[Article] Crossing the Vintage Ocean

[Jank Golem]

I would be grateful to hear any comments or discussion here about my article Crossing the Vintage Ocean, an analysis and comparison of European and American Vintage metagames.

[Implacable]

This was a very intriguing topic, and it deserves exploration.  An unspoken belief among many of the American players that I've talked to is that Europeans and their metagame are 'scrubby'.  While I wouldn't put it in those terms, I look forward to more light being shed on why European players have a metagame that evolves so much more slowly than that of America.  How can TPS and Fish be the top dogs on the other side of the ocean, while G.A.T. and Flash crush them both so convincingly?

[Necropotenza]

I think the main difference between the American and European metagame is that the American is shaped by fads and the European is by experience.
I have the impression that when americans have identified the most broken strategies they tend to play that deck no matter what because they believe in its raw power. On the other hand, europeans try the new decks and then decide what they are better suited for: playing the best deck through hate, or playing other decks they are good at which have a shot at beating the top decks.
This is obviously a generalization, but those are my feelings after 6 years playing european vintage.

[Moxlotus]

I think the main difference between the American and European metagame is that the American is shaped by fads and the European is by experience.
I have the impression that when americans have identified the most broken strategies they tend to play that deck no matter what because they believe in its raw power. On the other hand, europeans try the new decks and then decide what they are better suited for: playing the best deck through hate, or playing other decks they are good at which have a shot at beating the top decks.
This is obviously a generalization, but those are my feelings after 6 years playing european vintage.

That seems reasonable.  I'd also add in that the NE scene is a bridge between the 2.  For a long time, no matter what the top deck was, the NE would be heavy on Drains even if there were way better decks to play (why were people still playing Slaver when PitchLong was around???  People were playing Bomberman as an answer to GAT and Flash!!!  Sure it did well there, but there were lots of Bomberman players and that result hasn't repeated itself).  Eventually it changes (only a few Slaver decks at waterbury), but it takes a while.

In contrast, the Midwest changes its metagame completely from tournament to tournament.  In June there was a Lotus tournament and a bunch of Flash, GAT, and Ichorid.  Gat crapped out there while Flash decks did well.  I played URBana and made top 4 too.  The next month at a mox tournament Ichorid and GAT was nowhere to be seen, while the only Flash player won the tournament.  URBana was the most popular deck in the field since, if properly built and played, it had great Flash and GAT matches.  Goblins ended up in the finals.  So for day 2 of waterbury, a bunch of ICBM (mostly midwesterners) played Goblins because they saw what it could do in a flash metagame.

Earlier this year Mat Endress won a tournament with Ravager.  The next few tournaments there were liek 4 or 5 more people playing with ravager and a few times they made top 4.  The midwest metagame constantly shifts.  We, as a whole, go for raw power or beating the metagame.

An unspoken belief among many of the American players that I've talked to is that Europeans and their metagame are 'scrubby'

This is a belief, and one that has some merit.  While the tournaments have lots of players and 8 rounds--there are lots of unpowered decks in some of the areas so you should be able to just raw power through 2 or 3 of those rounds with no thought--taking it down to a 6 round tournament which is what most are in America.

[Jank Golem]

I think the main difference between the American and European metagame is that the American is shaped by fads and the European is by experience.
I have the impression that when americans have identified the most broken strategies they tend to play that deck no matter what because they believe in its raw power. On the other hand, europeans try the new decks and then decide what they are better suited for: playing the best deck through hate, or playing other decks they are good at which have a shot at beating the top decks.
This is obviously a generalization, but those are my feelings after 6 years playing european vintage.

This is the the idea I was trying to get across in my article, I fully agree with you on it.

An unspoken belief among many of the American players that I've talked to is that Europeans and their metagame are 'scrubby'

This is a belief, and one that has some merit.  While the tournaments have lots of players and 8 rounds--there are lots of unpowered decks in some of the areas so you should be able to just raw power through 2 or 3 of those rounds with no thought--taking it down to a 6 round tournament which is what most are in America.

This has been true in the past for the no proxy European metagame. Now that Europe has begun trying out proxies we can no longer simply discount their metagame because they have unpowered decks. With proxies available at the UAL Power Nine, the European tournament I covered in the article and proxies also available at the TMD Open both metagames have access to the same cards and the same decks. Yet the metagame at the tournaments is still different, European decks are competing with and beating top American decks and we cannot simply ignore that.

How can TPS and Fish be the top dogs on the other side of the ocean, while G.A.T. and Flash crush them both so convincingly?

This is the kind of American bias that we must remove. From an American perspective GAT and Flash crush TPS and Fish. Do Americans even test or consider these decks? or do they just take a quick look European decks, assume American decks are superior and move on? As I said previously top American decks are played in Europe to much less success then they are in America, therefore European decks must have some merit. The two metagames must learn from one another and improve Vintage magic on the whole.

[Grand Inquisitor]

Now that Europe has begun trying out proxies we can no longer simply discount their metagame because they have unpowered decks

Except that one of your more salient points in the article was that:

Players stuck with Fish at a 10 proxy metagame as well because they already had the cards for it, a huge aspect for budget players, because they were comfortable with it, and because it had performed in the past.

This also has application for:

For a long time, no matter what the top deck was, the NE would be heavy on Drains

I think the reason why many at UAL stayed with Fish and why many in NE stayed with drain-based control is because in-game decision making is such a huge component to success in this format.  It's not true across all metagames and restriction periods, but often the 'institutional knowledge' of piloting a deck optimally has outweighed the advantage of 'better' designed decks.  Not to mention that for long periods of time Tog, Slaver and Gifts were widely regarded as the best decks in the format.

I expect that as proxy legal tournaments become more prominent in Europe, that they'll experience a shift away from traditionally budget archetypes.  New England has long ago stopped being a de facto haven for drain players.  Flash, Fish, Stax, etc can just as easily dominate the small events as drains can.

Given my earlier comment about institutional knowledge and play skill, I do notice that players from the midwest tend to be more adept at winning with varied archetypes (e.g. Kobefan, Menendian, etc).  Perhaps this is because they were earlier to experiment with archetypes besides drain in spite of Tog, Slaver or Gifts being the objectively most powerful deck.

[Implacable]

This is the kind of American bias that we must remove. From an American perspective GAT and Flash crush TPS and Fish. Do Americans even test or consider these decks? or do they just take a quick look European decks, assume American decks are superior and move on? As I said previously top American decks are played in Europe to much less success then they are in America, therefore European decks must have some merit. The two metagames must learn from one another and improve Vintage magic on the whole.

Fish, as you wrote in your own article, was heavily played at the American Open, and The Meandeck, which did very well at SCG Roanoke, was basically Scroll TPS.  Both of these decks have done very poorly in the last few months, because G.A.T. and Flash crush them.  We tested the decks; we looked at the results; we put them into boxes.

[Jank Golem]

Now that Europe has begun trying out proxies we can no longer simply discount their metagame because they have unpowered decks

Except that one of your more salient points in the article was that:

Players stuck with Fish at a 10 proxy metagame as well because they already had the cards for it, a huge aspect for budget players, because they were comfortable with it, and because it had performed in the past.

Past proxyless tournaments were a factor in the 5% larger Fish turnout in Europe. However Fish took 25% of the T16 in Europe but only 6% of the American T16. The point being that although Europe is still influenced by its past ban on proxies, those influenced decks still must compete with top American decks and win. I am not saying the European metagame has all the answers, but it should be given more weight then it is right now.

I think the reason why many at UAL stayed with Fish and why many in NE stayed with drain-based control is because in-game decision making is such a huge component to success in this format.  It's not true across all metagames and restriction periods, but often the 'institutional knowledge' of piloting a deck optimally has outweighed the advantage of 'better' designed decks.  Not to mention that for long periods of time Tog, Slaver and Gifts were widely regarded as the best decks in the format.

I expect that as proxy legal tournaments become more prominent in Europe, that they'll experience a shift away from traditionally budget archetypes.  New England has long ago stopped being a de facto haven for drain players.  Flash, Fish, Stax, etc can just as easily dominate the small events as drains can.

Given my earlier comment about institutional knowledge and play skill, I do notice that players from the midwest tend to be more adept at winning with varied archetypes (e.g. Kobefan, Menendian, etc).  Perhaps this is because they were earlier to experiment with archetypes besides drain in spite of Tog, Slaver or Gifts being the objectively most powerful deck.

I agree that Europe is more influenced by "Institutional knowledge" then America is, they tend to stick with older decks longer. What interests me most though is that these older decks win. There could be several reasons for this, older decks do take up more of the European metagame helping their odds of a T16. But for older European decks to compete through a diverse eight round tournament against accepted American decks, there must be something more going on.

[Grand Inquisitor]

The point being that although Europe is still influenced by its past ban on proxies, those influenced decks still must compete with top American decks and win. I am not saying the European metagame has all the answers, but it should be given more weight then it is right now.

I'm not trying to imply that the European meta deserves less weight.  Fish, as Mssr. Feinstein and others have proven, can compete on equal footing in certain metagames.  However, GAT is a very problematic matchup for Fish.  Most of the results from UAL make sense to me, but GAT being only 4% of the metagame is very surprising given how strong the deck is.  Perhaps the midrange combo and control decks that are prominent in these results are the answer to GAT, and although Flash is more powerful than other combo, it's too narrow in a field with so much Fish.

European decks ...American decks

I don't think of decks as European or American.  I tend to think of the metagame as a cycle, and certain decks are either in or out of vogue relative to each other.  However, I do think that there are objectively better decks at certain points, and that since Europe tends to lag in this metagame cycle, you see stuff like MUC get into T8's still, whereas those decks are strictly outmaneuvered in the US meta.

[Moxlotus]

But for older European decks to compete through a diverse eight round tournament against accepted American decks, there must be something more going on.

I would bet dollars to doughnuts that this is because of the pilot--not the deck.  If memory serves, Feinstein said he knew U/W fish would be a terrible metagame call, but played it anyways and because he is apaprently the absolute nuts with that deck, made top 4.

I remember some times when people complained that the metagame was "stagnant" (which I never thought it was).  Why weren't people building or palying new decks?  Frankly, because the great players who usually built the new decks were winning a bunch with the old decks--why put in a bunch of effort when you can win the same mox with the deck you know in and out already?  It will take a few months for everyone to try out the new decks AND become good with them--that is if they even stick with it.  Meanwhile, I can just keep playing my old deck and keep cashing in.

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

First and foremost, good article!

A note on the absence of Flash in the T16 in Spain, if I remember the coverage correctly, people expected tons of Ichorid and therefore ran infi Leylines in their SB's. That's quite a bit of incidental hate to play through.

But for older European decks to compete through a diverse eight round tournament against accepted American decks, there must be something more going on.

I would bet dollars to doughnuts that this is because of the pilot--not the deck.  If memory serves, Feinstein said he knew U/W fish would be a terrible metagame call, but played it anyways and because he is apaprently the absolute nuts with that deck, made top 4.

I guess it should be mentioned that Feinstein also managed to dodge the GAT matchup all day long...

The point being that although Europe is still influenced by its past ban on proxies, those influenced decks still must compete with top American decks and win. I am not saying the European metagame has all the answers, but it should be given more weight then it is right now.

I'm not trying to imply that the European meta deserves less weight.  Fish, as Mssr. Feinstein and others have proven, can compete on equal footing in certain metagames.  However, GAT is a very problematic matchup for Fish.  Most of the results from UAL make sense to me, but GAT being only 4% of the metagame is very surprising given how strong the deck is.  Perhaps the midrange combo and control decks that are prominent in these results are the answer to GAT, and although Flash is more powerful than other combo, it's too narrow in a field with so much Fish.

It should be noted that GAT also took some time to take on again in America after June 20th. At June 30th, GAT was a far lower presence in the American metagame, too. And honestly, against everything but GAT, Fish is still a really good deck. Especially as the now-default list of GAT with Opts wasn't accepted at this point in time, either.
Another reason decks catch on slower in Europe is that there is no European site with as high a quality as tmd afaik (I'm European) and most players don't really follow tmd. So players don't have access to the hype and therefore don't get drawn into it. Add to that that most current T1 players were not around in 2003 when GAT came up the first time, so most people didn't have any grasp of its power (or even the deck in general). Why should they want to play it? Don't underestimate the value of media exposure. To steal Necropotenzas words, there simply is a lot less fad-potential inEurope.   Btw, I knew the deck from 2003 and jumped right back to it

This leads me to another point that should be noted, imo, and which regards innovation. Many of the accepted "best decks" played in America originated in Europe. This was the case for Slaver, Gifts (both tuned for months/years in America afterwards) and, the latest case, the currently accepted list of GAT with Opt + Drain over Street Wraith (if we go far into the past TNT, Stax and the original GAT also come from here but this has less relevance, as Europe was simply the biggest meta at the time). If for no other reason than these precedents, American players should always keep an eye on Europe instead of dismissing it (those that do). They might just happen to stumble about the next big thing.

[Purple Hat]

I thought it was a good article, but I think the discussion in this thread shows that both sets of players are pretty equally biased.

I think the main difference between the American and European metagame is that the American is shaped by fads and the European is by experience.
I have the impression that when americans have identified the most broken strategies they tend to play that deck no matter what because they believe in its raw power. On the other hand, europeans try the new decks and then decide what they are better suited for: playing the best deck through hate, or playing other decks they are good at which have a shot at beating the top decks.
This is obviously a generalization, but those are my feelings after 6 years playing european vintage.

for all the european claims of american bias against european metagames, which are strongly rooted in the truth, this statement and a few others in this thread seem to betray a corrospondingly negative view of the american metagame held by european players.  I think another point is the different cultures in the US and Europe.  Europeans, in general, spend more time in their lives outside of work than americans do.  This tends to mean more time for hobbies, etc.  this is why in games like world of warcraft, for example, european guilds are more successful than american guilds.  It wouldn't surprise me that the Europeans are able to find more crazy things that work simply because americans live to work and euorpeans work to live as the saying goes.

[PETER FLUGZEUG]

Well, hrrm, here in Switzerland we have loads of people who work almost anytime...
Like me at the moment for example: waking up at 4.45, going home at 22.00... But, I won't do this for longer than three months...
Enough off-topic:
I think that many players here are just used to their pet decks and improve their in-game decisions intimately.
For example I had a UB fish deck for a very long time and i practiced with it so much that in the end, OATH wasn't a problem for me anymore, even if one could say oath would be the objectively better deck.
In america, people are perhaps able to adapt faster and I think if a good player adapts well and gets familiar with a new deck quickly, he will make the edge.
On the other hand, I think there are many people who think like "wow Menendian takes that deck, it must be TEH Nutzz" and play bad with it.
A third thing which must be remembered is, that we have tourneys in Zurich where the top price is something like one or two drains and there are still 60-80 people attending. (5 proxy)
In these tournaments, there are a lot of players who play weird "tech" or beatdown decks, which are not good objectively, but perhaps just kill one particular deck.
When you know that there are weird decks that feature massive graveyard hate (leylines all along) and massive creature removal, perhaps you don't want to play flash, but a deck that beats that meta.

BUT: I think the good players should learn to play every deck, so they can play the top tier and still be as good as with their pet deck.
On the other hand, a good player often wins with a cool deck just because he's good and if enjoying that deck and perform with it, why not play it?
Perhaps this could be because we see magc more from the fun aspect of the game (see the great attendance even without power prizes).
On top of that, netdeckers are not really liked here (neither are people who just take the hype deck all the time)

[Jank Golem]

But for older European decks to compete through a diverse eight round tournament against accepted American decks, there must be something more going on.

I would bet dollars to doughnuts that this is because of the pilot--not the deck.

The same can be said for the TMD Open, the top four decks at the event were all piloted by big name American players. Isn't it equally likely that pilot strength brought Flash, GAT and Bomberman to multiple T16 spots in America and that pilot strength also brought Storm Combo and Fish to multiple spots in Europe?

I thought it was a good article, but I think the discussion in this thread shows that both sets of players are pretty equally biased.

 

I think the main difference between the American and European metagame is that the American is shaped by fads and the European is by experience.
I have the impression that when americans have identified the most broken strategies they tend to play that deck no matter what because they believe in its raw power. On the other hand, europeans try the new decks and then decide what they are better suited for: playing the best deck through hate, or playing other decks they are good at which have a shot at beating the top decks.
This is obviously a generalization, but those are my feelings after 6 years playing european vintage.

for all the european claims of american bias against european metagames, which are strongly rooted in the truth, this statement and a few others in this thread seem to betray a corrospondingly negative view of the american metagame held by european players.  I think another point is the different cultures in the US and Europe.  Europeans, in general, spend more time in their lives outside of work than americans do.  This tends to mean more time for hobbies, etc.  this is why in games like world of warcraft, for example, european guilds are more successful than american guilds.  It wouldn't surprise me that the Europeans are able to find more crazy things that work simply because americans live to work and euorpeans work to live as the saying goes.

I agree, this bias is not just on the American side. It is human nature that people have a bias against decks they do not know and do not play against in their local metagame. Once both metagames start communicating there will be a positive feedback loop as local players playing start playing one another with foreign decks and begin getting used to them.

First and foremost, good article!

A note on the absence of Flash in the T16 in Spain, if I remember the coverage correctly, people expected tons of Ichorid and therefore ran infi Leylines in their SB's. That's quite a bit of incidental hate to play through.

But for older European decks to compete through a diverse eight round tournament against accepted American decks, there must be something more going on.

I would bet dollars to doughnuts that this is because of the pilot--not the deck.  If memory serves, Feinstein said he knew U/W fish would be a terrible metagame call, but played it anyways and because he is apaprently the absolute nuts with that deck, made top 4.

I guess it should be mentioned that Feinstein also managed to dodge the GAT matchup all day long...

Another reason decks catch on slower in Europe is that there is no European site with as high a quality as tmd afaik (I'm European) and most players don't really follow tmd. So players don't have access to the hype and therefore don't get drawn into it. Add to that that most current T1 players were not around in 2003 when GAT came up the first time, so most people didn't have any grasp of its power (or even the deck in general). Why should they want to play it? Don't underestimate the value of media exposure. To steal Necropotenzas words, there simply is a lot less fad-potential inEurope.   Btw, I knew the deck from 2003 and jumped right back to it

European Vintage forums do exist, they are separated into the different countries and languages though and are consequently not as large as TMD. This does minimize deck hype and make the metagame less fad oriented and more concentrated around deck performance in local metagames.

This is the kind of American bias that we must remove. From an American perspective GAT and Flash crush TPS and Fish. Do Americans even test or consider these decks? or do they just take a quick look European decks, assume American decks are superior and move on? As I said previously top American decks are played in Europe to much less success then they are in America, therefore European decks must have some merit. The two metagames must learn from one another and improve Vintage magic on the whole.

Fish, as you wrote in your own article, was heavily played at the American Open, and The Meandeck, which did very well at SCG Roanoke, was basically Scroll TPS.  Both of these decks have done very poorly in the last few months, because G.A.T. and Flash crush them.  We tested the decks; we looked at the results; we put them into boxes.

Yes "The Meandeck" was basically scroll TPS. Where had TPS been popular and been performing for years? Europe is where, apparently good ideas can come from there.

I am not only talking about TPS and Fish but decks like Masknought, MUD and Mindtwister Control which are not even on the radar of American players. Mindtwister Control did have some discussion right here on TMD, something I hope we will see more of in the future on both sides.

[Purple Hat]

I also think it's worth noting that while TPS never caught on in America when steve rolled out his article talking about "the meandeck" he took some pretty heavy flak for taking a deck he's been saying is inferior for years, adding scroll and then parading it around like some new invention that no one had ever though of before that was the best deck ever.  To me this shows that american players were definitely aware of the results/existence of TPS we just didn't find success with it for whatever reason so it never took off.

[Jank Golem]

There is a Spanish thread discussing this article as well: http://www.elsantuario.es/foro/index.php/topic,805.0.html
and here is the translated to English version of the page. I would encourage you to read the thread mentioned to get a European perspective on the subject as well. Here is the response I posted on the thread.


First, please excuse my Spanish I don't speak the language so I must use google translator.

Thank you for all the comments about my article. I would agree that American players like myself are influenced hugely by what is posted on TheManaDrain, and often play and succeed mainly with what is posted there. From my perspective European magic influences take place on a much more local level. The subject of who creates and names a deck is very controversial and discussion of it often just degrades to insults. It is important for European and American players to communicate, and I hope my article started a conversation between both sides. For this conversation to continue however we cannot sink to the level of fighting about deck names and who created them. I would encourage everyone here post your established decks, tournament results and any other Vintage related information on TheManaDrain. I also hope members of TMD will in respond with an open mind to you and post their established decks and reports on this forum.

On the subject of American's attending European tournaments and vice versa, it is very difficult to justify traveling such a long distance to play magic when you could just play in local events instead. That said, would there be interest in holding a worlwide Magic Workstation tournament between players from all metagames? This would be a sure way for each metagame to see the other in action.

[Aardshark]

There is a Spanish thread discussing this article as well: http://www.elsantuario.es/foro/index.php/topic,805.0.html
and here is the translated to English version of the page. I would encourage you to read the thread mentioned to get a European perspective on the subject as well. Here is the response I posted on the thread.


First, please excuse my Spanish I don't speak the language so I must use google translator.

Thank you for all the comments about my article. I would agree that American players like myself are influenced hugely by what is posted on TheManaDrain, and often play and succeed mainly with what is posted there. From my perspective European magic influences take place on a much more local level. The subject of who creates and names a deck is very controversial and discussion of it often just degrades to insults. It is important for European and American players to communicate, and I hope my article started a conversation between both sides. For this conversation to continue however we cannot sink to the level of fighting about deck names and who created them. I would encourage everyone here post your established decks, tournament results and any other Vintage related information on TheManaDrain. I also hope members of TMD will in respond with an open mind to you and post their established decks and reports on this forum.

On the subject of American's attending European tournaments and vice versa, it is very difficult to justify traveling such a long distance to play magic when you could just play in local events instead. That said, would there be interest in holding a worlwide Magic Workstation tournament between players from all metagames? This would be a sure way for each metagame to see the other in action.

The babblefish link is a pretty funny read!  Much was definitely lost in translation, but I got the gist.  A joint MWS tourney woudl be awesome! I don't know if prize support is logistically feasible, but I'd pay $ to play if it were (I'd play even if its for honor).

As a few on here know, I ran Wette's "Jedi Mindtwist" (which has been dominating the Catalan series in spain, see e.g. http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=33727.0) at Eudemonia's doubleheader timetwister/lotus tournaments in Northern California this weekend, with respectible results!  I came in 3rd and 14th respectively, but took myself out of contention by scooping to my good friend and playtest partner at 3-1-1, even though I had established complete control in our game 3 (he was playing GATr, and we agreed he had the best shot in the GAT dominated top 8).  He went on to split the finals and gave me 1/4 of the total prize share. I believe I went 2-1-1 for the weekend against GAT & Gush Storm decks, counting my "scoop" as a draw, which it "should" have been.  I've written elsewhere that GAT is slightly unfavorable, but I'm revising it to 50% after sideboard.  An important consideration in gauging these results is that I am *not* the strongest player.  All of my match losses were 2-1, and in most I can identify specific mistakes I made that may well have swung the match.   Not to say that my opponents didn't make mistakes also, but I am saying that I don't think *I* would have done better with a more "established" american archetype like GAT, flash or Goblins.  I share this because it evidences the strength of the top decks in the European Meta!

[piZZero]

I'll copy paste the discussion opened by Jank Golem @El Santuario. I think it's worth sharing my opinion with you guys:

First, please excuse my Spanish I don't speak the language so I must use google translator.

Thank you for all the comments about my article. I would agree that American players like myself are influenced hugely by what is posted on TheManaDrain, and often play and succeed mainly with what is posted there. From my perspective European magic influences take place on a much more local level. The subject of who creates and names a deck is very controversial and discussion of it often just degrades to insults. It is important for European and American players to communicate, and I hope my article started a conversation between both sides. For this conversation to continue however we cannot sink to the level of fighting about deck names and who created them. I would encourage everyone here post your established decks, tournament results and any other Vintage related information on TheManaDrain. I also hope members of TMD will in respond with an open mind to you and post their established decks and reports on this forum.

On the subject of American's attending European tournaments and vice versa, it is very difficult to justify traveling such a long distance to play magic when you could just play in local events instead. That said, would there be interest in holding a worlwide Magic Workstation tournament between players from all metagames? This would be a sure way for each metagame to see the other in action.

Hey Jank Golem!

Thanks for sharing your opinion about the subject here with us. It's a very interesting article you wrote, and i think, as you also suggest, that opens a new perspective about worldwide vintage. American players are really influenced by the big gurus of the game, it's pretty understandable. But this somehow creates a "fake" metagame. Let me develop my idea of "fake". We all know the power that Steve Menendian has over the whole Vintage comunity. During all this time, since Gush was unrestricted, Steve has spread all over that GAT was the deck to beat, the best of all the tier 1 decks. During all this time, GAT had been played by a huge amount of people, making it reach top spots at local and big tournamets. Few days ago Steve won GenCon, and i think it's really understandable, why? He prepared his path to victory so well during all this time, that made so many people play GAT and when the time came, the one that played it at its best, would win. (him)

I think it's a brilliant strategy from Steve to create this metagame (filled with GAT decks) so that, in most mirror matches, he would be clearly in advantage as he's been working out on his deck longer than anyone else.

We could discuss about this hours and hours, but i don't want to. I just wanted to share my opinion and why i think Steve took GenCon title home.

On the subject of American's attending European tournaments and vice versa, it is very difficult to justify traveling such a long distance to play magic when you could just play in local events instead. That said, would there be interest in holding a worlwide Magic Workstation tournament between players from all metagames? This would be a sure way for each metagame to see the other in action.

I think that a tournament that offers more than 14000 US$ in prizes justifies by itself. If you hit 1st place, you take home over 2500$, not bad uh? I'd rather pick that than a Oversized Mox Jet tbh.

I think that now you (american players) have an excellent chance to prove that your level is equal or better than the european one. Obviously not everyone can afford crossing the ocean or taking 4-5 days off, but many vintage players in US do. We've given you time (from now to December, there's plenty of) to plan your trip to Europe.

We all hope we could once face each other in a major scale, and i think MTG Gamblers is an excellent oportunity.

Interesting points you brought up. Events in Europe do offer very nice prizes, better then most European events. You have to look at as a cost benefit analysis. Either the American player can travel thousands of miles costing quite a lot of money to play in European tournament or they can play in a large American event like SCG Power Nine which is only hundreds of miles away and much less expensive. While the European event does have a better prize payout the SCG event costs much less money to attend so on average it would be cheaper. The only economically feasible way for the two countries to compete is over the internet by posting in forums such as this one or actually playing.

It's not about either playing this or that. You brought up the analysis of costs & benefits point. Well, let's make some numbers:

• A Roanoke (USA) - Barcelona (Spain) (and return) flight if you order it today costs: 675 US$ (500€) (Checked only one website, i guess u can find cheaper at your local travel agency).
• Barcelona - Valencia (and return) by bus: ~50 US$ (40€)
• Hotel 1 bed room at NH in Valencia (Bread and Breakfast) 98$/night x 2 nights = 196 US$ (146€)
• Tournament fee: 67 US$ (50€)
• Personal expenses: xxx US$

Total: 1000+ US$

If you consider coming here is coz you either think you can win the event or you love vintage so much that you don't mind spending over 1k$ to travel around the world and play. Players from the 1st group, are the ones that should care about benefit. Knowing that you can earn over 2500 US$ by hitting 1st place and over 1500 US$ by placing 2nd, gives you reasons enough to think about coming.

What i'm trying to say is, players that consider themselves on the top of vintage's world scene, should they travel over the ocean to prove the others about their status? Or, is it better to stay home and claim to be the best of?

[Jank Golem]

As a few on here know, I ran Wette's "Jedi Mindtwist" (which has been dominating the Catalan series in spain, see e.g. http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=33727.0) at Eudemonia's doubleheader timetwister/lotus tournaments in Northern California this weekend, with respectible results!  I came in 3rd and 14th respectively, but took myself out of contention by scooping to my good friend and playtest partner at 3-1-1, even though I had established complete control in our game 3 (he was playing GATr, and we agreed he had the best shot in the GAT dominated top 8).  He went on to split the finals and gave me 1/4 of the total prize share. I believe I went 2-1-1 for the weekend against GAT & Gush Storm decks, counting my "scoop" as a draw, which it "should" have been.  I've written elsewhere that GAT is slightly unfavorable, but I'm revising it to 50% after sideboard.  An important consideration in gauging these results is that I am *not* the strongest player.  All of my match losses were 2-1, and in most I can identify specific mistakes I made that may well have swung the match.   Not to say that my opponents didn't make mistakes also, but I am saying that I don't think *I* would have done better with a more "established" american archetype like GAT, flash or Goblins.  I share this because it evidences the strength of the top decks in the European Meta!

Jedi MindTwist has had widespread success in Europe, and I am glad people like yourself are trying it in America and succeeding. The deck even had a thread on this forum awhile back, but it seems to have died. MaskNought another popular European deck is beginning to see some play in America, TK even played it to a second place at the Vintage prelim at Gencon. These decks successes prove again that European decks and metagames are on par with American decks and metagames.

[v4ino]

One of the points which I believe could be explored further in this thread is that 3 "Pet" decks made Top 8 at Gencon - myself, Ray R, and Rich M. - Our three list would be considered piles by most of the (American) community however all of us have put up big results through out the year. Gencon is the closest thing to an "international" meta as we have since it's the world championship.

Last year two Europeans made T8 (1 being a good friend of mine), this demonstrates the high level of skill in the European Vintage scene.

My brother and Josh Meckes have both been to multiple big European tournaments and have commented on how fun the meta game is to play in. Looking forward to making it to a few of the bigger European tournaments myself.

[Moxlotus]

I'd rather pick that ($2500 in prizes for first) than a Oversized Mox Jet tbh.
 

You clearly have no idea what some of the offers on past Paintings were.

He prepared his path to victory so well during all this time, that made so many people play GAT and when the time came, the one that played it at its best, would win. (him)

I think it's a brilliant strategy from Steve to create this metagame (filled with GAT decks) so that, in most mirror matches, he would be clearly in advantage as he's been working out on his deck longer than anyone else.

That's ridiculous.  If even Steve has that power, which he doesn't, then he would have played a deck that absolutely crushes GAT.  By playing GAT he was showing that even in the face of the hate (which you clearly admit will be popular since you assumed that everybody knows GAT is amazing), and still winning--that is the proof that GAT is strong. 

[piZZero]

I'd rather pick that ($2500 in prizes for first) than a Oversized Mox Jet tbh.
 

You clearly have no idea what some of the offers on past Paintings were.

Of course I know how much these oversized paintings are worth (6ooo$+), but that has nothing to do with the fact that I PREFER to get a Beta Black Lotus + Beta Ancestral Recall. It's my opinion, so please respect it.

He prepared his path to victory so well during all this time, that made so many people play GAT and when the time came, the one that played it at its best, would win. (him)

I think it's a brilliant strategy from Steve to create this metagame (filled with GAT decks) so that, in most mirror matches, he would be clearly in advantage as he's been working out on his deck longer than anyone else.

That's ridiculous.  If even Steve has that power, which he doesn't, then he would have played a deck that absolutely crushes GAT.  By playing GAT he was showing that even in the face of the hate (which you clearly admit will be popular since you assumed that everybody knows GAT is amazing), and still winning--that is the proof that GAT is strong. 

Ridiculous or not, it's my idea. I do believe that recent Steve's  actions, articles, etc... are part of an excellent and brilliant strategy that brought him to win GenCon (Obviously, you'd need the playing skill and Deck control that Steve has). Why play a deck that crushes GAT when he's the master of it? If GAT is a deck that has good pairings and it's proven solid against most of the metagame decks, and Steve is at top of GAT playstyle (Due to deck development, testing, etc...), then i don't see the reason why he should play anything else but GAT.
Knowing all this plus the fact that he knew he was gonna face lots of GAT decks, he prepared to the mirror matches by including the REB maindeck.

If you think Steve's victory at GenCon is thanks to his playing skills only, i do respect your opinion, but i think you should try to see beyond the results and analyze the process that Steve has gone through since the beggining of GAT. He has the power to convince masses about Vintage, you like it or not.

[Setnakt]

Doesn't everyone (those who splash red) play with the REB main?

In any case you seem to be arguing that Mr Menendian deliberately crafted a metagame with his influence for the purpose of personally exploiting it. Basically you would have to show how the metagame is artificial; in your mind, is GAT really so bad that people shouldn't be playing it?

[zeus-online]

I play the red splash just for SB goodness...No maindeck red cards.

I find it hard to believe that stephen crafted the meta-game, sure his articles are influential, but look at something like MDG, it took a long while before people acknowledged the list.

/Zeus

[Purple Hat]

I'd rather pick that ($2500 in prizes for first) than a Oversized Mox Jet tbh.
 

You clearly have no idea what some of the offers on past Paintings were.

Of course I know how much these oversized paintings are worth (6ooo$+), but that has nothing to do with the fact that I PREFER to get a Beta Black Lotus + Beta Ancestral Recall. It's my opinion, so please respect it.

you'd rather have a beta lotus and a beta recall than a beta lotus, a beta recall and $3500?  ok...you can PM me for my address and I'll take that $3500 off your hands for you.

He prepared his path to victory so well during all this time, that made so many people play GAT and when the time came, the one that played it at its best, would win. (him)

I think it's a brilliant strategy from Steve to create this metagame (filled with GAT decks) so that, in most mirror matches, he would be clearly in advantage as he's been working out on his deck longer than anyone else.

That's ridiculous.  If even Steve has that power, which he doesn't, then he would have played a deck that absolutely crushes GAT.  By playing GAT he was showing that even in the face of the hate (which you clearly admit will be popular since you assumed that everybody knows GAT is amazing), and still winning--that is the proof that GAT is strong. 

Ridiculous or not, it's my idea. I do believe that recent Steve's  actions, articles, etc... are part of an excellent and brilliant strategy that brought him to win GenCon (Obviously, you'd need the playing skill and Deck control that Steve has). Why play a deck that crushes GAT when he's the master of it? If GAT is a deck that has good pairings and it's proven solid against most of the metagame decks, and Steve is at top of GAT playstyle (Due to deck development, testing, etc...), then i don't see the reason why he should play anything else but GAT.
Knowing all this plus the fact that he knew he was gonna face lots of GAT decks, he prepared to the mirror matches by including the REB maindeck.

If you think Steve's victory at GenCon is thanks to his playing skills only, i do respect your opinion, but i think you should try to see beyond the results and analyze the process that Steve has gone through since the beggining of GAT. He has the power to convince masses about Vintage, you like it or not.

regardless of whether this theory makes much sense, Steve lost 1 match all day and it was to a superior gat player in the mirror.  Steve admitted all throughout the tournament that Scott Limoges was a more practiced GAT player than he was and this is what led to his match loss.  Additionally the meta at gencon was not significantly GAT heavy.  I saw way more Flash and Stax than GAT.  Asside from that Steve's articles did not drive top american players into GAT.  Having a knowledge of past results and seeing gush unrestricted many different players began testing different versions of the deck, they were successful independant of Steve's articles and the deck tested well so these players continued playing it.  Steve, in fact, came around to the deck later than some of the rest of us because he initially was working on gush storm and then decided it didn't work as well as GAT.

[madmanmike25]

On the subject of American's attending European tournaments and vice versa, it is very difficult to justify traveling such a long distance to play magic when you could just play in local events instead.

It is very hard to justify travelling so far just to play Magic.  I, however am travelling to Europe for a VERY good reason:  Oktoberfest.  I'm going to be staying in Frankfurt and taking the train to Munich to show 'em how Texans drink beer.  If there are any Europeans who will be in the area who want to play some drunken Vintage just let me know, and I'll bring some cards ortherwise I will just have to get hammered and hit on German girls.

Mike

[Phele]

There is a Vintage tournament in Frankfurt on september the 15th, one week before Oktoberfest starts. If you are interested, go to Morphling.de for futher details.