[Card Discussion] Gaddock Teeg -- The new vintage metagame warper

[SiegeX]

Although a similar thread was closed due to lack of thought provoking content, I feel that this card is significant enough to warrant discussion.  So here again is the card text:

Gaddock Teeg 
Legendary Creature -- Kithkin Advisor | 2/2.
Noncreature spells with converted mana cost 4 or greater can't be played.
Noncreature spells with in their mana costs can't be played.


And to stimulate discussion, here is a (non comprehensive) list of important vintage cards that Teeg will shutdown; it appears to hit at least one card from all the Tier 1 & 2 decks.

Chalice of the Void
Dread Return
Engineered Explosives
Fact or Fiction
Force of Will
Gifts Ungiven
Goblin Charbelcher
Gush
Jester's Cap
Massacre
Memory Jar
Mind's Desire
Mindslaver
Misdirection
Repeal
Smokestack
Stroke of Genius
Submerge
Tendrils of Agony
Unmask
Uba Mask
Yawgmoth's Bargain

[rkmancer]

Haha. .I'm sorry to start a 'lack of content' topic, my bad, won't happened again 
Yes I think a lot to put this adorable creature in one of "hate" deck, and since I'm a TMWA
player, maybe R-G-W aggro control will be the right color to build 

One common problem for hate deck in my thought is too slow in addition to beat opponent,
but adding green in the list (including Tarmogoyf of course) will solve that problem for its
hugeness. I can feel how Teeg and the other white creatures will lock the opponent as long
as Goyf beat him.

I need to add one good reason why  and  cc can't be played is so good, just because
there's two mass destroyers that 'hate' deck dislike most and their name are Engineered  Explosive
and Massacre, thank you very much. .

[Petro_Nor]

I think that if beeing played, this card will be in UWg deck, I'm not sure taht tarmogoyf will have place but 4 of this creature with 4 meddling mage and 3 aven mincensor will have a good creature hate for vintage, maybe 3 tarmogoyfs can help putting a bettertime-lock, we can use to jotun and katakis. The worst is that fows will be include but after gaddock sumoning will not be used. And not having black lacks duress that is another disruptiong spell very useful in the new meta. (and bobs obviusly for card advantage).

[Hell of a Hat]

Gotta find my playset of Noble Panthers...

Seriously though, despite being in the 2 worst vintage colors I think this guy might find a viable slot somewhere, especially if Green and White keep getting the toys along the same power level they have been.

[Grand Inquisitor]

I like the design of this card.  It seems to womp everything in the upper tier except for Flash.  Provided that caveat can be taken care of through other means, this could provide a nice shift in the metagame away from brainstorm/merchant scroll.engine.

A largely GW aggro control deck could do some serious damage.  Although I agree with the above, that a ugw list using Daze and FoW to get him on the table is also likely.

[Harlequin]

GWx hate will have a problem not loosing the game before turn 3.  It seems like a trinity of This Dude, Aven Mindsensor, Samurai of the Pale Curtain ... while using Tarmo as the muscleman,  will put signifigant pressure on tier 1 decks.  The problem is going to be not loosing the game in those first 3 turns.  There's root maze, and possibly Stp - but outside of that, It's not easy to come up with enough support for the early game.  On the flip-side, you really don't have any way to hold pressure on in the late game.  Well, This could be remedy by running Keen Senses.  So while your turns 3,4,5, are really really strong - your turns 1 and 2, then anything past turn 7 are fairly poor in comparison to other decks.

All this means the deck would almost certainly need to include Blue as well.  Which is not nessisarily a bad thing... its just going to be a really tight deck.  And at the end of the day you're not going to have room for: The guy, Mindsensor, Samuria of the PC, Kataki, Meddling Mage, Terragon Preditor, Tarmogoyf... and a distruption package, and a draw package, and a 3 color manabase.

[TimDeluxeIt]

how would this car work with sphere of resistance/glowrider? Would 3cc cards then not be able to be played?

[Harlequin]

Casting Cost refers to the card printed casting cost.  Sphere (trini or resistance), Glowrider, and Alternate casting costs do not modify this.  So FoW always has a Converted Mana Cost of 5 reguardless of how much mana was tapped to play it. 

[netherspirit]

I see this working really well in a gWB deck using Duress, Cabal Therapy, tutors, Necropotence (would the BBB cost be too prohibitive though?) and Night's Whisper.

Strip Mine and Wastelands to hit their mana, early discard, Null Rod to stop their moxen, SB Root Maze for Combo decks, Seal of Primordium for artifact hate, Bob for draw, Aven Mindcensor because it's so awesome and Gaddock Teeg to screw up some of their cards.

Although I do like the idea of using Meddling Mage; could this become a 5C deck?

[andrewpate]

I don't see 5-color Fish working well with that many Wasteland effects, and Root Maze really only buys a turn against Flash.  I would really like a way to avoid auto-loss to every hand with two mana, Flash, Protean Hulk, and Pact of Negation all in it.  For that reason, I really don't want to play aggro that doesn't have Force of Will (or, I suppose, Pyrokinesis) in it.  If Flash gets restricted, netherspirit, then I might give the black base another look.

I see the GW cost as a huge restriction on this guy.  GWU seems like the best bet currently, or more likely WUg.  Unfortunately, black is just so much more attractive in a 3-color Fish deck right now than green.  I'm skeptical, for that reason, as to whether this guy will find a good home.

[BruiZar]

Cards i've been thinking about include

Good stuff:
Gaddock Teeg
Meddling Mage
Erayo, Soratami Ascendant
Null Rod
Jotun Grunt
Orim's Chant
Aven Mindcensor
Kataki, War's Wage

Janky stuff:
True Believer
Trygon Predator
Xantid Swarm
Azorius Guildmage
Savannah Lions
Quirion Dryad
Tarmogoyf
Stormscape Apprentice
Ninja of the Deep Hours
Sunscape Familiar
Glittering Wish?
Karakas

The reason why Quirion Dryad and Tarmogoyf are listed in janky stuff is because I don't believe they help lock out the opponent. Tarmogoyf utilizes cards in graveyards when you don't want your opponent to have a graveyard to abuse. That's why I believe Jotun Grunt is much better along side Meddling Mage and GaddockTeeg.

I especially like Erayo and think that is the proper direction for an aggro based prison deck

Karakas is useful to protect yourself from removal if you're playing Gaddock, Erayo and Kataki and might come in handy against oath too.

[Guli]

Yes i like the effect of this bear. I am always enthusiastic about the new utility critters in the new sets. This one really seems handy and could find a place but it is multicolor and its green and white. I don't see a problem with the white. White has A LOT to offer when it comes to aggro/control.
Green is not a bad splash either. But when 1 card asks WHITE and GREEN in 1 turn there could be a problem.
I am thinking grunt/bazaar/crop rotation/Strip M/Lifefromloam/keen sense/swords to plow/kataki...

kataki and gaddock would be nice partners vs stax btw. And karakas seems really strong aswell to have some counterplay vs oath and give some protection to ur legends.

I don't see an easy way out with gaddock, its going to be mainly a white deck with green splash. Is he strong enough to give WG a chance in vintage? I doubt it. And i am not that optimistic to add another color.

[Outlaw]

so has nobody thought to include this in perhaps stax or something simliar (staxless stax)?  Ray's list runs 0 smokestacks and only 2 chalices currently and he always drops a hurt on everyone he plays.  It's effects seem at least to myself to be fairly powerful if i'm reading the card correctly (extremely burnt out from schoolwork) in a deck that uses immensely powerful effects in a "go-for-broke" kind of style.  Just throwin in the 2 cents.

[Implacable]

It is not only a multicolor card, it is a multicolor card that is from the worst colors in Vintage.  Why would anyone play this card when there are much more powerful and castable two-drops like 'Goyf and Confidant?

[Outlaw]

It is not only a multicolor card, it is a multicolor card that is from the worst colors in Vintage.  Why would anyone play this card when there are much more powerful and castable two-drops like 'Goyf and Confidant?

This is the main point that I neglected to reach upon when suggesting this card for stax.  In general, stax has the easiest ability to cast mutlicolored cards out of any deck due to the 5 color manabase (this is disregarding spheres of resistance)

[KnowmaD]

From first glance Gaddock Teeg looks great.  Sure he has restrictions, as pointed out: mana cost and legendary status.  Both being workable.  First the mana cost of 2 fits on the first turn, yeah the colors are awkward, but doable.  And as for a legend, it could be used for removal, however not likely. 

I have to admit that this guy hoses a great many of cards.  Empty the Warrens, Juggernaut (i.e. win conditions.) Not to mention engines.

I see Teeg as being like Platinum Angel; even though both are easy to deal with, you will need to have an answer for many decks.  (No problem.)

Or... build with him.  UGW seems to be an obvious start.  Quite possibly Meddling Mage's new best friend.  Between the two of them they can lock out quite a few components... and if I slip Duress in the mix somehow...

I don't see Force of Will being too much of a problem with an active Teeg.  Currently WeBeMaD Labs is working on a pet Rainbow Fish that has more outlets for dead cards other than Brainstorm. 

Another idea to ponder (and indeed I see it has been) is if Teeg could be used as a hard lock piece for prison players.  Stackless is definately a route to go. 

I'm looking forward to the developments, and only time will tell if Gaddock Teeg is a strong beat or another prerelease hopeful.

[brianpk80]

Nice post, KnowmaD.  I'd point out that Teeg can't stop Juggernaut itself since it's prohibition only applies to non-creature spells.

An important thing to remember is that this card can't be gauged solely for its effect on the current meta, but rather may have very longlasting implications on Vintage well into the future (much like Extirpate).  It hoses a lot of win conditions from past Vintage days that may one day come back to haunt us (as GAT has) like Stroke of Genius, Illusions of Grandeur, Future Sight (though the Future Magus gets around this), Mind Twist, Deep Analysis, Sneak Attack, and the like.  Keep in mind that just a few short months ago, v. the leading Gifts/Long archetypes this thing essentially nullifies a huge segment of those decks.  A Meddling Mage on FoW, Misdirection, Gifts Ungiven, Tendrils of Agony, Bargain, Mind's Desire, Empty the Warrens, Repeal, and Memory Jar combined is pretty hefty.  Also, with the huge comeback of creatures this year, it's probably only a matter of time before reactive players start considering The Abyss and Moat, although again the Moat Magus circumvents the Teeg restriction. 

I like the card a lot.   

-BPK

[the boogie man]

   What about a three colored birdsh*t deck? The beats would come from mongoose, teeg, tarmogoyf, meddling m, werebear, grunt, or aven mindcensor. The list could run stuff like stifle, spell snare (counters some bounce, fire/ice, and, importantly, other threats, as well as thee many 2-mana bombs that are out there), force, null rod, and daze, along with force, and maybe root maze, for disruption. mongoose doubles as an early blocker in some matches, especially goblins, and also avoids a lot of the creature hate that is going around.
   gush could be run, wastelands, and maybe even ponder, all of which totally fill out tarmogoyf. the mana denial, along with the semi-beef, could prove to be a potent combo.

[madmanmike25]

Very interesting card indeed.  My first thought is to put him in an Aether Vial build and not add in Kataki.  Not to hate on Mr. mini-energyflux, but he isn't that effective against:

Ichorid
GAT
Flash
Goblins
Fish
Oath
Shop/Stax/MUD decks....oh wait, he is effective here.  Kudos.

Vials might help compensate for having a casting cost of the 2 least effective colors in Vintage.  That of course is if he is going into a 3 color build.  In all honesty using him in conjuction with Force of Will seems horrible at best.

If someone were to put him in a strictly G/W deck, you wouldn't need Vials and I would suggest making a pseudo threshold and/or madness type deck with Bazaars and Riftstone Portals.  That would let you play with the new and improved Werebear(aka Tarmogoyf) and spot removal like STP. 

The card pool for a G/W deck would look something like:
Chalice of the Void
Gaddock
Aven
Jotun
STP
Orim's Chant
Ex-Angels(maybe, with so many creatures the life swing and flying might be worthwhile)
Kataki(if your meta demands it in the maindeck)
True Believer
Samurai
Weathered Wayfarer(possibly)
Glowrider
Mongoose
Tarmogoyf
Mongrel
Roar of the Wurm(perhaps)
Root Maze
Loam
Sylvan Scrying(its a green DT for Stripmine, and yet it does not scry....)
Fastbond
Crop Rotation
Rifstone Portal
Bazaar--Synergy with so many cards, not to mention it can always just filter away crap.
Wastelands
Stripmine
Etc.

I would be most interested to see a deck like that (hint, hint).  If anyone wants to post a preliminary list I'll offer what help I can.

p.s.  It appears Brian has returned from the great beyond, hello.

[Zherbus]

I don't think it'll warp the metagame, as the topic suggests. I think a UGw Fish deck might be able to make use of this though. Just Add Tarmogoyf and Meddling Mages and headaches should ensue.

[Kataki_Rulez]

I don't think it'll warp the metagame, as the topic suggests. I think a UGw Fish deck might be able to make use of this though. Just Add Tarmogoyf and Meddling Mages and headaches should ensue.

U/W/g will, in my opinion, take a big boost, though, because he does lock some threats down. I would like to test him in R/W/g TMWA and B/G/w the Rock (it would be funny to see!)

[brianpk80]

Speaking of UWG Fish... one of my favorite UWG legends... Angus Mackenzie. 




Card Type: Creature - Legend
Card Text: , : Prevent all combat damage that would be dealt this turn.
2/2

Given the pronounced role the combat stage has taken in Vintage's most lethal kills these days, a recurrent Fog would be a pretty strong soft lock.  Granted, the casting cost is a bit prohibitive and wouldn't see active play reliably until the 3rd or 4th turn but its renewable effect is quite the "catch all" for combat stage based victories (essentially every non-Stax non-Tendrils major competitor out there).   WGU has a lot of strong creatures that can lock up a game that's progressed to the 3rd or 4th turn, and Gaddock Teeg appears to be among the most efficient IMO.  Trygon Predator fills in another major role.  I think I'd shy away from pure aggro creatures (Mongoose, Werebear, Mongrel) in a Fish build with the possible exception of Goyf.  This type of Fish build is worth looking into at the very least or, as some have mentioned, a 5C Rainbow build. The main challenge would be stalling and staying alive for the first few turns, a challenging task but one that can be facilitated with some combination of Chants, Daze, Extirpate, Leylines, Stifle, Tormod's Crypt, or even dilatory Spore Frog/Kami of Ancient Hopes. 

Thanks for the hi, Mike.  I'm still mad busy but am glad to see the new set continues to creep upwards in power.   

-BPK

[BruiZar]

I can only hope that a card like Angus Mackenzie will ever be viable in vintage magic.

[diopter]

I can only hope that a card like Angus Mackenzie will ever be viable in vintage magic.

Cards like Angus Mackenzie have no place in Vintage.

Gaddock Teeg is way overrated. The effect is nice, sure, but not the end-all-be-all, and the colors will rape you.

Imagine you are playing UGW Fish against GAT.
You play Teeg on turn two.
GAT laughs at you as he plays Dryad and uses Scroll into Ancestral and Brainstorms into Duresses and fetchlands with impunity to make his 1G fatty bigger than anything on your side of the table. Teeg prevents you from Forcing anything, and your deck is otherwise underpowered because you couldn't stretch your manabase to four colors without risking not having G/W on turn 2 consistently, so you die without Dark Confidant or Duresses on your own. I haven't even touched upon what happens when he topdecks or tutors into Yawgmoth's Will.
Then he busts your ass in game 2 with Smother or Fire/Ice or Fire Imp.

Imagine you are playing UGW Fish against Stax.
You play Teeg on turn two.
Stax laughs at you as he wastes the Tropical Island or Tundra that you had to fetch out, then plays his Crucible and wastes your other land(s), then wins with Mishra's Factory or gigantic artifact creatures.

Imagine you are playing UGW fish against Flash.
LOL.

Imagine you are playing UGW fish against anything.
You fail to get access to both Tropical Island and Tundra on turn 2.

If Teeg were U/W it would be an entirely different story. You could play it in UWB fish and also have access to Wastelands if you were greedy enough. It would be comparable to Meddling Mage then - stronger in some respects and weaker in other respects. As a G/W man they're not even comparable.

[zeus-online]

I think you're underestimating it...You certainly do have a point, but you're making it sound like it's a draw-back.

I think it's a fair addition to Fish for sure, but he's no meddling mage.

/Zeus

[policehq]

When you are playing Gaddock Teeg/blue, there probably will be a lot of situations that are comparable to playing a critter, a Standstill, then your opponent responds with Wipe Away on your threat. They will be able to resolve better win conditions without your ability to Force of Will.

Where is Polynomial P? This card seems great in Dawn of the Dead.

-hq

[diopter]

I think you're underestimating it...You certainly do have a point, but you're making it sound like it's a draw-back.

I think it's a fair addition to Fish for sure, but he's no meddling mage.

/Zeus

The GW mana cost is a HUGE drawback.

[Moxlotus]

I think you're underestimating it...You certainly do have a point, but you're making it sound like it's a draw-back.

I think it's a fair addition to Fish for sure, but he's no meddling mage.

/Zeus

The GW mana cost is a HUGE drawback.

It's a drawback, but its not unmanageable.  Throw in 1 trop in a deck with X fetchlands, mox emerald, black lotus, and 4 aether vials.

[shadowofrpgfreak]

I still like the idea of tossing this little guy into a revamped Bird Shit. You don't need to drop Teeg on turn 2, just sometime before the cards he stops hit the table. Of course, that's usually between turns 1 and 3... anyway, the point is, drop him when you've got like 5 mana on the board (because, unless I'm totally wrong about what Fish does, which is possible, you should be able to disrupt and stall for that long while still keeping cards stocked), then drop Teeg to shut off spells they may have been saving to smash you, or may be hoping to top-deck for a win, while keeping mana open for that Rune Snag or Mana Leak or Drain or whatever the hell non-Force counter magic you run... not to mention that halting Force can really swing future counter wars in your favor, IF you're built for it.

Overall, for this guy to really do anything in Vintage, he's gonna need to be put into a very carefully built, very annoying fish variation designed to work with his colors. Done right, he'll be a strong piece in a frustrating deck... done wrong, he'll be a 2/2 that sits in your hand half the time and shuts off your own Forces when he lands.

That's just my 2colorless, of course. I'm not really a Fish player... the few times I've played a variation were Bird Shit and Sullivan Solution, the former of which was fun to play and seemed to run well even though I lacked power for it (non-proxy tournaments), the latter of which isn't relevant to Teeg. Considering my little experience, please feel free to completely ignore my opinion if you believe I'm wrong =P

[zeus-online]

UWG Fish dosn't sound all that bad to me, with tarmogoyf (Being a better beater then joten grunt), this guy who shuts off Gush, Tendrils, Bargain, Mind's desire etc. etc...although he probably does suck against flash.

Turning off your own force of wills is a problem though.

/Zeus