New to vintage Stax help?

[jj2423]

I am new to vintage after finally being able to purchase the necessary cards and after losing to Stax in casual play, but never really understanding how it runs completely, I thought I would ask before attempting to create my own version. I am interested in the cards that this deck contains but not sure how it runs, can someone help? Also how does a more typical and an Uba Stax run?

Mainboard:

1 Black Lotus
3 Bottled Cloister
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Juggernaut
3 Karn, Silver Golem
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Memory Jar
4 Metalworker
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
2 Powder Keg
3 Smokestack
1 Sol Ring
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Tangle Wire
1 Trinisphere
3 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Wasteland

# 60

Sideboard:

2 Duplicant
2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Jester's Cap
1 Powder Keg
3 Razormane Masticore
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Triskelion

# 15

Hello, and welcome to The Mana Drain!  While we appreciate newer users seeking the guidance of the community in refining their decklists, our forum rules require that threads contain more content than just decklists.  One suggestion for additional content might be to include explanations about your card choices and specific aspects of your deck that you are uncertain about.  Please be sure to review the TMD rules so as to avoid this issue going forward.  We look forward to your future contributions.  -DA

[Moxlotus]

Here is a few articles that will help you nderstand where Vintage has been in the past few years and some information on the basics of a few decks:

http://www.starcitygames.com/pages/articlefinder.php?keyword=stephen+menendian

Some of the newer ones are for premium users only, but after 3 or 6 months the articles become free for everyone to view.

A few of the highlights that may be most useful to you:

2006 year in review part 1

2006 year in review part 2

the 10 principles of vintage

INTRO TO VINTAGE!!!!!!!

Vintage jargon

Those are some of the articles in the past year that Stephen Menendian (basically the only Vintage writer) has written.  There are some older ones that maybe be of interest too

[yespuhyren]

A list I'm currently testing is the following, if it helps you any:



// Lands
    1  Tolarian Academy
    4  Wasteland
    1  Strip Mine
    4  Bazaar of Baghdad
    4  Mishra's Workshop
    4  Mountain
    3  Barbarian Ring
    2  Ghost Quarter

// Creatures
    4  Goblin Welder
    2  Karn, Silver Golem

// Spells
    1  Mana Crypt
    1  Mana Vault
    1  Sol Ring
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Trinisphere
    1  Mox Sapphire
    4  Sphere of Resistance
    4  Crucible of Worlds
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Pearl
    4  Tangle Wire
    4  Chalice of the Void
    1  Mox Diamond
    4  Orb of Dreams

// Sideboard
SB: 3  Shattering Spree
SB: 4  Maze of Ith
SB: 4  Defense Grid
SB: 4  Juggernaut

[defector]

Stax has become one of the most diversified archetypes in the game, so I would advise focusing one one archetype and playing it until your completely comfortable with it before moving onto another. I ran WelderMud and Mud, and U/R Stax the most. I like the U/R variant the best though Kevin Cron's 5C Stax was amazing, though super hard to pilot sometimes. The critical heart of the deck for me is:

Smokestack X4
Crucible of Worlds X4
Chalice of the Void X4
Goblin Welder X3
Sphere of Resistance X4

I've thought of going to three Crucibles but its hard because an early crucible is an easy way to find out if your opponent has a Force of Will. Stax has a weak draw engine that is countered by either Bazaar in the Uba builds or by creating a list of thorough redundancy. Cards like Grafted Skullcap and Meditate were run in some of the older lists to deal with the draw problem, but haven't stood the test of time. Cards like Tangle Wire and Null Rod are more metagame conditional than they might appear. I regret not running Null Rod sometimes.

A critical component of the deck that some novice players struggle with is that Stax wins by generating a complete lock on the game. It does not win by dealing 20 points of damage. As such there is no real reason to run more than one Karn. If you win game one than side him out. If your opponent insists on running out the clock than you win 1-0. Welder beat down is silly, but works. Players that know what they are doing will concede in the face of a hard lock. Stax plays a lot more like MonoU control than you might think from looking at the lists. In example, MonoU shoulod side out the Morphlings if they win Game one. I have sided out all Welders and karn for some game twos in tghe aim of just creating a lock which concession gives me the series or time running out gives me the series.

Sideboards for this deck are heavily dependent on metagame choices. The only card that really found a home forever in my board was Razormane Masticore as he is synergistic with Goblin Welder and helped a great deal in some of the poorer match ups. I was playing in a Fish heavy metagame, and losing tempo to that deck is really easy and just awful.

Best of luck with this deck, its one of my all time favorites!

defector

[Guvante]

Personally I have always liked the 5C variant, and for that variant, this is what I would consider a good starting point deck wise
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 City of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolrain Academy
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Vault (Sometimes removed because it can be a pain to untap, but this can be really useful getting stuff out turn 1)
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
3 Crucible of Worlds (Insane with Wasteland or Strip Mine, and nice with Gemstone Mine if the game lasts too long, also helps recover from Smokestack)
4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
3 Chalice of the Void (4th is nice but not necessary, as often the second Chalice hurts you just as much as them)
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Trinisphere
1 Karn, Silver Golem
Other Kill Cards (Usually 2-3 other kills are included)
1 Tinker (Staxs "Oops I win if you don't counter" card)
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Ancestral Recall (3 cards is always nice)
4 Goblin Welder (Some don't run 4, or any at all, but I think this guy is too broken for less than a playset)

There are a large number of changes you can do from there, here are some that I have noticed
Crop Rotation (Turns a mutlicolored land into a Mishra's Workshop, Tolrain Academy, or Bizaar of Baghdad if you are running it)
Bizaar of Baghdad (Good with Welder and Rotation, be very careful, if you don't have any hand or cards in play it is really hard to win )
Balance (Droping a pearl and another mox or a 5C land and any artifact man makes your opponent discard at least 3, and all you lose is a land first turn, with the right hand it is even better, but on the draw or against certain decks it is sub optimal at times)
Darksteel Colossus (11/11 Indestructible Trampler is hard to deal with, but alot of decks run bounce now, so he has lost some of his flair, I love him tho )
Sundering Titan (Rapes mana bases, missing every land in the deck, and beats for 7 to boot)
More Karns (This guy sometimes just wins, but he is also legendary, and fetchable, so up to you really)
Barbarian Ring (Nearly uncounterable beating to the face that is reusable via Crucible is nice)
Platnium Angel (I can't lose, you can't win is awesome, but fails in even more ways then Darksteel when getting targeted)
Null Rod (Missing everything but your acceleration, since your locks are either game changing or triggered)
Leyline of the Void (Ichorid bypasses alot of this decks control methods, personally I don't think this is worth a MD spot, but debatable definatly for a SB spot)
Thirst for Knowledge (Draw 3 and give yourself Welder fodder is nice)

And finally, here is what I currently run, note that it needs to be refined a bit more still, and I need to make room for Imperial Seal still

//Land
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 City of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine
1 Tolrain Academy
1 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Wasteland
1 Stripmine

//Artifact Mana
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring

//Kill Conditions
1 Karn, Silver Golem
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Sundering Titan

//Tutors
1 Tinker
1 Crop Rotation
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor

//Lock Components
4 Tangle Wire
4 Smokestack
3 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Trinisphere

//General Utility
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Goblin Welder
1 Balance
3 Thirst for Knowledge

[yespuhyren]

Here is a list I'm tweaking right now.  Its working with Needles.

// Lands
    1  Tolarian Academy
    4  Wasteland
    1  Strip Mine
    4  Bazaar of Baghdad
    4  Mishra's Workshop
    4  Mountain
    3  Barbarian Ring
    2  Ghost Quarter

// Creatures
    4  Goblin Welder
    3  Karn, Silver Golem

// Spells
    1  Mana Vault
    1  Sol Ring
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Trinisphere
    1  Mox Sapphire
    4  Sphere of Resistance
    4  Crucible of Worlds
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Pearl
    4  Tangle Wire
    4  Chalice of the Void
    1  Mox Diamond
    4  Pithing Needle

// Sideboard
SB: 3  Shattering Spree
SB: 4  Maze of Ith
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 4  Juggernaut

I'm trying to get a decent lock/clock in there but its hard.  This is just the current idea though.

[sorcutt]

I'm trying to get a decent lock/clock in there but its hard.  This is just the current idea though.

I think a strong lock possibility could be the inclusion of 4x man moon. He's a beatstick for you an he has relatively good synergy with the mono R theme of deck. Maybe  -1 needle, -2 ghost quarter, and -1 crucible.

[madmanmike25]

@Yespuhyrens list

Really?  Mox Diamond?  You only need red mana and have only the 4 Welders that you need to cast.  Could you please explain this card choice?  You already have Mana Vault for the quick boost, is Diamond necessary?  In my lists I have cut the Vault because Crypt is strictly better imo and that extra dmg adds up, especially with B-Rings.

If you aren't playing with Null Rods(due to Karn), then you should probably include at least 2 Tormod's Crypts.  What about a 2/2 Crypt, Needle split?  Actually with no Rods, whatever happened to Jester's Cap????  Seems like it might be ok to take out Dryads/Tog/Slivers/Etc.

Also, if you are that worried about a clock then run the Juggernauts maindeck.  It appears that this deck just slows the opponent down hoping to do the 20 dmg before the soft locks wear out.  Quarter/Crucible sometimes works but only with enough 'lock' cards, such as smokestack.

Since you run Spheres, any room for Mishras Factorys?  They can do a decent amout of dmg before you get a Karn onslaught as well as being solid blockers.

I also noticed you took out Orb of Dreams, any particular reason?

Coming up with a lock/beatdown hybrid is difficult, I know from experience.  I usually prefer one or the other these days with the aggro deck containing 4 REB's, Moons, and SSG and using a traditional(but slightly modified)  build of Stax for the lockdown.


@Sorcutt
Check out his lands, waaaay too many non-basics.  He might end up more affected by a Magus than his opponent.

[Guvante]

@Sorcutt
Check out his lands, waaaay too many non-basics.  He might end up more affected by a Magus than his opponent.

It think his point was that since all of your non-basics become mountains, you can still utilize them

Sure your Workshops don't produce as much, but non of your lands are locked out of effective use either.

[Zwadishim]

A critical component of the deck that some novice players struggle with is that Stax wins by generating a complete lock on the game. It does not win by dealing 20 points of damage. As such there is no real reason to run more than one Karn. If you win game one than side him out. If your opponent insists on running out the clock than you win 1-0. Welder beat down is silly, but works. Players that know what they are doing will concede in the face of a hard lock. Stax plays a lot more like MonoU control than you might think from looking at the lists. In example, MonoU shoulod side out the Morphlings if they win Game one. I have sided out all Welders and karn for some game twos in tghe aim of just creating a lock which concession gives me the series or time running out gives me the series.

I have been playing a URB fish build for a while now and have consistently beaten stax with this deck.
The major disadvantage of stax is that many of the prison cards are symetrical and stax depends on Workshop/ancient tomb/tolarian acedemy to boost the mana to get around this fact.

The deck is therefore hurt tremendously by wastelands and often finds itself locked by its own cards if a shaman/waste attack takes out a few peices of mana.

What decks will do is not concede to the lock if they are holding or can get acess to wastelands, thereby forcing stax into a situation where they need to either sacrafice their smokestack because there are zero permanents on opposing side or sac their own lock peices to the smokestack in order to get themselves out of the same lock.

This occasionally happens with oath, long, and gifts...
Stax does not have enough damage or enough draw to consistently get out of its own lock if opponents focus on mana denial.  Decks can often wait for Hurkle's Recall or shattering spree, or even a single chain of vapors or echoing truth to get the turn they need to play a threat that stax cannot deal with.

Stax is a wonderful deck and has historically been very good.  Its weaknesses are the facts that a.  It can get slaughtered if it is forced to play second and cannot respond to its opponents first turn, b.  it has to wait out a smokestack to get rid of permanents... which can be long and difficult... and c.  it has a terrible time with wasteland/welder... the most common cards in current fish builds.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

Honestly, don't play bottle cloister. Your going to get it bounced or welded and loose your entire hand. You also really want to play more than 2 crucible. its a great lock piece, weld fodder, karn target, and you can tinker away number 2 in  play. I know its not the kind of card you want to seem multiples is play of. So running two makes sense, but the deck has such a poor draw engine this will not happen that often. I personally prefer, 5 color stax (other than roll a die stax ) as well. It gives you the ability to just play the most broken spells possible despite color restriction. also, your really going to want to run mishra's factory.
Good luck, have fun.