Banned/Restricted List Discussion

[Yare]

After some discussion, it was been decided that a Banned/Restricted List discussion will be allowed to be held here in the Adept Chronicles forum.  Because this topic tends to lead to heated discussion (and degeneration of the thread), there are some specific standards which will be applied to this thread:

1. As can be seen, this thread is in the Adept Chronicles forum, so only Adepts and Full Members can post in it.
2. Posts in this thread will be held to a higher standard of reasoning.  Arguments and statements must be thought out rather than being posted whimsically. As a courtesy, a list of logical fallacies can be found here. (Thanks to Dr. Sylvan for the link.)
3. Posts in this thread will be held to a higher standard with respect to courtesy and civility.  Personal attacks will not be tolerated in the slightest in this thread.
4. If this thread becomes degenerative, it will be closed.

I truly dislike having to use such a harsh tone with this thread, but I think it is necessary in order to convey the strictness and seriousness with which this thread will be monitored.  On the other hand, being one of the proponents for a thread such as this, I truly desire to have a public forum for discussion of the B/R List, as I think it is one of the most important topics in Vintage.  Hence, I want to protect this thread if I can. 

With all of that out of the way, I hope this thread will be able to flourish as a place where a publicly viewable, intelligent discussion can take place regarding the Banned/Restricted List.  Thanks in advance for your cooperation.

[Grand Inquisitor]

I guess I'll bite.  Btw, even though I have no idea what they're talking about, the sci-fi logical fallacies were great.

When I think about restrictions I tend to think of the evaluation process at three levels:

1) The card itself.  Is xyz a broken enough effect to garner restriction in a vacuum, relative to the existing list of restricted cards.  This is mostly intuitive and uses existing restriction decisions as a guide.  Usually these fall under tutor, fast mana (or cheating mana costs) or card draw relative to cost.

2) The card as it interacts with other cards or in a deck.  Some cards are fair or even bad (donate) until they find their niche in the largest card pool in magic.

3) The card and its interactions within a given metagame.  Even if some cards lead to brutal combinations or are quite strong outright, either another metagame strategy keeps it in check, or there's a strong deck that requires taking on less risk.

With these different lenses in mind, the key candidates up for consideration (based on my own feelings and recent discussion) seem to be:

Flash
Merchant Scroll
Brainstorm
Serum Powder

Gush

Burning Wish
Dream Halls
Entomb
Fact or Fiction
Gifts Ungiven
Grim Monolith
Personal Tutor
Time Spiral

(briefly)

Flash Evaluating this card falls mostly into the second lense.  This isn't overly powerful compared with other ways to cheat mana costs; the real reason why Flash is dangerous is its interaction with Protean Hulk.  While there have been lots of two card combos in T1's history, they often required the 2nd card to be in a zone other than the hand, such as the grave (WGD) or in play (Illusions of Grandeur).  The additional interactions with 0cc tutors and counters create a combo speed that I'm uncomfortable with (re: "it feels too broken").  I say restrict.

Merchant Scroll Merchant Scroll is the best unrestricted tutor available, hands down.  It would be hard to argue it's worse than personal tutor.  However, when I think about it in the wider context of the metagame, I don't see it as overly problematic.  It tends to be used in mid range combo-control decks, ranging from bomberman to GAT.  People can point to tournament results from GenCon and say that GAT vs. GAT finals prove Scroll's power.  Let's be candid; this was one of the most skillful T8's at GenCon I've ever seen.  It wasn't two scrubs womping through swiss by mindlessly casting scroll.  I think merchant scroll (outside of Flash) helps slow down the metagame.  I think it rewards good play.  I also think it supports decks that are inherently fair.  I say no change, but watch.

Brainstorm I could go on and on about the reasons for and against restriction of this card.  To be honest, I think the format has been so wrapped up in this card for so long that it's difficult to come close to an objective evaluation.  Modern vintage is what it is because of brainstorm/fetch.  I think this card is inherently broken, it has strong interactions (fetches, Gush), and it enables broken decks (any storm deck, Flash, etc).  I LOVE this card, but I think it may be the most subtely powerful card not on the BR list.  However, I think the key to understanding brainstorm is looking at what it doesn't do.  It doesn't tutor.  It doesn't draw cards (lead to card advantage).  This leaves what it actually does, which is improve card quality.  I've come to believe that when brainstorm is restricted, we have in fact hit critical mass (whatever that means) and that the format is effectively past return.  I say no change.

Serum Powder What a wierd card.  I don't have the testing or play experience to really say much about this, except in the context of ichorid.  I hate playing against ichorid, but I think it's good for the format.  I think Serum Powder pushes the dredge mechanic too far.  In order for decks to be able to compete with it they need to compromise too much against the rest of the metagame.  Bazaar of Baghdad is undoubtedly the more broken card, but I think Serum Powder can bring the power level down to a healthy level and allow ichorid to remain part of the metagame.  If, as other people have been testing, Serum Powder breaks things like Belcher, Staff Combo, etc, then the move is all the more prudent.  Restrict.

Gush I think it's too early to judge the decision from the last BR.  If Flash is removed and Ichorid is tempered, other archetypes can find more space to combat GAT (which isn't hard).  Workshops are always an effective trump.  I say no change, but watch.

Burning Wish - victim of overzealousness during the Long debacle.  Your Mother!  Unrestrict.

Dream Halls - See Vroman.  Unrestrict.

Entomb - I have no idea, but it's cheap and tutors.  No change.

Fact or Fiction - This is an interesting case.  FoF is certainly no Gifts, and I've cut it from anything blue I've run for the last couple years.  If Gush is in the format, that will be the engine of choice for combo-control.  Fof may even revive more dedicated control, which to me is a good thing.  Unrestrict.

Gifts Ungiven - This card is still REALLY good.  True, MDG was on its way down when it got restricted, but it's still insanely powerful even at four mana.  It's ability to elevate Yawgmoth's Will is too great, especially if the format slows down.

Grim Monolith - I don't really get this one.  If ritual is legal this should be too.  The power artifact combo requires three cards, which makes it strictly worse than vault<>fusilade, which wasn't that bad.  Unrestrict.

Personal Tutor - I've never seen anyone play this in T1.  If scroll can live, so can this.  Unrestrict.

Time Spiral - Many don't even play draw 7's in storm combo anymore because they're too erratic.  If the format does slow down, it could be good to give some other avenues for deck design back to combo.  This may have dangerous interactions with Burning Wish, but at six mana and with a random ability, I don't see this degenerating.  Unrestrict.

In summary:

Flash - restrict
Merchant Scroll - no change
Brainstorm - no change
Serum Powder - restrict

Gush- no change

Burning Wish - unrestrict
Dream Halls - unrestrict
Entomb - no change
Fact or Fiction - unrestrict
Gifts Ungiven - no change
Grim Monolith - unrestrict
Personal Tutor - unrestrict
Time Spiral - unrestrict

[vroman]

Serum Powder
restrictred? say it aint so. restricting s-powder would kill ichorid as tier 1 deck. ichorid is easily hated out w a modicum of deck slots, and can't ever be dominant. unless s-powder becomes potent across archetypes (ie stax, belcher, etc) its not problematic

Personal tutor
unrestricting this would create a new archetype called GuaranteedTurnTwoTinker.dec. Would this deck be broken? if this were still the age of MDG, w Dsteel as finisher of choice, answer would be yes. but now not so sure an extremely redundant and resiliant and consistent turn 4 win is worth worrying about.

Merhcant Scroll
Flash
Gush
restriction status of MScroll, Flash and Gush are all part of the same discussion. Restricting either Flash or Gush would kill their respective archetypes. Flash has two distinct decks, and several subtypes (rector; hulk-sliver, hulk-kikijiki, hulk-disciple). Gush also fuels two distinct decks, GAT and tendrils variations. The only thing in common with all these is 4xM-scroll. restricting scroll wouldnt kill any deck and would reduce the consistency of flash and draw power of gush.

Mox Diamond
I play this in legacy-loam, so I know exactly how hard it is to abuse. by vintage standards this is poor, poor excuse for acceleration. the real problem is that it requires 4 specific cards out of your opening hand to give any advantage. you need atleast 2 lands and the mox and 2c spell. if you have only 1 land, then theres no reason to not just play that land, and keep the extra card in hand. if you dont have 2c spell, then your better off just keeping the other land and playing it next turn, while waiting for something to cast. if you have [3 lands, mox, 3c spell] your best play is still to just play 1 land turn 1, so as not to risk getting 2-for-1d by artifact hate when you pass the turn. then on turn 2, if the 3c spell is still relevent, then you drop land#2 and the mox, pitching land#3 and cast the spell. of course this strategy comes from legacy where chalice@0 is absent.
my legacy deck is set up so that the confluence of [2 land, mox, relevent 2c spell] occurs as often as possible, however the quality of those 2c spells is laughable compared to vintage potential plays. bottomline: theres no tier 1 strategy that needs 4xmoxD (or 1 for that matter) in a format where draw-back-less moxen are available 5 of a kind. if moxD is good enough to contribute say to turn 1 flash kills, why arent they playing 1of moxD now, or chrome mox for that matter?

Grim Monolith
2-for-3 colorless acceleration is only plausibly included in stax and belcher. any other deck is strictly better off playing cabal ritual. belcher already has a plethora of marginal mana accel cards w all the new red rituals and spirit guides. even if 4xmonolith makes their list, so be it. the metagame has handled Belcher for quite some time now. as for stax, in my lengthy experience piloting the deck, what stax needs is better locks, the mana bases are already optimized.

Time Spiral
this card is strictly worse than windfall in my analysis. its just not abusable anymore. games dont last to the point where ppl have 6 land in play anymore. the decks that want to play cheap draw7s, certainly dont WANT the game to last that long, and shouldnt play card only abusable when theyre losing. combo gets its mana from moxen and rituals, not lands. time spiral is obsolete.

Enlightened Tutor
The only real target for this is black lotus. the only deck that plays white and has a major hankering for black lotus is bomberman. would you be scared of bomberman w 4xe-tutor? they still lose to chalice@anything and mindcensor. trinket mage gets lotus into hand and has a body. Im prepared to let this happen.
could Tutor.Stax become a deck w quad white and black tutors (d, v, i, consultation)? tolerable. at one time ppl played Rebuild main. stax can be hated out like ichorid. its very dificult for non-blue decks to become dominant.


Final vote

Restrict
Merchant Scroll

Unrestrict
Mox Diamond
Enlightened Tutor
Grim Monolith
Time Spiral

No change
Brainstorm
Burning Wish
Entomb
Fact or Fiction
Flash
Gifts Ungiven
Gush
Gifts
Personal Tutor
Serum Powder

[nataz]

Alright, I have issues with a lot of what GI just said, but I think he fairly sums up some of the prevailing views in vintage right now. Just to highlight, I'll quote his serum powder and BS reasoning -

Serum Powder...In order for decks to be able to compete with it they need to compromise too much against the rest of the metagame.  Bazaar of Baghdad is undoubtedly the more broken card, but I think Serum Powder can bring the power level down to a healthy level and allow ichorid to remain part of the metagame.

Brainstorm...To be honest, I think the format has been so wrapped up in this card for so long that it's difficult to come close to an objective evaluation.  Modern vintage is what it is because of brainstorm/fetch.  I think this card is inherently broken, it has strong interactions (fetches, Gush), and it enables broken decks (any storm deck, Flash, etc)... I LOVE this card...[/b]

So, we have ichorid which never consistantly top 8's, and has failed to ever win anything relevent. It's good enough that people have to prepare for it, but not good enough to consistantly win. Those are as close to factual statements as you are going to get. Go ahead, look up the numbers - ichorid. does. not. win. Yet, apparently the deck/engine of serum powder is too broken? Really?

Look at this reasoning vs. GI's take on brainstorm. Brainstorm is so powerful that its essentialy the backbone of the format. This is a card that not only is broken in theory, but its broken in practice. Look at top 8's everywhere and count the brainstorms. You think scroll is bad, please, doesn't even come close. Decks will cut scrolls long before they even think about brainstorm. With out brainstorm flash would not exist. Let me say that again with out the mana smoothing/virtual card draw that brainstorm provides, flash would be un-playable. Brainstorm is far more important to flash then merchent scroll. Funny thing is, it's not just flash that leans so hard on brainstorm. Gifts w/o brainstorm would have been stupid. GAT with no BS, - good luck runing those mana bases.

To be honest, I think the format has been so wrapped up in this card for so long that it's difficult to come close to an objective evaluation

This is the only reason why no one will call for the restriction of brainstorm. People are too much in love with the style of decks that it enables.

Unfortunatly, this applies to Flash v. Gush also. Sure, flash is good, but it doesn't put up the numbers that Gush does. Flash is good in thoery, but Gush is good in practice. Flash didn't even top 8 at Gencon, but it was a GAT mirror in the finals. Yet, people love playing GAT, and people are too lazy to build against Flash, therefore flash suddenly becomes the "dangerous" card.  


People make up all kinds of good reasons to bring down ichorid and serum powder yet leave gush and brainstorm alone. Notice also the werid ass call of bring FOF back because we for some reason need a super strong control deck? Personal bias runs rampent though peoples bias. Props to GI for pointing out that he loves brainstorm too much to even make an agrument about it. At least he is honest about it.

All this said, what would I do? Nothing. I think we are fine where were are now. We have a solid tier of decks that are the best decks - i.e., flash (combo) and gush (good.dec). This creates a meta-game that can evolve to deal with both decks - see stax (prison). In addition we have outliers that are still relevent that add additional constraints on deckbuilding - see ichorid (aggro-combo), goblins (aggro), and bomberman/landstill (control). In addition, having an established meta-game leaves room for innovation since a predicatble metagame is an attackable meta game. See Dan Yarrington's recent TMWA, or even something like fish where you have to build right to win.

[Grand Inquisitor]

@Nataz, I agree with most of what you said, but we have very different emphasis as far as what we want out of playing T1.

So, we have ichorid which never consistantly top 8's, and has failed to ever win anything relevent

I largely agree.  Ichorid actually has put up lots of T8's, however, people don't play it in large numbers, so not as many as it deserves.  The reason why they don't play it in large numbers is because they know it's a craps shoot.  A lousy ichorid player can roll into the T8, however, the best ichorid player in T1 may drop to catching hate and/or bad beats.  This is why it hasn't won any events.  First, because it is easily hateable, and second, that you can't leverage skill to win at a high level.  This is how someone like Rich Shay can yawn into a T8 one week, and wiff the next with this deck.

My reasoning for Serum Powder's restriction has nothing to do with ichorid's performance as a deck.  It has entirely to do with what it's like to play with/against it.  It's not fun, and it's like playing black jack.  However, it's possible that if you nuke serum powder, and force builds to run lands, and stuff like putrid imp again, the deck can be competitive and interactive.

This is the only reason why no one will call for the restriction of brainstorm. People are too much in love with the style of decks that it enables.

I agree, but this may be a good thing.  If restricting brainstorm would slow down the format, I'd support it.  However, it's very hard to say what its effect would be.

Flash is good in thoery, but Gush is good in practice

I don't think this is an accurate statement.  Tell this to Justin Timoney, or all the people in CA and PA who've won with Flash.

Flash didn't even top 8 at Gencon

Hasty Generalization
The hasty generalization is the use of an unacceptably small sample as the basis of a conclusion about the larger population.

I'm being harsh here, but c'mon.  There are plenty of good decks that didn't T8 at GenCon.

I think we are fine where were are now.

I've really enjoyed playing the last couple months, but I haven't played against much Flash or Ichorid.  Ichorid and Flash push the fundamental turn in a way that makes t1 unenjoyable.

When I play against storm.dec and I have FoW in hand, it's a constant puzzle as far as when to use it.  On the other side of the table the combo player is trying to hide his position, feign must counters, etc to find a hole to go off.  With Flash, it's either they have PoN or you have 2x pitch, against ichorid it's 'leyline or no' and then 'silence vs. fow'.  These are not fun dynamics, regardless of how many t8's it gets.

[ELD]

I am a idealist.  I feel Type 1 should be the format where you can play with any card you own.  I also feel the policy on eliminating power level errata follows the spirit of this idea.  IMO the B&R list should be a hall of fame for the most broken cards in Magic.  I agree with the policy of restricting absurd card drawing, tutors and fast mana, as it is a simple, clean president to follow.  It is also effective enough at slowing combo down and degenerate decks.  Based off this, I would make very few changes.

1) Un-errata Mox Diamond. 

When Mox Diamond comes into play chose and discard a land card or sacrifice Mox Diamond.
Tap: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool.

That's what's printed on the card.  That's how it should play.  I understand that sacrifices were too fast to respond to back in the day, but that really doesn't enter into it IMO.  As it is now, you can weld it in and there's no trigger.  There's no real explaining that one with older rules.  This change would make Mox Diamond a much better card, with some interesting choices for both in game and during deck construction.  I'm sure there are other cards out there that still have power level errata on them, but this one strikes me as the most likely to impact the format. 

2) Restrict Merchant Scroll. 

As has been said, Merchant Scroll is the best unrestricted tutor available right now in Type 1.  It is basically a Blue Demonic Tutor at this point.  Flash and GAT abuse it best, but before those two juggernauts appeared, Gifts was able to use it in similar fashion.  I feel that Gifts was restricted as a result of this. 

That is all I would do for this time around.  I would keep watch on Un-restricting Fact or Fiction and Gifts.  They are on the line of absurd card draw & busted tutor respectively, so I would wait until there are no other issue with the list before attempting to remove either. 

*EDIT*
What I sincerely would not like to see, is the pruning of the cards out of the environment simply because they are among the strongest cards.  Discussion of restricting Brainstorm, Serum Powder, Bazaar of Baghdad etc... strikes a sour note with me.  I feel that players should be able to invest in cards that they believe are good, without fear that they will get restricted from under them.  When we stray from the criteria of fast mana, tutors, and insane card draw, things can become wildly subjective.  Cards like Force of Will are open for debate if the logic behind the B&R list loses focus.  I do not feel that the B&R list should be affected by public opinion.  I have seen players debate the B&R list for the last 5+ years, and I have seen many cards come under fire.  Goblin Welder was under heavy fire for quite a while.  I think it would have been horrible for vintage to see Welder restricted.  If players clamor for the restriction of the card of the week, I do not think it should be a factor in the DCI's decision.  The bottom line is this.  Out of any pool of cards, there are going to be cards that are the strongest.  Removing those cards means that other cards will simply take their place at the top. 

[Shock Wave]

I was going to contribute my thoughts to this discussion, but GI has articulated exactly how I feel. I strongly agree with almost everything stated, specifically about Flash, Brainstorm, and Serum Powder. Here are the changes I would make:

+ Serum Powder

- See what GI said. I've been thinking about this for a long time, and I really believe that this format does not need an unrestricted card that provides this sort of mechanic. Vintage has an already high probability of making Turn 1, game ending plays. This card promotes these sorts of non-interactive, degenerate archetypes. I don't think it is a problem in terms of fueling a deck that can win tournaments, but it is an enabler for tragically "unfun" decks (aka Flash/Trinisphere/Ichorid.dec).

On a related note, we have to stop using the "dominance" principle as a basis for making B&R changes. A deck does not need to win tournaments in order to be an indication of a problem archetype. I submit that Ichorid illustrates another basis for restriction: It is a highly non-interactive deck, which relies more heavily on its opening 7 cards than any other archetype, is almost entirely indifferent to the playskill of its pilot or its opponent, and has the potential to Top 8 or even win a tournament. As you can see, this is not a basis founded upon one but rather a combination of principles, that when simultaneously satisfied by a deck, are indicative of a problem archetype.

+ Flash

- This card is just horrible for the format. There's really not much else to explain here.

+ Merchant Scroll

- It's either this or Gush. GAT is the best deck in the format. Whenever you can clearly identify the best deck, far and above all the others, that's a problem. The deck is just too resilient, consistent, and broken. I think it was a mistake to unrestrict Gush, but I'm willing to cede that that problem may be Merchant Scroll, and probably has been for a long time. I would hit Merchant Scroll first, and then if Gush is still an animal, hit that in the future.

- Burning Wish
- Dream Halls    
- Grim Monolith           
- Time Spiral       

- Not much to say about these puppies here. I think that some broken things may be possible with 4 Burning Wish and maybe 4 Grim Monolith too, but don't feel it necessary to err on the side of caution with these cards. I say let them go for a while and see what happens, kinda like what the DCI did with Gush. It's worth a shot!

- Mox Diamond

- I'm going to agree with Vroman on this one. This card isn't very good at all, and I can't see it getting better in multiples. Chalice is already keeping moxes in check, as is Null Rod. Hell, even FoWing a Mox Diamond is a reasonable play. It's a 2 for 2. I would let this one go too.

- Personal Tutor

- I do NOT like the idea of an unrestricted blue tutor that finds Yawgmoth's Will or Tinker. It's just not necessary. I strongly advise against this.

- Fact or Fiction

- Please do NOT do this. This card is a hideous beast in a slow format.

- Enlightened Tutor

- I would err on the side of caution with this card. We really don't need a card in multiples that can find Black Lotus at EOT, amongst other nasty things. I say leave this where it is.


Conclusion: Take off 5 cards, add 3, slow the format down, make more decks viable, make the format more interactive. That seems very reasonable to me. Anyways, that's all for now.

[Vegeta2711]

It's my view that if Merchant Scroll is restriction worthy, it's time for Brainstorm to leave the format as well. You want to hurt GAT to a hefty extent? Take out the best cantrip spell ever and see how well that 14-15 land mana base holds up to disruption now. Gush is quite amazing still, but the inability to directly exchange the land in hand into more good cards (At least without Fastbond) makes it at least a bit fairer. More importantly if you want to go Scroll -> Ancestral, that's going to be your big set-up play. None of this 'Oh I'll use Brainstorm first to make my hand awesome so the AR resolves after.' or 'hai i drew the nuts in my extra 3 on  turn 1, gg sir'.

Flash? It's win % after turn 1 is going to go down the tubes as it has combo pieces stranded in hand and suddenly you lack the capability to play around Duress. Even the turn 1 kill rate may take a small hit, as you can't just sack into what you need off turn 1 mini-AR. Then again there would be less of a need to combo off on turn 1, because the consistency of all decks protection suites to be operational within the first two turns would take a notable hit. Basically you can run all the tutors you want, but without Brainstorm it's much harder to assemble that optimal hand of combo pieces and countermagic everyone references when noting how busted the deck is.

Even older storm combo decks that people whined about would take hits. Hell, look at Gifts. How much easier would it be for aggro-control decks to beat up on a Gifts deck if it's main way of setting up the hand was only TFK or Gifts itself? Oh nos, he Scrolled for something, it's not like we don't have FoW, Drain, REB or some sort of disruption spell in hand! Just think of all the mana base reworking people would have to do without the little blue card that could making it possible for every blue deck in the format to get away with Gro-esque mana bases. We would actually see a lot of decks with more than 16 lands again!

Brainstorm is the most absurd draw card in the format that's not named Ancestral Recall. The shortcuts the card allows you to take in deck-design are staggering if only looked at from a mana base perspective, let alone the top down structure of how most Vintage decks are designed nowadays. If you ever wanted to put a damper on the outrageous nature of Vintage decks without doing a series of cascading reactions and just wiping out all the key cards in top decks, this is the card you pull the trigger on.

[Shock Wave]

It's my view that if Merchant Scroll is restriction worthy, it's time for Brainstorm to leave the format as well. You want to hurt GAT to a hefty extent? Take out the best cantrip spell ever and see how well that 14-15 land mana base holds up to disruption now. Gush is quite amazing still, but the inability to directly exchange the land in hand into more good cards (At least without Fastbond) makes it at least a bit fairer. More importantly if you want to go Scroll -> Ancestral, that's going to be your big set-up play. None of this 'Oh I'll use Brainstorm first to make my hand awesome so the AR resolves after.' or 'hai i drew the nuts in my extra 3 on  turn 1, gg sir'.

Josh, Brainstorm was fine before the unrestriction of Gush. It was good, but not ridiculous. It is not Brainstorm that fuels GAT, it is Gush. If you don't believe me, try playing the deck with 1 Gush. It is hardly as powerful. Yes, if you play it with 1 Brainstorm, it suffers a hit as well, but Brainstorm was perfectly acceptable until the return of GAT.

Brainstorm does not draw you an extra anything. It lets you see 3 new cards but does not net you any card advantage. We can use hyperbole ad infinitum to illustrate what a great cantrip it is, but at the end of the day, that's all it really is: a great cantrip. Once the format slows down, Brainstorm will be reasonable again, especially considering that a higher premium will be placed upon card advantage as opposed to card quality.

Like GI said, once the format reaches critical mass, Brainstorm will then be a problem, because at that point, we'll be back where we are now: placing priority on card quality as opposed to card advantage. When Vintage is in such a state, it follows suit that Brainstorm is ridiculous, since seeing 3 cards is essentially seeing 3 more opportunities to end the game immediately.

Flash? It's win % after turn 1 is going to go down the tubes as it has combo pieces stranded in hand and suddenly you lack the capability to play around Duress. Even the turn 1 kill rate may take a small hit, as you can't just sack into what you need off turn 1 mini-AR. Then again there would be less of a need to combo off on turn 1, because the consistency of all decks protection suites to be operational within the first two turns would take a notable hit. Basically you can run all the tutors you want, but without Brainstorm it's much harder to assemble that optimal hand of combo pieces and countermagic everyone references when noting how busted the deck is.

You're implying that it is more reasonable to hit Brainstorm and not Flash. I question why you would want to hit a card that was previously useful but not problematic until the inception of a new card (Flash). Does it not make more sense to consider that the inception of the new card is the problem? Brainstorm does not combo with any card to create a turn 1 win in Vintage. Flash does. I'm not following the reasoning.

Even older storm combo decks that people whined about would take hits. Hell, look at Gifts. How much easier would it be for aggro-control decks to beat up on a Gifts deck if it's main way of setting up the hand was only TFK or Gifts itself? Oh nos, he Scrolled for something, it's not like we don't have FoW, Drain, REB or some sort of disruption spell in hand! Just think of all the mana base reworking people would have to do without the little blue card that could making it possible for every blue deck in the format to get away with Gro-esque mana bases. We would actually see a lot of decks with more than 16 lands again!

Again, Brainstorm was not the problem. Gifts was the problem. Brainstorm helped set up Gifts, but it wasn't what won the game. Remember that Gifts is only unplayable right now because Flash, Ichorid, and GAT make it so. Once the format slows down, it is immediately a house again, with or without Brainstorm.

Brainstorm is the most absurd draw card in the format that's not named Ancestral Recall. The shortcuts the card allows you to take in deck-design are staggering if only looked at from a mana base perspective, let alone the top down structure of how most Vintage decks are designed nowadays. If you ever wanted to put a damper on the outrageous nature of Vintage decks without doing a series of cascading reactions and just wiping out all the key cards in top decks, this is the card you pull the trigger on.

Brainstorm doesn't necessarily fit into every blue based deck. It certainly does not fit into optimal Landstill lists, and it is debatable as to whether or not it fits in Fish. In archetypes that rely on smoothing out the mana base, or decks with a high concentration of bombs, Brainstorm is exceptionally good. However, it is not an auto-include in every blue deck, and I'm sure we can all agree that it is not a "draw" spell.

[Liam-K]

edit: my post-post-proofread assures me that everything I wrote does, in fact, make sense.  I apologize for the wandering prose.  I'm sleepy and feeling verbose.


Brainstorm can obviously sometimes do crazy things, like win you the game on the first turn.  But this is not its purpose in the format.

As a card that lets you choose from a wider range of options without giving you any resources, brainstorm is a card that has one purpose; make the best option possible.  Another way of saying this is make the deck do what it's designed to do; one can safely assume your best possible option is your deck's plan A.

However, an important thing to note is (at this time) brainstorm does not directly enable any competitive plan A.  Your path to victory revolves around the cards in your hand after brainstorm has resolved.

I also find it hard to argue that decks doing their thing is bad.  I don't feel as though a format of less consistant decks in which the timeframe before which they can be expected to be "online" is longer leads to a more interesting game, as a deck being online is not synonymous with a deck ending the game.  Setting up an active disruption plan with which to play the control role is an equally important function of the card and decks that have a few less chances to end the game early, but can expect less resistence to those attempts will be less interactive by nature.  Personally, I don't feel being combo'd out on turn 3 before I find a way to do anything about it more fun than the same experience occuring before I lay a land.  And I certainly don't find it more fun than being combo'd out on turn 2 through the force of will my brainstorm found me to fight back with.

If brainstorm is making plans that are too strong for the format not crap out on their deck designers, I humbly pose that they receive a similar boost in efficiency to their metagame contemporaries and would be too strong for the format in a 1 brainstorm environment.  As was stated above, while Gush's land-light manabase would be impractical without brainstorm, every blue (read: good) deck is able to run a similar manabase and therefor would be hosed just as bad.

Furthurmore, I suggest that if brainstorm is one half an unfair interaction, it is automatically not the only candidate for consideration regarding the neutering of that interaction.  And frankly, if either Gush or Brainstorm has to go to end gush->brainstorm->fetch, brainstorm has less other problems associated with it.

[Anusien]

The one question I have for people, while I compose my own response, is this:

"Do you think Gush was unrestricted on the 'Try it and see if it is still broken.' principle?  If so, do you think that this is a good or bad thing?  If they do so, should Wizards let us know when they do it?"

A lot of people tend to default to this type of answer, even in this thread.  I'm not saying this is a bad thing.  However the unrestriction of Gush of led to a lot of ordinarily level-headed people to call the credibility of the DCI into question.

[Vegeta2711]

To clarify, I'm not stating whether or not Flash or Gush should be restricted, as I stated in other threads I think Flash should leave on pure health of the format reasoning. Rather I'm poking at the rather odd concept that somehow Merchant Scroll is more restriction-worthy than Brainstorm is; when look at how most decks are constructed, Brainstorm goes further into making these broken decks plan operate on a consistent basis vs. Scroll. One can enable the resources to get the plan online or find the enablers themselves; the other can only find the enablers. Just seems like an odd double-standard going on with the card.

I also find it hard to argue that decks doing their thing is bad.  I don't feel as though a format of less consistant decks in which the timeframe before which they can be expected to be "online" is longer leads to a more interesting game, as a deck being online is not synonymous with a deck ending the game.  Setting up an active disruption plan with which to play the control role is an equally important function of the card and decks that have a few less chances to end the game early, but can expect less resistence to those attempts will be less interactive by nature.  Personally, I don't feel being combo'd out on turn 3 before I find a way to do anything about it more fun than the same experience occuring before I lay a land.  And I certainly don't find it more fun than being combo'd out on turn 2 through the force of will my brainstorm found me to fight back with.

I seriously don't understand what you're even talking about here. All I get is that your stating that the current plans would be less consistent unless they were retooled. So yeah, feel free to clarify here.

Like GI said, once the format reaches critical mass, Brainstorm will then be a problem

Aren't we there already with the way things are now? We have a deck that can play control and aggro better than any other deck in the format; and would be combo as well except we've got one of the most broken combo engines ever available to us.

[LotusHead]

The one question I have for people, while I compose my own response, is this:

"Do you think Gush was unrestricted on the 'Try it and see if it is still broken.' principle?  If so, do you think that this is a good or bad thing?  If they do so, should Wizards let us know when they do it?"

A lot of people tend to default to this type of answer, even in this thread.  I'm not saying this is a bad thing.  However the unrestriction of Gush of led to a lot of ordinarily level-headed people to call the credibility of the DCI into question.

This might pave the way to unrestricting Trinisphere.  I firmly belive that Trinisphere helped T1 re-think itself (playing with basic lands, for example). The Vintage Community solved the Trinisphere problem, and the DCI acted to end the "unfun" aspect.  Granted, when Trinisphere got restricted, Shop decks in particular got re-worked and improved again, and T1 moved on.

While Trinisphere was unrestricted, I was not a Shop player. I played Salvagers (then Oath Salvagers). But I hate seeing cards get restricted unless truly truly neccessary (Like ELD's post).

Gush, to me, isn't randomly broken, but decks like GAT reward only truly stellar players (as opposed to Flash), with intimate knowledge of their meta and great SB choices.

Gush and 3Sphere should co-exist.

[Liam-K]

I also find it hard to argue that decks doing their thing is bad.  I don't feel as though a format of less consistant decks in which the timeframe before which they can be expected to be "online" is longer leads to a more interesting game, as a deck being online is not synonymous with a deck ending the game.  Setting up an active disruption plan with which to play the control role is an equally important function of the card and decks that have a few less chances to end the game early, but can expect less resistence to those attempts will be less interactive by nature.  Personally, I don't feel being combo'd out on turn 3 before I find a way to do anything about it more fun than the same experience occuring before I lay a land.  And I certainly don't find it more fun than being combo'd out on turn 2 through the force of will my brainstorm found me to fight back with.

I seriously don't understand what you're even talking about here. All I get is that your stating that the current plans would be less consistent unless they were retooled. So yeah, feel free to clarify here.

Brainstorm makes it so you can consistently do *something* turn 2.  Sometimes, this is attempt to win the game.  Sometimes, this is preventing your opponent's attempt to end the game.

Removing brainstorm from the format will not make turn 1, 2, 3-on-the-play big plays not happen.  Those plays will happen less, but a coinciding decrease in the opposing deck's chances to stop them will probably mean they are similarly effective.  At very least it means the strictly mathematical hit to goldfish numbers will not directly translate into blowing an opponent out that much less.  I now have lotus-ritual-ritual-tutor X% less, but you now have FoW after your brainstorm Y% less, so while less early bombiness happens more of it sticks.

As an addition to that point, I'm also claiming that replacing losses in which you play cards but it's not enough, with losses in which you play nothing relevant, does not make the format more enjoyable.  Personally I feel the exact opposite.  I'd rather go brainstorm -> fow and have it countered than have no plays, from a purely fun standpoint.


For the record, I have weighed in on neither merchant scroll nor gush (nor dream halls, for that matter).  My argument is that brainstorm's effect is inherently fair and its abuseability stems from problematic things decks can do which don't involve brainstorm.

[nataz]

@Nataz, I agree with most of what you said, but we have very different emphasis as far as what we want out of playing T1.

If you rest. powder, and neuter flash while leaving brainstorm and scroll and gush untouched, all you've done is give a huge advantage to blue based control decks and GAT. GAT is still a monster, but now it has nothing but stax to keep it in check. Instead of having to fight the combo angle AND the prison angle, it can just focus on GAT/r, and not worry about having to be faster/have an answer for X. I want to have 2-3 "best" decks, and then a series of metagame foils, not just a single best deck and w/e can beat it. 

I'm okay with Leyline being a format staple similar to FOW. We need FOW because broken things happen, just as in order to play FOW you need to play with enough blue cards to make it worthwhile. I'm okay with needing something that doesn't pidgen hole you to run blue. While I don't always agree with Dan Yarrington's view of vintage, I have to agree with him when he says its not fair that you have to be blue to be "good". Needing FOW in the format is fine for a lot of current vintage players (not in every deck, but in many of the decks as a design constraint) because they are already in love with blue cards anyways (hey look- brainstorm). 

I don't fault you for being blue centric, I don't fault you for loving brainstorm, gifts and gat. But you are right, we want differnt things out of vintage.

and as for

Quote
Hasty Generalization
The hasty generalization is the use of an unacceptably small sample as the basis of a conclusion about the larger population.

I'm being harsh here, but c'mon.  There are plenty of good decks that didn't T8 at GenCon.

please, I know you follow top 8 numbers, and therefore you should be aware that GAT's been runing away with the prize in the US. Also, while Flash may be the #2 deck to beat as far as Top 8's, according to steve's numbers via SCG, GAT is the deck statistically most likely to take home the whole prize. The fact that it wins gencon in a GAT-on-GAT MIRROR match while flash isn't even there, and then not even consider GAT a problem is crazy talk.

and finally -

on GAT good in practice, Flash good in theory-

I don't think this is an accurate statement.  Tell this to Justin Timoney, or all the people in CA and PA who've won with Flash.

Uh - I was there with speed all day long, and most of that following night. I was standing behind him when he beat shay in the finals with stupid good luck. I even posted an interview with him that night after he won the event. I think Justin knows exactly what kind of deck flash is, and thats why he played GAT two weeks ago in Hadley - not flash.

[Dr. Sylvan]

This is the only reason why no one will call for the restriction of brainstorm. People are too much in love with the style of decks that it enables.

I agree, but this may be a good thing.  If restricting brainstorm would slow down the format, I'd support it.  However, it's very hard to say what its effect would be.

This question comes down to whether Brainstorm is more often useful for combo or for control, and to what degree.

A combo deck like Flash is using Brainstorm to find either combo components OR counterspells to protect itself. If we arbitrarily consider any deck with a slower gameplan than Flash to be the "control" in this hypothetical, that deck is primarily looking for an answer---a pitch counter or specific plan like Wipe Away or whatever this week's anti-Flash tech is. (Unless the game has already been prolonged past the first several turns, i.e. the control player has already fought off the initial assault.) So Flash has a higher number of cards it will be happy to see in the first couple turns.

As for the extent of its aid, a combo deck is planning to win the game with the fruits of its Brainstorm; a control deck is planning to not-lose. As we all know, winning is substantially more decisive. No one should pretend that Brainstorm helps combo and control equally in the same way that tutors always help combo more. The easier it is to see a larger share of your deck sooner, the more tilted the game becomes towards combo. There is a reason why formats with weaker tutors/draw are not infested with combo.

Clearly, my opinion counts less as an ex-T1 player, and I'm not gonna bother listing my utterly extreme B&R prescription because it wouldn't be the kind of format you all seem to like. I just wanted to add a token anti-blue voice to the discussion---ANY draw/search (or acceleration) restriction is a bigger blow to combo than control.

P.S. @G.I.: The logical fallacies page uses examples from debating the eternal question, "Who would win if Star Wars fought Star Trek?" I found it so long ago that I don't even remember how or why, but it was cool enough that I held onto the link.

[ErkBek]

I honestly think Scroll is a good card for vintage, except in its interaction with the Gush-bond engine. Decks that play scroll are typically blue combo-control decks that reward skill. These decks are very beatable and most importantly, the allow interactivity and enough time for opposing decks to employ their strategy. I think cards should be restricted only for the following reasons:

1) you don't get to do anything because of the card
2) they create a some sort of highly undisruptable effect that leads to winning
3) it creates a nearly unbeatable deck

I don't think gifts should have ever been restricted, because the deck was very disruptable and beatable. However, I do agree with the restriction of Trinisphere since you couldn't really do anything because of this card (barring drawing triple land or a FoW).

I believe Flash should go, largely because many games you don't get to do anything. Also, it's deck tries to eliminate all interactivity.

A component of Ichorid should get axed too, because excluding narrow hate cards the deck is highly undisruptable.

Gush and Merchant Scroll, I classify similarly to gifts. Both could be potentially restricted because they make great decks, however I believe GAT much like gifts was is very good, but beatable. I think more time is needed before either of these get the axe.

Finally, unrestricting Gush was a mistake. I'd like to see the following changes:

Restrict: Flash and Dread Return or Golgari Grave Troll

Unrestrict: All the chaff including Mox Diamond, Burning Wish, and Time Spiral

[Raph Caron]

I don't really have anything to say about the cards being talked about here, except for one : Brainstorm. People have been arguing about the impact of its restriction on combo and control. I say Brainstorm's restriction would hurt both. Any deck NOT playing Brainstorm would become better and aggro could become a possibility again! Duress becomes better, Wasteland becomes better... This is a good opportunity to slow down the format and make it more interactive! I'm pretty sure no one would leave Vintage if Brainstorm was restricted, but people like me would come back.

[Purple Hat]

I don't really have anything to say about the cards being talked about here, except for one : Brainstorm. People have been arguing about the impact of its restriction on combo and control. I say Brainstorm's restriction would hurt both. Any deck NOT playing Brainstorm would become better and aggro could become a possibility again! Duress becomes better, Wasteland becomes better... This is a good opportunity to slow down the format and make it more interactive! I'm pretty sure no one would leave Vintage if Brainstorm was restricted, but people like me would come back.

I would quit vintage if brainstorm were restricted.

Restricting brainstorm would have the same effect as restricting force of will...30% of the time you wouldn't have a chance in your games because your deck wouldn't function properly.  That's what brainstorm does right now.  It provides a consistency of play which allows players to develop strategies and have expectations about how things will work that are somewhat realistic.  Think about it.  Most type one decks are playing at least 10-15 one of's.  If you don't have brainstorm you're not going to be able to consistently play similar games over and over which is what is necessary for a predictable match up and metagame.

[Grand Inquisitor]

Instead of having to fight the combo angle AND the prison angle, it can just focus on GAT/r, and not worry about having to be faster/have an answer for X. I want to have 2-3 "best" decks, and then a series of metagame foils, not just a single best deck and w/e can beat it.

True, but I think there's a greater chance that Goblins, Stax, Ritual.dec will gain even more relative to GAT once they don't have to worry about Flash or Ichorid.  As Kobefan mentions, GAT (and Gifts before it) are highly beatable decks once you can dedicate good hate towards them.  Why Flash and Ichorid are so distorting is that the hate directed towards them is so unique and not splashable to other archetypes (more ichorid than flash).  In situations like the current meta it's reactive decks that suffer when they're spread too thin.

I'm okay with Leyline being a format staple similar to FOW

As am I, really.  However, I'm not ok with my sole survival depending on mulliganing into it and then having FoW>Silence.

The fact that it wins gencon in a GAT-on-GAT MIRROR match while flash isn't even there, and then not even consider GAT a problem is crazy talk.

I'm not saying we shouldn't consider GAT's performance of late, however, I think just looking at GenCon and saying 'OMG restrict GAT' is a narrow perspective (not necessarily your own).  I'm more of the mind of Shockwave where deck dominance isn't as important to me as the way decks operate relative to T1 standards.  GAT seems pretty fair, and while it may be the best deck, its prominence seems to be due to the best players playing it, and lots of people playing it in large numbers; not that it's unbeatable.

thats why he played GAT two weeks ago in Hadley - not flash

Right, and GAT was probably one of the worst metagame calls for that tournament.  Outlaw's really good, and there was enough GAT there so that one of the decks would probably T8, but that tournament (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=33815.0) was a great example of how the metagame can correct for GAT.  As for it relative to Flash, him switching to GAT confirms another earlier point of mine.  Decks like Flash and Ichorid are powerful, but they can't leverage playskill, so better players will choose more consistent and resilient (though less powerful) decks.

No one should pretend that Brainstorm helps combo and control equally in the same way that tutors always help combo more. The easier it is to see a larger share of your deck sooner, the more tilted the game becomes towards combo.

The more I hear from other people, the more I'm interested in the idea of restricting brainstorm.  However, I expect the implications of this change are beyond the conjecture and intuition of most of us here.  I'd want to heavily playtest a brainstormless format before offering a recommendation on restricting it.  It would rework the entire format.

Whereas before I said brainstorm's restriction is proof of critical mass, perhaps it is brainstorms availability as a 4-of that is pushing us towards it.  If Nataz is right that Flash is unviable without it, this thread may have a simpler, albeit more radical solution.

If you don't have brainstorm you're not going to be able to consistently play similar games over and over which is what is necessary for a predictable match up and metagame.

Hal, you nailed it, but I think I disagree with you that T1 should be about being able to find those 10-15 powerful 1-of's.

[Smmenen]

GAT seems pretty fair, and while it may be the best deck, its prominence seems to be due to the best players playing it, and lots of people playing it in large numbers; not that it's unbeatable.

I'm not going to engage this debate, but I wanted to make a small correction, factually.     GAT was not present at Gencon in large numbers.   I don't think there were more than 10 and definitely not more than 13 players (10% of the field) piloting it.    It was probably the third most popular deck after Flash (which was omnipresent) and Workshops.    Since I had two round byes, I had an opportunity to walk around in the first few rounds and get a sense for what most of the room was playing.   

[Purple Hat]

If you don't have brainstorm you're not going to be able to consistently play similar games over and over which is what is necessary for a predictable match up and metagame.

Hal, you nailed it, but I think I disagree with you that T1 should be about being able to find those 10-15 powerful 1-of's.

You misunderstand me.  What I mean to say is that 1/4 of your deck is singletons therefore you can't have the consistency that other formats are able to produce by playing almost all 3 and 4 ofs.  It's not finding the 1 ofs that's the problem, it's that the 1 of's get in the way of finding the 4 ofs.  your deck is inheirently inconsistent because it CAN'T play many of the same card.  our manabases are disasters in part because if you're playing 5 moxen, crypt and sol ring you're probably playing at least 4 colorless mana sources.  But you can't add mana and you need the off color to power your colorless spells and speed up your deck, so you need a filter.  A way to cut through the chaff and find things that you actually want to cast.  We need brainstorm because the powerlevel of the cards enforces an inconsistency on the format by insisting that we play many singletons.  Brainstorm allows us to correct for this.

[Grand Inquisitor]

We need brainstorm because the powerlevel of the cards enforces an inconsistency on the format by insisting that we play many singletons.  Brainstorm allows us to correct for this.

But what if restricted brainstorm allows less powerful cards being played more consistently to be a viable strategy?  Wouldnt' that be a good thing right now?

[Purple Hat]

I don't see that ever being a viable strategy outside of things like goblins.  I guess you could end up with a format that was like legacy except there were a coupple people running around randomly winning on turn 1 with some kind of combo deck in every tournament.  turn 1 wins rarely require brainstorm to work, so the turn 1 kills would still work fine, in fact they'd work better because your opponent would never go land, brainstorm into force of will, counter your turn 1 kill.

[Grand Inquisitor]

turn 1 wins rarely require brainstorm to work, so the turn 1 kills would still work fine, in fact they'd work better because your opponent would never go land, brainstorm into force of will, counter your turn 1 kill.

That's interesting.  I took Dr. Sylvan's comment (that brainstorm aids combo more than control) at face value and it made sense to me.  you seem to be saying the opposite.  I don't see the discussion on Brainstorm going forward without coming to a concensus on this point.

I wanted to make a small correction, factually.     GAT was not present at Gencon in large numbers.   I don't think there were more than 10 and definitely not more than 13 players (10% of the field) piloting it

With all due respect, champ, unless they come out with SCG like decklists, we simply won't know.  Also, there's abundant evidence of other events having approximately 20% or more of the field playing GAT:

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=33565.0
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=33578.0
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=33564.0
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=33614.0
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=33766.0
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=34003.0
etc.

Perhaps GenCon was an exception to this, perhaps not.  There's no question, however, that people like to play the deck in large numbers and that this is somewhat a factor in it taking a lot of T8's.

[SpencerForHire]

Could Gencon's event being sanctioned and hense lacking of proxies have any affect on the field being less composed of GAT?

(Rumor has it Ichorid and Flash both operate without full power.)

[Purple Hat]

Could Gencon's event being sanctioned and hense lacking of proxies have any affect on the field being less composed of GAT?

(Rumor has it Ichorid and Flash both operate without full power.)

so does gat, and ichorid requires 4 bazaars which ain't exactly cheap.  the most common decks I saw at gencon were stax and flash.  Stax not only requires full power but also a set of shops and often times a singleton bazaar so I don't think the lower gat numbers were based on power issues.  Gat doesn't even run a full set and runs very few other expensive cards (library is entirely unnecessary for the deck).

@GI: I think brainstorm makes combo decks more prone to killing on turn 2 and later, but if you're casting brainstorm for any reason other than putting something back so you can LED into it with a combo deck you're probably not winning on turn 1 following a brainstorm opening.  that's not to say that brainstorm doesnt' sometimes turn up like ritual, lotus, bargain and you're holding a random mox, or lotus, flash, protean hulk, but I find that in general if I'm casting brainstorm I'm gonna set up to win next turn or even turn 3.  Iif you restrict brainstorm the combo decks therefore become worse in the late game but better in the early game since the control decks are mulling more and less able to find force of will or replace cards in their hand with more disruption to further their game plan.

[Smmenen]

decks like grim long or pitch long are not playable without Brainstorm.

[Grand Inquisitor]

decks like grim long or pitch long are not playable without Brainstorm.

I don't think I could find stronger evidence that we can take the brainstorm discussion beyond the combo vs. control dilemma.  Also, since Nataz offered this earlier:

With out brainstorm flash would not exist

...we can continue with the idea that ritual based decks and flash would be neutered by the restriction of brainstorm.

Brainstorm is the most absurd draw card in the format that's not named Ancestral Recall. The shortcuts the card allows you to take in deck-design are staggering if only looked at from a mana base perspective, let alone the top down structure of how most Vintage decks are designed nowadays. If you ever wanted to put a damper on the outrageous nature of Vintage decks without doing a series of cascading reactions and just wiping out all the key cards in top decks, this is the card you pull the trigger on.

Having played the 4 brainstorm, 20 land, 30 blue card, 6 kills configuration often throughout my T1 career, I would say that this change would be exactly what GAT's critics are looking for.

I started out with defending brainstorm because it was too integral to the current geist of vintage, but I think for that same reason, it's restriction may allow an altogether different future for the format.

[Dxfiler]

This is the only reason why no one will call for the restriction of brainstorm. People are too much in love with the style of decks that it enables.

Unfortunatly, this applies to Flash v. Gush also. Sure, flash is good, but it doesn't put up the numbers that Gush does. Flash is good in thoery, but Gush is good in practice. Flash didn't even top 8 at Gencon, but it was a GAT mirror in the finals. Yet, people love playing GAT, and people are too lazy to build against Flash, therefore flash suddenly becomes the "dangerous" card.

Hi Nataz.  I didn't get to respond to you on the other restrict thread because it became locked.  You pretty much said here what you said there... I pretty much still disagree with it all :p

First on brainstorm.  What style of decks are you referring to?  It doesn't just show up in tier 1 decks.  Brainstorm helps to make tier 2 decks and lower playable.  Smenenen said that decks like grim or pitch long are not playable without brainstorm... what about fish?!   The archtype as a whole wouldn't be even remotely a contender without brainstorm.  You'd just have a couple little contenders that couldn't stand up over 7-8 rounds because they'd crumble to the more powerful decks.  Brainstorm let's fish play on that level.

Brainstorm just doesn't help the tier one decks, it let's other decks stand a chance.

Now you could argue that it's just too helpful since it does show up in every top 8 usually in doses of 50% or more, but then as others have said...we get on dangerous territory by using that logic.  Force of Will is in pretty much every deck brainstorm is in... why don't people call for that to be restricted? 

Yes Brainstorm is a little too good, but so is force.  Being a little to good is completely different from being format warping.  In my book something has to be format warping to be restriction worthy, which I feel merchant scroll certainly is right now.  Hands down.  More on that later.  Brainstorm, while probably being the best draw spell that isn't ancestral, does not automatically win the game.  It can change your position, but often you need to draw into gas and if you don't then you want something to shuffle the chaff away, like a fetch.  Brainstorm is most dangerous in the hands of a great player, because everyone casts it at different times but it is only truly effective when cast at the optimal time.  When to cast it on your turn and when to cast it on their turn are totally subjective to whatever particular scenario you're in and what deck you're playing with and against.  It's not something like gifts or scroll where you just get the cards you need to bail you out and it's usually pretty obvious.  Using Brainstorm is anything but obvious.  Especially with 4 duress flying around everywhere right now, brainstorm seems to be kept in check just fine.  I do think it's the best it's ever been, but that's because it gets you into the problem cards like scroll, gush and flash... the ones that deservedly have much scrutiny on them right now as B & R candidates.

All this said, what would I do? Nothing. I think we are fine where were are now. We have a solid tier of decks that are the best decks - i.e., flash (combo) and gush (good.dec). This creates a meta-game that can evolve to deal with both decks - see stax (prison). In addition we have outliers that are still relevent that add additional constraints on deckbuilding - see ichorid (aggro-combo), goblins (aggro), and bomberman/landstill (control). In addition, having an established meta-game leaves room for innovation since a predicatble metagame is an attackable meta game. See Dan Yarrington's recent TMWA, or even something like fish where you have to build right to win.

Meh.  Fish and TMWA don't win tourneys right now.  If you get an exceptionally good pilot behind one of those decks, yes they can crack a top 8... but they simply can't win the tourney.  Myself or Dan or whoever else piloting those decks with a clue will eventually just fall to the deck with 4 merchant scrolls.  I watched it happen to Dan and god knows it's happened to me enough the past few months.

What does this mean?  Should we just play the best deck and stop calling for restrictions?  ELD certainly tells me to everytime I see him :p  I just have an issue with being forced to run 'the best' deck by a mile' or be at a severe disadvantage.  It's not like I'm running completely different cards from GAT or Flash.  I have FOW's, Brainstorms, a good amount of the restricted one of's.... I mean it's getting to the point where pretty much all decks have to run the exact same cards to win a tournament.  Notice I said win, not top 8.  Look at what's been winning tournaments... gencon had a 4 scroll on scroll finals.  As did my tourney.  Dan's had a 4 scroll deck win his last one as well. 

To me, the problem is CLEARLY merchant scroll.  It blows my mind when I see people calling for restrictions on Flash or Gush (or even ichorid pieces... I'm with you on that one.  Why the hell are people calling for ichorid pieces to be restricted right now? :p) over merchant scroll.  Merchant Scroll is what makes flash and GAT just strictly better than everything else.  GAT sets itself up with amazing game states after resolvingl merchant scroll, and flash either sets up to kill you on turns 2-3 with it or just flat out kills you on turn 1 thanks to scroll (hard to do...but it's happened.  Believe me, I know :p). 

Yes, other decks are playable in this environment... but if you want to WIN, you're just shortchanging yourself if not playing a deck with 4 merchant scroll.  That's my problem.  Good players can get into top 8 with their own decks, but they WILL fall to the guy running merchant scroll more often than not because they just aren't on the same level card wise.  Being a better player doesn't matter if your opponent just has the better toolbox to work with.  No, you're not forced to play without merchant scroll and you as a player make the choice to handicap yourself...

but why should we be forced to play with it if we want to win the tournament?

- Dave Feinstein