Keeper-ish 4cControl

[EKM_Ichorid]

I started playing with a list last week. Here's what I've got:



// Lands
    4  Polluted Delta
    1  Tundra
    3  Volcanic Island
    4  City of Brass
    4  Underground Sea
    1  Library of Alexandria

// Creatures
    3  Gorilla Shaman
    3  Dimir Cutpurse

// Spells
    4  Force of Will
    2  Merchant Scroll
    3  Duress
    1  Swords to Plowshares
    1  Ancestral Recall
    3  Brainstorm
    3  Mana Drain
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Yawgmoth's Will
    2  Cunning Wish
    1  Mox Emerald
    2  Mind Twist
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Lotus Petal
    1  Sol Ring
    1  Demonic Tutor
    1  Vampiric Tutor
    1  Mystical Tutor
    1  Extirpate
    1  Chain of Vapor
    2  Empty the Warrens

// Sideboard
SB: 1  Duress
SB: 1  Swords to Plowshares
SB: 4  Leyline of the Void
SB: 2  Misdirection
SB: 1  Echoing Truth
SB: 1  Extirpate
SB: 2  Massacre
SB: 1  Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1  Empty the Warrens
SB: 1  Disenchant

The deck had a good disruption package and basically uses it early and then drops a bomb, aka Twist for their hand. There's a wishboard for increased flexibility. It does well against combo and control, but terrible against random aggro (like R/G beatz or Goblins). I'm thinking of a single Moat to be old-school, or adding in TinkerPlatz. Usually EtW hits for 2-3 storm, which is all that is needed. Cutpurse is awesome card advantage engine, but again it is bad versus aggro. I feel like Ichorid is a 2-1 match almost every time. Fish is decent because I can match beats and have a better disruption package (in my opinion). Flash is good because I have alot of disruption against them and can chump Slivers. GAT is a bit tougher but my win can come earlier and if you can counter/kill a Dryad you can tutor for Extirpate aka GG. Stax is decent because I can rush permenants with EtW and moxen and I can kill theirs with Shaman, plus Wish for Recall. Long/Gifts/TPS/Random storm is an awesome match up because if I take them to turn 3 or 4 I can always win, and I almost always can stall it that long. I haven't been able to test against Bomberman but I'm assuming it's my hardest match.

And if someone could help me fit in Engineered Explosives, I'd love them forever.

[netherspirit]

How about replacing Extirpate with Engineered Explosives? I really can't see Extirpate being that useful as there's only one in the maindeck. It would probably be good in the sideboard, so that you have two, but I don't see much point in it in the maindeck.

I'd add Time Walk if I were you, it's great for getting in extra attacks with your Dimir Cutpurses or goblin tokens.

[Ufactor]

Since we're just randomly just posting Keeper decklists, I might as well show mine:

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Duress
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Skeletal Scrying

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Balance
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Platinum Angel
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will

1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
2 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
4 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
2 Tundra
4 Underground Sea

SB: 1 Darksteel Colossus
SB: 1 Deep Analysis
SB: 1 Duress
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 4 Serenity

...0 Cunning Wish  , because it doesn't do anything except get pitched to FoW.  Well, except for that hot tech that came from Team Ball and Chain...shhhh

[EKM_Ichorid]

Since we're just randomly just posting Keeper decklists, I might as well show mine:

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Duress
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Skeletal Scrying

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Balance
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Platinum Angel
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will

1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
2 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
4 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
2 Tundra
4 Underground Sea

SB: 1 Darksteel Colossus
SB: 1 Deep Analysis
SB: 1 Duress
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 4 Serenity

...0 Cunning Wish  , because it doesn't do anything except get pitched to FoW.  Well, except for that hot tech that came from Team Ball and Chain...shhhh

That isn't Keeper. That's just a control deck.

[MirariKnight]

That isn't Keeper. That's just a control deck.

It most definately is Keeper, except for the fact that it has only 1 win condition.
As for your list, I would suggest running Dark Confidant, the 4th Drain, Tinker/DSC of Platinum Angel, and taking out an Empty the Warrens, Extirpate, Mind Twists, and Merchant Scrolls. That lets you add the last Duress, Brainstorm and lets you run Engineered Explosives. You could also up the StP count and run Balance as well, and also Skeletal Scrying is so good in this deck. The you can drop a Volcanic Island for a Tundra, then drop the Cities of Brass for 2 Flooded Strands and some basic Islands. I also happen to love Decree of Justice in this deck, I think it is much better than Empty the Warrens, but that's up to you, although running it would let you get rid of red completely.
Those are just suggestions though you need take into account what decks you will be facing with it, so there is no "right" build of this deck I would say.

[Zherbus]

I'm 2 inches from locking this topic.

EKM, your last post was totally useless. It served no purpose, and his deck shared just as much with "Keeper" as yours. But the point is, that Keeper is an absolute term that I got rid of successfully for a while (but like everything evil, it never dies). It just plain doesn't make sense.

Firstly, it references a Mike Long deck from almost 10 years ago with Elemental Augury. Secondly, it's such an ambiguous name that bringing it up as a point of conversation is an utter waste of time. Things are simpler to worry more about the deck not sucking (the archetype on a whole, not anyone's specific list), and less about what is Keeper.

Consider that a brief lesson is awful naming conventions and the perils of using them. Also, consider this a verbal warning for the spammish nature of your post.

I suggest this thread get some content worth reading and replying to. Otherwise, I'm going to lock it so it falls out of sight.

My 2 cents:

The current metagame is too fast for Dark Confidant. If it's too fast for Dark Confidant, it's certainly WAY too fast for Dimir Cutpurse. Your plan against GaT is more of a fantasy than a reality. I did the Extirpate thing and it never falls into place in practice, like you'd like to think it would in theory. 4 Force of Will is NO LONGER ENOUGH free counters for any deck to run comfortably. If Flash runs twice as many free counters, it stacks the odds against you. In my version, I run this as a disruption suite:

    4 Force of Will
    2 Misdirection
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Mana Drain
    2 Chalice of the Void
    3 Duress

THAT is the level of dedication to disruption that you have to play in order to properly assume the defensive.

[EKM_Ichorid]

I'm 2 inches from locking this topic.

EKM, your last post was totally useless. It served no purpose, and his deck shared just as much with "Keeper" as yours. But the point is, that Keeper is an absolute term that I got rid of successfully for a while (but like everything evil, it never dies). It just plain doesn't make sense.

Firstly, it references a Mike Long deck from almost 10 years ago with Elemental Augury. Secondly, it's such an ambiguous name that bringing it up as a point of conversation is an utter waste of time. Things are simpler to worry more about the deck not sucking (the archetype on a whole, not anyone's specific list), and less about what is Keeper.

Consider that a brief lesson is awful naming conventions and the perils of using them. Also, consider this a verbal warning for the spammish nature of your post.

I suggest this thread get some content worth reading and replying to. Otherwise, I'm going to lock it so it falls out of sight.

My 2 cents:

The current metagame is too fast for Dark Confidant. If it's too fast for Dark Confidant, it's certainly WAY too fast for Dimir Cutpurse. Your plan against GaT is more of a fantasy than a reality. I did the Extirpate thing and it never falls into place in practice, like you'd like to think it would in theory. 4 Force of Will is NO LONGER ENOUGH free counters for any deck to run comfortably. If Flash runs twice as many free counters, it stacks the odds against you. In my version, I run this as a disruption suite:

    4 Force of Will
    2 Misdirection
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Mana Drain
    2 Chalice of the Void
    3 Duress

THAT is the level of dedication to disruption that you have to play in order to properly assume the defensive.

I don't quite understand why you have Brainstorm in your disruption package. The only differences in our packages are 2 Chalice, 1 Drain, and 2 MD Misdirection. I have 2 Misdirection in the side because I find it useful rarely (counter wars and Ancestral Recalls). So far I really haven't had that much of a problem because game 2 I can board up to 4 Duress 2 Misdirection 3 Mana Drain 4 Force of Will 2 Mind Twist along with 2 StP 2 Echoing Truth to slow down if they do get out the Slivers.

Cutpurse is usually cast turn 2. It is slow, I know. But once it starts hitting the swing in card advantage is well worth it. Trinket Mage is slow on paper, but the deck utilizing it still does well. I have alot of disruption and can protect/stop threats long enough to get the Cutpurse online.

I'm playing EtW because it can help chump Slivers and Dryads and seems less venerable then TinkerPlatz with the current sideboards that Ichorid, GAT, and Flash are playing. TinkerPlatz also takes two spots for what is pretty much one kill, whereas EtW is a one card slot that just needs another spell or two to be cast. I've been playtesting with it as a single to make room for Explosives and it's working fine.

Mind Twist is just as much a bomb now as it used to be. Barring Ichorid, most decks do not want you to cast a Twist for 2 or 3. When you start with a turn 1 Duress, turn 2 Mox Monkey, turn 3 Twist, you can secure control with ease. Even if it's Forced, you take out two cards. Misdirection still is not popular enough to make it risky.

Sorry about the "not Keeper comment". Where I play, Keeper refers to a 4-5c Control deck that was based on a solid tutoring base to find huge bombs and answers in any situation. I didn't see that in Ufactor's deck. That was my misunderstanding.

I think Extirpate is a great MD singleton because it's a good responce to Will, and also is just amazing if you can counter a Dryad/Flash/Oath. It seals the deal after a Duress for the second two, and spells GG after a blown Engineered Explosive against GAT.

Scroll is an awesome tutor because it grabs Mystical Tutor, Ancestral Recall, Chain of Vapor, or Force/Drain. It can effectively tutor for a Bomb, a draw engine, a removal spell/combo enginge, or a hard counter. That's amazing flexibility for just 1U, easily cast turn 1 if needed.

[cophos]

I hope I'll be able to participate in this thread in a more elaborate manner later. Nevetheless I'd like to add a couple of points here:

@EKM:
Your build is way to clunky.
As Zherbus already pointed out correctly Cutpurse is simply not playable right now. I can see, why you would want to run a source of steady cardadvantage, but DimirCP's not the way to go. One has to spend the early few turns playing some kind of disruption, if you fail to do that and spending your resources playing a cc3 gold Spell that doesn't effect the game state immediately you'll get eaten alive.

Where I play, Keeper refers to a 4-5c Control deck that was based on a solid tutoring base to find huge bombs and answers in any situation

This may be a solid approach in general, but right now the Top Tier decks are so 'blisteringly' fast, that one just doesn't have the time, to tutor up the answer fo any specific threat. Regardless of what Keeper's supposed to be doing, the deck has to incorporate proactive disruption elements in favor of the slower reactive approach, in order to withstand the power of Flash, GAT et cetera.
3 Duress is a solid starting point, but I'd strongly suggest adding another one. (and having a close look at zherbus suggestions regarding the Disruption package.)

Gorilla Shaman isn't that hot at the moment. The two most powerful decks in the format simply do not care about it. Playing three of them is a horrendous waste of space. I'd suggest no running more than one in pretty much every metagame.

3 Brainstorms / Drains: These numbers  seem to be huge mistakes to me: To be fair, Drain's not at its peak atm, nevertheless it's a particularly crucial element in this deck.
Running less than 4 Brainstorms is simply wrong in this deck. (Furthermore it's an integral part of your protection these days, because one has to be able to find a Force/Drain asap when facing a deck like Flash  combo.)

1 Extirpate/Chain/sword: In order to survive you have to cut these situational one-offs in favor of strong pro-active Disruption.

Mind Twist is just as much a bomb now as it used to be

That's outright wrong. The count of maindeck Misdirections was probably never higher than it is right now. Casting Mind Twist (even with counter backup) was never more dangerous. As much as I like the card myself I think it's the correct decision to cut it entirely at the moment. (I think I'd run one as a silver bullet/tutor target though. However it's wrong to rely on it as a main part of your game plan.)

@Ufactor:
Although I disagree with several of you card choises (e.g. Daze, which is simply unplayable in this deck,) I think you made some very interesting and vital additions:
EE's a very good card at the moment, handling a wide range of problematic strategies. (Slivers, Fishes, Dryads..)
Cutting Cunning Wishes is the right call I think. Most of the time one's wishing for either an answer to a problematic creature or a draw spell (to sink drain mana into). By adding EE's and the fourth Scrying you pretty much get the same result. (Loosing an answer for DSC is a bit nasty though, despite Tinker not being the most dangerous threat right now.) 

Things are simpler to worry more about the deck not sucking (the archetype on a whole, not anyone's specific list), and less about what is Keeper.

This is indeed the cardinal question. Is the archetype inherently flawed? I don't think so. But there are lots of specific influences and trends that constituted the state of todays 4cc. One among others is the efficiency of the decks answers versus opposing threats. Cards like StPS and Mana Drain in particular were better than pretty much everything an opponent could possibly play. (Just look at the decks 4cc faced a couple years ago: UR Gay Fish, Academy.dec etc.) Todays metagame is extremely fast, most decks are well equipped and developed. (Combo Decks e.g. became nightmare Matchups for most Drain decks, whereas they used to loose to themselves a couple years ago.) Maintaining the control role in an evironment like this ist simply really hard.
On the other hand 4cc was pretty much the first combo/control deck that ever existed. (As soon as Yawgmoth's Will was included.) From this point on the deck started to ignore threats in favor of setting up a huge Will Turn. Other decks started to adapt this idea (Gifts, Slaver, ..) and dismissed the controlish element almost completely. (Just look at the most recent exclusion of Mana Drain in favor of Dark Ritual in Gift Builds.) As a consequence it could be argued that Keeper died as soon as Gifts and Slaver rose to the top. These decks did, what Keeper tried to do as soon as Will was released, just way better than The Deck.

Keeper always had the abbility to cast silver bullets, that completely annihilated an archetype. (Despite most decks being far more resilient and diverse than a couple years ago, this strategy may be still viable,  granted, that the bullets are broken enough. (Crucible plus Mine, Balance and so on.))

The first concept can't be denied. 4cc will always be of ambigious natur, the second one, which truly identifies the archetype, must be carefully thought through. Is playing bullets better than fully concentrating on an proactive approach?

I don't have time to answer this at the moment, but I'll gladly return to this discussion later.

[Zherbus]

I don't quite understand why you have Brainstorm in your disruption package.

Sorry, typo. I clipped that section out of my list which I always lump Brainstorm with for logistics.

The only differences in our packages are 2 Chalice, 1 Drain, and 2 MD Misdirection. I have 2 Misdirection in the side because I find it useful rarely (counter wars and Ancestral Recalls).

That's five more cards. Specifically, that's four more cards that hurt Flash on turn 1. I don't see how "only" is a viable adjective in your comment. Also, Mind Twist is a great card and all, but this is not the Vintage environment for it. To use it effectively, without a crazy Black Lotus draw, you need to hit turn 2 and Mana Drain something. To use it realistically, you need to meet the aforementioned conditions with counter backup. I'm not sure which Vintage you've been playtesting, but MIND TWIST isn't a reliable solution.

Cutpurse is usually cast turn 2. It is slow, I know. But once it starts hitting the swing in card advantage is well worth it. Trinket Mage is slow on paper, but the deck utilizing it still does well. I have alot of disruption and can protect/stop threats long enough to get the Cutpurse online.

So which is it? Are you holding two blue open on turn 2, or are you misassigning your role as the beatdown in every matchup you should not be.

Multi-color control is ALWAYS the control deck with very few and rare exceptions. To think otherwise is going to lose a ton of games.

I'm playing EtW because it can help chump Slivers and Dryads.

In a turn 1 format, such as it is, I would hate to topdeck an Empty the Warrens without being able to blow it for at least 8 tokens on turn 1. This pretty much suffers in many of the ways Mind Twist suffers.

I think Extirpate is a great MD singleton because it's a good responce to Will, and also is just amazing if you can counter a Dryad/Flash/Oath. It seals the deal after a Duress for the second two, and spells GG after a blown Engineered Explosive against GAT.

Ehhhh. They run Togs too. I wouldn't lean on that too heavily. I mean, if they allow you to kill their 6/6 Dryad

It is good against Flash if you can stop the Flash, I guess. But if you can stop Flash from going off, you usually won already.

[Ufactor]

e.g. Daze, which is simply unplayable in this deck

If you want to trade these in for Misdirection/Chalice, it would not be the wrong choice.  Chalice for zero, however, is less good in an environment where the decks to beat can use ESG to force their combo through (Flash) or Fastbond (GAT, obv).

Daze is a highly personal choice that I use aggressively to gain tempo. Whatever the opponent wants to play first will get countered, or they pass me the turn.  Later in the game, it lets me tap out more than I normally would (particularly for massive Skeletal Scryings).

[EKM_Ichorid]

You see the problem I've been having is not the initial Dryad or Flash, but the follow-up. Flash can easily rebuild with Scroll and Mystical, so I feel like Extirpate is good inclusion. As decks focus more on specific kills, I think the card is becoming more powerful.

Misdirection only hurts Flash if your holding a counter also. If you have UU open, you can Drain. Still, that means you have had two main phases OR have drew a Lotus/Sapphire/Petal. If you don't have the Drain, you need FOUR blue cards, one being Force and the other being Misdirection. I'm not sold on it's merit maindeck.

And I usually don't tap out for Cutpurse unless I'm not holding Drain, or I don't want them to think I'm holding Drain.

I can try to work on the inclusion of Chalice, but right now I had been looking at the CoV/Will/EtW combinations as a good win, and Chalice usually shuts that off. I don't know, I'll see what happens. I'm looking at a Stackless Stax deck right now also, so we'll see.

[MirariKnight]

You see the problem I've been having is not the initial Dryad or Flash, but the follow-up. Flash can easily rebuild with Scroll and Mystical, so I feel like Extirpate is good inclusion. As decks focus more on specific kills, I think the card is becoming more powerful.

Misdirection only hurts Flash if your holding a counter also. If you have UU open, you can Drain. Still, that means you have had two main phases OR have drew a Lotus/Sapphire/Petal. If you don't have the Drain, you need FOUR blue cards, one being Force and the other being Misdirection. I'm not sold on it's merit maindeck.

And I usually don't tap out for Cutpurse unless I'm not holding Drain, or I don't want them to think I'm holding Drain.

I can try to work on the inclusion of Chalice, but right now I had been looking at the CoV/Will/EtW combinations as a good win, and Chalice usually shuts that off. I don't know, I'll see what happens. I'm looking at a Stackless Stax deck right now also, so we'll see.

Stopping the initial Flash is critical, and sometimes flat out wins (Pacts). Although you are technically correct about MisD, Flash often goes off with counter backup, and MisD is a lot better than nothing. You need to be able to do something turn 0 the way the format is now. Also, what good is a Cutpurse that sits in your hand then? This deck is not the aggro ever really, so wouldn't you be better off with something else in your hand that can do something (like MisD, the Last Drain and Brainstorm, Duress, etc). If Chalice is going to stop you from winning with CoV that means it's set on 0, so just bounce it with CoV before you do the mana thing. That being said, I don't know how good Chalice is currently, but its not horrible.

Edit: I was thinking that seeing how critical it is to be able to intereact early, wouldn't the spots for Chalice be better as maindeck Leylines? They are really effective against a lot of good decks as you all know, and having them maindeck is something that I wonder why we dont see more of. They are semi castable in here too, although that is obviously a weak argument. If you are going to be dropping Chalice at 0 most of the time, these seem like a similar slot with a more broad application. They also free up the board a little.

[Toad]

Daze is a highly personal choice that I use aggressively to gain tempo.

With an extremely low clock and your need for loads of land on the board, I fail to see how Daze will generate Tempo on your side.

Later in the game, it lets me tap out more than I normally would (particularly for massive Skeletal Scryings).

If its late game, opponent has loads of lands on the board. What do you think you'll be able to catch with Daze at that point? And hardcast Darksteel Colossus with only 11 mana available? Daze is just atrocious in Control. If you want a better cheap disruption package, try Disrupt. Disrupt is hot.

[Purple Hat]

isn't decree still gonna be better than empty in this deck?  It's less mana efficient but it's an uncounterable instant and draws a card.  if you somehow manage to have 5 mana vs flash decree could really mess them up.

[MirariKnight]

isn't decree still gonna be better than empty in this deck?  It's less mana efficient but it's an uncounterable instant and draws a card.  if you somehow manage to have 5 mana vs flash decree could really mess them up.

I completely agree with this. I love Decree in this deck, and cutting Empty allows you to cut red (how good is Gorilla Shaman anyway?), which will give it a much better mana base, and you don't have to sac all your lands for storm.

[Zherbus]

isn't decree still gonna be better than empty in this deck?  It's less mana efficient but it's an uncounterable instant and draws a card.  if you somehow manage to have 5 mana vs flash decree could really mess them up.

Decree is probably better, yeah, but both are pretty unplayable in this deck.

You see the problem I've been having is not the initial Dryad or Flash, but the follow-up. Flash can easily rebuild with Scroll and Mystical, so I feel like Extirpate is good inclusion. As decks focus more on specific kills, I think the card is becoming more powerful.

So you want to sacrifice the early game for more late game power? I think control does enough of this already.

Misdirection only hurts Flash if your holding a counter also. If you have UU open, you can Drain. Still, that means you have had two main phases OR have drew a Lotus/Sapphire/Petal. If you don't have the Drain, you need FOUR blue cards, one being Force and the other being Misdirection. I'm not sold on it's merit maindeck.

Misdirection is crucial as a second back up counter (redirect your Pact on my FoW to your Flash) and against Merchant Scroll->Ancestral Recall based strategies.

I was thinking that seeing how critical it is to be able to intereact early, wouldn't the spots for Chalice be better as maindeck Leylines?

Chalice isn't just there for Flash. In fact, when I initially included it back in April as a 3-of), it was basically for every other deck. Also, Leyline maindeck is just... a waste. I mean, if Goblins wants to run it and lean on the fact that they can capitalize on the low creature removal rate in the format, then that's fun. It'd help against Flash and the way less popular Ichorid, but every hand you draw with it is like an auto-mulligan to 6 when not playing those decks. Chalice has uses early game and late game.

[Implacable]

isn't decree still gonna be better than empty in this deck?  It's less mana efficient but it's an uncounterable instant and draws a card.  if you somehow manage to have 5 mana vs flash decree could really mess them up.

I completely agree with this. I love Decree in this deck, and cutting Empty allows you to cut red (how good is Gorilla Shaman anyway?), which will give it a much better mana base, and you don't have to sac all your lands for storm.

Well, as a note, the number one reason to play Red isn't called Gorilla Shaman: it's Red Elemental Blast.

[Ufactor]

SEE BELOW

[MirariKnight]

isn't decree still gonna be better than empty in this deck?  It's less mana efficient but it's an uncounterable instant and draws a card.  if you somehow manage to have 5 mana vs flash decree could really mess them up.

I completely agree with this. I love Decree in this deck, and cutting Empty allows you to cut red (how good is Gorilla Shaman anyway?), which will give it a much better mana base, and you don't have to sac all your lands for storm.

Well, as a note, the number one reason to play Red isn't called Gorilla Shaman: it's Red Elemental Blast.

I agree with this however he doesn't run those either, and in the list he has red is totally unneeded in my opinion, especially with Decree. There are strong white and black and blue cards that aren't in the list (Balance, last Brainstorm, Duress, Drain, Decree, Scrying etc) that should go in before thinking of the 4th color.

[MaxxMatt]

I'm going to rearrange all the issues said until now to make a bit of order.
Zherbus, me & other players traced good guidelines about what can be considered "playing a pure control deck" at now.
If you read Zherbus' blogspot here on TMD you'll find a lot of answeres and hot tips to start building a 4 or 5 color control deck.

Indeed, having a stable and solid skeleton is key.
Zherbus wrote about which cards can't be considered "optionals" among the protections

(14)
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
3 Duress
3 Chalice of the Void

But what about the rest of the pile?
Which bombs and restricted cards can be used?

IMHO, these are the untouchable ones

(8)
4 Brainstorm
1 Timetwister
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Time Walk

(5)
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Burning Wish
1 Cunning Wish
1 Tinker

(2)
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Platinum Angel

(5)
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Crucible of the Worlds
1 Stripmine
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Extirpate

Sideboard (8)
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Rack & Ruin
1 Balance
1 Mindtwist
1 Gush


In the end, drawers and restricted cards are really easy to choose.
There are even commonly used strategies that can be simply added as winning routines here because of the control plan of the deck.
TTwister & TCrypt or Duress & Extirpate or CoW & Strip or Gorilla & CotV, all those cards have nice effects that can positivly interact each other without being too much useless when drawn singlehandely

It is another Tinker.dec again: you have disruptions, tutors and enough targets to optimize this bomb for almost forever.

At now, which cards can be added to imrove the deck again and again?

Including a pretty standard 24_mana_base, I can see that 14+5+5+2+8, the remaining slots are only 2.
Choices are enough to leave people thinking about different additions  for almost forever.

The suggestions I can give to you are:

1)
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Trinisphere

With this last additions, you are going to effectiverly lock opponents because of CoW and CotVs.
When these elements hit to board together, there are a lot of chances that you rooponent iwl never recover from that position.

2)
2 Skeletal Scrying

I thought about them when building a version with more CWishes ( at least 2 if not 3 ) and when I added the TCrypt+TTwister minicombo.
We can recycle spells RFGed from the game, grab sideboarded bombs or use it to refill your hand. It is a strong drawer and a good choice against Combo and Control


3)
0/1/2 Misdirection
0/1/2 Mindtwist
0/1/2 Engineered Explosives

In  specifics metagames, those cards can be considered worth their inclusion.
A lot of tokens to face and board control to achieve can be dealt with E.E.s
Heavy combo and control fields can be faced in a safer way addint additional counters for our bombs's protection
In a low density Mis-D metagame, this deck can play additional disruption to improve asimmetrical effects ( maybe TTWister can be cut to make room for them without selfexplaining anti-sinergies ).

Feel free to add more hints about the possible deck's deconstruction of a 2007_Keeperish_Deck

MaxxMatt

[breed]

@MaxxMatt: your skeleton seems quite good. The only things that I would remove are Tormod's Crypt and Extirpate. I think they more or less "metagame cards". So they are not auto inclusion.

Here my current deck list:

// Counters
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain

// Disrupt
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Duress

// Draw
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Confident

// Bombs
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Balance

// Tutors
2 Cunning Wish
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor

// Kill
1 Tinker
1 Platinum Angel
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Gorilla Shaman

// Mana
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl

1 Library of Alexandria
4 Flooded Strand
2 Wasteland
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Strip Mine

// Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Stifle
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Sword to Plowshares
1 Fire/Ice
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Disenchant
1 Coffin Purge

So, the main addition to the deck is Dark Confident. I thinks that it's one of the best way to get card advantage. Also playing 3 CotV and 3 Duress helps a lot against Combo (Flash is indeed the most used combo deck). I keep a toolbox using 2 Cunning Wish, with a lot of utility cards like Fire/Ice, Sword and so on. Main deck, I don't use Skeletal but I can use it after a Wish.

The kill is no more Decree, I use Tinker/Platz or Tinker/DSC. I can also kill using Confident. I'm thinking about removing DSC, but I'm not sure. Maybe playing some Sword to Plowshares maindeck will be usefull to remove a Confident where I'm low in life. Also I play Crucible as I really love this card.

Any constructive comments are appreciated.

About my metagame: some rogue creatures decks, combo, goblins, CS. Not so much Fish or Stacks.

[cophos]

Dark Confidant simly doesn't do anything early in the game. You want to spend the early few turns disrupting your opponent and slow the game down to level your deck's able to compete. If you cast a Confidant during these crucial turns instead of duressing your opponent and keeping drain mana up you're going to loose the game vs. a deck like flash or Gat, inevitably.

Well, same could be said about Skeletal Scrying, the difference however's that you gain an advantage as soon as you cast scrying. After disrupting your opponent for 2 or 3 turns you'll usually be able to cast a scrying for three or four to refill your  resources. Casting a Confidant in this spot won't strenghten your position immediately and grant your opponent time to rebuild.

In a nutshell you want to cast Confidant as soon as possible which causes a horrendous strategic leak in your decks overal strategy.

@Max:
With all respsect, your build bears some major design flaws. (And I'm not even talking about evidently wrong cardchoises like Timetwister.)
Your deck's packed full of one-offs.  As I mentioned before I don't think that's the way to go right now. In order to stay competitive the deck has to sacrifice diversity in favor of consistency: Your disruption package's very solid, but after the first few turns you're hand will be clogged up with situational cards. I see that you have Tutors to fetch what you need in every given situation, but without any  (!) source of carddraw besides Ancestral Recall and .. Twister you'll inevitably fall behind.

[breed]

Of course, I dont cast Confident too early in the game. I play Chalice/Duress/Drain before casting it. But I may have wrong.

 

[cophos]

Of course, I dont cast Confident too early in the game. I play Chalice/Duress/Drain before casting it. But I may have wrong.

 

Well that's the catch I mentioned: Confidant is at its best when cast as early as possible, something this deck can't afford to do. Later in the game he's simply worse than an catual draw spell, because moste of the time you want to find answers asap. Furthermore Keeper runs lots of very situational cards, suited to handle specific situations. A big Scrying grants a deep look into your deck and will increase your chances of finding a certain card. Confidant provides a single card per turn: Good luck in finding what you need..  (As a consequence Confidant's far better in decks that profit from a steady stream of (rather homogeneous) CA. (Like Confidant Tendrils (Moxen, Rituals.), Fish (additional pieces of disruption) or Mono U'ish decks (counterspells.))

[MaxxMatt]

@cophos

Think about playing with another tutor maindeck ( the last playable one here is Vampiric Tutor, better than Imperial Seal because Instant ).
Think about being able to set up strong defences and being able to tutor for "soft lock" pieces.
Think about being able to resolve them because your strategy progressively deprive opponents of solutions and resources.
A lot among your cards are "1 for X" and not easily hated out ( T.Crypt, Extirpate, Shaman, CoW, CotV ).

You are going to trade an initial cards advantage ( counters, disruptions and cheap drawers ) with a SOLID midgame board and resources advantage.

I'm a fan, when possible, of being able to outplay opponents.
Aside with tutors' choices, TTwister alone and all those singletons, there is a STRONG strategy that can be applied with foresight against almost any opponent.

I don't choose casually singletons.

TCrypt is here because of Ichirid and Grave.decs in general

TTwister has been added because of resources recursion and because when you deprive opponents of their own grave ( TCrypt ), sets of 4of ( Extirpate ) or when you flood their grave with redundant and clunky midgame cards ( eaten Moxen, stripped lands ) you transform TTwister virtually in an asimmetrical spell.

Extirpate is good in conjuction with Duress and when opponents, because of denial strategy, possibly will discard crucial spells. On the other hand, it is good on its own because it can easily ruin opponents' winning plans passing through topdeck tutors.

FoF is an additional drawer aside with BSs, Ancestral and possibly TTwister. In the remaining two slots you can add additional drawers in order to satisfy your own cards' advantage porpouse. Sideboard can see Gushes or Skeletals too so you can easily see how the deck, without the addition of DConfidants can play "more drawers than the lone ARecall".

If those two last cards are Skeletal Scrying and Cunning Wish, your own game plan against Control and Combo deck is to apply an early pressure to them with redundant control elements and then choose ( with Tutors ) the needed singleton to abuse of. It isn't simple, because you have to know your opponent/deck as well as your won deck but from my perspective, this knowledge is "part of the game" and not an addendum.

All the possible choices are firing and pointing out exactly THIS CURRENT metagame.
I cannot build an universal or static deck. I can play a different pile from week to week, month to month.
At now, those cards are better than others to be abused in control strategies.

For the sake of completeness, I'll end writing the exact list I'm testing now.

(14)
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
3 Duress
3 Chalice of the Void

(9)
4 Brainstorm
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Timetwister
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Time Walk

(7)
2 Cunning Wish
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Burning Wish
1 Tinker

(2)
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Platinum Angel

(5)
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Crucible of the Worlds
1 Stripmine
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Extirpate

(23)
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Undeground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt

(!5) - Sideboard
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Rack & Ruin
1 Balance
1 Mindtwist
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Gush
1 Extirpate
1 Hurkylls' Recall
1 Chain of Vapors
1 Echoing Truth
1 Sundering Titan
1 Tormod's Crypt

[Ufactor]

 Enough people PM'ed me about this one, so I'm going to post my reply for public consumption.

Daze is a highly personal choice that I use aggressively to gain tempo.

With an extremely low clock and your need for loads of land on the board, I fail to see how Daze will generate Tempo on your side.

Later in the game, it lets me tap out more than I normally would (particularly for massive Skeletal Scryings).

If its late game, opponent has loads of lands on the board. What do you think you'll be able to catch with Daze at that point? And hardcast Darksteel Colossus with only 11 mana available? Daze is just atrocious in Control. If you want a better cheap disruption package, try Disrupt. Disrupt is hot.

Maybe my thoughts on Daze need a little more explanation in order to be understood.  It's with little exaggeration, however, that I state that players need to start thinking about including Daze in control in the same way that thinking about 4 Force of Will was almost unheard of until Urza's Block was printed.

First of all, I agree with you - Disrupt is hot. Disrupt is card advantage against Brainstorm and Merchant Scroll all day long.  I've tooled around with Disrupt on and off for about two years, since Kowal was writing about them in articles about mono blue.  It's a beating against combo/control.   Disrupt is a liability, however, against Stax, Fish, Goblins.  Those decks, and, to a lesser extent, Oath and Bomberman, are going to try to cram permanents down your throat in the first few turns and then ride them to victory.  IMH experience, you don't even get a chance to "cycle" Disrupt into something useful before the game is over.

The same is somewhat true for Duress and Misdirection.  There are just too few relevant targets for these cards to target.  I would almost rather have a Force Spike here than any of those cards.

Daze is right for this deck as early game disruption. This card DOES generate tempo if you get to cast Duress, EE, or a tutor on your first turn main phase and then bounce your tapped land when your opponent tries to do something. Unless you were unlucky enough to see your opponent open with land+Black Lotus, you can often have 2-3 counters on turn one.  If the opponent does nothing on turn one, than that's cool too, because that's just long enough to get UU for Drain.

As for the late game, there is enough mana denial to keep Daze effective until the win.  Crucible/Strip combined with Explosives for zero will errode most of the mana that an opponent would use to pay for Daze.

...consequently, the problem with 3/4cc has never been the late game.  It's better, here, to last into the late game with a few dead cards in hand, than not at all.

One match that I have not mentioned is Ichorid.  Watching an opponent sac Dryad Arbor, floating no mana, plus two zombie tokens and play Dread Return into Daze is purely hilarious.  Bad players bring me much amusement!

Are Dazes gold in every match? Of course not!  They are, however, broad enough to not suck in game one, until they can get sided out for more specific answers.

This is not nearly as much as I could actually write about the merits of Daze.  In reality, I could put up a Smmenen size rant about it and sent it to starcitygames, if I had the time.  I hope, however, this puts the premises into view just enough to show what I'm doing.

[MirariKnight]

The way I see it Daze is a very useful card for exactly the reasons you cited, however not in this deck. Daze is really good in a Fish type deck where they can have a first turn of Land, Mox, Confidant, Daze available. It's tempo, and it lets you tap out early. However, Keeper is not a tempo deck (imo). Daze will set you back almost as much as them. The key in my opinion is that Keeper is very much a Mana Drain deck. It is critical to have Drain mana up turn 2 almost every game, even without the Drain in hand. Daze is very counterproductive to this strategy. Daze is a card that lets you drop a threat and still have an early game counter. The only turn 1 play in this deck is really Duress (Ancestral is an instant so its a little different I would say) not somethink like Meddling Mage. This would mean that even Force Spike would probably be better than Daze in this situation because as a reactive deck, you're not winning the tempo game. Disrupt is REALLY good right now imo. Flash and GAT will be pretty open to it, and I would venture to say that leaving the mana open to Disrupt rather than playing something and Daze is a bigger swing in your favor than losing the land. Daze is pretty dead late game. This deck doesn't really have to worry about that though because if there somehow is a late game, it means that winning is just a formality. I guess I agree with you that it is decent enough to "not suck" (ish) but then wouldn't it be better just to run something that is good, rather than something that is not bad (MisD/Disrupt or something completely different).

[limitedwhole]

ugh.
-Brainstorm
-Duress
-Cuttpurse
-Warrens
+DISRUPT!
+MANALEAK!
+Condescend
+Annul (SB?)
+1 Shaman

Just win with the shamans.  There is no danger in overextending, just drop them and beat.
Crap like Brainstorm and Duress just don't belong.  Duress reduces the blue count and makes force worse.  BRainstorm is garbage in control.  How is it that people want to play force spike and daze over disrupt?  Where are the mana leaks?  Disrupt and manaleak are automatic four ofs.  They get you to mana drain.  Use the cheap countermagic to stall them out then eraticate their mana base and swing with shaman beats for the win.  Weisman wants to stall out the opponent and then finsih off the mana base.  I fail to see how cutpurse is nescessary when everyone is just throwing their cards away.  Load up the one blue mana requirement counterspells.  Counter, let pact resolve, then counter again with force backup.  Mana leak the darkritual, then drop shaman and strip there lone land.  Keeper isn't too slow, it's just nobody ever put in the right solutions.  Brainstorm is GARBAGE.

Weisman has to have the right answers to win.  All the right answers are cheap blue counterspells.  Play it like a draw-go with broken stuff.  Cut fetchlands cause they are aweful.  Stifle, needle, ...umm eot sac a fetchland, put flash on the stack, you lose, thanks for wastelanding yourself.

I cant' get over how aweful brainstorm is.  Are you people really telling me that you want to tap a blue mana to throw away a blue card to look for a force of will in order to throw away a blue card when you could just cast a counterspell and win?  Brainstorm/Fetchland IS the reason 4c Control sucks.  Brainstorm is the worst piece of garbage ever printed in control. 

island, mox, go
island, mox, flash
tap blue mana, Umm Jankstorm?
Disrupt wins this game, forcespike wins this game, mana leak wins this game, condescend wins this game.  BRainstorm throws it away.

You can experiment with maindeck REB if you are worried about flash, although disrupt just rapes them every game.

[zeus-online]

What he said.

...I hope that was a joke.

Duress is like the second best disruptive card for the deck...and brainstorm is pure gold in just about any deck...

Oh and fetchlands HELP against wastelands....

/Zeus

[MirariKnight]

Brainstorm is GARBAGE.
Weisman has to have the right answers to win. 

Need I say more?