[Card Discussion] Thoughtseize

[thickasabrick]

Thoughtseize
B
Sorcery
Target player reveals his or her hand. Choose a nonland card from it. That player discards that card.
You lose 2 life.

Will this card have as big of an impact on Vintage as I think it will?  Decks can now run 8 Duress.  Also this card is only restricted to grabbing non-lands.  Thoughts?

[Guli]

Life loss is irrelevant

This is better than duress even though i think a mix of 4-3 (total 7) would be suited.

[Nydaeli]

I'm shocked that they would print this.  It's so overpowered compared to existing discard (Duress), without adding anything new or creative design-wise.  I can see how losing 2 life might be a reasonable penalty in other formats, but it's completely worthwhile when you're taking any restricted card in Vintage, or even Tarmogoyf in Legacy.  This is going to see a lot of play in Eternal.

[ErkBek]

Being Misdirectable is huge though. Suddenly your Duress equates to a 2 for 2.

I agree with Nydaeli, design wise this card is really boring.

[rkmancer]

Boring but needed I think, same as Jailer comes out when Ichorid decks dominate the meta, this card appear when GusH based deck is everywhere. Many powerful discard spells (as 8 duress plus cabal's therapy maybe will be the answer).

[Spacebalzz]

Now, countering Turn 1 Dark Ritual is imperative...

Running this card with Duress, Cabal Therapy, Hymn and Extirpate is RIDICULOUS.

Almost guaranteed to rip two cards from your opening hand and possible many more.

That is all.

[Kataki_Rulez]

Wow, R and D gives Vintage a break! This card is great in every format, and the single disadvantage to running it is too minor. I mean, misdirection is only one card. This card is duress... on CRACK. And speed. and crystal meth. And.... *ends list of exaggeration before moderators disembowel*.

[doylehancock]

Now, countering Turn 1 Dark Ritual is imperative...

Running this card with Duress, Cabal Therapy, Hymn and Extirpate is RIDICULOUS.

Almost guaranteed to rip two cards from your opening hand and possible many more.

That is all.

exactly waht I was thinking.  Sui could make a run

4xsinkhole
4xduress
4xhymn
4xThoughtseize
4xextirpate
3-4x cabal therapy

[Titanium Dragon]

This card is ridiculously broken. The 2 life isn't a real drawback in any format, especially given that in the long term, that card you grapped was almost certain to be more trouble to you than 2 life. I, too, am shocked it is real - it is just hideously overpowered. I'm pretty sure every black deck that runs mana will run 4 copies of this card without thinking twice. I thought it was fake (or 1B) when it first went up, but obviously I was wrong.

Ew. I really want this card to be fake or different; I really don't want Duress to be obsolete.

[Guli]

Getting this baby 4 times in a deck means making space. Don't be to hasty with your comments

I strongly disagree with this list:

4xsinkhole
4xduress
4xhymn
4xThoughtseize
4xextirpate
3-4x cabal therapy

That is overkill. You have to make choices.

[fury]

Ideed. This ruins the opponent's hand/lands. But this doesn't make you to win !

[zeus-online]

Hmm, while it's obviously a great card i still think i'd play duress over it...Here's why:

If you're playing against a deck where you would want to remove a creature the 2 life actually matters on some level.

Also, decks such as GAT certainly does NOT need more life loss.

/Zeus

[TopSecret]

Printed as a rare, this card is going to be mad expensive,
since as has been stated, it's ridonkulous in every format.

Also, it has synergy with Tarmogoyf... hrrrmm.

I'm really hoping that this card is uncommon, or fake.
I really dislike it when rares are printed that will obviously be format staples,
but their only ability is being stupid good.
Seriously, this card would not bust draft as an uncommon.
It's like printing a new card that's called "Thoughtstop" in the next set
and having it read the same as Counterspell.

I love that black is getting a new Duress, but printing it as a rare really bugs me.

[doylehancock]

Printed as a rare, this card is going to be mad expensive,
since as has been stated, it's ridonkulous in every format.

Also, it has synergy with Tarmogoyf... hrrrmm.

I'm really hoping that this card is uncommon, or fake.
I really dislike it when rares are printed that will obviously be format staples,
but their only ability is being stupid good.
Seriously, this card would not bust draft as an uncommon.
It's like printing a new card that's called "Thoughtstop" in the next set
and having it read the same as Counterspell.

I love that black is getting a new Duress, but printing it as a rare really bugs me.

I totally agree, this is an uncommon.

I am not willing to pay 60 bucks for 4 duress.  No freckin way

[Tuba1060]

I totally agree.  This is one of those cases that's purely price gouging by wizards.  This isn't strong enough, compared to cards in the past, to be at rare, and isn't draft warping enough at uncommon to justify it's printing there.  I'm not usually one to complain about good cards being at rare, but I hate it when wizards prints basic staples at rare, for no other reason than "people will play this a lot, so lets make it rare."  I just don't get what makes this card a rare-worthy card, other than the fact that a lot of people will want it...

Oh, and $60 if you're lucky.  This will be $20 a pop easy - on the plus side, the kids and timmys who open them at the PR will trade them cheaply, since they have nothing that seems rareworthy about them.   "Well, I suppose I can trade you a Dread for two of those junky discard cards.  I mean, seriously, what kind of rare is that?"

[Jo84]

This card is surely a contender for duress, but it´s hard to say if it´s really better.

Duress can´t be misdirected and you don´t lose any life.
Thoughtseize is more vulnerabe, you lose life, but you always will have the chance to discard the nonland card you want.

Against Flash Thoughtseize is much better, as you´ve got the option to discard a combo piece instead of an engine card (discard Hulk instead of Merchant Scroll reduces Flash' chances by a lot).

But against other decks there is either no real difference between Duress and Thoughtseize (except the misdirectability and the life loss).
The only other two targets Thoughtseize can and should additionally handle are Quirion Dryad and Meddling Mage.
The Mage may be the more important reason to run Thoughtseize over Duress in combo decks.
About the Dryad I am not quite sure, but I would tend to play Duress to avoid Misdirections and because it can eat the cards that feed the Dryad, i.e. Ancestral. Also you spare 2 life points, that may decide between victory and defeat.
Thirdly against GAT there are only 5 superior targets, compared to Duress. So I don´t think the risk of dieing due to having 2 life too less is worth it. (You may think it´s the same against Flash, but if they combo out, you lose anyways no matter how high or low your life total is).

All in all, I think Thoughtseize is all about the same to Duress, what Mana Drain is to Counterspell.

[diopter]

This card is surely a contender for duress, but it´s hard to say if it´s really better.

Duress can´t be misdirected and you don´t lose any life.
Thoughtseize is more vulnerabe, you lose life, but you always will have the chance to discard the nonland card you want.

Against Flash Thoughtseize is much better, as you´ve got the option to discard a combo piece instead of an engine card (discard Hulk instead of Merchant Scroll reduces Flash' chances by a lot).

But against other decks there is either no real difference between Duress and Thoughtseize (except the misdirectability and the life loss).
The only other two targets Thoughtseize can and should additionally handle are Quirion Dryad and Meddling Mage.
The Mage may be the more important reason to run Thoughtseize over Duress in combo decks.
About the Dryad I am not quite sure, but I would tend to play Duress to avoid Misdirections and because it can eat the cards that feed the Dryad, i.e. Ancestral. Also you spare 2 life points, that may decide between victory and defeat.
Thirdly against GAT there are only 5 superior targets, compared to Duress. So I don´t think the risk of dieing due to having 2 life too less is worth it. (You may think it´s the same against Flash, but if they combo out, you lose anyways no matter how high or low your life total is).

All in all, I think Thoughtseize is all about the same to Duress, what Mana Drain is to Counterspell.

Mana Drain is about 100,000,000% better than Counterspell.
Thoughtseize is probably as good as Duress, if not better.

[the boogie man]

   Besides being good against the two top decks in the format, I really think that this card is much better against stacks than duress is.

   I really think that combo can really use this card, perhaps a ritual heavy build with 8 duress is enough to bring (ritual) combo back without having to run green or islands, putting less stress on the mana base while adopting a more aggressive card pool, due to the number of colors the base can hold.

[Jo84]

Mana Drain is about 100,000,000% better than Counterspell.
Thoughtseize is probably as good as Duress, if not better.

Depends on the deck you play. Same counts for Thoughtseize and Duress.
In my opinion, Duress will be the better option for GAT, especially when playing Street Wraith.
But we will see in a few months.

[Sarah Angel]

But against other decks there is either no real difference between Duress and Thoughtseize (except the misdirectability and the life loss).
The only other two targets Thoughtseize can and should additionally handle are Quirion Dryad and Meddling Mage.

Three huge oversights to that comment:

Auriok Salvagers / Trinket Mage
Goblin Welder
Magus of the Moon

[zeus-online]

Mana Drain is about 100,000,000% better than Counterspell.
Thoughtseize is probably as good as Duress, if not better.

Depends on the deck you play. Same counts for Thoughtseize and Duress.
In my opinion, Duress will be the better option for GAT, especially when playing Street Wraith.
But we will see in a few months.

No, mana drain is always, always, always better then counterspell... Even if you have next to no sinks for it.

/Zeus

[Jo84]

Three huge oversights to that comment:

Auriok Salvagers / Trinket Mage
Goblin Welder
Magus of the Moon

Yes, they are possible targets to discards, BUT Bomberman and Slaver are either rare nowadays.

Also don´t forget, that in about 90%+ when you play Thoughtseize/Duress you would choose a noncreature anyways.
Mana drain is of course better than Counterspell, but it doesn´t break you your neck if you don´t have them in your deck (I have none and if I play GAT I have no problems at all, playing Counterspells), except Mana Drain decks like Bomberman, Slaver, etc. of course.