't find space for intuition, which is a nice card to include with ak and the rest.... For now I am ok with just replacing thirst.

The other card I'm testing, and it's working ok, it's spell snare, in place of jotun grunt.
cc2 spell are now abused with: merchant, flash, confidant, driad, drain, oath, jotun, dangerous creature like piledriver, meddling, ecc...
I think it's a metagame call.

Together with ak, you can better play 3 mana spell or avoid being drained for 3/4....

[Phele]

I do indeed like the draw and search engine AK with Intuition could provide. But doesn't leave you that even more vulnerable to graveyard hate? I do know the problem Thirst can sometimes provide without having an artifact. I always try to play my artifacts pretty carefully to keep some feed for thirst. And as I mentioned before, I don't like to play the full package of Thirsts.

[zeus-online]

Intu/AK is waaay too risky right now, imo....We've got leylines and crypts in every sideboard, some play with extirpate, mindcensor is everywhere.....But other than that i love that engine 

/Zeus

[slyfer]

I meant ak only 
no intuition.
Ak for 2 is better that a thirst+artifact (2 mana, +1 card), ak3 and 4 are bombs.
They bring leyline, I go for aggro route, we shouldn't autoscoop. 
Discarding an extra salvager to thirst and being extirpated is frustating 

I'm throwing this idea because the mana curve is a bit "overloaded" at 3 (4 trinket 3 mindcestor 4 thirst).... and the deck goes someway faster with ak (land mox ...ak 1 cicle, instead you must wait 3 mana to cast what? tap out for trinket?? drain open?)

There is indeed room for 2 merchant 1 mystical tutor maindeck (to find faster ancestral or counter or ak).
Post side we have bounces or disenchant.

Another option is 3 repeal maindeck (cutting mana leak and say 1 grunt for example). In this way you should have a very good post side icorid match up (eot repeal chalice then trinket for tormod, or honor the fallen)

As regard flash, I should aware people that sliver finishers is immune to tormod. Some ideas? I don't like leyline in this deck

Lastly....Samurai of the pale curtain is too slow for icorid+flash match up? 

[Addolorisi]

I think if you're that concerned with shaving an extra mana off your draw spells, you're probably playing the deck rather aggressively. If your build is cutting counters for guys, then by all means go ahead and run AKs. But just make sure you're not playing a control build too aggressively - control doesn't generally need to worry about an overloaded curve (assuming there are a fair number of instants at the "overloaded" spot) because it can generally cast draw spells at its leisure either off Drain, or at the opponent's end step when he's tapped down.

Another issue I think you may be glossing over is that you're looking at it in terms of simple card advantage. Yes, the second AK is the same card advantage as a Thirst (if you ignore the -1 from the first TfK vs. AK, which I think is a mistake as well) but it's also digging down an extra card. In a format packed with as many bombs as have been printed, it's easy to sometimes forget the power of card selection.

Even with games lasting more turns post-announcement, the fundamental turn is still around 1.5-2 (though I'm sure there's room for debate in there), and you have to really think hard about cards that don't really do anything until the second time you cast them and don't get particularly good until the third. I realize that this could be perceived as a strike against TfK as well since it weighs in at 3 mana. But it simply means you need a suitable number of cards to prevent you from entering scoop mode in the first few turns, and AK doesn't help in this situation - it just sits in the same boat with TfK while not being playable until after you've spent 2 mana to cycle one.

Another issue (the most readily identifiable one) is graveyard hate. Sure it sucks to pitch your Salvagers to TfK and have them Extirpated, but having AKs Extirpated doesn't seem like a real walk in the park either. You have to be particularly sensitive to this one because GY hate is so omnipresent, and because it coincidentally also manages to stop the combo aspect of your deck.

If the AKs work for you, then great. But I really think you need to keep in mind the myriad drawbacks associated with the card.

[squeegee]

I think that I must agree with Addolorisi on the AK vs. TfK issue. 

You have to get those quality cards in the first couple spells.  That is way more important than having an extra couple cards on your 3rd and 4th draw spell.

Just my opinion.

[T00L]

So i'm just curious as to what people think of the bomberman mirror. What kinds of cards would you bring in and take out? What do you think is important in postboard games? Also what do people think of a 3 color and what do you think it should be and why and for what cards?

[Implacable]

I think that I must agree with Addolorisi on the AK vs. TfK issue. 

You have to get those quality cards in the first couple spells.  That is way more important than having an extra couple cards on your 3rd and 4th draw spell.

Just my opinion.

The one thing that I'm curious about is this: a lot of Bomberman decks are moving towards playing with Black for Duress, Leyline, and even Bob.  If you added Black, would you replace TFKs with Nights Whispers?

[Wagner]

Also what do people think of a 3 color and what do you think it should be and why and for what cards?

Around here there is a deck called BOBerman that plays 4 Confidants, 3-4 Cutpurses, 3-4 Dureses instead of Drains and Thirts. The deck is a lot less control and relies very little on the combo, but it still runs 2 Salvagers + all the Trinket toolbox. IT has a great matchup against combo and can race the more aggro decks, but it has an horrible matchup against the original Bomberman. I haven't seen the deck since Future Sight, so I don'T know in some Mindsencors would be included, but I don'T see why not.

So i'm just curious as to what people think of the bomberman mirror. What kinds of cards would you bring in and take out? What do you think is important in postboard games?

The Bomberman mirror, as most mirrors is pretty random. I played it pretty often and I must say that the person that knows the deck best will win, in case of a tie, the person that resolves the most Thirts will win. As with most control mirrors, the idea is pretty simple, resolve a Drain and stop your opponent from resolving one. When MEddling Mage was widely played, you could try to say Drain or Force with a Meddling when you had a counter light hand and go the aggro route, or say Salvagers when you have a control heavy hand to stop your opponent from sneaking a fast kill. Now with Mindsencor I must say that I have no idea what the Mirror would look like since I haven't played it yet. But I would side in as many STP as I could in a mirror.

I also agree on the AK VS TFK issue. If you want to be playing AK, then you must run Intuition which can also fetch you all 3 cards for the combo and can act as a Trinket MAge when Salvager is on the Board, or can fetch 3 Salvagers, but you become far more vulnerable to Graveyard hate and a lot less able to deal with aggro decks sonce I can'T see what to cut else that creatures to put in Intuitions.

As regard flash, I should aware people that sliver finishers is immune to tormod. Some ideas? I don't like leyline in this deck

Lastly....Samurai of the pale curtain is too slow for icorid+flash match up?

For Falsh with Slivers, your should be able to block or Sword 2 Slivers and try to come back, EE for 1 also works great.

Samurai is great against Ichordis, I don'T think that it is too slow since it can be cast on 2nd turn and Ichorid will never name it with a 1st Therapy. But I would rather play Honor the Fallen or another Tormod's Crypt. I also don't like Leyline, but I am currently testing the BLue Leyline which can be pitch to FoW and cats much more easily and does a very similar job against Flash and Ichorid.

[squeegee]

As far as adding black goes, that is a totally different deck, and is played as such.

I haven't playtested it, but I would think that Nights Whisper would be a little more damage than this deck wants to take.  Especially with Bob running the show.  I know that you will run Top, but for the games that you dont find top, you don't really want to reveal Whisper, and then play it, losing a total of four life.

Maybe Bob-Bomberman is aggro enough to take the loss of life, but I would think probably not.  Especially when Bomberman is not a good matchup for it.

[cheddercaveman]

What is everyone's opinion of Misdirection?  Would we be better off with a different counterspell in this place, something like stifle, trickbind, mana leak, remand, delay, etc etc?  Or is it just good enough that we should be playing 1-2 of them in the main?  From reading it sounds like there are some mixed reactions on whether the card is warranted.  Sure, its nice to point that ancestral at yourself, and it might be good as the occassional FoW 5-6 but its also costing is a blue card.  Seems like there is some room for debate here, so lets have at it

[T00L]

my counter config is 4 FOW 3 Drain 3 Leak currently i'm really liking it

[Wagner]

I would not go under 4 Drains since the deck costs so much colorless, I run 4 Drains and 2 Leaks.

As for MisD, you don't have big enough bombs that you want to protect with a Misd if they counter, and except in a counter war, which happens less often these days, they are not really that good. Sure you may steal a random Ancestral sometimes, but it is the only Spell I can think of that is really worth Misdirectionning instead of countering with a Leak or even Spell Snare. When Gits was played a lot, it could be worth maindecking, now, unless you expect your meta to be 30% Gro, I wouldn't even bother putting them in the side. And even then against Gro I think I would rather have another Spellbomb or a maindeck STP.

Conclusion, not worth it, many other better cards.