Dante
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Netdecking better than you since newsgroup days
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« on: September 09, 2007, 10:36:15 am » |
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http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/14710.htmlEveryone should take a look at that article. Key points are From Magic Floor Rules section 122:
Before each game begins, players must present their sideboards and allow their opponents to count the number of cards in their sideboards (face down), if requested. Players may look at their sideboards during a game only if the sideboard remains distinguishable from other cards A player may not request priority and take no action with it. If they decide they do not wish to do anything, the request is nullified and priority is returned to the player that originally had it.
Certain conventional shortcuts used in Magic are detailed below. If a player wishes to deviate from these, they should be explicit about doing so. Note that some of these are exceptions to the policy above in that they do cause non-explicit priority passes.
Most of this section simply reflects how Magic is generally played in tournament settings. There are a couple of important points to note, however. "A player is not allowed to use a previously undeclared shortcut... in order to create ambiguity in the game." is an important directive for judges facing many classic attempts to trick an opponent into moving the game along. Likewise for "A player may not request priority and take no action with it." which covers the classic "While you think about what creature you want to play, can I play an instant?" "Sure." "I'm not going to, we're in your end step." exchange * Whenever a player adds an object to the stack, they are assumed to be passing priority unless they explicitly announce that they intend to retain it. If they add a group of objects to the stack without explicitly retaining priority and a player wishes to take an action at a point in the middle, the actions should be reversed up to that point.—This is how this is treated already in many areas, but other play communities may currently treat a series of actions announced simultaneously (like Psychatog pumps, for instance) as actually piling up on the stack. If you're in one of those areas, be aware that you may not find the judges on your side anymore. * If a player announces an X spell without specifying the value of X, it is assumed to be for all mana currently available in their pool. * Players are assumed to have paid any cost of 0 unless they announce otherwise.—This two items are pretty new idea, in terms of official sanction, but they clear up a lot of really awkward judging situations, where both players think it's obvious what has occurred, and yet they each have a different idea. I don't doubt that there will be some strong feelings about these, but I think they're generally healthy. * A spell or ability that targets an object on the stack is assumed by default to target the legal target closest to the top of the stack.—This is highly relevant in counterwars, where one player may want to let an opponent's drawback-containing counterspell (e.g. Pact of Negation) resolve before re-countering an item further down the stack. Since players often dump their counters right into the graveyard, it can be impossible to assert what was countered. It's still a good play... you just have to specify that you're making it.
The Golden Rule of Player Communication: Statements made about the game being played must be truthful (to the best of their knowledge). However, statements do not need to be exhaustive—honest answers with careful omissions or “non-answers” designed to misdirect opponents into making suboptimal—but not illegal—plays are acceptable.
There are now three categories of information (roughly: this is the executive summary, still) that have different levels of bluffability (not an actual word) associated with them. These are laid out through the Golden Rule, and the exceptions that are listed after it:
* Factual information that's hidden or is about recent actions in the past: You must answer these questions both honestly and completely. If I ask if you played a particular creature on your last turn, you can't hedge. If you played a Story Circle and didn't write the named color down, you have to tell me what it is. * Most questions about basic game state and game rules: This is the meat-and-potatoes stuff that falls under the Golden Rule. You can avoid the question, or distract your opponent, but you have to be honest to the extent you do answer it. * Questions about derived game state, future interactions, or hidden information: you may say whatever you like. Want to claim that your army of Walls is going to swing for the win? Go ahead. The remaining thirty cards of your library are all counterspells? If you can sell it, more power to you.
Before I get into the borders and where players can go astray, the most important caveat is this: you cannot use misleading statements to make your opponent make an illegal play, and you cannot suggest that an infraction has occurred unless you have actual grounds to believe it has. This came up at a recent Portland PTQ: a player called a judge on their oppenent for failing to pay for a Pact. The problem was, the Pact had been countered, so there was no payment to be made. The Pact player scooped his cards. This is unequivocally illegal now: do so knowing that there was no Pact trigger, and you'll be DQ'ed Everyone should take a look.
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Team Laptop
I hate people. Yes, that includes you. I'm bringing sexy back
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LordHomerCat
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« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2007, 04:13:25 pm » |
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Agreed. The new policy on things like Future/Derived Interactions and what you have to be truthful about is something everyone should be aware of, as you absolutely should not accept anything your opponent says on these subjects now (not that you should have before, but I don't think it was spelled out directly that they could flat out lie to you). Calling a judge with any rules questions is something everyone should get comfortable with, if they aren't already!
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Team Meandeck Team Serious LordHomerCat is just mean, and isnt really justifying his statements very well, is he?
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MadManiac21
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« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2007, 04:25:31 pm » |
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From Magic Floor Rules section 122:
Before each game begins, players must present their sideboards and allow their opponents to count the number of cards in their sideboards (face down), if requested. Players may look at their sideboards during a game only if the sideboard remains distinguishable from other cards This is a huge change IMO. Makes it very easy to stall during a game, bluff different wishes, and properly prepare/utilize your allotted sideboard time. I'm curious why they changed this.
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Team Hadley: ALL YOUR MOX ARE BELONG TO US Red Sox: 2004 AND 2007 World Series Champs! I pray to Tom Brady.
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The Atog Lord
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« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2007, 04:36:53 pm » |
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Leaving your sideboard unsleeved has always had the advantage of letting you make sure that there are exactly sixty cards in your deck at any point. Now it also has the advantage of making your sideboard quite distinct from your in-play cards.
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The Academy: If I'm not dead, I have a Dragonlord Dromoka coming in 4 turns
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andrewpate
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« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2007, 04:41:48 pm » |
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@MadManiac21 It was changed because, before, you accidentally picked up your sb thinking it was your facedown rfg pile and it was an automatic disqualification without prize. That's pretty stiff for such a petty mistake. This makes confusing the sb with in-game cards only a Game Loss, and prevents even needing a penalty at all in many situations.
As for inviting stalling, you can look through your graveyard or faceup rfg cards any time you like, and stalling is not rampant on those grounds. I don't think that judges are going to interpret this rule to mean that you can simply pick up your sideboard at random and rifle through it for a minute or two whenever you like. Worst case, you cast Gifts Ungiven at an Extended PTQ and your opponent takes the 15 seconds you spend going through your deck to ponder sideboard choices for game 2. I wouldn't really call that a travesty.
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LotusHead
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« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2007, 09:28:39 pm » |
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From Magic Floor Rules section 122:
Before each game begins, players must present their sideboards and allow their opponents to count the number of cards in their sideboards (face down), if requested. Players may look at their sideboards during a game only if the sideboard remains distinguishable from other cards This is a huge change IMO. Makes it very easy to stall during a game, bluff different wishes, and properly prepare/utilize your allotted sideboard time. I'm curious why they changed this. I can now look at my sideboard in the middle of a game? Even without a Wish? Just because I want to?
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Yare
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« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2007, 10:40:43 pm » |
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From Magic Floor Rules section 122:
Before each game begins, players must present their sideboards and allow their opponents to count the number of cards in their sideboards (face down), if requested. Players may look at their sideboards during a game only if the sideboard remains distinguishable from other cards This is a huge change IMO. Makes it very easy to stall during a game, bluff different wishes, and properly prepare/utilize your allotted sideboard time. I'm curious why they changed this. I can now look at my sideboard in the middle of a game? Even without a Wish? Just because I want to? That's what the new rules indicate.
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hulk3rules
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« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2007, 03:16:41 am » |
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@MadManiac21 It was changed because, before, you accidentally picked up your sb thinking it was your facedown rfg pile and it was an automatic disqualification without prize.
Why would your RFG pile ever be face down?
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Thegreatgonzo
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« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2007, 04:57:46 am » |
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Quote : "I can now look at my sideboard in the middle of a game? Even without a Wish? Just because I want to? (end quote)
Does it mean I can look at my opponent sideboard during a mindslaver turn?? (Feel free to move this in rules forum if you think it's more appropriate)
The great Gonzo
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He who makes a beast of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man
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diopter
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« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2007, 08:08:08 am » |
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@MadManiac21 It was changed because, before, you accidentally picked up your sb thinking it was your facedown rfg pile and it was an automatic disqualification without prize.
Why would your RFG pile ever be face down? Memory Jar.
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Purple Hat
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« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2007, 09:02:04 am » |
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@MadManiac21 It was changed because, before, you accidentally picked up your sb thinking it was your facedown rfg pile and it was an automatic disqualification without prize.
Why would your RFG pile ever be face down? Memory Jar. yeah, but you're not allowed to look at your jar hand, so I'm not sure why it matters...I guess when comming off jar you might do this? but this seems like a mistake that would be tough to make.
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"it's brainstorm...how can you not play brainstorm? You've cast that card right? and it resolved?" -Pat Chapin
Just moved - Looking for players/groups in North Jersey to sling some cardboard.
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Gort32
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« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2007, 09:34:47 am » |
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@MadManiac21 It was changed because, before, you accidentally picked up your sb thinking it was your facedown rfg pile and it was an automatic disqualification without prize.
Why would your RFG pile ever be face down? Memory Jar. yeah, but you're not allowed to look at your jar hand, so I'm not sure why it matters...I guess when comming off jar you might do this? but this seems like a mistake that would be tough to make. The idea is that you can look at your sideboard in the middle of a game if and only if you can positively identify your sideboard from your Memory Jar, etc cards. In, say, the unlikely scenario that you have wished your sideboard down to 7, then Jar a couple of times, you may have, from your opponent's perspective, three piles of 7 face-down cards, one of which you are claiming to be your sideboard. If your sideboard were not sleeved, for example, you could then identify your sideboard pile and be able to look at it. In short, you are now allowed to look at your sideboard during a match, assuming nothing weird is going on.
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andrewpate
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« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2007, 09:59:13 am » |
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@MadManiac21 It was changed because, before, you accidentally picked up your sb thinking it was your facedown rfg pile and it was an automatic disqualification without prize.
Why would your RFG pile ever be face down? In addition to the Jar case, Three Wishes and a few other cards allow you to have facedown rfg cards which allow peeking. Also, some newer players (like prerelease players) may not know the rule about not looking at one's sideboard during a game. This was one of the few things which could cause someone to accidentally get a DQ without prize, and it doesn't really seem like it deserves that distinction to me (or, apparently, to Wizards.
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Razvan
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« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2007, 11:09:42 am » |
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Quote : "I can now look at my sideboard in the middle of a game? Even without a Wish? Just because I want to? (end quote)
Does it mean I can look at my opponent sideboard during a mindslaver turn?? (Feel free to move this in rules forum if you think it's more appropriate)
The great Gonzo
i am reasonably certain you can now, although i am sure mindslaver will get an even more enormous rule list on crystalkeep. 
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Insult my mother, insult my sister, insult my girlfriend... but never ever use the words "restrict" and "Workshop" in the same sentence...
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andrewpate
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« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2007, 12:10:58 pm » |
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I actually doubt that this is a problem. The Comprehensive Rules are pretty clear about it currently: 507.2. If information about an object would be visible to the player whose turn is controlled, it’s visible to both that player and the controller of the turn. Example: The controller of a player’s turn can see that player’s hand and the identity of any face-down creatures he or she controls. 507.3. The controller of another player’s turn makes all choices and decisions that player is allowed to make or is told to make during that turn by the rules or by any objects. This includes choices and decisions about what to play, and choices and decisions called for by spells and abilities. ... Example: The controller of the turn decides which card the player chooses from outside the game with one of the Judgment™ Wishes. The player can’t choose a card of the wrong type. From these rules, it appears to me that you will definitely be able to use Mindslaver to grab a peek at the opponent's sideboard, as long as you don't take too long.
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Yare
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« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2007, 05:17:03 pm » |
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When do these changes take effect? Immediately?
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Titanium Dragon
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« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2007, 09:57:47 pm » |
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When do these changes take effect? Immediately?
September 20th.
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diopter
I voted for Smmenen!
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« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2007, 11:40:22 pm » |
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I actually doubt that this is a problem. The Comprehensive Rules are pretty clear about it currently: 507.2. If information about an object would be visible to the player whose turn is controlled, its visible to both that player and the controller of the turn. Example: The controller of a players turn can see that players hand and the identity of any face-down creatures he or she controls. 507.3. The controller of another players turn makes all choices and decisions that player is allowed to make or is told to make during that turn by the rules or by any objects. This includes choices and decisions about what to play, and choices and decisions called for by spells and abilities. ... Example: The controller of the turn decides which card the player chooses from outside the game with one of the Judgment Wishes. The player cant choose a card of the wrong type. From these rules, it appears to me that you will definitely be able to use Mindslaver to grab a peek at the opponent's sideboard, as long as you don't take too long. The new rules about sideboard-looking are in the Magic Floor Rules though, not the Comp Rules. The rules you quote are in the Comp Rules. My interpretation is that the sideboard remains hidden information within the Comp Rules, but an exemption is made in the Floor Rules to prevent things like newbies getting DQ'd for accidentally looking at their sideboard.
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Clariax
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« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2007, 03:43:54 am » |
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I actually doubt that this is a problem. The Comprehensive Rules are pretty clear about it currently: 507.2. If information about an object would be visible to the player whose turn is controlled, it’s visible to both that player and the controller of the turn. Example: The controller of a player’s turn can see that player’s hand and the identity of any face-down creatures he or she controls. 507.3. The controller of another player’s turn makes all choices and decisions that player is allowed to make or is told to make during that turn by the rules or by any objects. This includes choices and decisions about what to play, and choices and decisions called for by spells and abilities. ... Example: The controller of the turn decides which card the player chooses from outside the game with one of the Judgment™ Wishes. The player can’t choose a card of the wrong type. From these rules, it appears to me that you will definitely be able to use Mindslaver to grab a peek at the opponent's sideboard, as long as you don't take too long. The new rules about sideboard-looking are in the Magic Floor Rules though, not the Comp Rules. The rules you quote are in the Comp Rules. My interpretation is that the sideboard remains hidden information within the Comp Rules, but an exemption is made in the Floor Rules to prevent things like newbies getting DQ'd for accidentally looking at their sideboard. Please hold off on discussion of this for a bit for the simple reason that there is no definite answer at this time. It's a matter of interpretation and rules themselves can be changed to accomodate how MaGo/R&D want things to work in this, perhaps unforseen, interaction. As for one of the points raised, the sideboard is not hidden information within the Comp Rules. It's also not public information within the Comp Rules. Sideboards are mentioned nowhere in the Comp Rules and do not even exist as far as the Comp Rules are concerned. Sideboards are a tournament mechanic, an area the Comp Rules doesn't deal with. To repeat, in bold: When there is an official answer to whether or not you may look at your opponent's sideboard while controlling their turn, I will provide it in the rules forum (where such a discussion belongs). An answer will be provided before Sept 20, when the new rules go into effect.
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Aaron Cutler DCI L2 Cleveland, Ohio
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Clariax
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« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2007, 06:04:21 am » |
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Official answer is now available in the rules forum. You may read it here.
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Aaron Cutler DCI L2 Cleveland, Ohio
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zimagic
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« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2007, 05:02:21 am » |
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@MadManiac21 It was changed because, before, you accidentally picked up your sb thinking it was your facedown rfg pile and it was an automatic disqualification without prize.
Why would your RFG pile ever be face down? Because of Shared Fate.
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Insert Quote here
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