Oath of druids in the current meta.

[Rock Lee]

Tyrant Oath is a force to be reckoned with, well done... So yeah, what would you say is Tyrant Oath's weakest matchup? I'm just curious.

By far. Pure combo is Oath's worst matchup. Oath has to give your opponent one turn between Oath resolving and Oath winning. Pure combo is the only deck that efficiently abuses this weakness.

Fortunately for Oath, pure combo is at an all-time low. The "combo" decks all use blue. For this reason, duress, misdirection, & ReB are able to stave off any attempts at control or combo long enough for big blue to end their hopes and dreams.

Grim Long, in its older bomb-oriented black-mana forms would destroy Oath. A well placed top-deck tutor for an appropriate bomb will make sure Superman 2.0 never shows up to save the day.

Despite the MANY good answers to Oath of Druids in Staxx's potential arsenal, (Eon Hub, Jester's Cap, Chalice of the Void, etc.) Artifact oriented solutions are poor at best. While heavy costed Artifact answers have the ability to totally shut down Oath, the only real threat to Oath is a deck designed to win on an early pivotal turn. For this reason, Flash is Oath's worst matchup.

What deck I really fear though, is not Flash. Flash's inconsistency requires a huge amount of improbable hands. The more rounds of a tournament, the less flash you see. What I really fear is an innovative new deck with high amounts of consistency, akin to Grim Long of the days of lore.

[Rock Lee]

What about a Gilded Dranke http://magiccards.info/us/en/76.html? I think he has a great interaction with Tyrant... !

If Gilded Drake was a non-creature permanent, I would consider this. =) I believe Gilded Drake has a better interaction with cheap bounce spells, not a huge monster of a bounce spell. ^^

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

Tyrant Oath is a force to be reckoned with, well done... So yeah, what would you say is Tyrant Oath's weakest matchup? I'm just curious.

By far. Pure combo is Oath's worst matchup. Oath has to give your opponent one turn between Oath resolving and Oath winning. Pure combo is the only deck that efficiently abuses this weakness.

Fortunately for Oath, pure combo is at an all-time low. The "combo" decks all use blue. For this reason, duress, misdirection, & ReB are able to stave off any attempts at control or combo long enough for big blue to end their hopes and dreams.

Grim Long, in its older bomb-oriented black-mana forms would destroy Oath. A well placed top-deck tutor for an appropriate bomb will make sure Superman 2.0 never shows up to save the day.

Despite the MANY good answers to Oath of Druids in Staxx's potential arsenal, (Eon Hub, Jester's Cap, Chalice of the Void, etc.) Artifact oriented solutions are poor at best. While heavy costed Artifact answers have the ability to totally shut down Oath, the only real threat to Oath is a deck designed to win on an early pivotal turn. For this reason, Flash is Oath's worst matchup.

What deck I really fear though, is not Flash. Flash's inconsistency requires a huge amount of improbable hands. The more rounds of a tournament, the less flash you see. What I really fear is an innovative new deck with high amounts of consistency, akin to Grim Long of the days of lore.

As far as combo/flash as a bad match up, it depends on your oath,configuration. Duress, Chalice of the void, t-crypt, and misdirection(somewhat) are all viable sb cards that greatly improve this match up. Mana drain is sub optimal. Even with a good sb, they are very hard games to win due to raw speed.

I tested against shop a great deal a while back, both as and against oath. This match up is nearly impossible for the shop player.

As for guiled drake, oathing it out with out tide spout is terrible. In addition I'd rather just out right kill an opponent with trikvus then take control of all their creatures, assuming the deck has creatures,  and messing around for a few turns.

[Methuselahn]

Fortunately for Oath, pure combo is at an all-time low. The "combo" decks all use blue. For this reason, duress, misdirection, & ReB are able to stave off any attempts at control or combo long enough for big blue to end their hopes and dreams.

Grim Long, in its older bomb-oriented black-mana forms would destroy Oath.

As far as combo/flash as a bad match up, it depends on your oath,configuration. Duress, Chalice of the void, t-crypt, and misdirection(somewhat) are all viable sb cards that greatly improve this match up. Mana drain is sub optimal. Even with a good sb, they are very hard games to win due to raw speed.

I tested against shop a great deal a while back, both as and against oath. This match up is nearly impossible for the shop player.

This is all true.  Oath loses to combo because it passes the turn.  The key is to not play Oath when Ritual combo decks and the like are powerful. 

Right now, I would hazard to guess that many people percieve today's field as an aggro environment.  Oath thrives in aggro metas.  Aggro decks like MUD, MWSr, and Goblins naturally trump aggro control GAT strategies by matching draw with clocks.   Then you have 9Balls, a deck tailor made to beat the crap out of GAT with all of its spheres.  Luckily, *you* only have to resolve one spell versus Shop decks, the Oath.  So things look alright for Oath right now.

One thing I'm not sure of, and wouldn't mind seeing some discussion on, is the mirror.  First, is Blessing-Oath better than Will-Oath here?  Classic ICBM versus Tyrant/Gushbond?  (Oath with hate versus a more combo version)

Guilded Drake is bad and win-more.  Heck, we even cut the Trikes though.  Ask yourself, Do you ever want to see Trike first?  It' just not worth it.

Jeff

[Rock Lee]

Glad to see Reflection beginning to add input on this thread Jeff!

Harle and I have been rethinking our logic of Triskelavus. Aside from the similarities of brain freeze, Trisk offers you a "Plan B" via Tinker. It answers Magus, death to spirits, & removal. The benefit we have not explored here is that Brain Freeze also offers a Plan B, through a huge oath'd Yawg and that brain freeze can win you games on its own.

There are many facets to the mirror, which have not been discussed heavily here. (Harle and I were holding out on our Mirror knowledge until people started doing well and we'd actually SEE mirrors!)

1. Oath is a liability. "The Orchard Wars"
The best and worst 4 cards of your library are Forbidden Orchard. You WILL win or lose based on this card. Overuse of Orchard before an oath hits the board will cause you a horrible humiliating death from spirit beats. Lack of preparation and setup when your opponent drops an orchard will spell doom. The Oath mirror is a huge balancing act. It is NOT simply "who got luckier and drew more orchards" it IS "who brought a deck that can get them what they need efficiently."

2. Mass removal & Time Walk. "The 'Oh Shit' factor"
Chain of Vapor, Time Walk, Show and Tell, Development, Triskelavus, Fastbond all will sweep the board's favor in your direction either Sofar as enabling oathing or moving forward the aggro plan.

3. Tempo versus Control "Landstill revisited"
ICBM always has been tempo-oriented. Tyrant Oath, even in its will-oriented form, is control oriented. Because the card Oath is symmetrical, ICBM Oath needs to change their focus in order to have an advantage in this matchup. Tyrant Oath simply needs to do what it does best, see tons of cards and make the most informed play. I personally feel the ICBM Oath "Mirror" is not even worth worrying about. ICBM Oath is simply Fish, where you have to be mindful of Orchard wars.

::EDIT:: I debated making a pro's & con's list of Tyrant versus ICBM oath. But honestly its going to be a massacre, and any player good enough to care about the mirror will be able to pick out ICBM's inherent weaknesses in this matchup.

4. Blessing versus Krosan "I have so many irrelevant plays!"
Blessing was Anti-Slaver tech, and has persisted mostly on that foundation. The ability to abuse an AK, cast more merchant scrolls for Ancestral, do super-broken-amazing things after you've already won the dang game, are all irrelevant. Krosan remains amazing because it is instant, castable twice, & undoes topdeck affects, none of which Blessing offers with any degree of competence.

5. Tyrant Mirror "moar heartburn please!"
This matchup is very similar to the GAT mirror. All of the concerns of the orchard war is prevalent. Often winning involves a game winning Yawg, who resolves Recall first, or other absurd card advantage. Fastbond is key for multiple reasons (orchard laying, card drawing, insanity) but can also kill you if you are in danger to death via spirits and you cannot find Time Walk. If Oath is one of the most skill-intensive decks to play right now, the Oath Mirror, is the most stressful matchup you can face.

[The Atog Lord]

Harlequin, Jeremiah, Hex -- this has been an awesome thread.

Now, onto a few points about Reflection's build of Oath compared to the preexisting builds:

Brain Freeze Pros:
- Ensures that you always Oath into a Djinn
- Allows you to counter Card Disadvantage tutors
- Don't like what you returned with Brain Storm? Mill it away.
- Pitches to Force of Will
- Random wins against Bomberman and Ichorid
- Doesn't require that you get a creature into play to win

Trisk Pros:
- Enables maindeck Tinker
- Makes show and tell viable by being a third threatening permanent
- Doesn't get stopped by things like opposing Gaea's Blessing or Platinum Angel like Brain Freeze can
- Makes the deck much much easier to win with
- Can be hardcast, especially Triskelion
- Finding and playing Trisk while going off requires no colored mana

For some of the other cards we changed:

Thoughtseize:
I never once took a creature all day.
Thoughtseize got Misdirected a couple of times.
The lifeloss mattered in at least one game.
The idea behind this card over Misdirection is that it would be useful against more decks than Misdirection. Goblins, Bomberman, anything with Magus, Stax -- these don't much card about Misdirection, but Thoughtseize could be excellent.

Red Splash:
The idea behind splashing Red is that the deck already has four lands which tap for any color, so getting Red should be less difficult here than in GAT. Since we already have Red in GAT, then, we should have it here. Red Blasts give the deck more control spells; this is important against GAT since before boarding they have more than you. Shattering Spree is another card enabled by Red. It costs one, which avoids getting stopped by Chalice for Two. It has replicate, which the Orchards should allow -- we might as well take advantage of using those polychromatic lands. Finally, having a Fire to grab against Magus makes me feel better.

[Harlequin]

So I've been working on this post on and off sinse lunch (at work), and some of the points may be reduntant with what Rich just posted... actually alot of them are - but I'll post them so people can see my persepect.

The reflection build is interesting, but personally, I wouldn't play it at any tournement with less than 50 people.  It is great at what it does, and Team Reflection has taken the plunge into a "Streamline" Tyrant Oath build.  Trimming all the fat off the deck until it is basically GAT with a Tyrant core.  They are 1 merchant scroll away from GAT's infamous 4 ponder, 4 gush, 4 scrolls.  They have no Tinker, no Show and Tell, no R&D (one creature in the board), and optted to add Brainfreeze. 

I can't deny that the "Will It Blend" (our new team name) build of Tyrant Oath that Jer and Myself play will NOT go 7-0 against GAT.  It's more of a 4-3 deck. The reflection deck more focused on winning, but I think it also makes it more fragile to disruption.  I'll bet if the reflection deck faced off against Ray with Staxless Stax (assuming he knew you were playing Oath) you would bearly have a favorable match.  And Ray will be the first to tell you that he really does not like facing our deck.  I think the main stumbling blocks will be that a turn 1 Crucible or early Chalice @2 are both "must counters."   Also Duress/Seize means you have to fetch non-basic early to attempt to pre-empt those threats.  Which is a dangerous move, maybe not this turn or next turn.. but in the immediate future.  In our build, we side heavy in against shops - including 4 oxidizes and 3 pithing needle taht 90% of the time 1st names Wasteland.

On a bit of a side note, I see no real advantage to Shattering Spree over Oxidize.  I immagine it was precautionary against Plats of Negation... but instant speed, and the ability to hit the dude carrying Sword of F/I make Oxidize a superior choice IMO.

With so little access to creatures in the board, The Reflection build seems to have a bigger problem with removal.  In the later rounds of waterbury, I faced two decks back to back with 4 maindeck swords to plow, in addition to other nasties like Seal of cleansing, EE, and Extirpate.  In this matchup the resilance and diversity of the Will it Blend build shines.  Triskellavus won be the game on the back of flying Mog fanatics (after Triskv decided to take up a new career in aggroculture).  In that match I was able to salvage a Tidespout into my hand by burning my Krosan Rec - and after that first oath, my Yawg and 3 brainstorms were also in the yard... unsalvagable because Rec was already used.  So Tyrant in hand was nearly dead.  I won that match because I had 5 creatures in the deck... one of which counted as 3 flying mog fanatics.

Not to deminish or Marginalize Rich's deck or 11 and ZERO tournement experiance - but I think some of his sucess can be attributed to getting favorable pairings.  But to his credit - that was likely the intentional approach.  Knowing that if he could get through round 2 (with his round 1 bye), the top tables would be concentrated with GAT... so the plan I assume was to stick to those top tables, and not get pulled down by the X-1 "Claws."  Where I admittedly spent most of my TMDXII day... and ultimatly lost in the end.

As Jer explains above, the Oath Mirror is like walking the edge of a knife. At any moment you could slip and fall and lose and important part of your body   You really have to play Orchard like a pro, and tap it at exactly the moment.  If you don't play orchards agressivly enough, you run the risk of not being able to win if an oath hits the board.  However, If you play your orchards too agressivly, then you run the risk of losing a counterwar over Oath and getting killed via spirit beats.  So you have to know what "Mode" you personally are in, and your oppenent will be int he opposite Mode.  Are you playing "Resolve Oath" or are you playing "OMG Don't let Oath Resolve."   

From what I know about the deck, the Will it Blend build will have several advantages over Reflection build if they were to face-off.  Ultimately Cards like Show and Tell, and Tinker are as important as Oath when trying to tip your opponent off thier balance.  Tinker for Triskelavus wins the mirror straight up.  He can shift gears from "Beats" to "Oath" litterally in an instant.  Attacking for an unblockable 4 damage a turn AND can swing a 6 creature split when oath hits.  I will admith that Chain of Vapor is another great gearshifting card, but doesn't actually speed you any if you are winning the beats plan.  Show and Tell is a dangerous Tie breaker.  If the game hits a stalemate, Show and Tell will generally end the tie - no gaurentee's it will be in your favor though. Lastly, Brainfreeze is generally terrible in the mirror... unless you hit yourself before a Yawg.

[The Atog Lord]

Harlequin,

Excellent, well-considered post. I by no means wish to imply that the Reflection build of Oath is optimal, nor do I make any attempt to say that you and your team ought to abandon your build and play ours. No doubt, there are going to be  cases where a player would finish with a better record with your build than our build in a given tournament. The Oath deck has many variables and configuring these properly for a given tournament will prove a recurrent challenge.

You're right that the Reflection build is basically GAT with a few additions and subtractions. It plays much like GAT does. The cards in the deck for the purpose of winning the game are minimized; thus no Show or Tinker. In their place, we have draw spells and control elements. This is, I think, part of beating GAT with the deck. That said, againset a deck with Workshops, I could certainly see Tinker doing more good than Thoughtseize.

[Harlequin]

Totally Agree.  I think if this thread proves nothing else, it proves that the design space for "Oath" is enormous, and thats part of the reason it appeals to me personally.  There is so much room for metagaming. 

I'm just super-pumped that the next waterbury playmat will have a Tidespout Tyrant on it!

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

Fortunately for Oath, pure combo is at an all-time low. The "combo" decks all use blue. For this reason, duress, misdirection, & ReB are able to stave off any attempts at control or combo long enough for big blue to end their hopes and dreams.

Grim Long, in its older bomb-oriented black-mana forms would destroy Oath.

As far as combo/flash as a bad match up, it depends on your oath,configuration. Duress, Chalice of the void, t-crypt, and misdirection(somewhat) are all viable sb cards that greatly improve this match up. Mana drain is sub optimal. Even with a good sb, they are very hard games to win due to raw speed.

I tested against shop a great deal a while back, both as and against oath. This match up is nearly impossible for the shop player.

This is all true.  Oath loses to combo because it passes the turn.  The key is to not play Oath when Ritual combo decks and the like are powerful. 

Right now, I would hazard to guess that many people percieve today's field as an aggro environment.  Oath thrives in aggro metas.  Aggro decks like MUD, MWSr, and Goblins naturally trump aggro control GAT strategies by matching draw with clocks.   Then you have 9Balls, a deck tailor made to beat the crap out of GAT with all of its spheres.  Luckily, *you* only have to resolve one spell versus Shop decks, the Oath.  So things look alright for Oath right now.

One thing I'm not sure of, and wouldn't mind seeing some discussion on, is the mirror.  First, is Blessing-Oath better than Will-Oath here?  Classic ICBM versus Tyrant/Gushbond?  (Oath with hate versus a more combo version)

Guilded Drake is bad and win-more.  Heck, we even cut the Trikes though.  Ask yourself, Do you ever want to see Trike first?  It' just not worth it.

Jeff

Sorry if this post seems a little scatter brained, but I'm pretty sleep deprived right now.

I'd like to start off by stating every game 2 against oath mirror starts with sbing out 2 oath of druids. This is one of the most painful match ups I've ever had to play. I recall in the old icbm oath mirror, the winner was whoever activated oath first, or whoever went under the radar and casted SSS. This was a match up that had one of 2 outcomes:
1: I managed to find more Orchard/waste than you.(Sometimes by luck, sometimes by clever tutor/crop rotation/intuition/loaming)
2.: We managed to stall the gaming out giving each other tokens long enough for me to cast this ridiculous creature.
Tyrant oath has some additional options.
3: I was able to tinker, FTW or pop off a few of my spirits
4:Show and tell
5: I went broken off will (this typically end with finding more orchard or show and tell, so it might be a little redundant)

If your running EE there is always the amazing "Set EE to 0. EOT tap 2x orchard while token trigger is on the stack pop EE" play.

being able to bounce oath of druids after activation is amazing. not to mention the possibility of just combing out before your opponent gets to oath is amazing.
I'd like to second spree not being necessary.  First of the match up is already very favorable, second, chalice @ 2 counters chalice @1. most of the time all I really care about stax resolving is chalice @ 2. running show and tell makes me care slightly less about chalice. The few games shop wins will be by getting ahead on tempo, oxidize is a simple 1 drop that fixes this problem. However, I am in no way saying splashing red is a bad idea.

As for the mirror with icbm oath. As I've previously mentioned before, I had piloted that deck a lot in my day. In fact putting that build down was what started this thread. The icbm build as a lot of sub optimal cards for the mirror, factory just gives you a way to kill your tokens, and there draw engine is weak compared to gush. your more likely to find your orchards then they are. Loam digging for orchards is pretty slow when all is said and done. The one card you fear in the match up is wasteland.

@ the lord atog
Thanks a lot for showing some interest in the deck and sharing you results/views with us.
There are definite pro's and con's with each oath target configurations, as you pointed out. I'd like to point out that in this thread we've definitely went over the benefits of trikevus over trike (this was very relevant in testing and I just wanted to make sure this wasn't over looked). This includes access to additional permanents in the face of smoke stax, being better against aggro, and FLYING. Not to mention the down side of needed 3 mana when your not going off. Also, unning a robot combo gives you the additional benefit of having the other half your combo found by an oath activation.

Also, in my testing I've found that 2x tyrant works better with show and tell than one with 1 and trikvus.

I'm not saying on is better than the other, ultimately  its a meta game call, but there are things I take into consideration while decided which to play before a tourney

[lupin]

this is a very competitive list of ttoath...
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Demonic Tutor
3 Duress
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish\remand #1\
3 Deep Analysis\remand#2\
4 Force of Will
3 Intuition\remand#3\ tyrant #2
4 Mana Drain
1 Misdirection
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Time Walk
1 Krosan Reclamation
4 Oath of Druids



Lands (15):
2 Flooded Strand
4 Forbidden Orchard
2 Island
3 Polluted Delta
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea



sideboard:
1 Brain Freeze
3 Chalice of the Void
1 Echoing Truth
2 Energy Flux
3 Pithing needle
1 Massacre
1 Misdirection
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Vampiric Tutor

 
gush with orchard? show and tell? lol

[The Atog Lord]

Lupin,

Welcome to The Mana Drain. In an attempt to keep this thread free of ugly bold text, I'd like to ask you to explain your card choices. "lol" does not a sufficient argument make. Why have you chosen Deep Analysis over Gush or Thirst? What about the presence of Misdirection in the metagame? And why, given the numerous choices available, do you opt for Remand as your 1U counter? Please put some flesh on your skeletal post.

Rich

[lupin]

Lupin,

Welcome to The Mana Drain. In an attempt to keep this thread free of ugly bold text, I'd like to ask you to explain your card choices. "lol" does not a sufficient argument make. Why have you chosen Deep Analysis over Gush or Thirst? What about the presence of Misdirection in the metagame? And why, given the numerous choices available, do you opt for Remand as your 1U counter? Please put some flesh on your skeletal post.

Rich

remand:  in a gushmeta is probably the best caunter you can play... remand on a gush without  fastbond= 3 time walk(no bad)...
deep: after you active oath deep can help you to search the card that you must have in your hand(second mox or cunning wish)to finish the game THE TURN AFTER ACTIVATION and it is very good for use the mana of mana drain and is the better card you can use vs control.
gush and orchard IMHO is an horrible choise because there are 2 unsynergy, one is gush and orchard, the second is gush and drain... gush in this deck is the worse choice u can use to draw...
show and tell: a brainstorm is better, don't use another slot and make us to remove an another  horrible card like creature #2 or #3...

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

@ lupin
gush and orchard lack of synergy has already been covered in this thread, If I'm not mistaken all of the major participants in this thread have tested gush and just about every alternative draw engine out there (including deep anal). Our results are for the most part the same, gush works just fine in the build. Theoretically your gush theory is sound, but mechanically, you couldn't me more wrong. In the hands of a good player gush wins you games. Perhaps you should try testing gush again.

Deep anal: this card has flash back, but that doesn't necessarily make it good. In my testing I found lose of life to be relevant. Not to mention it never found me the missing piece of the combo I was looking for. when you think about it, it comes down to the following:
deep anal: +2 vision/draw. -3 life. -2 mana. misdirection target.  kills you off fast bond.        does not evade wasteland.  needs your win condition on line to be good
gush:      +2 vision/draw  .-2 life. +2 mana. no misd target.   goes broken off fast bond . evades waste land.            Is good immediately
If your looking for a flash back card to find a piece of your combo, I recommend flash of insight. It has the potential to go more broken than deep anal.

remand:the problem with remand is that your giving them the card back. Remand nets you ZERO cards, next turn, when you opponent cast gush again, they've still gained card advantage over you. Even assuming that you duress or counter gush the second time around, they have still gained card advantage over your. The missed land drops your opponent has is completely irrelevant unless 1 of two things happens
1 you have a wasteland in your hand
2 your playing a bad player who gushed at a point where being down lands in play was a bad play.
In the case of the first, your not running wasteland. and for scenario number two, even if they resolved gush they're still in a bad spot.
Not to mention I've definitely casted gush before with the only purpose of netting mana and adding to storm, hoping to god my opponent would force this spell adding to storm leaving me with exactly 

show and tell: Your overlooking the synergy between Tidespout and show and tell. Brainstorm has never gotten a piece of aggro on the field after an oath stifle with lethal on the board. In short, I've never killed some one turn one with brainstorm, I have with show and tell.

If these are the conclusions you've reached after testing the ideas in this thread, I'd have to strongly recomend you retest some of these ideas

[Harlequin]

I agree with H3x.  Just one minor point to add...

show and tell: Your overlooking the synergy between Tidespout and show and tell. Brainstorm has never gotten a piece of aggro on the field after an oath stifle with lethal on the board. In short, I've never killed some one turn one with brainstorm, I have with show and tell.

Also, who is cutting brainstorms for Show and Tell??  You can't compare a card you cut with cards we already run 4 of, and plan to run 4 of, with another card we already run.  By that logic, you shouldn't run anything other than Recall, because while show and tell is good... It doesn't draw you 3 cards for 1 mana instantly! 

Compared to your list, Show and Tell is most like Cunning Wish in purpose and tempo.  And Cunning wish again, has already been wieghed, messured, and come up short in oath. 

EDIT: another point about Orchard/Gush dis-synergy...

GAT "Island" Count--
2 basic
6 fetch
6 duals

Gush Oath "Island" Count--
2 basics
5 fetches
5 duals

So even though you have 4 forbiddens in the deck, your Island base is only 2 lands off from that of GAT.  So yes, It is obviously weaker... and Yes, sometimes you don't find enough lands yto Gush.  But also you don't auto-lose like GAT does if they don't find island #2 quickly. 

[flaffafffl]

For someone who isn't familiar with vintage, what deck would you suggest they play so they could get used to a deck like this one? I would just play this one, but it seems really skill intensive. And unfortunatly, I have no skill at the moment. I need something to warm up on!

[Harlequin]

Tyrant Oath requires a bit more understanding of the board, and of your opponent then a novice would have.  I think if you aspire to running Tyrant Oath, a great stepping stone is an Angel Oath deck.  Running 1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath; and one Razia, Boros Angelfire... instead of Tidespout Tyrant. 

In that deck I would suggest not running the Gush Engine.  Instead go with a more traditional Accumulate Knowledge or Thrist for Knowledge draw package.  This frees up some design space for other cards like Chalice or Wasteland.  Definately run 4 ponders.  You probably want Gaea's Blessing over Krosan Rec too... freeing up some space because you probably don't really need Yawg at this point.

Lastly if you are new to the format, Definately run Duress over Misdirrection. 
Now some people will say: oh but a novice won't know the right card to take!  But I think thats the exact reason why you want to run Duress (especially over Misdirrection).  By playing Duress you can quickly learn about your opponent's deck and plans.  And you will learn through experiance what you "should take."  In the early stages, read all the cards in thier hand and pick the one that sounds the most busted!  If you choose incorrectly, you'll usually quickly find out (the hard way) why it was incorrect.

Will you constantly Top-8? Probably not.  But you will get valuable experiance with a competative and interactive deck.  You'll learn how Orchard and Oath works, you'll have to remember to oath, and remember to attack.  You'll learn about how oath can sometimes lose to shamefull self inflicted spirit beats.   You'll get extremely valuable experiance with Duress, Brainstorm, and Force of Will.  And slowly, you'll see the strenghts and pitfalls of Angel Oath. And eventually you can take the plunge into Tyrant Oath

This thread has gotten away from Angel Oath lists and discussion.  So I'm not sure you want to post the list here.  But you are more than welcome to post your first crack at a list in the Improvement Forum - or feel free to PM it to me.  Either way I'll give it my critique.

[flaffafffl]

Thanks for the advice! I really appreciate it.

I posted a deck list here, if you feel like looking at it. I suspect it's pretty ordinary though.

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=35365.0

[lupin]

show and tell: Your overlooking the synergy between Tidespout and show and tell. Brainstorm has never gotten a piece of aggro on the field after an oath stifle with lethal on the board. In short, I've never killed some one turn one with brainstorm, I have with show and tell.

i think that u play show and tell bacause u use 3 crature in your deck... imho play less inutil cards in your deck is better tha play cards like 3 creature or show and tell who is nice exclusive when u have a creature in hand... but why do you play a card like that when you can play only one creature? with a only creature in the deck(and deep in the deck) you can close the game after the activation of oath without attend to attack with creature... i don't understand why the list that i have looked haven't a storm finisher who can make you close the game in one turn than a deck who use a lot of turn to kill the opponent and using a lot of horrible cards who can't help you to finish the game early...

gush: if u wanna play gush why do you dont play gat? gush in gat is like bread and buttur but why do you wanna play a deck who have less synergy with gush like oath and u don't want to play a deck who have it?


why don't you post a list of your oath? So maybe I change idea

[Aardshark]

Brain Freeze Pros:
- Ensures that you always Oath into a Djinn

Can someone explain this comment? I'm missing something. 

Also, someone was contrasting Rich's controlling build and ICBM's "more tempo based" build.  Can somone point me to ICBM's tyrant oath list?

Edit: I apologize if this info is somewhere else in this thread -- I did search through all 7 pages of this thread and didn't see a list labeled "ICBM" as such, but I'm not too familiar with which TMD members are on which teams.

Thanks for answering noob qs.

- Galen

[hauntedechos]

@ the Oath community:  How do Oath players feel about Jester's Cap?  I know that when I play PonderLong, I often side out the DSC for Jester's in this matchup.  The result is pretty good for me.  Granted I know that there really isn't a Cap presence in the current Vintage scene, I was just wondering what the community felt.

Haunted.

[Arsenal]

Brain Freeze Pros:
- Ensures that you always Oath into a Djinn

Can someone explain this comment? I'm missing something. 

Also, someone was contrasting Rich's controlling build and ICBM's "more tempo based" build.  Can somone point me to ICBM's tyrant oath list? (I'm not too familiar with the team roster's.)

Thanks for answering noob qs.

- Galen

He means that by playing just 2x Tidespout Tyrant + 1x Brain Freeze, you will always flip a Tyrant with an Oath activation.  By playing 2x Tidespout Tyrant + 1x Trisk, you run the risk of Oathing into a Trisk when you want a Tyrant. 

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

@ the Oath community:  How do Oath players feel about Jester's Cap?  I know that when I play PonderLong, I often side out the DSC for Jester's in this matchup.  The result is pretty good for me.  Granted I know that there really isn't a Cap presence in the current Vintage scene, I was just wondering what the community felt.

Haunted.

Honestly, in a combo match up, we never see cap coming off tinker, I'd always assume jar. We sorta expect combo to try and win before we oath (which is a pretty good plan). But witht he slower speed super long list, it seems like a good plan. I'd only expect one win off this though, If we think its going to happen again, or it's something we start to see combo doing, we'll sb in a creature and r/d, or a cunning wish and r/d. The old icbm oath list didn't really card about cap much though, it generally would chalice @0 and 1 and just counter your bounce and factory beat ftw.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

@lupin

This post is probably againt tmd rules. Lupin, I have posted a series of tested list with each major meta shift since the beginning of this thread, gush list included. Not to mention testing results. I've found your posts to not only show your stubborness and lack on knowedage about what's in this thread beyond page 7, but completely unproductive. I appollgize to the mod, delete this post of you feel it necessary, but rock harly and I have tried to keep the quality and productivity of this thread up for some time now.

Edit:not to mention your constant misuse of the elipse.

[The Atog Lord]

Lupin,

I asked you nicely to improve the quality of your posts. You have not. Now I am giving you a verbal warning. Please realize that The Mana Drain holds itself to a higher standard than most other Magic discussion websites. This means that proper grammar, punctuation, and spelling are important. It also means that it is not acceptable to ask a question answered earlier in the thread, or for lists already presented in the thread.

Therefore, the next time you post here or anywhere on TMD, please do the following:
- Ensure that your post is grammatically correct
- Ensure that your post is spelled properly
- Ensure that your post does not ask a question already addressed earlier in the thread.

Rich Shay

[Nehptis]

A suggestion!

This thread and its main contributors are the best source of knowledge for modern Oath builds.  However, perhaps it is time to archive this thread and start a new discussion with a subject of something like “Tyrant Oath in the Current Meta”.  The first 2 posts  should contain both Team “Reflection’s” list and Team “Will It Blend’s” list.  Obviously, each list should be accompanied by some explanatory text to support the card choices and the play style.

I propose this because I think it will allow the discussion to remain more focused and to hopefully grow as the meta game evolves.  This current thread is great.  But, I think it’s run its course.  It will remain in the archive for new oath players to reference.  But, a new Tyrant focused thread is the next logical step in our discussion.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

A suggestion!

This thread and its main contributors are the best source of knowledge for modern Oath builds.  However, perhaps it is time to archive this thread and start a new discussion with a subject of something like “Tyrant Oath in the Current Meta”.  The first 2 posts  should contain both Team “Reflection’s” list and Team “Will It Blend’s” list.  Obviously, each list should be accompanied by some explanatory text to support the card choices and the play style.

I propose this because I think it will allow the discussion to remain more focused and to hopefully grow as the meta game evolves.  This current thread is great.  But, I think it’s run its course.  It will remain in the archive for new oath players to reference.  But, a new Tyrant focused thread is the next logical step in our discussion.

The problem I see with this is that tyrant oath is best best choice in the current meta, the tyrant oath oriented discussion is not the next logical progression, its the point we are currently at. As long as this is the case you'll have two threads discussing the exact same deck. Dedicating a thread completely to tyrant oath just mean that if the metagame shifts towards a non tidespout list being optimal, that thread will just die out and come back and random. It might just be me but I see a lot of redundant threads and thread necromancy happening as a result of this.

[Rock Lee]

The problem I see with this is that tyrant oath is best best choice in the current meta, the tyrant oath oriented discussion is not the next logical progression, its the point we are currently at. As long as this is the case you'll have two threads discussing the exact same deck. Dedicating a thread completely to tyrant oath just mean that if the metagame shifts towards a non tidespout list being optimal, that thread will just die out and come back and random. It might just be me but I see a lot of redundant threads and thread necromancy happening as a result of this.

I agree with H3x here. Until the meta changes, this thread is valid, as it shows a thought path with results. The "current" Tyrant Oath is only a momentary blink on this thought path. I would be disappointed if it remained stagnant in its current form.

[hauntedechos]

Tidespout Oath will encounter measures against it like any other deck.  With the inclusion of a card like Brainfreeze being looked at, how do Oath players feel about VoidLines being brought in with an additional Brainfreeze by the opponent (say GAT) from the board, as well as facing MisDirections already main?

[Nehptis]

Shay proved that Brainfreeze warrants examination and testing.  It's nice when you do the Mox bounce and Freeze.  But, that doesn't always occur.  What I've encountered thus far is that a lot of my Freezes require a full GY followed by a Yawgwill.  Maybe it's just me but I prefer not to rely so heavily on Yawgwill wins.   They are nice when they happen in Oath.  But, YWill is such a powerful and popular spell that opponents are over-prepared for it once they recognize the strategy.

With non-Freeze Oath I love it when opponents waste 4 slots on Leyline.  It doesn't affect my play at all.  As you say GAT could easily support a Freeze to either battle yours or they could even generate enough storm to cast their own Freeze.

MisD's aren't that popular in my meta, Duress is more so.  But, Leylines are in many a SB.

The Shay addition that I wish I could support is Red for REBs. That is huge to battle Blue decks.  But, so many non-basics is suicide in my meta with so many Shops (Wastes).  In some testing last night against Rock on MWS his REBs were huge in keeping control or in shifting control.  My pitch counters couldn't keep up.