[Deck] GWB Hate-Aggro (post Lorwyn)

[Aekhold]

First of all hi all. I'm member of  team "Broken Rythm" from Germany and would like to give my latest "creation" which is based on several cards from Lorwyn, free for discussion.
The cards in question are:

Thoughtseize     
Sorcery (R)   
Target player reveals his or her hand. Choose a nonland card from it. That player discards that card.
You lose 2 life.

Thorn of Amethyst    
Artifact (R)   
Noncreature spells cost    more to play.

Gaddock Teeg   
Legendary Creature - Kithkin Advisor    (R)
Noncreature spells with converted mana cost 4 or greater can't be played.
Noncreature spells with  in their mana costs can't be played.
2/2

Now to the list:

Team "Broken Rythm" - Censoring Spheres

// Lands
    3  Bayou
    3  Scrubland
    2  Savannah
    4  Windswept Heath
    2  Bloodstained Mire

// Creatures
    3  Tarmogoyf
    4  Glowrider
    4  Dark Confidant
    4  Gaddock Teeg
    4  Aven Mindcensor

// Spells
    1  Mana Crypt
    1  Black Lotus
    4  Thoughtseize
    4  Sphere of Resistance
    4  Thorn of Amethyst
    4  Duress
    1  Mox Sapphire
    4  AEther Vial
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Ruby

// Sideboard
SB: 1  Tarmogoyf
SB: 4  Kataki, War's Wage
SB: 4  Leyline of the Void
SB: 2  Yixlid Jailer
SB: 2  Serenity
SB: 2  Chains of Mephistopheles

Basically the Deck plays similar to the old WR TMWA builds featuring "9spheres" and disruptive creatures like Aven Mindcensor and Magus of the Moon: You try to slow your opponent down by laying down spheres while trying to get down your creatures and smash face.
The main difference between this deck and similar TMWA builds is that you get to play many cards that achieve similar goals ( for example the 12 spheres or the 8 duress) which makes it very consistent because you will most likely have either a duress or a mox and a sphere in your opening 7 which should give you game even against the faster combo-decks (like hulk-flash).
Once you hit 3 Mana it gets even spicier: You will get to play Aven Mindcensor (which is huge against Flash and GAT) and Glowriders (which can be the nail in the coffin especially if you played 1 or more spheres before, because such a play basically disables the gush-drawengine). In addition to that you are not very vulnerable to counters/disruption because of the high redundancy and of course your Vials.
The Deck also features a decent clock given that you play 20 creatures (all beating for 2+) which is quite a lot.

Match ups:

Based on our limited testing I'm quite confident that this deck simply annihilates storm combo, not only because of the Spheres, but also because once Gaddock Teeg resolves all their win conditions are shut down (except for Tinker->Collossus perhaps) and they will have to search for an answer which is not all that easy against a lot of spheres, Mindcensor and multiple duresses.

Against Flash you basically need mainphases. Seriously, if you don't get to play your cards it's over and that's why we have Leyline in the sb and 8 duress main. When you get 1 or more mainphases you should be able to slow them down by playing spheres and duresses until you resolve a Mindcensor (which spells doom to Flash) or enough other disruption critters to be able to beat down for the win.

The GAT match seems to depend on whether you are able to resolve enough spheres (which are huge in this matchup) or Gaddock Teeg (who has a devastation effect on their  draw-engine and their counters as well). If you are you are in a good shape and likely to win the match. When things go wrong you will still have lots of creatures to throw in front of theirs to give you more time.

Staxx is a bit tricky and certainly not one of the best Matchups, because huge Artifact creatures just kick your ass (depending on the Staxx build and draw of course). It's not an auto-loss but a good reason to have Kataki and Serenity in your sideboard.

Ichorid is.... well Ichorid. Preboard they beat you, postboard you usually have enough hate and spheres which make it difficult for them to resolve answers such as Emerald Charm and Reverant Silence. The combo-kill is disabled by the spheres as well.

Feedback and critics would be appreciated as well as sb suggestions.

[TopSecret]

I've played a deck similar to this, except with no green.
It looks like the green Lorwyn cards make it a lot stronger.

How is the GAT matchup?
It looks like it'd be good in the abstract,
but you have no maindeck creature kill.
Have you ever found a problem with them just dropping a Dryad, or God forbid Tog,
and just riding it all the way?

It seems like Swords would be especially good,
considering that Teeg shuts off Misdirection and Force backup.
Perhaps at least cutting the 2x Serenity and the 2x Jailers in the side for 4x Swords or Snuff Out?
Snuff Out is especially good against Flash, although, it doesn't kill Tog or Colossus.
Also, I think you'll have trouble against Bomberman until to add some maindeck creature kill.

Have you considered adding Dark Rituals?
Yes, they'd be dead after the first two turns,
but you have very redundant drops to abuse.

Ritual can cast one of your multiple 'Duresses' turn one,
and immediately follow it with one of your multiple 'Spheres', or Bob.
That seems really strong.

I'd suggest playing Rituals over Vials, because Vial helps with the late game, which your deck already excels at.
Ritual helps you to overcome those tight early turns.

I know it's a three color deck,
but I think you should try to fit some Wastelands in, especially since you play so much mana denial.

Have you considered Mesmeric Fiends?

What do you sideboard in Chains against?

Thanks for posting this;
it's pretty much what my thoughts were on post-Lorwyn BWG, minus some Spheres, and plus some creature kill.

Good luck!

[DerDaniel]

Dark Ritual is no good idea when playing such a high ammount of sphereeffects. Why didnt you include Trinisphere for having the highest possible count?
To shut down GAT i'd prefer R-based Hate (especially moon effects) instead of your green cards which just seem to speed up your beatdown plan. A Magus of the Moon dirupts the GAT Player's gameplay far more than a Gaddok ever will. REBs are another reason to include red when facing your opponents without any FoWs.

[rkmancer]

As suggested above, both snuff out and StP is needed in this deck in my opinion.  This deck need some instant effect when something's go wrong like your lock pieces be bounced or destroyed.  Thoughtseize is powerful since it can be creature removal but you need something to handle once that creatures already in play.
Have you give a try for Sylvan Safekeeper?? He looks nice in based creature deck as protector of the others.

[TopSecret]

Actually, I just realized that Gaddok Teeg shuts off Snuff Out.
Adding Swords is still probably a good idea, though.

[wiley]

It looks to me that the only problems for this deck (provided it can run relatively smooth) are creatures, so I was surprised when I didn't see any creature kill.  StP and the various edicts seem like an absolute must.  Perhaps your game plan was to prevent them from ever casting a creature, but the matches won't always go so well, and it seems prudent to plan for such an event.

Also I understand the aether vials in that it allows you to get around the sphere effects but it I don't think it is necessary to run a full compliment, 2-3 should suffice.

I am not sure on the call for serenity in the sideboard though.  In the matches it would be played are you going to side out your spheres?  If so then it seems like a good choice, but if not it seems like it would undermine your entire decks strategy.

Why keep the fourth tarmogoyf in the side?  I would think he would be an excellent clock against any deck.

And I would also like to know which match-ups the chains are for.

Hope I've helped some, and it seems like a fairly solid prison deck.

[Mith]

1. I'm not sure why you'd want to play Tarmogofy over Jotun Grunt. Grunt empties graveyards, and beats for four right away. Goyf has no utility whatsoever.

2. Wastelands and a Strip can work nicely in this deck

3. StPs are choice considering how rampant creatures are currently.

4. Teeg is a legend...I think you're fine running three of him even though he's so tasty.

5. Playing black gives you Tutors and Leyline, white gives you Balance, green gives you Rootmaze...all of these warrant consideration.

I'd prefer a more aggressive approach to this deck. I'd certainly consider the 8 duress/sphere version with Glowrider...but I'm not sure it's quite fast enough to keep up.

[Guli]

You know what i don't really find convincing?

12 Sphere effects are listed to slow down/soft lock opponent. So you are making it hard for the opponent to cast spells. Why play with Gaddock TeeG then? You have 8 duress to get there Force if u think that is a problem.

The best idea/card that i have heard until now came from

In legacy my deck of choice is Counterbalance Control.  Currently I run it UW, but I am seriously considering adding Green for this guy. 

I just thought I would bring Counterbalance to the vintage discussion.  The main problem with counterbalance is that anything above 4cc is basically not effected.  Teeg gives a very real answer to that problem (where in my build I use MM for that exact purpose).  With Teeg cutting off access to the upper end of spells, and Top/CB crippling anything in the 0, 1 and 2 range.  The real threats are confined to the 3 range (wich is usually stopped 30% of the time by top/cb depending on the build's curve).  The mana base is not really a great concern, because even in my WU build I run 2-3 Sacred Ground in the board - which gives stax a huge pain if you can get it in.

I am sure this deck will work out btw. There are a lot of SOLID cards and gaddock is reinforcing the deck. However i do think gaddock can be exploited even more in another deck/approach

[TopSecret]

12 Sphere effects are listed to slow down/soft lock opponent. So you are making it hard for the opponent to cast spells. Why play with Gaddock TeeG then? You have 8 duress to get there Force if u think that is a problem.

Gaddok Teeg shuts down Massacre, which kills every creature except a pumped Tarmogoyf.
It's also easy to play Massacre around Spheres because of the alternate cost.
Gaddok Teeg causes all kinds of hurt in others ways too,
but stopping Massacre while doing so makes him really good.

You raise a good point about his interaction with the Spheres, though.
Perhaps it would be better to play 3 Gaddok Teeg, especially since he's a legend.
That would potentially make room for a 4th Tarmogoyf maindeck.

[Guli]

12 Sphere effects are listed to slow down/soft lock opponent. So you are making it hard for the opponent to cast spells. Why play with Gaddock TeeG then? You have 8 duress to get there Force if u think that is a problem.

Gaddok Teeg shuts down Massacre, which kills every creature except a pumped Tarmogoyf.
It's also easy to play Massacre around Spheres because of the alternate cost.
Gaddo Teeg causes all kinds of hurt in others ways too,
but stopping Massacre while doing so makes him really good.

You raise a good point about his interaction with the Spheres, though.
Perhaps it would be better to play 3 Gaddok Teeg, especially since he's a legend.
That would potentially make room for a 4th Tarmogoyf maindeck.

Jotun also survives massacre

And massacre is a sb card, and on top of that it shouldn't scare you that much

[TopSecret]

it shouldn't scare you that much

Why?

[Mith]

Again...why Goyf? I don't understand why you'd play it over Grunt. He has ZERO utility. The only green card I'd run is Root Maze...white and black have enough amazing creatures to fill the deck.

Stopping Massacre is an added bonus, but Teeg screws with so many gameplans. I like the idea of running him in a three-color deck. While a U/W/G version would let you also run Meddling Mage, I prefer the card draw and pro-active control of Confidant and Duress. Counterbalance is too slow to set up, and too soft a lock to warrant the effort.

[Implacable]

Again...why Goyf? I don't understand why you'd play it over Grunt. He has ZERO utility. The only green card I'd run is Root Maze...white and black have enough amazing creatures to fill the deck.

Right now, the use of Grunt is minimal; putting cards back into the other fellows' library lets him use the current format's plentiful tutors to use something again.  Tarmogoyf, on the other hand, sticks around forever, and is at the very least as big as Grunt.

[Guli]

Don't underestimate counterbalance/gaddock ive done some testing and im pleased with the synergy and concept.

Sensei Top (Obvious)
Counterbalance (the whole idea 0 - 1 - 2 range)
Spell Snare (flash,drains,dryads,a lot creatures,walk, I like him in this whole 'range' concept)
Meddling Mage (scroll,flash,could serve to the 3 range)
Gaddock TeeG (the whole idea 4 - 5 - 6 range)
Aven Mindcensor (scroll,flash...)

Kataki could be considered to give better matchup vs stax but also serve as a 0 range hoser (moxes) But with top and accel for your own i don't know. Not that eager. I rather play that new artifact glowrider for 2 mana.

The mana base needs serious attention but i don't think its unmanageable. 4xtundra 4xtropical 5-6 fetches 3moxes+petal/lotus 1 island 1 plains looks solid enough.

[Guli]

it shouldn't scare you that much

Why?

I don't know any deck that runs it maindeck.
They need to wish for it and it has to be the red one.
With so many disruption i doubt they will succesfully get that massacre.
Even if they do, im guessing you were smart enough to have some backup plan in your hand. No need to cast ALL your creatures.
-2 / -2 doesn't kill all creatures

[Aekhold]

Censoring Spheres v1.1

// Lands
    3 Bayou
    3 Scrubland
    2 Savannah
    4 Windswept Heath
    2 Bloodstained Mire

// Creatures
    3 Tarmogoyf
    4 Glowrider
    4 Dark Confidant
    3 Gaddock Teeg (Thank you TopSecret, I just didn't noticed that he's legendary.)
    4 Aven Mindcensor

// Spells
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Black Lotus
    4 Thoughtseize
    4 Sphere of Resistance
    4 Thorn of Amethysts
    4 Duress
    1 Mox Sapphire
    2 AEther Vial (I tested all variants from 2-4. 2 are fine, to cheat colors if you're screwed and do tricky things.)
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Ruby
    4 Swords to Plowshares (Yeah, you're all right. This creature removal is needed. Exspecially vs. Tinker->Colossus)

So, my(/Team Broken Rhytms) addition to the discussion:

Boarding in Chains of Mepphistopeles:
Uhm, GAT, Doomsday and stuff like this. But I think we can remove it from the sideboard, because we've
a good MU vs. both of them. This 2 Chains shouldn't change it.

Dark Rituals:
No, I totally disagree with them.
They are so bad and getting worse with every Sphere-effect. In addition to this, you need 2 mana at your first turn to play a Sphere and most of cc3 Combinations can't use BBB.

Swords to Plowshares:
Yes, you're right. Better than Snuff Out  and even good vs. Staxx's big beaters, to stop them from returning (for example Triskelion and Titan).

Gaddock Teeg:
At all, it is not (!) vs. Massacre but it also shut it down. Its another mustcounter in nearly every MU with Forces.
The real bad things it disables:
-Gush !!!!
-Force
-EE
-Chalice !! (exspecially with just 2 Vials main)
Tendrils ( In this case, its another Sphere, sure, storm based combo decks are easy to beat, but Teeg makes it more easy)
So, it disables these cards! Totally. So, i really think it is worth to play.
Of course it can be (ab)used more, but its a very nice addition to the deck's theme.

Tarmogoyf/Jötun Grunt:
So, we had a discussion about that and i can think of the problem with these both.
We decided to play Goofies because:
-It's the most broken creature for 2 mana in this time.
-It's not depending on graveyard cards like Grunt.
-Most of the time, Grunt is bigger than Grunt (a 6/7er beatstick for 1G is just ridicoulos).
@Mith: So, he has a utility. He finishs off our opponent and blocks other big creatures Grunt.
 
Root Maze:
Noticed. We think about its including in the deck.
But Goyf and Teeg look like made for the deck.


Greetings,
Aekhold for Team Broken Rhytm

[Mith]

Again...why Goyf? I don't understand why you'd play it over Grunt. He has ZERO utility. The only green card I'd run is Root Maze...white and black have enough amazing creatures to fill the deck.

Right now, the use of Grunt is minimal; putting cards back into the other fellows' library lets him use the current format's plentiful tutors to use something again.  Tarmogoyf, on the other hand, sticks around forever, and is at the very least as big as Grunt.

What you end up putting back in your opponent's library is generally fetches and filler...i.e stuff they won't want to draw. Decks today combo off a big graveyard (gush/tendrils/ETOW, Ichorid, even Stax wants stuff to weld), so you aren't helping them by emptying out their graveyard. Feel free to go with Goyf, but I just don't feel that he's as useful versus today's combo decks (of which there is quite an abundance).

[Wildfire111]

I'm going to have to go with Jotun Grunt here, his effect is really strong, especially when GAT is setting up for a big will turn.

[Xyre]

This deck is actually rather good against Stax, from first impression. Unless they get Powder Keg (which hoses you), you lock out about half of their deck and are faster than most of the rest, especially with eight Duress.

[Thegreatgonzo]

I honestly think that the graveyard cleaning ability from Jötun grunt is too slow at the moment to affect any deck abusing the yard.
 
Bomberman doesn’t care at all, Ichorid kills to fast for grunt to be relevant, good stax decks are not welder dependant (or can play around grunt via Bazaar of Baghdad), even GAT can kill without Yawgmoth’s will.

So the only good thing about this guy right now is the body/casting cost ratio. In this regard, Goyf seems like the right choice.

Just my two cents.

The Great Gonzo

[And11]

First of all, I like your shell of the deck very much. I have a few comments only based on theory.

I honestly think that neither Goyf nor Grunt is anything but a beater in today's metagame. I wouldn't play any of those two.

However I would definately play 4x Teeg. If you get to resolve one, who cares if you draw another? I mean, his effect is too powerful. I can't believe he negates both Massacre and Engineered Explosives, two very well-represented mass removal spells in the format.

What I would add to the list is Demonic Consultation. It's your #5 of all your creatures, StP, Duress- AND Sphere-effects.

I don't know if I like the Vials. You really want one early on, but when you start drawing number 2 and 3, they're crap. Playing 2 will not get it often enough in your opening hand, so I'd give them the boot. On the other hand, if you start adding Wastelands, Vials seem like a must for this shaky manabase. But IMO Wastelands require Chalice and we haven't got infinite space.

Great concept. It sure will piss off some Gush-packing dudes

[madmanmike25]

Although I like the decklist/concept, it seems to roll to Chalice at 1 and 2, not to mention Wasteland.   I'm pretty much talking about most Stax decks.  The spheres dont really hurt Stax since they have Workshops/Tolarian Academy.  I'm not suggesting you shouldn't play the deck, but rather offer this advice:

I would keep testing with 4 Teeg's and also take out an off color Mox for Lotus Petal since you want him out as fast as possible.  An earlier Teeg would help with the Chalice situation.

Grunt vs. Goyf is daunting.  On one hand the Grunt is a guaranteed 4/4.  On the other, the Goyf might get bigger mid/late game.  The problem I see is that the 2 Spheres and Glowriders might make it difficult to grow/utilize either creature since you or your opponent might not end up with much of a graveyard if neither of you can't cast much of anything.  Basically test BOTH or experiment with a 2/2 split of each before you completely dismiss the Grunt.

I seriously doubt you can support Wastelands in the current build, but a lone Stripmine might fit.

And11's suggestion of D-consultation is worth considering.  You could easily go down to 3 STP's for this, or even try Demonic Tutor.

Possibly test Ancient Tomb out, or the crappier City of Traitors if Thoughtsieze, Confidant(even with the low average) and Mana Crypt take away too much life.

You don't have any basics.  Would Life from the Loam help?  It could also feed a Goyf/Grunt.  It also makes City of Traitors less crappy.

Hope any of that helps, good Luck with the deck.

[the boogie man]

I really like the idea of the deck, but I think that the glowriders are too expensive. I think that three is enough, at most. And have you thought about adding city of traitors or ancient tomb? That lets you drop first turn spheres, second turn riders, and lets you play through your own spheres much easier than conventional methods.