Lets discuss Bomberman today

[BreathWeapon]

Ethersworn Canonist is a great SB addition, and I think Sigil of Distinction will be a solid MD choice since it's more or less turning Trinket Mages into Juggernauts. I'm getting a lot more aggro-wins vs fish and co' with it, which makes me think it's worth the slot just for the option of more efficient beat down.

Sigil of Distinction   
Artifact - Equipment
Sigil of Distinction comes into play with X charge counters on it.
Equipped creature gets +1/+1 for each charge counter on Sigil of Distinction.
Equip: Remove a charge counter from Sigil of Distinction.
 #219/249

[nineisnoone]

How big is your Sigil usually?  If you want aggro equipment, you could always just run Bonesplitter.  2 mana (1 cost, 1 equip) for 2 power.  Sigil would cost 3 mana for 2.  Additionally, it passes to other creatures much better than Sigil.
And I would also think Clamp would be better than either.

[Anusien]

I've run Skullclamp and didn't like it; you really want to run 2 to do something relevant.  Cursed Scroll is probably better, but it can't kill Painter's Servants which is quite unfortunate.  I can't imagine any draw wanting to fetch out Sigil of Distortion (costs btw); if you want that sort of effect Mirror Entity is probably better.  My gut feeling is that I'd rather just draw another card or two.

[BreathWeapon]

But the difference between Bonesplitter and Sigil of Distinction is the latter increases the ass on the critter, so Trinket Mage can either stand up to or run over fishes etc. IDK, it'd have more appeal if it were breaking Goyf on Goyf stalemates like it was in Legacy, but I still think it's worth considering.

As an aside, have people tried running a set of Negate?

[Anusien]

In which circumstances is Negate better than Duress?

[The Wolf]

In which circumstances is Negate better than Duress?

When Long top decks Will...

[BreathWeapon]

In which circumstances is Negate better than Duress?

Besides the obvious counter spell vs discard argument, when the deck isn't splashing black and opening up its mana base to Wasteland?

[Vegeta2711]

In which circumstances is Negate better than Duress?

When Long top decks Will...

Why not try harder than grabbing the low-hanging fruit, considering how good Duress is and how poor most 1U counters have been in Vintage.

[Aekhold]

How it would be if anyone of you would post a UWB List with a) just tutors/Will/draw(Scrying maybe) and b) with Duress main.

I played a heavy-counter-suite yesterday expecting many drain-mirrors.
The result of it was that I had NO drain.dec as opponents nor any bluebased deck so  I run 3/2. (Its just a small tourney where some players test for bigger ones)
I played:
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
2 Mana Leaks
2 Misdirection (getting Ancestrals with this card is so much fun)
At all, the mana leaks were really bad.
Maybe any suggestions what they've to be replaced with? Maybe Repeal, Negate, disrupt? ANY ideas`?

// Lands
    1  Tolarian Academy
    1  Polluted Delta
    1  Library of Alexandria
    4  Island
    3  Tundra
    4  Flooded Strand
    1  Underground Sea

// Creatures
    3  Auriok Salvagers
    4  Trinket Mage
    1  Darksteel Colossus

// Spells
    1  Engineered Explosives
    1  Sol Ring
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  AEther Spellbomb
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Echoing Truth
    1  Time Walk
    1  Brainstorm
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Sensei's Divining Top
    1  Fact or Fiction
    1  Mana Crypt
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Ancestral Recall
    4  Thirst for Knowledge
    4  Mana Drain
    4  Force of Will
    1  Tinker
    1  Merchant Scroll
    1  Mystical Tutor
    2 [ARE] Mana Leak
    2  Misdirection
    1  Ponder
    1  Tormod's Crypt

// Sideboard
SB: 1  Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1  Pithing Needle
SB: 3  Energy Flux
SB: 3  Jotun Grunt
SB: 3  Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2  Spell Snare
SB: 2  Seal of Cleansing

not played yesterday. Post-Alara list.

So, I'd try to fit in Demonic/Vampiric/Willl and change some SB cards to duress and Extirpate.
I'd cut 1 basic Island and 1 Tundra for 2 Underground Seas
Any other suggestions by Vegeta, Anusien or anyone other who is testing a blacksplash right now?

[The Wolf]

In which circumstances is Negate better than Duress?

When Long top decks Will...

Why not try harder than grabbing the low-hanging fruit, considering how good Duress is and how poor most 1U counters have been in Vintage.

If you look at the lists in this thread, most of them do not contain any black and are playing mana leak.  I think there is a very good argument for running negate over leak, considering most cards bomerman fears don’t come in the form of permanents.  Also, a lot of people don’t agree with making the mana base weaker by running duress.

It’s not a matter of "Duress is better then Negate"

The point of my post was that the original question was missing the idea that the cards can be compared in a vacuum.  I actually believe that adding black and playing duress over either of the counters is better.
I also really think negate could have a home in the U/W version.  Look at the success it has been having in the BUG fish deck.  This at least shows it’s not to be a card that is easily dismissed.

[FadeToBlack]

How it would be if anyone of you would post a UWB List with a) just tutors/Will/draw(Scrying maybe) and b) with Duress main.

I played a heavy-counter-suite yesterday expecting many drain-mirrors.
The result of it was that I had NO drain.dec as opponents nor any bluebased deck so  I run 3/2. (Its just a small tourney where some players test for bigger ones)
I played:
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
2 Mana Leaks
2 Misdirection (getting Ancestrals with this card is so much fun)
At all, the mana leaks were really bad.
Maybe any suggestions what they've to be replaced with? Maybe Repeal, Negate, disrupt? ANY ideas`?

// Lands
    1  Tolarian Academy
    1  Polluted Delta
    1  Library of Alexandria
    4  Island
    3  Tundra
    4  Flooded Strand
    1  Underground Sea

// Creatures
    3  Auriok Salvagers
    4  Trinket Mage
    1  Darksteel Colossus

// Spells
    1  Engineered Explosives
    1  Sol Ring
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  AEther Spellbomb
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Echoing Truth
    1  Time Walk
    1  Brainstorm
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Sensei's Divining Top
    1  Fact or Fiction
    1  Mana Crypt
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Ancestral Recall
    4  Thirst for Knowledge
    4  Mana Drain
    4  Force of Will
    1  Tinker
    1  Merchant Scroll
    1  Mystical Tutor
    2 [ARE] Mana Leak
    2  Misdirection
    1  Ponder
    1  Tormod's Crypt

// Sideboard
SB: 1  Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1  Pithing Needle
SB: 3  Energy Flux
SB: 3  Jotun Grunt
SB: 3  Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2  Spell Snare
SB: 2  Seal of Cleansing

not played yesterday. Post-Alara list.

So, I'd try to fit in Demonic/Vampiric/Willl and change some SB cards to duress and Extirpate.
I'd cut 1 basic Island and 1 Tundra for 2 Underground Seas
Any other suggestions by Vegeta, Anusien or anyone other who is testing a blacksplash right now?

You really gotta be playing Mindcensor right now. It so beats on the Tezzeret decks, its not even funny

[Aekhold]

Pls answer my questions and make suggestions I need. I just quit playing Mindcensor because it sucked to hard. I will play it maybe if Tezzeret becomes a threat, but I don't see why I should lose to it now.
So, see my last post.

[hauntedechos]

I don't mean to post w/o merit here.  I am NOT a bomberman player (thought I am Canadian *thumbs up sir*), however I have dabbled.

MOST  decks that run heavy control are trying to pack at least a single copy of Tezz into thier builds with Vault/Key as we speak.  If not as a focus point, then certainly as a solid plan 'B' that HAS to be countered....or lose.  The above statement that Aven MUST be played in Bomberman (and  / /x Fish for that matter) in the face of Tezz, is bang on.  If not, then a larger amount of bounce for permanents and or a reliable recurrable source is needed.  Null Rod is a very solid card right now because of this, unfortunatly for Bomberman, you cannot use this house of a card.


Haunted.

[Anusien]

In what case is Misdirection better than Aven Mindcensor?  Isn't it only better when they have Ancestral Recall in their opening hand?  I'd much rather have Mindcensor since it answers a whole other class of cards/strategies (better against Fish/Goblins and it stops Tinker).  I've played Misdirection and absolutely hate it.

[Aekhold]

1)I know in american metagame, Mindcensor is still a huge threat but in european metagame, it's not that good because the more elitary decks are not played by everyone, Misdirection is easily exchangeable for Mindcensor if I can find the other slot to cut for.
Maybe Mystical Tutor, Maybe FoF, maybe T-Crypt, any suggestions?
I'll try to replace leak with Negate.
Misdirection: WinsCounterwars, Protects spells and makes some nice plays when u have no counter, play ur threat in response to a good spell of them and u misdirect a counter on their threat. In addition to this MSD is just a matchwinner when they tutor up Ancestral. Since Gush isnt a threat any longer, people play their Recalls unsafe and I tried to abuse this, maybe a mistake.
Mindcensor is definately strong and wins some matches vs. Painter/Long and so on...

2) Could anyone reply to my orginial post?
-Inclusion of black for Tutors/Will/eventually Duress MD (and Duress/Extirpate SB)

Anybody has some playtestings with UW and UWB vs. Tezzerets.dec?
Maybe we should think about the redplash again for blasting Tezzeret?

I'd like to read all your thoughts (maybe some longer posts), I've got enough time to test and innovate so that we can come to a good list this week.

Greetz,
Aekhold

[The Wolf]

Creatures: 10
3 Mindcensor
4 Trinket mage
3 Salvagers

Tutor Artifacts: 4
1 EE
1 Top
1 T. Crypt
1 A. Spell Bomb

Disruption: 10
4 Force of will
3 Duress
3 Mana Drain

Other Stuff: 13
1 Skeletal Scrying
2 Cunning Wish
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Ancestral
1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Brainstorm


Mana: 23
5 Moxen
1 Sol Ring
1 Black lotus
3 Tundra
3 Ug sea
1 Tolarian
6 Fetch
3 Island

SB:
3x Pithing Needle
2x Rule of law (Prob should have been Arcane as no one runs reb anymore)
1x Tormods crypt
1x Duress
1x Library of Alexandria
1x Skeletal Scrying
1x Orims chant
1x Brainfreeze
1x Darkblast
1x Disenchant
1x Misdirection
1x Echoing truth

@ Aekhold : This is my UBW list that I played to a top 4 at a 5 round, cut to top 8 tourney from back on page 7.  This list is not exactly what you looking for, as I don’t play will, do play wish and seem to have less disruption then you’re looking for.  That being said I think it’s a good start for someone looking to tune a deck to their play style. 

I agree that Mis-D is strong, and that is y I run it as a tutor target for wish.  Maindecking them IMO is a meta choice based on how many workshops you play against. 
As for Tezzeret, Since I am playing mindcensor I have 10 creatures that can attack and just kill him, not to mention mindcensor's ability.  This card is another reason I like wish as you can go grab a disenchant if needed.

[theLastGnu]

Creatures: 10
3 Mindcensor
4 Trinket mage
3 Salvagers

Tutor Artifacts: 4
1 EE
1 Top
1 T. Crypt
1 A. Spell Bomb

Disruption: 10
4 Force of will
3 Duress
3 Mana Drain

Other Stuff: 13
1 Skeletal Scrying
2 Cunning Wish
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Ancestral
1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Brainstorm


Mana: 23
5 Moxen
1 Sol Ring
1 Black lotus
3 Tundra
3 Ug sea
1 Tolarian
6 Fetch
3 Island

SB:
3x Pithing Needle
2x Rule of law (Prob should have been Arcane as no one runs reb anymore)
1x Tormods crypt
1x Duress
1x Library of Alexandria
1x Skeletal Scrying
1x Orims chant
1x Brainfreeze
1x Darkblast
1x Disenchant
1x Misdirection
1x Echoing truth

@ Aekhold : This is my UBW list that I played to a top 4 at a 5 round, cut to top 8 tourney from back on page 7.  This list is not exactly what you looking for, as I don’t play will, do play wish and seem to have less disruption then you’re looking for.  That being said I think it’s a good start for someone looking to tune a deck to their play style. 

I agree that Mis-D is strong, and that is y I run it as a tutor target for wish.  Maindecking them IMO is a meta choice based on how many workshops you play against. 
As for Tezzeret, Since I am playing mindcensor I have 10 creatures that can attack and just kill him, not to mention mindcensor's ability.  This card is another reason I like wish as you can go grab a disenchant if needed.

I really like this list; but I have to ask, do you ever miss the "oops I win" from tinker -> dsc?

[Anusien]

I would never cut Tinker->Darksteel Colossus.  It is the most effective answer to Null Rod.  Tinker pulls you out of so many awkward situations, it's not even funny.

Here's a question for discussion: What are people's thoughts on Tolaria West?  In what metagames/matchups is it good, and when is it poor?

[bluemage55]

I would never cut Tinker->Darksteel Colossus.  It is the most effective answer to Null Rod.  Tinker pulls you out of so many awkward situations, it's not even funny.

Agreed.  Tinker -> any big robot, be it DSC, Platz, Sundering Titan, or whatever just makes a deck so much more explosive with only 2 cards.

Here's a question for discussion: What are people's thoughts on Tolaria West?  In what metagames/matchups is it good, and when is it poor?

Seems like it'd be poorest when there's a lot of Wastelands.  Then it can get shut off easily if needed, and at the same time it's a liability since it increases the chances of being color screwed by a Waste aimed at one of your other lands.

As far as I can tell, it'd make most sense in a slow, control heavy meta, where you're likely to get into topdeck slugfests where putting back a threat is better than a random topdeck.

[RJ]

Seems like it'd be poorest when there's a lot of Wastelands.  Then it can get shut off easily if needed, and at the same time it's a liability since it increases the chances of being color screwed by a Waste aimed at one of your other lands.

As far as I can tell, it'd make most sense in a slow, control heavy meta, where you're likely to get into topdeck slugfests where putting back a threat is better than a random topdeck.

You are thinking of Academy Ruins.  Tolaria West transmutes for 1 . 

To answer Kevin's question, I don't necessarily think that it has a spot in the list really.  It only gets a couple artifacts and CIPT.  I'm pretty sure I would definitely rather have Ancient Tomb than Tolaria West.

[Aekhold]

// Lands
    1  Tolarian Academy
    2  Polluted Delta
    3  Island
    3  Tundra
    3  Flooded Strand
    3  Underground Sea

// Creatures
    2  Auriok Salvagers
    4  Trinket Mage
    1  Darksteel Colossus

// Spells
    1  Merchant Scroll
    1  Mana Crypt
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Ancestral Recall
    4  Thirst for Knowledge
    4  Mana Drain
    4  Force of Will
    1  Tinker
    1  Sensei's Divining Top
    1  Yawgmoth's Will
    1  Demonic Tutor
    1  Vampiric Tutor
    2  Cunning Wish
    1  Sol Ring
    1  Engineered Explosives
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  AEther Spellbomb
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Time Walk
    1  Brainstorm
    1  Tormod's Crypt
    1  Fact or Fiction
    2  Duress
    1  Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 1  Misdirection
SB: 1  Extirpate
SB: 1  Pithing Needle
SB: 1  Orim's Chant
SB: 1  Skeletal Scrying
SB: 1  Brain Freeze
SB: 1  Disenchant
SB: 1  Darkblast
SB: 1  Echoing Truth
SB: 3  Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 3  Hurkyl's Recall

Pretty much based on 'The Wolf's list, some metagame changes. I just like the fourth Mana Drain and I don't want to many Duress' main vs. Fish and Staxx.
I'll maybe exchange Brain Freeze vs. Stroke of Genius, but I think nobody will play Gaea's Blessing so it will stay the Freeze.
I changed Fact or Fiction vs. Skeletal Scrying, I just don't like another Grave-dependant card.
2 Aurioks seems to low maybe, but with enough tutors and enough bombs it's enough for me. I just dont want a hand of 2 Salvagers in UWB. (Ponder is the slot of third Auriok)

Another thing I'd like to ask: Cut 1 offcolor-Mox for the Lotus Petal? Pls tell me if you've got real experiences with it.

[bluemage55]

Another thing I'd like to ask: Cut 1 offcolor-Mox for the Lotus Petal? Pls tell me if you've got real experiences with it.

I prefer that trade.  On top of the obvious color-fixing properties, it also increases the chance you'll have a turn 1 Drain ready, which is especially valuable on the draw. 

That, coupled with the fact that the drawback of Petal only manifesting in the early game (in which its key benefits also come in), makes it ideal for me.

That said, the differences are small enough the use of Petal over an off-color moxen is usually just a matter of player preferences.

[Aekhold]

So, I made several playtestings with both UW and UWB for the tourney tomorrow and I hope some more experienced players will make some notes about them this night. At first the lists (which you can make changes to if you want to;sideboard included)
and then the exspected metagame:

UW: http://nopaste.org/p/aFL4Oifmgb
(3 exchangable slots of 2 Negate, 1 Misdirection vs. 3 Mindcensor)
UWB: http://nopaste.org/p/aRwVYkde2

1-3 Staxx
1 MUD
3-5 Oath
2 Sligh/TMWA
3-5 OwnShit (Elves, ControlFlash, pretty much janky decks...)
2-3 Fish (maybe 2 UW and 1 UBG)
1-2 DrainTendrils and Sensei, Sensei
1 Goblins
1-2 Ichorid
1-2 Spiral Blue
1-2 Tezzeret/TimeVault
1-2 Slaver (one UR with Magus, one URB Strategic)
1-2 Black Suicide
1 Bomberman-Mirror (UWB, swords maindeck, no Censors)
2 Dragons with Oath-SB
2-3 Storm (1 ultrafast combo with Draw4s, 1-2 Grim/Pichtlong)
1 Madness

So, feel free to comment anything you like to.
Greetz,
Aekhold

[the boogie man]

Has anyone been testing ethersworn cannonist in bomberman? There might be enough hard counters to lock them out for a long time, and salvager's ability is abusable, because artifacts aren't restricted. Is there a useful one-mana artifact draw spell? baubles maybe?

If the cannonist is useful, master of etherum could be considered as well. I think that the trinket mage tool box complements it really well. and cannonist becomes a 3/3.

[FadeToBlack]

Is there a useful one-mana artifact draw spell? baubles maybe?

You mean spellbombs?

[Anusien]

Has anyone been testing ethersworn cannonist in bomberman? There might be enough hard counters to lock them out for a long time, and salvager's ability is abusable, because artifacts aren't restricted. Is there a useful one-mana artifact draw spell? baubles maybe?

If the cannonist is useful, master of etherum could be considered as well. I think that the trinket mage tool box complements it really well. and cannonist becomes a 3/3.

Ethersworn Canonist definitely deserves at least sideboard slots for its impact versus Long.  It's unclear to me whether it's any good in the maindeck; I'm sort of uncomfortable how it makes you unable to protect your Salvagers and counters and things.  I think Duress is probably better in the main, but this isn't from testing.
Master of Etherium seems quite poor.  I thought we all agreed a long time ago not to run guys that just beat down unless they're DSC.

Re: Lotus Petal.  Has anyone tried it?  Speculation is sort of useless because the arguments are fairly well understood.

[Wollblad]

I have played Bomberman for a while now and can add the following to the discussion:

* I definitely prefer to run black. I have won so many matches on Will or Demonic for the missing combo piece. Sweden has a meta game crammed with Stax, and I have never experienced any trouble with the mana base, just make sure to run a basic Plains. The deck has a high mana curve compared to other decks and Duress or Thoughtsieze are nice first turn play which buys time to play your Trinket Mage.

* If you are running black and Cunning Wish, try to put Vampiric Tutor in your sideboard. It adds a lot of flexibility. It turns Cunning Wish into something you want to draw instead of something that is just in the way.

* Talking about the high mana curve, I would never cut any of the off-colour moxes. I have tried to play with Lotus Petal, but in 90% of the cases, I just wanted a permanent mana source instead and in the other 10 % it didn't add any brokeness.

* Why is everyone so affraid of Tezzeret decks? As pointed out by The Wolfe, just attack Tezzeret if before side board and Pithing Needle will get him after sideboard.

[the boogie man]

Does it make sense to try and put tezzeret into a bomberman shell? The list has enough creatures to protect him, and trinket mage has awsome synergy with voltaic key. In a pinch, tezzeret could even just be cast to find lotus for the salvager.

The only problem id see with it is that the only place it makes sense to put it is in the tinker-colossus slot. tezzeret wins a turn earlier, but colossus comes down faster. At least you can play tezzeret, though, and timevault and key would not be terribly difficult to find.

And good point on the spellbombs. Must have had a brainfart.

[Anusien]

There are two reasons in my eyes not to include Tezzeret: #1) Pithing Needle on Time Vault, and #2) aggro matchups.  You should absolutely stomp the Tezzeret decks; they are so incredibly bad against creatures in general and Aven Mindcensor in particular that it's amazing.
That said, it's something worth trying.  I'd replace the Spellbomb with a Time Vault, the Salvagers with Tezzerets, and find room for a singleton Voltaic Key somewhere.  I'd also run black for at least a limited tutor suite.  For discussion of that deck, please open a different thread.

Tinker-Colossus is an answer to Null Rod.  Tezzeret isn't; that's pretty compelling to me.

[Darkenslight]

Please bear in mind that Tezzeret finds any artifact, and if you're looking for free artimana, then he doesn't lose loyalty.

Also, What about Damping Matrix in the board, and a transformational board?  Would there be any potential in that?