Lets discuss Bomberman today

[SonataOfTheCathedral]

The Bomberman mirror comes down to simple things. Cards that generate an overwhelming amount of card advantage. Most notably, Control Magic, FTK, and Wrath Of God.

Take your pic. I like them all personally.

[Wagner]

Against any deck but Fish I would rather have a Vedalken Shackles before a control Magig, but with Gro on the Rise, Control Magic may be potent, but then again I would rather have a Gilded Drake that has a good synergy with Spellbombs.

As for Wrath of God, I cannot see why anyone would like to have this in a sideboard since the only decks that will allow you to cast a 4 mana spell with WW are control that don't have a lot of creatures, also, tappping 4 mana for a sorcery that might be Drained when a STP would probably do the same job seems a bad idea.

I have played the mirror a lot, usually the first to Drain a spell of 3CC or resolving a Trinket and untap with Lotus still in play has good chances of winning, but sometimes you can just cast an early Salvagers with Force backup and go all the way with it. The player that knows the deck best will probably win, knowing what to counter and when to let some things resolve.

[squeegee]

Ok, a lot to say in this one so here goes.

I have played Mis-D before but I ended up cutting it a couple weeks after putting it in.  It was usually a dead card in hand that got discarded to a bad TFK.

As far as counter package, I run red, so it is: 4 FOW, 4 Drain, 2 Leak, and 1 REB with 2 REB in the board.

The bomberman mirror is largely based on luck assuming both players know the deck.  If only one person gets library, they should win like 90%.  Also depends on the board a lot.  If one player has Exalted and the other doesn't, that is a big advantage.  Also, I don't have STP in board, so it makes the bomberman match a little worse.  Overall though, the better player will win.

[slyfer]

Is it possible to maindeck 3 meddling mage together with 3 auriok 3 aven mindcensor 4 trinket mage?
We would add more strong combo hooser cards...  and stay UW for consistency

[squeegee]

Many people have played Meddling Mage in Bomberman.  I personally have never been a fan of the card, and it is hard to find things to take out.  I guess try it and let us know how it works. 

Also, since I play red, I don't have as many spots where I can put MM in.  Probably the main disadvantage is that combo runs all kinds of bounce now a days for the lock type decks.

[Midknight]

I have never been personly sold on Merchant Scroll, the problem is its a sorcery. Without running cards like Gush, Flash, or AKs, it limits your tutor targets. The deck is already running enough sorcery speed cards. Reacting to your opts spells is much better, than letting them react to yours. I understand you can get bounce, draw, or countermagic with it.

Example, if you get Force of Will, your basicly giving up two mana at sorcery speed and maybe two cards. This seem unexceptible.

Another example, if you get Ancestral Recall. Your paying 3 mana to draw 3 cards, with two of the mana, at sorcery speed. In this instance, its alittle better than a Thrist for Knowledge.

Aven Mindsencor is the nuts in this deck, I know it was, before people started playing it. I didn't know what to cut for them. I ended up cutting my Mana Leaks for them.

The deck should be running 4 Thrist for Knowledge and a higher count of 3 Spellbombs. Most of the versions are down to one Spellbomb and 2 Thrist. The tricks you can do with them, to save your creatures, research with Trinketmage, and also deal with opt creatures. This card is never a dead card. You also use it to combo off, sac to draw a card, or also pitches to Thirst. If any deck can abuse Thirst, its this one.

Because almost every blue base deck is running Ak, doesn't mean its best for this deck. Don't get me wrong, its a really strong card. I feel this deck can abuse, Thrist much more than AK.

With my playstyle, I almost want to add some extra counters, the Mana Leaks. They are better than people give them credit for. I found troubles, in trying to fit all the cards I want in this deck. It got alot harder with the addition of Mindsencor but its so good, and its a instant.

[squeegee]

Well, I don't totally agree with your Merchant Scroll theory.  I really like it because if your opponent gets one or more null rods on the board, you HAVE to get E. Truth to combo out, and usually just to win.

I do agree as I have said that AK isn't right.

I'm not sure on the spellbomb count though.  I run two, Aether and Pyrite(because I run red).  It seems that more than that just get in the way.  I would definately rather keep in a counter spell than run another spellbomb.

[Midknight]

Well, I don't totally agree with your Merchant Scroll theory.  I really like it because if your opponent gets one or more null rods on the board, you HAVE to get E. Truth to combo out, and usually just to win.

I agree, Echoing Truth is very important, but only because of Null Rod. The tool box, can handle most of the other problems. These take care of most problems, Explostives, Spellbomb, and Crypt. But once Null Rod hits the board, it does cripple all of the artifacts.

I tested both Merchant Scroll and Cunning Wish. I have like the wish so much better. Maybe its just my style of play, and perfer instants over sorceries.

[squeegee]

I do understand the power of Cunning Wish, it just really doesn't fit my playstyle, and it does cost one more mana.  I have played several decks with different wishes in them, and they just don't do much for me.  I guess I like having the option of drawing the tutor OR the spell.  Not just one.

[bleakill]

Not meaning to perhaps drive this thread into a different direction, but anyway, is it justified to play the UW version in the current GAT/Flash meta (with Fish and combo being played to lesser extend)?

[slyfer]

I saw the list that top8ed at last SCG Ronakoe event had black splash for demonic tutor and will maindeck, and duress in board.
He cut thirst for knowledge, playing i think only 2 to find room for these cards.
At the same time we had a bomberman list that toped in a big italian event (>100 people) that played meddling mage in the side (it was UW, a bit more slowly controllish that combo, with only 2 salvagers and 1x toolbox, and with 2 cunning wish, extra space gained was occupied by merchant scroll and misdirection).

I think that now meddling mage is coming back as a strong card. Just some months ago it was very weak, because for example the storm deck introduced cabal ritual and grim tutor, and it was absolutely not easy to name correctly (versus the time TPS used only dark ritual).
If the metagame is focused on deck that are buildt around few key cards, meddling mage is stronger.
GAT -> quirion dryad / merchant scroll / gush (I would call dryad first, trying to crypt their graveyard away with the first trinket nullifing tog)
Flash -> obv
Oath tyrant / ICBM -> obv
Storm deck -> hmm I dont know if Pitch long is played anymore in USA (that deck with 4 fow 3 misdirection)... are americans shifting towards "4x duress only + street wraith UB tendrils storm" or "merchant scroll TPS" ??!?! Menendian Long 5-c deck with gold land is played?

versus some deck you call sword to plowshare or null nod (still played?!) or chalice and they cannot stop you combo.
So my answer is that UW is viable even without black power in the current meta.

[squeegee]

I havent been able to play in any tournaments as of late, but playing on mws I haven't had too much of a problem with Flash.  GAT can be troublesome, but definately not an auto lose. 

Goblins actually tend to be a difficult match, at least from what I have seen.  But if you get past the initial onslaught, you can stabilize.

[SonataOfTheCathedral]

I'm starting to think Bomberman's power is going to wind down very quickly. I haven't been able to win the tempo race ever with GAT unless I squeek an early Mindscensor into play, otherwise all of GAT's plays are more powerful and well actually very overwhelming for Bomberman. The deck might need a major overhaul involving more tempo cards like a higher Aether Spellbomb count, possibly cards like Repeal even to stay in a tempo war. Any ideas on this?

Vs. Flash. I feel this match is a bit better and I feel many Bomberman players would agree, they do win randomly and you have to d'oh it away, but that's why Flash is understood as a great deck, it just randomly wins no matter what your playing. But if you play cards like Mana Leak they give you more opportunities for early game defense, I just don't like the fact the Trinket Mage targets aren't very good against Flash, Aether Spellbomb is the only mediocore one as it buys you a turn. For some reason I have a mental image of there being a good target but it's not clicking.

Vs. Goblins. If goblins manages to launch itself as a contender in this metagame, Bomberman will have to send it packing. Bomberman can't go broken very easily and is a bit less reliable in goldfishing combo style than GAT. Keep in mind Gobbos will have Pyrokenesis postboard with REBS which are just a slaughter for any defenses you may try and build up in the early game. I personally tryed the match on both sides and just can't see it being favorable. Stopping a Lackey turn one is very difficult as well to make matters worse.

I think drafting up some more "tempo" oriented Bomberman lists would be a good starting point to further develop it. Bomberman did make a decent performance at Stratford but none made the later top 16 rounds except for one. It would be great for those Bomberman players to chime in and report their matches. I was personally blown out with Bomberman day one in both the main and side event, it motivated me to pick up another deck for sure.

-Elias

[zeus-online]

Try a singleton Chalice as a trinket mage target against flash. You can't combo out under it, but you can still beat

I really don't see goblins continuing to do well, Long butchers gobbo's, so if the meta-game swings to freaking goblins, long will get played and stomp it right back to legacy

/Zeus

[squeegee]

I have been playing Leyline of Singularity against Flash.  Its not as great as LotV, but it does stop the sliver combo, and it pitches to FoW.
I haven't tried using CoV, mainly because it hoses you at any number, that's why it is so good against Bomberman.  But if it saves your bacon, then its worth it.

With goblins, you have to stabilize in the first three turns or so, and I'm not sure what will make that easier.  Maybe something like Psychic Purge???  It takes care of first turn Lackey, pitches to FoW, and would be decent against all the other X/1's floating around.  There is probably something better, just a thought.

As far as the GAT matchup goes, you basically just lose.  I guess you could board more EExplosives, as they are fairly effective.  CoV would also be good here as well.

Hmm, just had random crazy thought pop into head.  Upheaval.  Hmm, need to stop drinking maybe.

[Grand Inquisitor]

I just don't like the fact the Trinket Mage targets aren't very good against Flash, Aether Spellbomb is the only mediocore one as it buys you a turn. For some reason I have a mental image of there being a good target but it's not clicking.

E.E. set to one can work, but it is mana intensive.

GAT

I think SoC is right that bomber will have to adapt.  On top of having a better cheaper engine and bigger creatures, GAT can also just tutor up LoA, which is fatal with Gush to refill.  The directions I've seen as somewhat effective, are moving more towards bob-erman in order to put on early pressure and use mage on creatures, or splashing red for blasts, but more importantly, magus ot moon.

This could to be complete jank once tested, but might magus of the disk be super hot in the mirror and against stax?  Particularly in conjunction with aether spellbomb?

[Sextiger]

Wow, I'm surprised I never thought of using Magus of the Disk, he would fit in perfectly in Bomberman, especially with Spellbomb abuse.  If people are running jank like Wrath of God then this is clearly a better substitute.

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

With everybody talking about Wrath of God and similar cards, may I suggest Balance first? It works as a Wrath for 1W against Goblins and other aggro and is imo still one of the strongest cards in existance if timed correctly. I don't see why the deck wouldn't run Balance at least in the SB.

[kkoie]

I initially tested a ver. with a black splash, but I believe the UW ver. is still a better way to go.  I have also found that 1 md chalice and 1 in the board has been a great help!  It does slow down my combo, but I think it hurts my opponent more.

[Grand Inquisitor]

Balance

I really like balance in stax.  The card is obviously broken in the right context.  However, I find it only works for decks that can drop artifacts/ench (stax) or come back from it's ravages quickly (crucible, land tax, isochron scepter!).  Bomberman evenly spreads it's cards between hand, creatures and land, and it has no strong recursive engine outside salvager.  I can see it being amazing at times, but also frustrating sitting in your hand.

[zeus-online]

My experiences with balance is that it's simply just not good if you're playing with creatures...It was a beast in keeper since it could handle creatures, destroy discard strategies and sometimes you could just "luck-out" and drop a bunch of moxen and take out your opponents hand.

In bomberman you're trying to drop a few critters to set up a combo or get a silver-bullet...Balance would probably hurt you as much as it would your opponent.

From my experience, bomberman wins most games based on bad-creature beats.

/Zeus

[And11]

I agree that Balance is utter crap in a deck containing more than 2 creatures. REB's and FTK's are good stuff though.

[squeegee]

I tried putting a balance in the last couple days on MWS and it was horrible.  I think I cast it once but I had already lost.

I am still going back and forth deciding if I should play red or not.  It can be really good, but the mana base is way more sketchy.

[Wagner]

Balance was in the first version of the deck, and it didn't stay there very long, you have a control base, so you don'T want to be discarting cards or lands. If you want to deal with creatures that bad, STP is way better, I always play 3 in the board and sometimes some maindeck.

[Mr. Sligh]

Hi... I introduce myself to this thread, that I'm following from when it started, to expose to you my Bomberman list and the ideas which bring me to build this deck...
I'm an Italian player and, as you know, in Europe Salvagers decks are played by a few number of players... Especially in Italy... Notwithstanding I think Bomberman is a great deck: the printing of Aven Mindcensor and the B&R list of the past June contributed in a relevant way to the rebirth of the deck... It is the only control-combo deck which is not affect by the limitation of Gifts Ungiven...
The list i want to purpose to you is a semi-classical list... Nothing of truly innovative...

MAINDECK
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Aether Spellbomb
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Sol Ring
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Tormod’s Crypt
4 Trinket Mage
3 Auriok Salvagers
3 Jotun Grunt
4 Force of Will
3 Thirst of Knowledge
4 Mana Drain
4 Brainstorm
3 Merchant Scroll
2 Misdirection
1 Rebuild
1 Echoing Truth
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall

SIDEBOARD
1 Chalice of the Void
2 ???
3 Energy Flux
2 Disenchant
3 Aven Mindcensor
4 Meddling Mage

The maindeck present all Bomberman decks normally run... Except for Jotun Grunt... I've tested a lot this guys and I have preferred them in main other than Mindcensor... The reason??? Well... I think Jotun Grunt is an extremely powerful card because it permit to me to abuse of all play zones... In fact with Jotun and Auriok I could re-use tools or spells I have already played in the same game (the most simple example is the possibility of cast more than one times per game Ancestral Recall using the synergy between Jotun Grunt's cumulative upkeep and Merchant Scroll)...
This is the leading motive I decide to maindeck Grunt...

About the sideboard... I have many doubts regarding it and it is one of the reason I decide to post in this thread... Except for Mindcensor and CotV I really doesn't know if this sideboard could be competitive and useful for the metagame of this day... Thinking to the decks that recently top8 I insert various solution...
Meddling Mage --> For combo and Flash match up
Energy Flux     --> Against Ws.deck
Disenchant      --> For Oath and Ws.deck match up
After that there are 2 free slot... Looking for some US or Canadian Bomberman list and analysing their sideboard I see they put in these slot cards like Sword to Plowshares, Control Magic or Wrath of God (so cards against GAT's match I suppose)...
What do you suggest???
Remember that, as the article of Jank Golem explain, in Europe the percentages of GAT and others Gushbased.deck is lower than in USA...

I will appreciate so much anyone who could help me...

[islanderboi10]

Well, with the rise of Goblins, would Wrath of God be the better sideboard card?  Wrath of God or Exhalted Agel seem to be the best bets right now, in my opinion.

But I do not play Bomberman.  I am very interested in the deck, though.

EDIT: Like i said, I dont really play Bomberman, but could someone elaborate on Repeal being in the deck? I was looking at the Waterbury Bomberman lists, and many of them run Repeal in them.

Thanks

[Wagner]

Wrath of God and Exaled Angel both cost WW to play, and against a deck that runs 5 Strip effects, that myth be a problem to get, also, since you do run 10 or more creatures, you don't need to kill all gobos since you can block some of them, a Sword on a Lackey or Piledriver is often enough.

As for Repeal, having never played it myself, I can only guess that it is another bounce for Chalice/Null Rod that is polyvalent.

Also, I am intrigued to know why ALL Bomberman decklists find the need to play an Echoing Truth maindeck. When playing with Merchant Scrolls, it can be potent, but even then, you already have 2-3 spellbombs to bounce creatures + Explosives to deal with other stuff, what exactly is the Truth for? I haven't seen Empty the Warrens for a while (and then again EE is mostly better).

[Mr. Sligh]

Also, I am intrigued to know why ALL Bomberman decklists find the need to play an Echoing Truth maindeck. When playing with Merchant Scrolls, it can be potent, but even then, you already have 2-3 spellbombs to bounce creatures + Explosives to deal with other stuff, what exactly is the Truth for? I haven't seen Empty the Warrens for a while (and then again EE is mostly better).

In my opinion Echoing Truth is an optimal card in this deck because it could solve the highest number of "problems" and in plus it rebuond all copy of these ones... Look at the cards that disrupt Bomberman combo game-plan... They are CotV, Sphere of Resistance, Null Rod, Pillar and Leyline of the Void...
Well Echoing Truth, which is simply tutorable with Merchant Scroll, resolves 3 of 5 problems and it resolves them even if there are multiple copies of them (this is the real power of the card)
Empty the Warrens is not a real problem... I'll be happy if someone combo out with EtW, instead of Tendrils... He/She will give me time and turns to find a solution...

[Wagner]

That is what I though would be said about the Truth, but over the years I figured that all these cards can be answered by a single Disenchant. Yes I know, Disenchant can only deal with 1 at a time, but in a deck running 8-11 counters, you should let resolve 2 Chalice or Null Rod, and the opponent might not want to cast a second one too. Running Scrolls definitively gives Truth an edge, but I have found that often you want to get rid of the Null Rod/Chalice/Pillar probably as soon as possible as it heavily disrupts your game plan as well as your mana-base while you get beaten, and if you bounce it, it might very well come back the next turn, and you can't always afford to wait until you have a Drain open to counter it when it get cast again, and even if you do, it's still +1 (or +2 if you Fow it) card advantage for them.


You have a pretty normal hand of

Truth/Disenchant
FoW
Fetch
Island
Mox Jet
Salvagers
Thirst
Lets take a simple hand, your opponent goes first and plays land go.

You play land Mox and go.

Then your opponent plays Null Rod, what do you do? Do you Fow Pitching Thirst or Truth? do you let it resolve, hoping to draw another land and Thirst into something or do you wait with 2 lands waiting for the right time to bounce it hoping they will not have counter up.

Another situation, same hand, you start with Mox Land
Opponent opens with Chalice for 0, Shop and Sphere of Resistance.

I'm not saying that one is better that the other, I'm just showing an aspect that a lot of people don't seem to see.



Edit : I didn't take into account the new Flash/Grow metagame, I agree that disenchant is a lot weaker in this meta, I would prefer Truth or even STP to Disenchant.

[zeus-online]

Urh if you have disenchant, you just kill it....really simple...Break fetch for tundra or plains, tap mox in response, tap the land, play disenchant.

/Zeus