desolutionist
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« on: July 27, 2007, 09:14:23 am » |
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I wanted to make this good but I just don't have the time. So please forgive me for just forcing end words to rhyme. Everyone from The Mana Drain was at the Open this year... But Team Meandeck, of Mean Deck, unfortunately was not near! Mr. Demars hates Christmas! The whole Christmas season! I stomped him at Roanoke is probably the only reason. But this isn't a poem about Meandeck's lack of Christmas cheer... Nor is it about the day one shenanigans caused by liquor and beer. This is about the new storm deck called Gush TPS, Which is obv tier one, I must wholeheartedly confess.
Conversing with Brassman yielded a precious revelation Quirion Dryad sucks! It's a 1/1 for two; too much limitation. Creatureless GAT beat everything, as testing did reveal... It 8-1ed t00l, pre-board and post; it was just UNREAL!
Chats with Smmenen, however, turned me to back to the dark side, I planned to play GAT at this Open until someone forced me to become un-blind. Mike Hetherington 3-0ed me the night before the main event. So I gave up GAT for Gush TPS as if it was meant. My sideboard was for Fish and for Stax, Even though I didn't even use it once against the many lucksacks!
"Tomorrow is The Open! It's practically here!" Cried Jeff Folinus as he jumped on the bed without fear. So we all went to bed with uncertainty for tomorrow. Ironically, it would be Jeff who feels the most sorrow.
I would have had multiple byes if it was allowed to be, But could only have one with ten dollars added to the entrance fee. During round one, I had time to scout a little bit.. I even had time to go Duchess to take a shit. I saw a lot Flash and a ton of GAT. They'll both be on next year's top 16 playmat.
My round two opponent was Jeremy Beaver. This mirror match was ridiculous and gave us both a painful fever. Luckily, in the end, Shawn Anthony came out on top, Which was cooler than anything at the time, except for maybe kidz bop.
Dan Cunningham confidently played me in round three. I mulligan to four game one to just watch Dan pwn me. I do some awesome things with Repeal against Chalice in game two. Next game I just get the nutz and combo his face on turn two.
Chris Materewicz was the 2nd of 4 Blue Bell players that I would play today. I knew he was playing Flash, which is very close to a 50-50; pretty fucking gay. I somehow 2-0ed him though, supposedly via luck. I'm unstoppable... I'm as indestructible as a big rig truck!
Lo! Jeff Folinus would oppose me nex'! This match was tighter than the last time I had sex! Both games he was ahead of me on every resource imaginable. But both games I pulled out the win; I guess he's just very Tendrilsable.
Round 6 I will intentional draw with Josh Meckes, who was playing Flash looking around for Joe Davis because I would want a water but don't have any cash. I convert a lot of junk in my binder into two hundred and forty money; wishing now that I kept some of it so I can build more decks; it isn't very funny.
Next is Dan Carp, who is a Carp, and does what Carps do bess', He wanted to waste my time, so I just scooped to his first turn Duress. This guy is a douche bag, I don't really care about making this rhyme.
I heard that my top 16 opponent sucked ass. I truthfully thought that it would be an easy pass. I sat down accross from Rob Moreau, who I lost to last TMD, To lose to a bunch of bad luck and go negative with my entrance fee.
Gush TPS has so many insane plays! I could talk about how good it is for days and days! Test the deck extensively on MWS; I want the results. So hopefully by gen con, we'll work out all the nuts and bolts.
I know what most of you reading this poem want me to do So here is my Gush TPS list presented to you:
Gush TPS 4 Polluted Delta 2 Flooded Strand 3 Underground Sea 3 Volcanic Island 1 Tropical Island 1 Mox Sapphire 1 Mox Jet 1 Mox Ruby 1 Mox Emerald 1 Black Lotus 1 Lotus Petal 1 Mana Crypt 4 Dark Ritual 1 Fastbond 1 Yawgmoth's Will 1 Yawgmoth's Bargain 1 Red Elemental Blast 2 Pyroblast 4 Force of Will 4 Duress 4 Merchant Scroll 1 Misdirection 4 Gush 4 Brainstorm 1 Ancestral Recall 1 Demonic Tutor 1 Vampiric Tutor 1 Mystical Tutor 1 Tendrils of Agony 3 Repeal 1 Time Walk
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« Last Edit: July 27, 2007, 01:01:08 pm by desolutionist »
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orgcandman
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Providence protects children and idiots
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« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2007, 09:23:33 am » |
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This is the best report I've read in a long time. This may possibly even sit on the same pedestal as Kl0wn's report entitled "Type One Players Have All The Fun."
Bravo, sir. Bravo.
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Ball and ChainCongrats to the winners, but as we all know, everyone who went to this tournament was a winner Just to clarify...people name Aaron are amazing
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Hell of a Hat
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« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2007, 09:40:30 am » |
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most original report awardedit: was dumb with url tag
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« Last Edit: July 27, 2007, 09:48:25 am by Hell of a Hat »
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Team Junkbox: two dudes with our junk in a box.
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emidln
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« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2007, 09:44:58 am » |
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Awesome report Shawn! I'm glad this list worked out so well for. Since I've been privy to this list for awhile now, I noticed that Windfall was really good in here. Have you considered this over a MisD or red blast?
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BZK! - The Vintage Lightning War
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zeus-online
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« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2007, 10:17:51 am » |
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It was a pain to read, but nicely done....urh and i don't know about gush tps  Think i would prefer the dryads and 'togs /Zeus Edit: Chats with Smmenen, however, turned me to back to the dark side, I planned to play GAT at this Open until someone forced me to become un-blind.
Oh, you do realize that he will never acknowledge anything named "Tps" 
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The truth is an elephant described by three blind men.
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yespuhyren
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« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2007, 10:30:12 am » |
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Chats with Smmenen, however, turned me to back to the dark side, I planned to play GAT at this Open until someone forced me to become un-blind.
Oh, you do realize that he will never acknowledge anything named "Tps"  Not true, if you change 4 cards and call it Meandeck TPS he would.  And it would be revolutionary and better than any TPS deck ever. 
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Team Blitzkrieg: The Vintage Lightning War. TK: Tinker saccing Mox. Jamison: Hard cast FoW. TK: Ha! Tricked you! I'm out of targets
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pyr0ma5ta
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More cowbell
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« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2007, 10:30:46 am » |
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You win at life.
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Team Mishra's Jerkshop: Mess with the best, die like the rest.
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desolutionist
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« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2007, 10:52:41 am » |
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Someone asked me why bother going the storm route if Qurion Dryad is more synergistic with Gush: Gush is the best draw spell at the moment. Not playing it is the equivalent of not playing Skullclamp (when it was legal) in Mirrodin T2; you have to have a very good reason not to play it. The unique thing about Gush in this deck is that it isn't essential for the deck to be explosive. So instead of thinking of this deck as a Gush deck with combo implementations, think of it as a storm deck with really good blue draw spells. Fastbond is almost just incidental... I wasn't even playing it in my first version.
Regardless of synergy, Quirion Dryad is really bad because it's a 1/1 in the worst color in Vintage. As a 12/12, you're just better off playing two less spells and ending it with a Tendrils of Agony. If you're gradually increasing it's stats each turn, Tarmogoyf, which is obviously suboptimal, is probably better. Psychatog is the only good win condition in the deck but is usually worse than Tinker until turn 6+. Replace one of your Togs with a Tendrils of Agony and you'll realize that you're winning 70% of your games with it. Why not just go all out with storm?
@Brandon, I haven't thought about it... Why is it better than Timetwister?
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« Last Edit: July 27, 2007, 11:16:02 am by desolutionist »
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emidln
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« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2007, 10:57:34 am » |
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@Brandon, I haven't thought about it... Why is it better than Timetwister?
Better than Timetwister, I'm not sure. I'd play it in addition to Timetwister. We all know the power of turn 1 draw7 effects on enemy mull decisions (especially with Ichorid and Flash looming large in the format), but Windfall is also pretty synergistic while going off with Gush. Just by casting Gush you are guaranteed four cards off Windfall. I've found that this card is almost as good as Will if you hit 1-2 gush or happen to be on Bargain. While some might call that "win more", Gush TPS has the uncanny ability to fizzle under pressure (from say Fish or Stax) if you are forced to try to chain draw. Additionally, I'd have to question is Windfall would be worth the risk against Ichorid on the play (on the draw it's always bad). You have a 60% chance of them not having Bazaar. Of course, there's still a 40% chance that they get a bazaar anyway and start their turn 1 with dredgers and such already active. Is our matchup bad enough to take the gamble?
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« Last Edit: July 27, 2007, 11:11:08 am by emidln »
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BZK! - The Vintage Lightning War
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Anusien
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« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2007, 11:12:05 am » |
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Oh my god, this report is insane. Your challenge is to win GenCon and write about it in iambic pentameter.
Edit: or limericks
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Magic Level 3 Judge Southern USA Regional Coordinator The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.
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Mr. Nightmare
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Paper Tiger
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« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2007, 12:04:44 pm » |
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Additionally, I'd have to question is Windfall would be worth the risk against Ichorid on the play (on the draw it's always bad). You have a 60% chance of them not having Bazaar. Of course, there's still a 40% chance that they get a bazaar anyway and start their turn 1 with dredgers and such already active. Is our matchup bad enough to take the gamble?
Why wouldn't they just start the dredging off the Windfall draws?
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Twaun007
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For eight hundred years have I trained Jedi.
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« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2007, 12:30:02 pm » |
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Oh my god, this report is insane. Your challenge is to win GenCon and write about it in iambic pentameter.
Edit: or limericks
That report would be King!
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ashiXIII
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« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2007, 12:30:13 pm » |
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@Brandon, I haven't thought about it... Why is it better than Timetwister?
Better than Timetwister, I'm not sure. I'd play it in addition to Timetwister. We all know the power of turn 1 draw7 effects on enemy mull decisions (especially with Ichorid and Flash looming large in the format), but Windfall is also pretty synergistic while going off with Gush. Just by casting Gush you are guaranteed four cards off Windfall. I've found that this card is almost as good as Will if you hit 1-2 gush or happen to be on Bargain. While some might call that "win more", Gush TPS has the uncanny ability to fizzle under pressure (from say Fish or Stax) if you are forced to try to chain draw. Additionally, I'd have to question is Windfall would be worth the risk against Ichorid on the play (on the draw it's always bad). You have a 60% chance of them not having Bazaar. Of course, there's still a 40% chance that they get a bazaar anyway and start their turn 1 with dredgers and such already active. Is our matchup bad enough to take the gamble? What you really said in that post is "You win when you have Bargain, or when you Gush 3 times." K, thanks.
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Sextiger
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My nickname was born for these days
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« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2007, 12:43:37 pm » |
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It's spelled Moreau but regardless, this tourney report is epic.
Great job
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"After these years of arguing I've conceded that Merchant Scroll in particular can be an exception to this rule because it is a card that you NEVER want to see in multiples, under any circumstances. Merchant Scroll can be seen as restricted in a way because should you have 2 in a hand, only one is really useful (that is, only one can get Ancestral)."
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desolutionist
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« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2007, 01:02:47 pm » |
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It's spelled Moreau but regardless, this tourney report is epic.
Great job
I messaged you on IRC on how to spell your last name, but you didn't respond. It's fixed. @Brandon, I haven't thought about it... Why is it better than Timetwister?
Better than Timetwister, I'm not sure. I'd play it in addition to Timetwister. We all know the power of turn 1 draw7 effects on enemy mull decisions (especially with Ichorid and Flash looming large in the format), but Windfall is also pretty synergistic while going off with Gush. Just by casting Gush you are guaranteed four cards off Windfall. I've found that this card is almost as good as Will if you hit 1-2 gush or happen to be on Bargain. While some might call that "win more", Gush TPS has the uncanny ability to fizzle under pressure (from say Fish or Stax) if you are forced to try to chain draw. Additionally, I'd have to question is Windfall would be worth the risk against Ichorid on the play (on the draw it's always bad). You have a 60% chance of them not having Bazaar. Of course, there's still a 40% chance that they get a bazaar anyway and start their turn 1 with dredgers and such already active. Is our matchup bad enough to take the gamble? What you really said in that post is "You win when you have Bargain, or when you Gush 3 times." K, thanks. Yeah, Tolarian Winds is probably better at that point... :\
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Sextiger
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My nickname was born for these days
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« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2007, 01:33:52 pm » |
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I'm surprised you don't run like one warrens in the maindeck, it seems like it would be pretty godly in this list if you could find a spot.
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"After these years of arguing I've conceded that Merchant Scroll in particular can be an exception to this rule because it is a card that you NEVER want to see in multiples, under any circumstances. Merchant Scroll can be seen as restricted in a way because should you have 2 in a hand, only one is really useful (that is, only one can get Ancestral)."
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emidln
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« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2007, 02:02:33 pm » |
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Additionally, I'd have to question is Windfall would be worth the risk against Ichorid on the play (on the draw it's always bad). You have a 60% chance of them not having Bazaar. Of course, there's still a 40% chance that they get a bazaar anyway and start their turn 1 with dredgers and such already active. Is our matchup bad enough to take the gamble?
Why wouldn't they just start the dredging off the Windfall draws? They would start dredging, but they would not have discard outlets in bazaar and hopefully this slows them down signifcantly so you could steal a game 1, which otherwise looks like an awful matchup. My question is if the game 1 is bad enough that a 40% chance of basically auto-losing is worth it? I've ran into situations where I can gush twice and fizzle. This is mostly against pressure put up by Stax, but also against ICBM Oath and Fish variants. This was where Windfall first started getting played, and where I have seen it do the best. Even after a single Gush, you have an additional 4 cards in your hand that are likely pitchable, so it seems like it has potential in the deck. Also, outside of these specific situations, Windfall is still a bomb that has to be countered against control. This makes it significantly better than, say, Tolarian Winds, since it has uses to start a combo, as a countermagic bait.
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« Last Edit: July 27, 2007, 02:05:28 pm by emidln »
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BZK! - The Vintage Lightning War
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Dxfiler
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OHH YEAHHHH!
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« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2007, 02:45:08 pm » |
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Where's your sidebopard... I wanted to see if you actually have wumpus and empty or if you were just lying to me :p
Funny report, even though I'm not in it =(
- Dave Feinstein
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Die Hard Games is at a NEW LOCATION! 101 Higginson Ave #111 Lincoln, RI 02865 (401)312-3407 Our store is now twice as big and we always have something going on  DHGRI.com and Facebook.com/DHGRI
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cheetonian
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« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2007, 03:47:30 pm » |
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You win at life.
I second this. A masterpiece I must say. I'm also curious about the sideboard...
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Moxlotus
Teh Absolut Ballz
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Where the fuck are my pants?
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« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2007, 03:58:07 pm » |
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Next is Dan Carp, who is a Carp, and does what Carps do bess', He wanted to waste my time, so I just scooped to his first turn Duress. This guy is a douche bag, I don't really care about making this rhyme. So exactly what did Dan do for you to call him a douche bag. I mean, he can act like a DB on internet forums, but I've played at dozens of tournaments with him and I don't think I've ever seen him act like a DB at a tournament.
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TopSecret
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« Reply #20 on: July 27, 2007, 09:50:37 pm » |
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This report is awesome. I lol'd, like, three times.
Congrats on the finish.
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Ball and Chain
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LotusHead
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Team Vacaville
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« Reply #21 on: July 27, 2007, 09:57:28 pm » |
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It's Christmas in July!
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Negator13
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« Reply #22 on: July 27, 2007, 10:58:11 pm » |
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Congrats on your finish; I'm glad someone did well with this deck. I feel it has the potential to be the best deck in T1, as it abuses Gush better than GAT does and has a solid Flash matchup.
I played a very similar list to yours, going 5-2 and getting 25th because of shitty tiebreakers. I think the reason you did better than I is because A. I am terrible at magic and B. I overmetagamed for the Stax matchup, which was almost nonexistent, while you tweaked your deck very nicely to stomp on GAT and Flash. Where you ran REBs, Repeals, and MisD, with Volcs, I ran 3 basic Islands, MD Hurkyls and Chain of Vapor, and clunky situational cards like Timetwister, Necro, and Mind's Desire. You also had the balls to cut Mox Pearl and Sol Ring, which were necessary in my list to support Twister and Desire. As a result I had too many dead cards when I was trying to go off and not enough ways to stop my opponents from going broken.
I think your list is very close to correct, as it seems clear to me after the tournament that Twister and Necro are not good in this deck and that it doesn't need as many manasources as I ran. Mind's Desire was actually quite good for me although I don't know how effective it would be in your list without Crypt, Pearl, and the mass bounce.
The one card I wished I had all day was Brain Freeze. There were so many games where having a Brain Freeze in my deck would have allowed me to win on the spot with Merchant Scroll; instead I had to cross my fingers and blindly dig for the Tendrils with Gush etc, sometimes coming up short. I think it is as good or better than Tendrils, and I think the optimal configuration would have either 1 BF 1 Tendrils, or 2 BF. It is blue, is an Instant so you can Scroll it, it becomes "1U: Draw 3 for each spell played this turn" if you have Will or a tutor for Will in your hand, it randomly wins the game against Bomberman or GAT midcombo, it pitches to FoW and MisD, and it's only 2 mana.
I'm going to be testing your list with the following changes: -1 Pyroblast, -1 Volcanic Island, +1 Brain Freeze, +1 Island as I really like to have that basic against Wastelands or Blood Moon.
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desolutionist
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« Reply #23 on: July 27, 2007, 11:50:39 pm » |
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Next is Dan Carp, who is a Carp, and does what Carps do bess', He wanted to waste my time, so I just scooped to his first turn Duress. This guy is a douche bag, I don't really care about making this rhyme. So exactly what did Dan do for you to call him a douche bag. I mean, he can act like a DB on internet forums, but I've played at dozens of tournaments with him and I don't think I've ever seen him act like a DB at a tournament. We both made top 16 and he wanted to play it out instead of just drawing in. I wanted food, etc. so I just scooped. (not really a DB as much as annoying) Where's your sidebopard... I wanted to see if you actually have wumpus and empty or if you were just lying to me :p
Funny report, even though I'm not in it =(
- Dave Feinstein
Dude, I kept pushing this off and I just wanted to get it up... An ideal version would include you and some others. I didn't post the sideboard because I didn't use it. I mained for Flash, Bomberman, and GAT, which were the only decks I played against. 2 Thrashing Wumpus 3 Empty the Warrens 2 Rack and Ruin 1 Rebuild 1 Hurkyl's Recall 1 Island 4 Leyline of the Void 1 Echoing Truth The one card I wished I had all day was Brain Freeze. There were so many games where having a Brain Freeze in my deck would have allowed me to win on the spot with Merchant Scroll; instead I had to cross my fingers and blindly dig for the Tendrils with Gush etc, sometimes coming up short. I think it is as good or better than Tendrils, and I think the optimal configuration would have either 1 BF 1 Tendrils, or 2 BF. It is blue, is an Instant so you can Scroll it, it becomes "1U: Draw 3 for each spell played this turn" if you have Will or a tutor for Will in your hand, it randomly wins the game against Bomberman or GAT midcombo, it pitches to FoW and MisD, and it's only 2 mana.
Yeah BF is awesome. I'd be interested in Remand then too.
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« Last Edit: July 28, 2007, 08:57:21 am by desolutionist »
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Methuselahn
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« Reply #24 on: July 28, 2007, 04:46:21 pm » |
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Next is Dan Carp, who is a Carp, and does what Carps do bess', He wanted to waste my time, so I just scooped to his first turn Duress. This guy is a douche bag, I don't really care about making this rhyme. So exactly what did Dan do for you to call him a douche bag. I mean, he can act like a DB on internet forums, but I've played at dozens of tournaments with him and I don't think I've ever seen him act like a DB at a tournament. We both made top 16 and he wanted to play it out instead of just drawing in. I wanted food, etc. so I just scooped. (not really a DB as much as annoying) So he travels all that distance and, hypothetically, could be playing it out to boost a teamates chances to get in, all the while avoiding collusion, and he gets called a douchebag in your opening post?? Wha happen?
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Smmenen
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« Reply #25 on: July 28, 2007, 05:30:45 pm » |
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Regardless of synergy, Quirion Dryad is really bad because it's a 1/1 in the worst color in Vintage.
White is the worst color in Vintage. Anyway, while it may be technically true that Q. Dryad is only a 1/1, that's like saying Thirst for Knowledge draws 3 cards. It's technically, true, but meaningless. Ideas Unbound draws 3 cards and Goblin Welder is a 1/1. So what? The statement that Dryad is a 1/1 creature is a virtually meaningless statement in terms of telling you how it actually works in-game. Quirion Dryad isn't a bad card because it is a 1/1 and legions of magic players know it, from those who played Gro in Extended back in the day to Vintage players past and present. Is Dryad sometimes useless? Sure. But even if we assume that Dryad is a suboptimal card for whatever reason you advance, you haven't advanced a case that you've included better cards. You're playing THREE Repeal maindeck and THREE red elemental blasts. How are those cards any less limited than Dryad? In addition, your Dark Rituals essentially have only two spells they can support: Bargain and Tendrils. You've made Rits even more narrow than they were in any deck I've ever seen. You can say that those cards (repeals, Red blasts, and rits) are good for lots of reasons, but you can't make a logical argument that they are less narrow than Dryad in the sum total of relevant vintage scenarios. For every instance of where Dryad does nothing (say in the Flash match), I could come up with two more matches of where Red Blast does nothing or where Repeal is just junk. And we could play that game forever. As for your Gush Tendrils list, your overall argument that Dryad is bad just falls flat when I take a look at what you've included. If I were playing GAT against you, you would have very little chance without those Red Blasts. It's not that Dryad is bad, but that you've loaded more anti-blue disruption into the main so that you can actually win counterwars. It's fine to say that your deck is a great deck (it looks good), but your claims that is Dryad is unsubstantiated by what you've said. If Quirion Dryad is bad, it's because its a non-utility creature that can't do anything but attack and block. But that doesn't mean that the cards you've included are any less limited in the sum total of relevant type one situations. The night that Gush was unrestricted, my immediate instinct was to build Gush Tendrils, as I attempted to do. You've made it work by included alot of narrow cards, just as GAT has in playing Tog and Dryad. You've traded one set of narrow cards for another, without persuading anyone that it is a wholesale improvement. What makes these decks good aren't the elements you've included or the Dryads and Togs, it's the core 18 cards or so that make up the shell of any good Gush deck. It's these cards: 4 Force of Will 4 Brainstorm 4 Merchant Scroll 4 Gush 1 Ancestral recall 1 Time Walk 1 Demonic Tutor 1 Vampiric Tutor 1 Mystical Tutor 1 Yawg Will
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« Last Edit: July 28, 2007, 07:13:17 pm by Smmenen »
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Cunningbeaver
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« Reply #26 on: July 28, 2007, 10:08:50 pm » |
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As for your Gush Tendrils list, your overall argument that Dryad is bad just falls flat when I take a look at what you've included. If I were playing GAT against you, you would have very little chance without those Red Blasts. It's not that Dryad is bad, but that you've loaded more anti-blue disruption into the main so that you can actually win counterwars.
Is this not the same statement you have made on numerous occasions? About your own variations on GaT, that your maindecking of ReB gives you an edge? So that if you also are using them, would you then not also fall victim to the same pretenses you are laying out before him? What makes these decks good aren't the elements you've included or the Dryads and Togs, it's the core 18 cards or so that make up the shell of any good Gush deck.
It's these cards:
4 Force of Will 4 Brainstorm 4 Merchant Scroll 4 Gush 1 Ancestral recall 1 Time Walk 1 Demonic Tutor 1 Vampiric Tutor 1 Mystical Tutor 1 Yawg Will
And while these cards may be the shell of any good "gush" deck that doesn't always mean that the win conditions will fit any and all playstyles. One of the key things to ponder is that playing with any storm spell gives you the fleixbility to just "win now" even if in design and construction it feels like "win more." It gives you the option of being in the middle of a chain of spells and going "Oh shit, im lethal now." Instead of maybe being in a scenario where you have to find a dryad then find timewalk or a cunning wish for berserk. Sure all the cards may be narrow but using the least amount of narrow cards to get to an avenue of victory seems rational? Perhaps in theory the list seems narrow but we must remember that this deck is more of a hybrid than anything and if matched up shows a very compelling resemblence to your very own "Meandeck". As far as rit being able only to support bargain and tendrils, what happened to gush,merchant scroll,vampiric tutor, demonic tutor,duress, misdirection, and repeal? Perhaps not the best uses for the spell but I am sure more than one time a dark ritual has been used to gas up one of those spells. More than likely I am incorrect and thats fine with me, but from my own experience the deck feels superior to a list with dryad because of the "win now". Hey I'm not here to argue, but to discuss,learn and progress. And is white really worse than green? I think that is highly debateable. In any event great report and congratulations on a well played day.
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Smmenen
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« Reply #27 on: July 28, 2007, 10:19:16 pm » |
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I think you're missing my main point: the argument advanced by Desolutoinist that Quirion Dryad is a bad card is ridiculous as presented. The only real support provided (to put it in standard form) is that: 1) it is a 1/1 creature (which is a LOL bad reason to support the claim advanced) and 2) that it is too narrow. This reason is is undermined when you see that the cards that are replacing them are arguably just as narrow, just in other ways.
My criticism of that point has little ultimate bearing on which deck someone should play. It was merely a critique of the reasoning presented.
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desolutionist
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« Reply #28 on: July 30, 2007, 09:53:43 pm » |
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White is the worst color in Vintage. Balance Auriok Salvagers Swords to Plowshares Aven Mindcensor Jotun Grunt Meddling Mage Orim's Chant ... Clearly.  Anyway, while it may be technically true that Q. Dryad is only a 1/1, that's like saying Thirst for Knowledge draws 3 cards. It's technically, true, but meaningless. Ideas Unbound draws 3 cards and Goblin Welder is a 1/1. So what? The statement that Dryad is a 1/1 creature is a virtually meaningless statement in terms of telling you how it actually works in-game. Quirion Dryad -  Creature - Bad 1/1Yep, that's Q.Dryad... Oh wait, there is some more text: Whenever you play a white, blue, black, or red spell, put a +1/+1 counter on Quirion Dryad.So unless you have Yawgmoth's Will or Fastbond (win conditions on their own), it's slightly better than a Vinelasher Kudzu...? Does that versatility of being able to either be a bad DSC or a Tarmogoyf somehow make it good? I guess I just don't see, in a format where people won't even pay 2U for an indestructible 11/11 trampler, any creature strategy being optimal. But even if we assume that Dryad is a suboptimal card for whatever reason you advance, you haven't advanced a case that you've included better cards. One Tendrils of Agony makes all of the Psychatogs and Quirion Dryads useless outside of just being alternate kills. So wouldn't it make sense to just cut that crap for cards that can potentially improve your main kill? You're playing THREE Repeal maindeck and THREE red elemental blasts. How are those cards any less limited than Dryad? How is Repeal limited at all? It's probably the most versatile non-tutor spell in Vintage. Red Blasts was the obvious metagame call; they were only as limited as Force of Will throughout the day. In addition, your Dark Rituals essentially have only two spells they can support: Bargain and Tendrils. You've made Rits even more narrow than they were in any deck I've ever seen. This isn't Gifts; I can't just tutur up a bunch of artifact mana and Chain of Vapor them for mana. I almost always need Dark Ritual to cast Tendrils and they are obviously essential for Yawgmoth's Bargain and better Yawgmoth's Wills. It isn't optimal, but they're less dead than Dryads when I'm ending every game with a Tendrils. As for your Gush Tendrils list, your overall argument that Dryad is bad just falls flat when I take a look at what you've included. If I were playing GAT against you, you would have very little chance without those Red Blasts. It's not that Dryad is bad, but that you've loaded more anti-blue disruption into the main so that you can actually win counterwars. I hope it takes more than 3 Red Blasts to destroy GAT.
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LordHomerCat
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« Reply #29 on: July 31, 2007, 04:08:05 am » |
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Who said 3 blasts destroys Gro? I think repeal is a questionable choice because it doesn't really do much. Like, against Shops, its pretty hard to repeal anything worthwhile (4 mana to bounce your sphere? Nice). If you are just cycling it on moxes most of the time, then Sleight or Opt seems better. If you plan to use it bouncing dryads, then it seems as narrow or moreson than Dryad herself. I don't know about you, but my Gush decks tend to be pretty mana-light (I see you are running around 20 sources as well), which makes it pretty hard to repeal anything that costs more than 1 or 2 tops. Honestly, I just don't see why spending a turn casting Repulse on a dryad is any worse than just casting Dryad itself along with a brainstorm or Opt or something. One actually advances you towards winning the game, the other is a random cantrip. I guess I'm curious why Repeal is so much stronger.
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Team Meandeck Team Serious LordHomerCat is just mean, and isnt really justifying his statements very well, is he?
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