URBana Fish--The Solution to the metagame

[Negator13]

When I tested Daze, I found myself playing Gorilla Shaman turn 1, Dazing one of my opponents threats.  On my turn, i would attack with Shaman, and be holding Ninja...unable to Ninja.

I lost games because I couldnt get my draw engine online fast enough.

I really don't like daze.

Well I don't really think that argument is valid. You're saying that were the Daze a Mana Leak, you simply wouldn't have had the option of playing it, and then you would've been able to drop Ninja next turn. However in reality all Daze did was give you more options; you could have easily chosen not to play the Daze if you thought Ninja was that important next turn. The only reason there to Daze their t1 play would be if it was an absolute must counter card, in which case Daze is obviously superior since Leak wouldn't have even been an option.

[Moxlotus]

When I tested Daze, I found myself playing Gorilla Shaman turn 1, Dazing one of my opponents threats.  On my turn, i would attack with Shaman, and be holding Ninja...unable to Ninja.

I lost games because I couldnt get my draw engine online fast enough.

I really don't like daze.

Well I don't really think that argument is valid. You're saying that were the Daze a Mana Leak, you simply wouldn't have had the option of playing it, and then you would've been able to drop Ninja next turn. However in reality all Daze did was give you more options; you could have easily chosen not to play the Daze if you thought Ninja was that important next turn. The only reason there to Daze their t1 play would be if it was an absolute must counter card, in which case Daze is obviously superior since Leak wouldn't have even been an option.

But if the majority of that time it the extra option isn't used, then the card sits in your hand for a few more turns.  What card would you rather have sitting in your hand in turn 3 or 4--Daze or Mana Leak?

[ErkBek]

The original URBana fish ran 4 Daze then 3 then 2 and now 0. For the most part its been replaced by Duress as an early disruption spell.

I've got a ton of experience playing the card and I think islanderboi10 has judged the card too harshly for the 1 or 2 experiences he's had with it. In early games Daze is played aggressively to get your draw enigne going or to protect an early chalice. Then in the midgame it would hit draw spells and Gifts. Daze + Remand also was a difficult package to play against as well. In the late game, Daze just helps you bury your opponent.

Well, the problem really is Daze just isn't as good in the new metagame. Red Blast and Duress are just better vs. opposing Duresses and Merchant Scrolls. Also, Daze was believe it or not, actually decent vs. stax (because it hit Crucible a lot).

Mana Leak is really just a replacement for Remand. When the deck started running 4 Duress it wanted more permanent answers to spells rather than more tempo spells like daze. Control Magic has made its way into the deck for similar reasons (the increase in creatures seeing play also contributed). 

So the deck is looking for a tempo spell that's a permanent answer. The only cards that really fit that role is Spell Snare, Delay, Prohbit, and Mana Leak. I think Snare is a little narrow but has a lot of targets in the metagame. Delay only seems good if you are already winning and got your draw engine going. Prohibit is just a bad mana leak that can't be Misdirected. Honestly, I'd probably run a 1/1 split with Snare and leak just to be tricky. Anyone have any ideas for cards that could fit this cheap counterspell? 

[islanderboi10]

When I tested Daze, I found myself playing Gorilla Shaman turn 1, Dazing one of my opponents threats.  On my turn, i would attack with Shaman, and be holding Ninja...unable to Ninja.

I lost games because I couldnt get my draw engine online fast enough.

I really don't like daze.

Well I don't really think that argument is valid. You're saying that were the Daze a Mana Leak, you simply wouldn't have had the option of playing it, and then you would've been able to drop Ninja next turn. However in reality all Daze did was give you more options; you could have easily chosen not to play the Daze if you thought Ninja was that important next turn. The only reason there to Daze their t1 play would be if it was an absolute must counter card, in which case Daze is obviously superior since Leak wouldn't have even been an option.

My statement is valid.

What I am saying is that, as my preferrence, I don't like daze because IF my opponent played a turn 1 threat, I wouldnt be able to drop my draw engine fast enough.

Daze is a good card, its just the deck NEEDS to get its draw engine online ASAP.  When I tested daze,  I lost due to the fact that I couldnt drop my ninja fast enough. 
Daze also can stop a turn two bob.

I can see a turn 1 duress, followed up by daze as being good.  it is just my opinion, though.

[ErkBek]

Daze is a good card, its just the deck NEEDS to get its draw engine online ASAP.  When I tested daze,  I lost due to the fact that I couldnt drop my ninja fast enough. 
Daze also can stop a turn two bob.

I can see a turn 1 duress, followed up by daze as being good.  it is just my opinion, though.

What are you playing Daze on here? Merchant Scroll? Let scroll resolve if playing Daze is going to set you back, you'll be able to hopefully catch up on cards when you net a card with your ninja and then eat their mox on the next turn. A lot of times you can still play Daze on turn 1 and still get your draw engine up on turn 2 b/c you play a full set of moxen.

Also, Daze + Duress is usually only hot when they are playing a Brainstorm in response to the Duress. Daze really shines the most when you are on the play with a Chalice@0 b/c then it's a lot like a hard counter for the next 3 turns.

[islanderboi10]

I just don't like Daze in the deck.


I dazed a Recall, after a scroll.

But, I couldnt get my draw engine online.  They dropped the big Trinket Mage next turn, and I didn't draw an out for their combo.  I did draw Force, though, the turn after.

I pretty sure, though, that the logic is flawed.  Daze is a good card, and a good card in the deck.  It just doesnt really fit my playstyle.

I will test more, though, and possibly keep in two dazes.




EDIT: The more i test daze, the more I seem to like it.  I liek 1 in the maindeck, but is there any other card that could replace it with?

I realize that Daze is really good against Flash, as they hardly have mana up after flash.

I will stick with two daze maindeck, for now, unless someone finds a better card.

[ErkBek]

I hope some people are considering this deck for Waterbury. URBana Fish is starting to catch in popularity in the Midwest metagame again, but I don’t think it’s ever really seen play outside of team GWS and a couple players on ICBM. It’s certainly in the top 5 decks in the format; the only deck I’d consider playing over it is Flash due to its brute power. It’s got favorable matchups all across the upper tier except vs. ICBM Oath.

Last week I worked on tuning a list that I could be satisfied with, here’s the maindeck I reached:

Mana 24
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
2 Volcanic
3 Usea
1 Badlands
5 mox
1 lotus

Disruption 18
4 force
3 chalice
3 duress
3 REB
2 Spell Snare
1 Mana Leak
2 Control Magic

The Good: 3
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral
1 Demonic Tutor

Dudes: 15
4 Dark Confidant
4 Ninja
4 Mox Monkey
3 Waterfront Bouncer

The first change worth discussing is the addition of Badlands. Back in the days of Stax I was forced to run 25 mana sources, but since Stax has declined in popularity I’ve dropped it down to 24 mana. I for a long time I just wasn’t running emerald.  I definitely missed that extra acceleration but I couldn’t figure out a good way to fix the problem. Phil tried cutting a fetchland, which wasn’t working for me. I tried seeing what would happen if I cut the basic Island for the Badlands and found that with the addition of Badlands, I was free to fetch out a basic island much more often since I had both a Red and Black source from the single land. It took me a little while, but I put it all together. I could safely cut 1 Volcanic for the Badlands since I could afford to cut a blue source from the deck, but not a red. 

Another problem I was running into involved Control Magic. Control Magic has been a great card for me in testing. Every single time I’ve played it I won the game, even times when I didn’t have much else going for me. I have had some problems casting it vs. Oath and Stax, which is become slightly more of a problem now that I’ve cut 1 blue source and that Magus of the Moon is seeing some more play.  So I decided to cut 1 Control Magic for a Demonic Tutor since Demonic still gives me access to the same number of creature stealers, however it can do cool stuff like find ancestral, walk, or one-of sideboard cards.

The last change that I’ve made has been the addition of Spell Snare. Vintage is packed full of 2 cost spells at the moment, and several are very important for URBana to stop (especially post board). Snare hits all the stuff like Dryad, Scroll, Oath, Dark Confidant, Drain, Echoing Truth, and Chalice @1 but it also hits a fair amount of post board stuff like Fire/Ice and Pryoclasm.  So far Snare has been really good for me and it even replaces the lost blue card from drop of 1 Control Magic. I cut a Duress for it, but you could definitely cut a Red Blast if you that makes you more comfortable.

The sideboard should be customized for what you expect out of the metagame, but I’d probably run something like this for Waterbury

4 Leyline
3 Rack and Ruin
2/3 Red Blast
3 Needle
3/2 Flame Tongue Kavu

You’re going to have to hope you avoid the Goblins matchup, but here’s what the rest of your matches will look like:

Flash: Favorable (about as favorable as you can get vs. Flash)
GAT: Favorable
Slaver: Slightly Favorable
Bomberman: Slightly Favorable
Ichorid: Even
Stax: Slightly unfavorable
Oath: Unfavorable

Hope you guys give some consideration into playing this deck at Waterbury. It’s got the best matchups you’ll find, it has broken starts, and it's a blast to play.

[islanderboi10]

This deck is definetly fun to play.
When I played it at a small local tournament, I took 3rd.
I really wish I had more FTK in the side, though.  I ran 2 in the side.

It was good all day.

Daze was actually really hot all day.  The addition of spell snare seems like a good addition, i will definetly test it out.

The deck is really really good.
 

[Anusien]

Becker: Can you speak to the differences between your list and the list on the front page?  You went -Volcanic Island +Badlands, -Control Magic + Demonic Tutor, -1 Duress -1 Mana Leak +2 Spell Snare from that list as far as I can tell.  My confusion arises because Phil is claiming Bomberman to be slightly unfavorable and you're claiming it to be slightly favorable, where you've basically made two relevant changes in the matchup; you made your disruption base worse because Spell Snare is pretty poor in the matchup (I would argue worse than Mana Leak at the least) and added one Demonic Tutor.  I don't see how that changes.

Anyway, I'd appreciate if either of you could share your thoughts on the matchup to a greater degree.  As a Bomberman player I look and basically see that all my creatures trade or trump yours.  I think I'd name Needle on Ninja of the Deep Hours if it comes early enough; if not I'm probably naming Waterfront Bouncer.  It seems to me the way you win preboard is with Needle on Engineered Explosives/Salvager and a quick Ninja with counters to keep Trinket Mage from coming out.  When I look at it though I just see so many ways to get card advantage and win the match outright, like landing Thirst for Knowledge, Engineered Explosives or Salvagers.  Is that the right line of thinking?  Why is it favorable/unfavorable?

[Imsomniac101]

Needle does not affect Ninja

[ErkBek]

Needle stops ninja from being ninja'd into play right? That part is an activated ability.

@ Anusien: The main difference between my list and Phil's orginal list is the 3 FTK's on the sideboard. FTK is a house vs. bomberman. Often times the bomberman match comes down to the combat zone and FTK rocks it. I'm not sure exactly what you mean "get card advantage and win the match outright" because URBana is usually the deck that gets far ahead on card advantage and often times has the tools to neutralize it's opponent's draw spells by tying up their mana. I really don't see TFK as a good card vs. URBana, really it's unlikely to be castable/resolvable and when it is I'm usually concerned about other things like creatures. EE isn't really that big of a worry when by itself because it's often times just a 1 for 1, however with Trinket you can get those 2 or 3 for 1's on URBana's precious creatures, that's can be problematic. Waterfront bouncer is crucial to protecting your dudes from removal, protecting your guys in combat, and keeping Salvagers off the board. Salvagers is annoying pretty much only when you've got ninja's that want to connect or when you've got the combo set up. Otherwise, they're just a fat blocker that hopefully I can deal with before you get too far ahead. 

The reason I upped this match to Slightly Favorable is I'm 4-0-1 vs. bomberman with URBana in tournament play. The matches have been close, but still I've never lost to it in 5 matches, so I don't think it's fair to call it Even or Slightly unfavorable. I'm pretty sure I'm something like 6-1-1 in post board games vs. bomberman, largely on the back of FTK.

Vs Bomberman
Urbana fish 5-3

I must say though, I am very impressed with Urbana fish. I am surprised that it could often take out bomberman through shear card advantage and quality.

[Moxlotus]

The inclusion of FTKs in Becker's sideboard pushes the Bomberman match a lot.  I cut them from my last board and the match suffered a bit.  It was a metagame call I made because I did not expect massive numbers of bomberman like Waterbury will probably have.  I've also gotten better at playing against Bomberman recently and have noticed I'm doing better.  Of course, that will probably be neutralized if Bomberman players test against URBana too  

Bomberman can resolve Thirsts all day long as far as I care.  It's not a threat.  It doesn't stop me from winning the game.  Their deck has as many bad cards as yours does, so at least 1 and probably 2 of the cards are semi irrelevant to your game.  Bomberman has like 9-10 cards that matter against you.  EE, Spellbomb, Trinket Mage, and Salvagers.  That means they will average around 1 card you care about in their opening hand.  And 7-8 of those cards cost 3 or more. 

I cut the 5th mox for the Badlands.  I also cut a REB for the second Spell Snare, keeping in 4 Duress.  Minor differences that more than likely will not affect you in a tournament.

The sideboard is wide open.  It can be customized for any metagame.  In a Milwaukee tournament I scrubbed out hard in, I cut all the artifact hate because I did not expect to see any artifacts.  I was pretty much right--only 2 Shop decks out of 30.  In the current metagmae, I would start off with 4 leyline, 3/4 Needles, and 2-4 REBS in the board, and then finish it out.  FTKs, red artifact kill, energy flux maybe.  But dear god avoid the Goblins match.  That's just bad.

It’s certainly in the top 5 decks in the format; the only deck I’d consider playing over it is Flash due to its brute power. 

[volkboys]

Mana 24
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
2 Volcanic
3 Usea
1 Badlands
5 mox
1 lotus

Disruption 18
4 force
3 chalice
3 duress
3 REB
2 Spell Snare
1 Mana Leak
2 Control Magic

The Good: 3
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral
1 Demonic Tutor

Dudes: 15
4 Dark Confidant
4 Ninja
4 Mox Monkey
3 Waterfront Bouncer


4 Leyline
3 Rack and Ruin
2/3 Red Blast
3 Needle
3/2 Flame Tongue Kavu

Hi,

I’m trying to  give a twist to ss and I think red is the perfect color, mainly cause we have access to REB and FTK. FTK help against aggro, which is the worst ss match-up. You version is interesting but I have a few questions:

1) Why don’t we run brainstorm? It could allows us to run a lighter mana base.

2) I really liked stifle, did you tested it?

3) I’m kinda disappointed by the creature base because I often draw 2 mox monkey or the bouncer is useless and don’t put enough pression. Did you tested some others creatures?

I’m still running cutpurse from the ss version and it’s very effective for the moment.

4) Why only 3 chalice? I really want to have it into my opening hand. With no brainstorm, you even can't dig on your first turn for it. Was it enough for you in playtests?

5) Does demonic tutor really worth it? I never really liked it in fish. The problem is that we don’t have enough bombs or silver bullets. In addition, in change nothing to the board and actually make us lose tempo. What’s your mind about this slot.

6) How were needle in side for you? I rarely side them in. In which match in do you side them in and what do you name?

7) Should we give at least one slot for echoing truth? Most fish deck actually run 2 of 'em for ETW.

Thanks in advance for the information.

[Moxlotus]

1) Why don’t we run brainstorm? It could allows us to run a lighter mana base.

It has been in the deck as a 2-of before. You want to spend your first turns doing stuff, not brainstorming.

2) I really liked stifle, did you tested it?

Stifle and Trickbind have been in and out of the deck.  It is a metagame decision.

3) I’m kinda disappointed by the creature base because I often draw 2 mox monkey or the bouncer is useless and don’t put enough pression. Did you tested some others creatures?

If the Bouncer is useless, it likely means you are playing a deck like Long or Slaver which you already have a great game against.  Monkeys are needed for ninjas.  Plus, they are amazing on their own.  Sure, drawing 2 sucks sometimes.  We've had lots of different creatures in the deck to help the deck perform in various metagames.  Dimir Cutpurses were great when the metagame was Gifts and Long, but they are pretty bad against GAT and Bomberman. 

4) Why only 3 chalice? I really want to have it into my opening hand. With no brainstorm, you even can't dig on your first turn for it. Was it enough for you in playtests?

You can't really set Chalice to anything except 0, so you never want to see multiples.

5) Does demonic tutor really worth it? I never really liked it in fish. The problem is that we don’t have enough bombs or silver bullets. In addition, in change nothing to the board and actually make us lose tempo. What’s your mind about this slot.

I like DT.  It has been working for me fine.  Always finding whatever you need, whether it is a draw creature, duress, wasteland, control magic, or counters.

6) How were needle in side for you? I rarely side them in. In which match in do you side them in and what do you name?

I side needle in all the time!  IN fact, I've played with as many as 3 in the maindeck before because they are so good against pretty much everything!  Slaver, Salvagers, Stax, Ichorid, Fish, and flash with Kiki kill!

7) Should we give at least one slot for echoing truth? Most fish deck actually run 2 of 'em for ETW

People still play EtW?  Not in the Midwest anyway--that's why those were cut.

Edit because I fail at keyboard

[Anusien]

7) Should we give at least one slot for echoing truth? Most fish deck actually run 2 of 'em for ETW

People still play EtW?  Not in the Midwest anyway--that's why those were cut.

It seems like people run Empty the Warrens as an alternate kill for Tendrils decks, but the days of Mox, Repeal, Mox, EtW are gone.  I think you can handle EtW from Long as well as Tendrils.

[NicolaeAlmighty]

Pithing Needle does stop Ninja. Look at Tenth edition text:

As Pithing Needle comes into play, name a card.
Activated abilities of permanents with that name can't be played unless they're mana abilities.
Activated abilities of cards with that name that aren't in play can't be played unless they're mana abilities.

[volkboys]

Are you seriously setting chalice at 1 often? You got 13 cards of conv. mana cost=1
99% I drop it immediatly at 0. The only exception is versus oath with a explosive hand.

Statistics also say that you got about 25% chance to have a ninja into your opening hand but no monkey and I find it kinda sad to bounce a 2mana cost creature to play the ninja. Bouncers are good but the lack of pression/draw engine make a lot of difference in most match up. Even against bomberman you just can't return most of them creatures because, actually, it's what they want.

You said others creatures had been tested. May you name them and say why they aren't in the actual list?

[ErkBek]

Volkboys, you seem to have quite the cynical attitude regarding this deck, something tells me that you are trying to play it likes it's the SS with a red splash, when it's actually nothing like that. I'm perfectly fine with playing a turn 1 Bouncer or a Bob and ninja'g it out right away or by turn 3's attack phase. There is a reason the non-ninja creatures have the following casting costsL R, 1U, 1B, it's so you can play them turn 1 to set up your draw engine!

Chalice is set at 0 about 70% of the time I'd say, but I do find myself casting it at 1 a lot in the midgame vs. GAT. I think Phil had a typo, he probably meant to say set it at 0 or 1.

Other creatures that have been tested:

Dimir Cutpurse
Voidmage Prodigy
Trinket Mage
Erayo
Vishano Heritic
Goblin Vandal
Grim Lavamancer
Sage of something, he's a 1/1 for U

I'm sure there is more that have been tested, but that's all I can think of off the top of my head.

[Moxlotus]

Sage of Epityr and Dimir Cutpurse were both in my last list.  The metagame changed from a control-combo metagame to a metagame with creatures.  Those cares are terrible against creatures, so Bouncers and Control Magics made it in.

Riptide Pilferer was also tested a few months ago. I wasn't impressed, but Becker found him interesting if I recall.

I have absolutely no problem casting a turn 1 bouncer or Bob and then ninjitsuing him out on turn 2.  Ninja is that good for the deck.  All of the guys besides Ninja can be cast off a colored source and a mox for a reason--and Becker runs all 5 moxen while I go back and forth between 4 and 5.

If you're playign this like it is SS then you are going to lose a lot.  This is an aggro control deck.  This is not a control deck.  You must get a card drawer down on turn 1 or 2 and if you can't then you must have had an amazing disruption hand of like double duress, waste, sea, fetch, REB, X.  Many games are won on the back of a single Bob or Ninja fueling your disruption for the next 8-9 turns.

[Spacebalzz]

I've been testing this deck on MWS for a while, and I've tweaked my list as follows:

-3 Control Magic
+1 Sensei's Divining Top
+2 Bribery

I like 1 top in just about everything, it always seems to be that absolute nuts for me.

While Bribery does up the Average Casting Cost of the deck for Confidant, it is simply a BOMB.  It's always boatloads of fun to take someone's Platinum Angel or DSC and beat the tar out of them with it.  I won one just tonight by stealing a Serendib Efreet.

Just some thoughts,

-Matt

[Engine_number_9]

-3 Control Magic
+1 Sensei's Divining Top
+2 Bribery

Top is bad in here. Having it in an opening hand sucks because it does´nt disrupt anything and the card filter is not needed early. In midgame and lategame card advantage > card filter. Basicly it's the same reasoning behind not running Brainstorm in Urbana fish.

Bribery´s effect is worse than Control Magic´s effect in the matchups that really matter: GAT and Bomberman. Putting a Dryad or a Savager into play is a lot worse than stealing your opponent Dryad or Savager. Furthermore Bribery costs one more than Control Magic.

[Tiki Walker]

Hello, there.

Just want to drop by to say that the chassis of the original URB Fish made by mr. Kobefan is really excellent already, in regards that it can really be modified to suit any particular needs depending on our expected metagame. One is certain though for the deck, to remain good then modifications suited to one's expected meta have to be applied to the main deck and its sideboard. The URB was and is still fun to play with.

There was a time in our meta when participants who did not have access to powers resorted to building hate decks to prey upon the top tier ones which used full powers.

However, we happen to notice that : First, the characteristics of those hate decks were such that although there were an extreme amount of hate creatures and spells jam-packed into the deck because they want access to lots of hates available on popular colors (that provide efficient hate spells and creatures such as white, black, red, green); those kind of decks need mana stability in the form of numerous dual lands and non basics. Timely Wastelands and Strip can cripple the deck; if followed by steady disruption and card drawing just like the URB is capable of, usually those hate decks just collapsed. 1st turn creature; either Shaman or else (Bob was even better) followed by 2nd turn Ninjitsu really propelled the deck forward.

Second, although those decks in the surface did seem scary (because they packed an extreme amount of hate); in practice those decks could run only with little acceleration because what they were meant was to operate on and have access to the correct colors at the right time and not in fact want to accelerate out anything. So those decks run actually slower than the expected speed of any fully powered T1 decks.

This suggested to us that playing with more Dazes could be the right move for early reactive play as those decks were usually not in a good position to play around Daze when pressed by URB's disruption and online card drawing engine.

They are also significantly slower because the real way to draw cards for them comes only in the form of 4 Bobs and several tutors for point selections.

Third, the hate spells they use come a lot in the form of 2cc cost creatures and spells. Popular hitter/blocker was and we think is still Jotun Grunts, which suited Spellsnares well as one of the prime targets.

All of the above reasons suggested that 5 Strip effects from the URB are going to have good targets when used against those decks to gain even more tempo swing. With a slight modifications of the URB counter-suite, then lots of those decks' spells can be stopped using the most efficient counter available for that kind of situation. What we found was that Dazes and Spellsnares in multiples are very efficient to gain tempo swing and more often than not, they were able to stop a lot of those decks' spells because they were slower that URB in terms of accelerations and card drawings. FTK from the sideboard also could tip the favor to the URB player after boarding.

The other participants who originally liked to play with top T1 powered decks did not take too kindly when they were faced with those hate intentions; seeing that the main thrusts from those hate decks were in the form of numerous hate creatures, they resorted to playing Oath variants to answer those hate decks. Oath has lots of 2cc business spells, and the way they played their Oath they generally tried to go directly for the throat (resolving Oath ASAP). This would likely fall to URB packing Dazes and Spellsnares as well as its other counter suite.

With the expected meta filled with hate decks and Oaths, then our team made a slight modification to the original list

We left the mana configuration as it was; total 25 because we still expected that some other player were still brave enough to show with their signature prison decks. The original color pie from mr. Kobefan we did not change. Once the possibility of removing either Mox Pearl or Mox Emerald to be replaced by Library of Alexandria was considered, but in the end we decided that 1st turn creature is the heart of the deck and we would like that to happen just the way the original worked. So, No library. In slower environment we thought the Library would give better performance.

Creatures 15
4 Gorilla Shaman
4 Ninja
3 Waterfront Bouncer
4 Dark Confidant

For the creature suite, the total amount we tried also to keep as its original, but we tried to modify several creature types to better suite our need in our expected meta. We tried:

-1 Shaman
-3 Waterfront Bouncer

+4 Mogg Fanatics

We considered that Fanatics suited us better than waterfront bouncer because the hate decks used a lot of x/1 and x/2 creatures that have either utility or hate functions. We wanted also to be able to eliminate any opposition's Bob ASAP. The fanatics are easy to come out due to their cheap casting cost, and it was thought quite unlikely that the opposition wanted to block the fanatics with whatever x/2s or X/1s they possessed; particularly if the only defending creature they have was the sole Bob. This in turn make Ninjitsu quite likely to follow, and after that if there was still enough mana the fanatic could come down again and ping the Bob or whatever x/1 on board if they chose not to block the fanatic with him. 

Not a lot of power user generally translated to us as it was OK to play with 1 less Shamans to make way for the 4 fanatics as the priority was killing enemies' x/1 utility creatures. We did not replace the Shaman entirely to still give us some mana control in case Oath players use a complete sets of power. Moreover, there are 2 Oath variants used by the players and 1 of them was the Tyrant type which like to do nonsense juggle with their moxes/mana crypt. We wanted to be ready for that, as well as still retaining capability to remove bothersome small artifacts like needles when it matters. 

good stuff 2
1 Ancestral
1 Time Walk

Of course we do not dispute the importance of these power blue in this tempo-card advantage deck. We kept them in naturally.

Disruption 18
4 FoW
3 Chalice
2 Daze
3 Remand
2 Pyroblast
1 REB
2 Duress
1 Fire/Ice

We removed the Chalices as it was unlikely that we have to block any power play in the form of restricted artifact accelerants, because at that time nobody wanted to play with top T1 decks. We replaced the 3 Chalices with 3 Spellsnares (the fourth in the SB) as we thought that spellsnares would have nice targets on those hate and Oath decks.

-3 Chalice of the Void
+3 Spellsnare

We removed all of the Red blasts because we did not expect a lot of blue based decks were going to show up with those hate decks running around. Basically we replace the 1 REB with 1 more Daze, and the 2 Pyroblast with 2 Extirpates to get key spells like Oath of Druids, or just to eliminate future threats from important creatures or spells already in the graveyard that were likely to come as a 4 of in those decks. So:

-1 REB
+1 Daze
-2 Pyroblast
+2 Extirpate

The Extirpates were included as a test, actually. Duress stayed in the main deck to give info on enemy's hands, to grab potential spell threat hence pro actively nullifying the threat.

For the Fire/Ice slot, we would like to substitute it out for 1 Sword of Fire and Ice. The Sword was chosen because we wanted an edge in likely creature to creature combat situation that was not too vulnerable to Null Rods or Pithing Needles. We considered Sword superior because Sword adds damage, boosts our creature the time it is equipped, gives protection from 2 important colors that were popularly used as anti creature/permanent in T1, and gives us card if the creature's attack connect to the opponent. Hence:

-1 Fire/Ice
+1 Sword of Fire/Ice

Basically the blue spell counts stays the same just like the original so the deck should be able to have ample FoW pitch cards without any strains.

And the sideboard we used looks something like below:

SB
4 Flametongue Kavu
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Rack and/or Ruin
1 Spellsnare
4 Leyline of the Void

The FTKs were intended for Fish, Bomberman, and hate decks matchups.

3 REB were intended to boost the counter capability in matches where they matter most, or to act as a substitution for either Dazes and or Spellsnares in matches where they were not going to be relevant. Being able to blast Tyrant also was quite a nice feature. REB was chosen to avoid Misdirections, which was a constant favorite main deck spells among Oath players in the meta.

3 Rack and Ruin we kept to deal with likely Jittes from the enemies to maintain ground attack superiority, and was kept also to act as a fail safe in case some Prison players did decide to show up.

4 Leylines were there to fight the Ichorid matchup or any heavy graveyard user, and to fight Oath decks that used Reclamations or Witness Recursion instead of the more popular Gaea's Blessing.

What we would like to imply here is that the original URB shell is already very good and can always be modified accordingly to give us fun while playing the deck and still retain the capability to compete if the meta is correctly identified and card choices correctly determined.

Thank you, all.

[Imsomniac101]

That was an insanely excellent post. (Can I put those two adjectives together?). The Fanatics are an interesting choice, I think the part where it's essentially unblockable by opposing Confidants is genius. If Oath is a worry, wouldn't Bouncer do better in the side? Also, would Lavamancer be a better choice in the aggro match?.

[scutakicker]

Here's the list I T8'd a few weeks back with. The 2 interesting things about the list are the 2x Brainstorm and 2x Spell Snare, both of which were last minute changes. Spell Snare was ridiculous all day--between Bobs, Flash, Dryad and Oath its absolutely insane. Brainstorm was marginal. I hadn't had it in any of my testing lists but I had been running into two main problems. The first was mana issues of various sorts (screw, flood or color issues). The second was that I could often get a draw engine online along with some early disruption. I would proceed to swing for a few turns but be unable to seal the game up (I might draw some additional disruption like Waste/Duress) but would still be vulnerable to a topdecked Will/Triskelion/etc depending on the opposing deck. The brainstorm was designed to allow me to turn a full mitt and tempo advantage into a done deal by digging for more control pieces. As it turned out, those 2 Brainstorms would probably just have been better as Mana Leaks.

2 Brainstorm
2 Ninja of the Deep Hours
3 Gorilla Shaman
3 Waterfront Bouncer
4 Dark Confidant
3 Dimir Cut purse
3 Chalice of the Void
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
3 Duress
1 Fire/Ice
1 Time Walk
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Echoing Truth
1 Vampric Tutor
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
1 Island
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal

[wierdmtg13]

what comes outof the maindeck in the GAT match-up?

[Roat17]

I personally believe Fanatic > Lavamancer as a 4 of at the moment.  It kills 2 Slivers, hits Confidant Mindcensors and Weldors the turn it comes down, which is much better than having to wait.  That being said, if anyone is going to play them, I would play at least 3-4 for early disruption.  I am currently using 2 Lavamancers in a deck of mine, and they are fine so far, but I'm also using Sulfur Elemental which is supposedly R-tarded (though I haven't tested against Fish or Bomberman yet).  They are both pretty good cards IMO though.  Also, Fanatic and Lavamancer force your opponent to hold off on playing their Dryad until they can pump for sure, and not having a Dryad on the board is always a good thing.

[Tiki Walker]

That was an insanely excellent post. (Can I put those two adjectives together?). The Fanatics are an interesting choice, I think the part where it's essentially unblockable by opposing Confidants is genius. If Oath is a worry, wouldn't Bouncer do better in the side? Also, would Lavamancer be a better choice in the aggro match?.

Hello, there, Insomniac101.

Sorry for the late reply. Oath variants certainly were the other type of decks that had to be taken into account as likely opponents as well as those loads of hate decks at that time (please kindly refer to our previous post above).

However, instead of just classifying all of the variants into one name (Oath decks), we did find that between available variants at that time their winning mechanisms were quite different one to the other. For example we could encounter simple Oath decks that would just like to Oath up the usual pair of Angels then beat the opponent, the other variants present was the Tyrant variants which were again divided into 2 sub type; 1 sub type utilizing 1 Tyrant and 1 Eternal Witness to regrow Yawgmoth's Will and generate storm counts; and the other sub type used double Tyrant which in our humble opinion represents the most robust winning mechanisms available among those 3 Oath variants.

These three different variants follow different rules to how they want to approach and win their game once they secure the 1st step which is to resolve and protect Oath of Druids.

Because the environment was filled with creature decks, naturally swords to plowshares was the creature removal of choice because all of the hate decks could sport white manas. Some Oath players even also carried StP with their own Misdirections in case somebody wanted to eliminate their creature. This caused the Oath players who took the double Angel approach to switch their creatures into 1 Akroma and 1 Simic Sky Swallower, or just 2 Simic Sky Swallowers. Either they used this configuration in the main deck, or they just sideboarded into these Sky Swallowers in 2nd game. Either way, this change rendered targeted creature removal spells and effects ineffective.

That was one reason why we did not settle on using the Bouncer to deal with Oath decks. The other reason was that the other Oath variants which uses double Tyrants could usually control the board better, and the deck offers another winning mechanism that can be unconcerned with enemy's creature removals.

The problem we faced thus can be summarized as this: the best solution for the double angel variant might not work that well to deal with the Tyrant variants, and vice versa. We put the focus on how to deal best with their creatures, and from play test sessions we agreed finally that we had tried to find solutions at an incorrect target.

With that hypothesis, we accepted that generally it would be far easier to just focus on the core of the problem. Preventing Oath of Druids from resolving was a better, more reasonable goal, and easier to achieve. This was one of those things we kept in mind when we decided to add 3-4 Spellsnares, as well as testing 2 slots of Extirpates to the deck to complement the main deck Duresses. 

Bouncer in the side could definitely be tried to complement Flametongue Kavus to fight aggro hate decks, but SB slots were tight at the time and generally we thought that it would be more simple if we just side in the FTKs to solve creature matches.

In regards of the Lavamancer issue. We considered using the Lavamancer before we finally settled on the Fanatics. It would be certainly nice to have reusable damage source on the board that can turn useless cards in graveyard into creature removal or damage to the opponent, as well as clearing our graveyard from likely candidates of enemies' extirpates (those hate deck users in our environment really had some inexplicable fondness toward that spell).

We tested the lavamancer as a 4 of in the main for a considerable time. What we found was that the requirement of its ability demanded that we had access to constant red mana most of the time. That was certainly quite difficult to achieve in an environment where likely opponents brought decks with full compliment of wastelands and strips. Once in a while it is OK if demand shows for red mana. But if the demand shows up each time we want to use the ability, then what we have is not versatility. It is a burden that we found.

The 2nd problem with this creature is that it has summoning sickness. That means our mission to decapitate Bob as soon as it shows up cannot be achieved if the lavamancer showed up later than that Bob or whatever creature we wanted to eliminate ASAP. Supposed it came out in first turn. Enemy dropped Bob, 2nd turn we attacked, enemy said take, we Ninjitsu-ed. OK then we got in 2 damage and net a card, but the only thing left to us as an option for 2nd main phase was to cast the Lavamancer again, and because it has summoning sickness, we would not be able to kill the Bob. This creature then minimizes options for us.

Fanatics solved these problems in our testing. Many players in our environment do not consider that blocking an attacking fanatic is worthy enough to be done, unless the blocking creature have toughness more than 2 or have protection from red. Therefore, it often made its attacks through,time to time until it actually in the end has hit and damage the enemy quite a lot for its small size. It has also a nice bonus being able to eliminate on demand other enemy's x/1s such as Kataki, Lavamancer, Aven Mindcensor, Savannah Lion, and Goblin Welder, to name a few.

Hope that clarifies on the Bouncer and Lavamancer issues. Certainly both of them are good creatures. We just wanted to take a bit different approach to modify the amazing URB chassis to suit our environment.

Thank you.

[Mindriders]

Greetings Tiki Wlker:
Could you please send me your favorite build of urbana fish (the full list)?

I tried testing with 4 Fanatics, 4 Bobs, 3 Gorilla shamans, 4 Ninjas. and I still find that I often lack 1st turn drops. Maybe I'm still not used to this archetype yet...

How do you think this deck handles itself against gush based decks?

[Tiki Walker]

Greetings Tiki Wlker:
Could you please send me your favorite build of urbana fish (the full list)?

Hello, there, Mindriders.

If you are looking for the list be advised first that the list was made for a certain environment that we tried to address. Moreover, the list was created before the recent announcement from DCI regarding the B/R List for T1. This list might be obsolete now and might not work wonders for your environment. I encourage you to tinker with the original list yourself, taking into account what kind of opposition decks the original builder was trying to prepare for, so you can alter the composition to suit your current environment accordingly. Using the original as a template is always valuable to begin any modifications with.

Nevertheless, the list was using the original URB chassis from mr. Kobefan, with the alterations I have described on my previous post. Feel free to tinker with the list, for adaptation is key to remain competitive.

I tried testing with 4 Fanatics, 4 Bobs, 3 Gorilla shamans, 4 Ninjas. and I still find that I often lack 1st turn drops. Maybe I'm still not used to this archetype yet...

With the above configuration provided you still followed the original URB mana configuration without subtracting any moxes; then you basically have 4+3 real first turn drops accompanied by some fair chances that you are going to be able to open the game with 1 of those 4 Bobs... We found that actually the frequency was quite fair that we were able to have access to 1 artifact mana and at least 1-2 lands in the opening hand for this deck.

If you find somehow that your 1st turn play is quite lacking, then of course you may consider to parish your hand. Sometimes if you have disruption heavy hand, then you might want to try to play anyway. You might want to probe first your opponent and not giving too much info with your 1st turn play, for instance.

A fair share of this deck's games were decided on whether the draw engine can be put to function soon or not, though.
 

How do you think this deck handles itself against gush based decks?

As we have stated above, the list was created to suit a certain environment and it was also created before the changes in B/R List. It might be obsolete for your environment now. Therefore we think it would be best if you experiment with the list yourself, try to incorporate cards that you think can handle your environment.

Currently we think there are at least 2 types of Gush based decks;  the most popular one is we think GAT and its variants; the 2nd one is maybe the Gush Tendrils or Gush TPS decks. Their kill mechanisms are completely different to each other, 1 aims to kill with creatures and the other kills with the old storm mechanic.

We would like to postulate that early Fanatics on the table will be able to deter plain Dryad deployment; giving URB more time to employ its disruption in the form of strip effects, discards, and counters; and of course buying some more time so its own card drawing engine can be brought online. However we have not actually test this matchup at all due to our real life activities' constraints. You might want to test this matchup yourself to see whether there are any modifications needed to compete with GAT or is the list already sufficient to put up a good fight against GAT.

As for the Gush Tendrils, we think you could also try to identify the path on which that deck have to follow in order to win, identify their key cards, and modify the contents of the URB accordingly to attack that mechanism. As modification examples; may be you would like to up the number of Duresses for the URB and lessen the number of irrelevant counters, and it might be worth it to test cards such as Null Rods or Arcane Labs to make your URB deck more disruptive against that deck. The chalices might be good enough to return to the main deck after you tested it, for example. Running Stifles or Trickbinds might not be that advantageous if the opponent also employ disruption tactics prior to storm generation (their own Duress, for example).

Thank you.

[wierdmtg13]

what ideas are there for fighting against the goblin match-up.  i've been testing it and been getting absolutely smashed game after game.  it seem goblins just has infinite gas against my smaller creatures