URBana Fish--The Solution to the metagame

[wierdmtg13]

i've been testing the Drake and he is absolutely insane.  pretty combo with bouncer: play drake, switch guys, bounce the drake.  rinse repeat.

[The Duressed]

Waterfront Bouncer is already pretty ridiculous on its own. You don't need to cut one for a Gilded Drake because having a Bouncer on the table already means that you've probably stabilized. Gilded Drake in addition to that is win-more, and a singleton is purely random. Sower of Temptation is seeing play because it does the same kind of thing as the Bouncer: completely lock down your opponent's best creature. It's even better, sometimes, because you just steal the creature instead of sending it back to your opponent's hand. The only real difference is that it doesn't wipe the +1/+1 counters off Quirion Dryads. Personally, I'd rather have a 2/2 flying than give my opponent a 3/3 flying. It's a cute combo, but there are many situations in which giving my opponent a 3/3 flying creature is about the worst possible thing I could do anyway.

In any situation, bounce still remedies their problem. They send back their own guy, and you sit there looking silly with a Drake in hand, 1 less business spell, and no solution to them just Forcing your Drake. You've bounced their Dryad. Congrats.

Guys, the situation of "Drake, bounce it with my Bouncer, play it again," is simply not realistic. This format is won by a single creature, and Bouncer already can take care of that. Our opponents have lots of answers for just about everything you can throw at them, but Drake just seems worse than the other options.

What decks are you playing against that you need to steal more than 1 creature, anyway? Fish?

[wierdmtg13]

your logic seems to make perfect sense. the Drake is a win-more card.

on the crucible debate, how important is it to run a factory or 2.  i mean the deck is already 3 colors and sometimes i have problems just getting the mana i want anyways.  a colorless producer can only lower the probability of getting the correct mana turns 1, 2, and 3.

[The Duressed]

Depending on how you feel about it, the easiest answer could simply be cutting the Mox Pearl and Mox Emerald. Cutting both of them feels risky at best, because I personally wouldn't want to slow my build down any more, especially with Crucible coming in. The average CMC in this deck feels fairly high, to be honest, especially if you run things like Sower of Temptation. It's your call, but the place to start is probably cutting at least one off-colored Mox.

edit: I'm glad you agree. I can definitely see an argument for Gilded Drake, but I feel that the rewards don't outweigh the drawbacks as much as they do for Sower of Temptation or just Control Magic.

[ErkBek]

skullcatapult (1:48:18 PM): Did you see the post on your deck's thread today about using Gilded Drake over Sower?
ErkBek (1:48:36 PM): yeah, I've thought about Drake and posted about it too
ErkBek (1:48:50 PM): I think really the Bouncer + Drake combo is a win more
ErkBek (1:49:05 PM): since if you got both Bouncer + Sower you'll prob pull it out anyways
ErkBek (1:49:23 PM): but Drake is a problem b/c you give them a beater that evades for 3
ErkBek (1:49:40 PM): if you got a bob + Drake and no bouncer you'll likely be raced

[The Duressed]

To those of you who have tried Thorn of Amethyst main, I have a couple questions.
1) What did you cut for it?
2) What is your experience with it? What's it good against, what's it bad against? Please be detailed.

[wierdmtg13]

so now that the SCG Chicago lists are up, it seems a huge part of the meta is gushes and workshops.  urbana crushes gush, but now it has to be tuned to combat workshops while being able to deal with tarmogoyfs.

what are everyone's thoughts?

[BC]

I played this list in Chicago over the weekend with mixed success:

1  Underground Sea
1  Swamp
3  Volcanic Island
4  Island
2  Flooded Strand
4  Polluted Delta
1  Black Lotus
1  Mox Pearl
1  Mox Jet
1  Mox Sapphire
1  Mox Ruby
1  Mox Emerald
1  Sol Ring
1  Lotus Petal
= 23 mana

4  Dark Confidant
4  Magus of the Moon
4  Spellstutter Sprite
4  Mogg Fanatic
3  Sower of Temptation
3  Ninja of the Deep Hours
2  Gorilla Shaman
= 24 creatures   

1  Ancestral Recall
1  Time Walk
1  Demonic Tutor
1  Demonic Consultation
1  Vampiric Tutor
4  Force of Will
4  Thorn of Amethyst
= 13 other spells   

4  Leyline of the Void
3  Pithing Needle
2  Umezawa’s Jitte
3  Viashino Heretic
3  Maze of Ith
= 15 sideboard cards

It actually did quite well against Workshop Aggro and also very well against the Trinket/Naught decks that were everywhere.  The matches I lost were mostly to CS/Gush Tendrils type decks.  I think Aether Vial might help out a lot with that.

Spellstutter Sprite - This card was the most awesome thing ever.  Turn 1 counter a Mox, Brainstorm, Duress, Welder, etc., then turn 2 bounce it back with a Ninja and save it to counter another 1cc spell.  If you are lucky enough to draw 2, then you can counter just about anything.  Highly recommended.

Sower of Temptation - Another good addition which is very useful against most decks in the metagame.  The only problem is that it is vulnerable to Fire/Ice, Pyroclasm, etc., which was an issue in a couple matches.

Thorn of Amethyst - Very solid for me all weekend.  Got sided out several times against Shops and stuff, but still a good inclusion in a deck running 24 creatures.

Magus of the Moon - Although it can be backbreaking against some decks, it was kind of meh for me all weekend.  Most U-based control decks run bunches of basic Islands, so it doesn't hurt them enough.  Workshop Aggro decks are often mono-R, so it is total stains against them.  Obv sucks against Gobbos.

Another concern with this build is that it is getting very light on Blue cards.  Very concerning for FOW.

[The Duressed]

It looks to me that your idea of Maze of Ith is absolutely correct, if not ideal, for the current metagame, but you're the one that tested it. How were your results from Maze?

It also seems to me that your deck won't draw as many cards as you'll want it to. I was about to suggest another Ninja of the Deep Hours, but the meta is saturated with creatures. In a lot of games, it'd be a feat just to get Ninja ninjutsu'd into play in the first place. I'd suggest a few Brainstorms, which would help you by getting you a little more consistency, card draw, and being blue.

Magus of the Moon is rough. I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't run it, either main or side. I know I'd want it in against Gush-based decks, but it also shuts off your own Maze of Ith, which seemes pretty bad for the home team. In terms of some tricks for extra mana denial, I would suggest Crucible of Worlds. Recurring Wastelands, Strip Mines, and Mishra's Factories can be a total nightmare for your unfortunate opponent. The other thing I noticed in your manabase is that you're running Lotus Petal. In a deck that ramps up into spells that cost as much as 4 with no option of an alternate casting cost, Petal just doesn't seem optimal. I think I'd almost rather run Mana Crypt.

[BC]

Maze was really good against both Goyfs and Workshop Aggro robots.  It is not really a problem to run both Magus and Maze because you can just chump block with Magus if you need your Maze to be active.

It wasn't terribly hard to get a Ninja down on turn 2, since the deck has 6 1-drops and 4 Sprites which often come down on their first turn.  Four Ninjas wouldn't be a terrible idea.  Neither would Brainstorms, other than the fact that they have bad interaction with Thorn.  Maybe Sage of Epityr would be better.  You're right about needed to draw as many cards as possible, though.  I ran out a few times.

If I take out Magus of the Moon, then Waste/Strip would be an obvious inclusion.  Mana Crypt over Petal is also a good idea.

Thanks for the input.

[The Duressed]

My point about Ninja of the Deep Hours wasn't that it seemed difficult for you to get him onto the table, it was quite the contrary, in fact: it looks like, out of a lot of builds I've seen recently, your deck can probably throw a Ninja into play with more ease than anybody, especially since Spellstutter flies. My point was that it seemed unrealistic to assume that he would remain useful for the rest of the game. So many decks are throwing creatures onto the table as fast as possible, and most of them at least have a toughness greater than 2. It feels to me like you'd be lucky to get 2 cards drawn from the Ninja. I've cut my count to 3, with 2 Brainstorms right now, and I wouldn't be surprised if I decided that there was simply a better creature. Ninja dies to Trinket Mage, for God's sake. It just feels to me like a Ninja will not be big enough to get through, for a long time.

And you're welcome. 

[BC]

That's a good and very valid point.  Ninja gets you one card, two if you're lucky, rarely more.  But he does let you replay your Spellstutter Sprite, which is awesome.  Still, I think 3 is the right number.

[shadowofrpgfreak]

A thought occurs... has anyone tried Shadowmage Infiltrator? He can block Trinket Mage, swing past other creatures, and nets you a card... and still only costs 3. I do like Ninja, but perhaps a better option is needed with the creature-heavy meta right now.

[ErkBek]

A thought occurs... has anyone tried Shadowmage Infiltrator? He can block Trinket Mage, swing past other creatures, and nets you a card... and still only costs 3. I do like Ninja, but perhaps a better option is needed with the creature-heavy meta right now.

You don't need evasion if you run Waterfront Bouncer.

[BC]

Waterfront Bouncer was in my original list, but I cut it as a metagame decision and replaced it with Sower of Temptation.  Bouncing a fat Dryad or a Colossus is decidedly awesome, but bouncing a Goyf or a Juggernaut is definitely un-awesome.  I would add maindeck Threads before I put Bouncers back in.

[ErkBek]

but bouncing a Goyf or a Juggernaut is definitely un-awesome. 

Depends really. If you have bob or Ninja's going the discard doesn't really matter. Also, you can often times Bounce a dude and waste a land preventing them from casting the Goyf or Jugg again. Without Wastes though, bouncer is significantly worse though.

[Guli]

Bouncer or Sower?

Always possible to play a 3-2 mix! They also have a combo just like drake does. You can bounce Sower in response to its 'when comes into play trigger' Meaning you will never have to depend on the sower to keep the stolen creature AND you can reuse the Sower. Of course these tricks are bonus. (at least in my eyes)

The real power of Sower is (in my opinion) that he comes in when the situation is critical. So when designing a deck that includes Sower's you want a good pack of disruption to keep down opponents resources and then punch hard with cards like Sower taking away whatever got trough your disruption. It is very hard to come back when your hand has no fuel left and your best creature gets stolen.

[LordHomerCat]

Always possible to play a 3-2 mix! They also have a combo just like drake does. You can bounce Sower in response to its 'when comes into play trigger' Meaning you will never have to depend on the sower to keep the stolen creature AND you can reuse the Sower. Of course these tricks are bonus. (at least in my eyes)

Negative.  If you bounce Sower with his ability on the stack, then when it resolves nothing will happen since he isn't in play anymore.  Its kinda like destroying Vedalken Shackles in response to stealing a dude, the ability resolves and nothing happens.

[Guli]

Always possible to play a 3-2 mix! They also have a combo just like drake does. You can bounce Sower in response to its 'when comes into play trigger' Meaning you will never have to depend on the sower to keep the stolen creature AND you can reuse the Sower. Of course these tricks are bonus. (at least in my eyes)

Negative.  If you bounce Sower with his ability on the stack, then when it resolves nothing will happen since he isn't in play anymore.  Its kinda like destroying Vedalken Shackles in response to stealing a dude, the ability resolves and nothing happens.

Q: Can my opponent Shock my Sower of Temptation in response after I choose a creature of his?

A: Yes. When Sower of Temptation comes into play, its ability will go on the stack. When it does, you will need to choose a target for the ability. Before the ability can resolve, each player will receive priority. It is at this time that your opponent can Shock the Sower. If he does, then the continuous effect from the Sower's ability will not be applied at all, and the targeted creature will not change control.

You are correct.

[Everrid1234]

A thought occurs... has anyone tried Shadowmage Infiltrator? He can block Trinket Mage, swing past other creatures, and nets you a card... and still only costs 3. I do like Ninja, but perhaps a better option is needed with the creature-heavy meta right now.

Good idea.

[Isaac85]

In recent tourneys I've noticed a rise in Dreadnought's. I know mox monkey is powerful but is he enough or would engineered explosives also be a good main deck answer.

[And11]

In recent tourneys I've noticed a rise in Dreadnought's. I know mox monkey is powerful but is he enough or would engineered explosives also be a good main deck answer.

Are you trying to say that Mox Monkey kills Dreadnoughts or that he should be replaced with something that does?

[Isaac85]

replaced with something that douse.

[The Duressed]

I wouldn't count on Goralla Shaman to be my creature destruction. In a format that is saturated with creatures, you will need many ways to deal with them, and diverse ways. Everything from Waterfront Bouncer to Diabolic Edict. And focusing on the Dreadnought match-up seems awfully narrow, anyway. My advice to you is to take a broader view of the metagame, and tune your control suite accordingly.