Football

[Meddling Mike]

I started up this thread for various football related topics. There's been some real surprises so far this year.

AFC:
-The Chargers are 1-2
-The Patriots average margin of victory is 26 1/3 points
-Pittsburgh is back with a vengeance despite losing Bill Cowher
-Indy is 3-0, but has just squeaked by the last two weeks against the Texans and Titans.

NFC:
-The Pack is back
-The Cowboys are back
-St Louis went from dark horse NFC Championship pick to 0-3 team
-New Orleans went from sexy NFC Championship pick to 0-3 team
-The Bears went from logical NFC Championship pick to 1-2 team
-The Bucs and Lions have come out of the woodwork.

[Vegeta2711]

Biggest surprises:
Houston is good. I mean people were HOPING they'd be good, but Matt Schaub is playing up to what he was billed as and more. Mario Williams, now that he's had some time to actually learn the position*, is also looking solid. I don't think they make the playoffs this year, because of the Andre Johnson / Green injuries, but next year is a real possibility.

*Seriously, comparing a RB who only has to learn one or two new skillsets while adjusting to NFL game speed versus a whole board of new routes, patterns and abilities. Yeah, real fair criticism to be leveled year one.

San Fransisco's defense becoming really solid this year. Yeah sure they couldn't stop the Steelers, but for the first half they put out a noble effort.

San Diego's fall from grace. An overconfident team which loses all of it's coordinators and HC, but was expected to go even further this year? Yeah right. I was expecting some regression since Norv Turner has been a terrible HC whenever he's held the job, but not outright awful status. SD should never lose to GB considering the gigantic talent gap at all positions, save QB, and complete lack of a running game by GB.

Chicago sucks. Ok, this isn't a surprise for me, but I'm reasonably sure that the thrashing on Sunday showed the general public that you can't have a putrid offense combined with a QB that'll lose you the game and tie it to a defense that (understandably) can't go the full game against opposing offenses. Rian was arguing with me about the game earlier in the week and I kind of threw out a partially ridiculous number of 37-20 dallas. Turns out I was overestimating Chicago.

In non-shocking news, Colts, Steelers and Pats are good. Amazing. Denver was the most overrated statistical / homer team for these first three weeks. They eeked out close victories and JAX showed everyone what a joke their run defense actually is. Sure you may rarely throw the ball to Champ Baileys side, but who cares when you can run for 150+ yards and do stupid little screen passes for massive yardage? Not talking about world beaters here either, Lynch and Lamont Jordan both put up 100+ combined yards on them.

No shit Rams went down the tubes. Losing your HOF Left Tackle will do that to a team. Now Bulger is beat up and Steven Jackson has a groin tear, so he'll be out for the next 2-8 weeks. They'll be playing for next year shortly.

More later maybe when I'm not asleep.

[Smmenen]

The "story" of the year, imo, will be Brett Farve taking his young team to the playoffs and then retiring.  Last year was the set up.  This year is the payoff. 
 

[LordHomerCat]

TEAM OF DESTINY!

The Packers at 3-0 is pretty exciting for me, and Brett Favre looks like he might finally be back to his old form.  If he can hold onto that for enough games this season, he definitely seems like he has the talent around him to take Green Bay back to the playoffs (finally).  Also, the Steelers are looking pretty good, and Roethlisburger is also looking to me a lot like the superbowl winner and much less like a guy who got in a motorcycle accident and had his appendix out.  But I mean, Tom Brady throwing to Randy Moss?  I personally can't justify picking anyone in the AFC to beat that.  As much as I hate the Pats (which is a LOT), I sure wouldn't bet against them.

[Meddling Mike]

But I mean, Tom Brady throwing to Randy Moss?

I remember when the Patriots initially signed Randy Moss. I remember watching Belichick's press conference and he kept on referring to Randy's ability to stretch the field and draw the double team. I saw a plan formulating in my head and I thought I had what Bill was getting at. Other teams were going to be smart, double up on Randy Moss, and this would open up the short game for running and newly acquired Wes Welker and Donte Stallworth would clean up on short-mid yardage passes. Tom Brady's strengths ever since he began in the league had been short accurate passes and screens, rarely did he go for the deep ball. I was about 75% right. The first thing I was wrong about was the other teams, they weren't sharp enough to keep Randy Moss double covered at all times which has allowed him to step up and make the big catches again and again and again while on 1 on 1 mismatches. The second thing was that I underestimated Randy Moss. Even with multiple defenders in the area I've still seen him make quick cuts right through coverage and pull down anything around him. The third thing is that I underestimated Tom Brady's deep game. I always assumed long passes were not his forte and the offense was built around playing to his ability to make short accurate passes, now I believe he always had a long game, but never had the tools to showcase it. I was right that once teams do catch on and cover Randy Moss to at least a double team Wes Welker, Donte Stallworth and the running game provide an excellent threat.

Everybody points to the amazing fireworks the Offense is putting up and I think the defense is getting swept under the rug a little bit. The D is missing two huge playmakers in Rodney Harrison (suspended) and Richard Seymour (Injured) and will be getting both these players back in the coming weeks. This defense has only allowed 35 points all season long, which is amazing given that two great defensive players are riding the pine. Signing Adalius Thomas has been a big upgrade in an already solid linebacker corps. I think this Defense is just going to get better and better.

Also, Love him or hate him, Bill Belichick hasn't needed any recorded signals to blow out every team he's faced so far.

[Klep]

I think this year's real dark horse is the New York Mets.  I think they have a real shot of making it through the playoffs to the Superbowl, which I predict they will win in a surprise, come-from-behind victory.

[The Demon]

Another story of the year is the utter waste of talent that is the Cincinnati Bengals.  If you where to name the top five QB's Palmer would be about third, or maybe fourth if you love Drew Brees.  Chad Johnson could very well be the best WR in the game, TJ. Houshmanzadeh is one of the best number two WR's in the game (behind Wayne and Anquan Boldin IMO) and while I think Rudi Johnson is trash, he does put up a lot of 1400 rushing yard years.  On MNF they beat the Ravens and then they lose to the Browns?  The Browns, yeah the team in Cleveland that your probably forgot existed.  They then go on to play against Seattle and shut down Shaun Alexander, and shut him down hard.  Do not let the stat sheet fool you, they owned him.  He may have gotten 100 yards rushing, but 56 yards came on three of his carries, he was tackled so many times in the backfield it was insane.  And then the worst defensive coordinator in the game today calls a soft cover two zone and they get burned for a TD with a minute left to go.  But hey, they got all those offensive monsters that I mentioned right?  Both of those WRs had over 100 yard receiving by the middle of the third quarter, so there is no way with three timeouts that Seattle has a chance right?  Well forget all of the terrible defensive plays that both team made throughout the game, because the next play symbolizes the biggest waste of talent in the NFL gentleman.  The Bengals fumble the damn ball on the kickoff, and to make matters worse the ball would have bounced into the endzone for a touchback.  Bungles no more?  Yeah I guess since they made the playoffs and always go 8-8, but maybe they should be called the butterfingers Bengals?

The "story" of the year, imo, will be Brett Farve taking his young team to the playoffs and then retiring.  Last year was the set up.  This year is the payoff. 
 

I can only hope the Packers make it to the superbowl and defy the odds.  All that build up will be amazing when they get blown out by the AFC team that they face.  I don't hate Brett Farve, I hate all the Packer fans that I come across in Central Illinois.

Don't double post. - Klep

[Kowal]

To me the real surprise is that Cleveland's offense looks considerably less impotent than it has since its reincarnation.  While a 1-2 record is not that exciting, it's of note that they could easily be 2-1 if they hadn't gotten screwed on a time out during the game winning field goal.

This is delightful for me, since I've been a Cleveland fan since '89 and they haven't had even a mediocre season since then.

[LordHomerCat]

After watching Moss crush the packers for a number of years, I fully believe he is the most talented reciever to ever play the game, no question.  No one has the physical ability he has, its just unfair.  Randy Moss playing up to his full level is basically superhuman.  I really want the Packers to win it all, but I don't know how they can beat Randy Moss getting passes from Tom Brady, when they pretty much couldn't beat Moss getting thrown to by crappy Daunte Culpepper.

[Vegeta2711]

Being the most talented to ever play the game doesn't really mean much when you're still behind a least a dozen WR's in terms of actual player quality and nobodies even sure he's going to the HOF.

[MadManiac21]

Being the most talented to ever play the game doesn't really mean much when you're still behind a least a dozen WR's in terms of actual player quality and nobodies even sure he's going to the HOF.

Player quality? He's arguably taller, faster, more leaping ability, and better hands than anyone else. At WORST you put him on par with Harrison and Johnson. If by player quality you mean his personality; that won't matter. As long as the Pats keep winning (which they will), you'll not hear a peep out of him. Hell, even if he were to start bitching it won't matter. Tom Brady is just too good.  He lines up with 4 wide receivers out of the shotgun and just carves up secondaries.

The key to their success is the health of the O-line. If Brady gets all day to sit back and view the field, he could hit my dead grandmother in triple coverage on the fly for a 60-yard touchdown.

Their D has always been spectacular because of Belicheck's ability to move people around to different positions; he keeps them on their toes and makes sure they are constantly improving their all-around abilities.

The Colts game will test them the most because they'll be playing in the dome. I don't see anyone else legitimately challenging them if they stay healthy; they're easily in the NFL's top 5 on both sides of the ball, with one of the best coaches of our time.

[Vegeta2711]

He said he was the most talented receiver to ever play the game. That's certainly defendable, but I'm saying it's kind of moot because his overall career / quality as a player isn't anywhere near some of the great WRs that have previously played in the history of the NFL. Not sure where you're getting just comparing him to today's players from his statement or mine.

Jerry Rice was the greatest football player in the history of the game. Marvin Harrison's career is light years ahead of Moss's and is the only currently playing WR that has a chance at cracking most of Rice's records. Terrell Owens has similar career numbers in both yards and touchdowns to Moss. I won't even bother going into how some of the older WR's stack up, due to the large differences between the rules regarding DB's and how much a wide receiver could get smashed up back in the day which kept passing numbers across the league lower than today.

[The Demon]

Being the most talented to ever play the game doesn't really mean much when you're still behind a least a dozen WR's in terms of actual player quality and nobodies even sure he's going to the HOF.

Player quality? He's arguably taller, faster, more leaping ability, and better hands than anyone else. At WORST you put him on par with Harrison and Johnson. If by player quality you mean his personality; that won't matter. As long as the Pats keep winning (which they will), you'll not hear a peep out of him. Hell, even if he were to start bitching it won't matter. Tom Brady is just too good.  He lines up with 4 wide receivers out of the shotgun and just carves up secondaries.

The key to their success is the health of the O-line. If Brady gets all day to sit back and view the field, he could hit my dead grandmother in triple coverage on the fly for a 60-yard touchdown.

Their D has always been spectacular because of Belicheck's ability to move people around to different positions; he keeps them on their toes and makes sure they are constantly improving their all-around abilities.

The Colts game will test them the most because they'll be playing in the dome. I don't see anyone else legitimately challenging them if they stay healthy; they're easily in the NFL's top 5 on both sides of the ball, with one of the best coaches of our time.

I would have to agree with most of this, which is unfortunate because the Pats are going to kill my beloved Cincinnati Bengals.  I think Pittsburgh could present a reasonable challenge, they are the team to beat in the AFC North.  Santonio Holmes and Hines Ward make a nice little one WR core, and Willie Parker is becoming a very good running back (although he is still a little inconsistent).  Randy Moss does not have better hands then Steve Smith or Marvin Harrison.  Randy Moss is also not nearly as fast as he once was, but he is still pretty darn fast.  What makes Randy Moss so dangerous is the simple fact that there is a myth that he is only a deep ball threat.  Tom Brady being too good?  Well I know that Brady is a great story, and he will go into the hall of fame, he is still not a better passer then Palmer and Manning.  I am not saying that I would not take him over those two, but as far as the physical act of throwing the ball and making reads and audibles I do not think that he is on par as a passer with those two. 

[MadManiac21]

Tom Brady being too good?  Well I know that Brady is a great story, and he will go into the hall of fame, he is still not a better passer then Palmer and Manning.  I am not saying that I would not take him over those two, but as far as the physical act of throwing the ball and making reads and audibles I do not think that he is on par as a passer with those two. 

Not a better passer? He's had better numbers than Palmer, and comparable numbers to Manning with NOBODIES for wide receivers. Manning - up until last post season - was also notorious for blowing big games, and he can't play outdoors/bad weather. I don't know how you can argue that Brady isn't just strictly better.

Three Rings already! If he doesn't end up considered as top 5 best QB's ever after his time is done, I'll be shocked.

[Vegeta2711]

I don't know how you can argue that Brady isn't just strictly better.

I forget the playoff game where Brady led his team back from 2+ TD down. Refresh my memory?

Also as far as better passer goes, Manning IS arguably better, since he honestly looks better than Marino sometimes and he was probably the 'prettiest' at the QB position which is why he always ends up in most people's top 5 QB lists despite not doing all that much in other achievements.

Brady is the better QB until Manning wins at least another Ring or leads a few more amazing playoff game comebacks.

[The Demon]

Tom Brady being too good?  Well I know that Brady is a great story, and he will go into the hall of fame, he is still not a better passer then Palmer and Manning.  I am not saying that I would not take him over those two, but as far as the physical act of throwing the ball and making reads and audibles I do not think that he is on par as a passer with those two. 

Not a better passer? He's had better numbers than Palmer, and comparable numbers to Manning with NOBODIES for wide receivers. Manning - up until last post season - was also notorious for blowing big games, and he can't play outdoors/bad weather. I don't know how you can argue that Brady isn't just strictly better.

Three Rings already! If he doesn't end up considered as top 5 best QB's ever after his time is done, I'll be shocked.

No, he has not.  Barring his first year starting Palmer has had better years then any of Brady's.  He also had a solid receiving corp for many years.  Givens, Brown and Branch is a very good receiving corp, sure he didn't have a number one stud WR, but at the same time for most of his years he had solid guys one through three to throw to.  If you look at Manning's career you would see that while he has not played that well in playoff games, neither did his team, period.  Marvin Harrison had an amazing ability to just fade away in playoff games, Edge and Wayne also imitated Houdini in the playoffs.

Superbowl championships are a team achievement, it is not the New England Brady's.  Also Brady played with a stellar defense that got many takeaways for him.  Brady is a very fine QB, and he will go to the hall of fame no doubt.  But as far as throwing the ball he is not better then Palmer and Manning.  Going well he is a winner does not mean anything when you are talking about throwing the ball.  Rodney Harrison has three superbowl rings, is he the best safety in the game?  Why does work that way for QB's but not other positions?

[Meddling Mike]

Manning v. Brady

Manning has basically had the francihse built around him. He's always had great linemen, recievers and a solid running game backing him up in the form of Edgerrin James and Joseph Addai. Brady, not so much. Corey Dillon had one really good season, the rest....eh... and Laurence Maroney is fine, but nothing to write home about, he'll slam out the hard yards when you need them but he'll never be an all star. Brady had one feature reciever his whole career, and even Branch wasn't THAT good when he came to New England and wasn't here long before packing up for Seattle. This is the first year he's really had some potent recievers to work with and he's carved up secondaries like a Thanksgiving Turkey. Even without the best offensive weapons Brady has always managed to make do, always came through in the clutch prior to the AFC Championship second half last year (if he had better recievers than Reche Caldwell to throw to this may never have come up either) and has 3 rings for his trouble.

I really haven't seen Palmer enough to make judgements about how he stacks up to Brady and Manning, but I think that says something itself. One playoff game in his whole career.

[Vegeta2711]

Manning has basically had the francihse built around him.

Funny thing about that (other than yeah it's true and it's kind of an obvious truth, why wouldn't you build around your best player?) is that they lacked for years in the one place most super bowls are won, the defense. In fact the 2006 Colts fielded the worst defense in NFL history to win a super bowl.

Why does work that way for QB's but not other positions?

Part of it is public perception, the other part is the simple fact that often times QB's have the most impact as a single player on the flow of the game. You can't really point to one other guy on the offense or defense in football and say, 'Ok, he's clearly the focal point of everything'.

I really haven't seen Palmer enough to make judgements about how he stacks up to Brady and Manning, but I think that says something itself. One playoff game in his whole career.

Palmer has only been in the league like 4 years. Plus he rode the bench his entire first year. Oh and then in the one playoff game he gets to, his knee gets caved in on the first drive of the game. The bungals underachieve because it's a team full of stupid thugs (nice arrest record last year guys) and the defense is full of more holes than swiss cheese.

FWIW, Palmer is an excellent quarterback, he just happens to be attached to a shitty franchise.

[The Demon]

Manning has basically had the francihse built around him.

Funny thing about that (other than yeah it's true and it's kind of an obvious truth, why wouldn't you build around your best player?) is that they lacked for years in the one place most super bowls are won, the defense. In fact the 2006 Colts fielded the worst defense in NFL history to win a super bowl.

Why does work that way for QB's but not other positions?

Part of it is public perception, the other part is the simple fact that often times QB's have the most impact as a single player on the flow of the game. You can't really point to one other guy on the offense or defense in football and say, 'Ok, he's clearly the focal point of everything'.

I really haven't seen Palmer enough to make judgements about how he stacks up to Brady and Manning, but I think that says something itself. One playoff game in his whole career.

Palmer has only been in the league like 4 years. Plus he rode the bench his entire first year. Oh and then in the one playoff game he gets to, his knee gets caved in on the first drive of the game. The bungals underachieve because it's a team full of stupid thugs (nice arrest record last year guys) and the defense is full of more holes than swiss cheese.

FWIW, Palmer is an excellent quarterback, he just happens to be attached to a shitty franchise.

He rode the bench his entire year because the Bengals made a good choice and went the Steve McNair route.  I have seen trial by fire and error either work well ala Big Ben, and fail miserably ala Joey Harrington.  The Bengals underachieve because last year three out of our five offensive lineman where out for substantial periods of time, we lost over half of our secondary and our line backer corps, and to top it all off the game down in Tampa resulted in a loss for us because the official made a call that did not actually exist. 

Chris Henry accounts for almost half of our arrests, between boating under the influence and marijuana possession a good chunk of our arrests are not as big of a deal as the media makes it out to be. 

Please do not remind me of that playoff game, that was one of the absolute most heart wrenching football games I have ever had to watch.  If we do not get back to the playoffs this year then Cincinnati will be looking for a new coach IMO...

[desolutionist]

-Indy is 3-0, but has just squeaked by the last two weeks against the Texans and Titans.

The Colts have a history of losing to those two teams every year.  Beating them is actually quite significant.

[Dante]

At least here in Chicago we don't have to hear anymore "Rex is our quarterback.  This team is 10-2 with Rex".  I wonder if Brian Griese will become just "Brian" in a few weeks - "Brian is our quarterback.  This team is 1-6 with Brian as our quarterback".  I think Jim Miller is contemplating a comeback.  Ugh.  I wonder when the fans will start chanting for third-stringer-turned-lumberjack Kyle Orton.  Sad part is, I think his record as a starting quarterback a couple years ago was like 9-2 and that was without attempting a pass longer than 12 yards ever.

But if you didn't see a Bears choke job as a strong possibility, you weren't really paying attention - we lost a lot on the D-line, Thomas Jones >> Cedric "Hot Potato" Bensen, and we still have Ron Turner calling the plays (maybe Norv can take him to SD?).  The only thing more surprising is how fast the O-line turned from a strength to an absolute pile of steaming poop.

Here's a good over/under bet - Bears total season wins vs 2007 Cubs playoff wins.

[Dxfiler]

There's not alot of talk on the cowboys yet. 

Packers are clearly the NFC darliings right now, but the Cowboys appear to be the best bet for representing the nfc at the superbowl (and actually having a shot).

Romo is getting his bearings and he will be that franchise's quarterback for the next decade or so.  He seems to be firing on all cylinders and more importantly, he's on the same page as his very combative teammates.  When there's friction in Dallas, they suck.  When they are all on the same page, they own.  The friction mainly revolves around TO, but there are plenty of other emotional powder kegs on that team (many being ex-patriots :p), and as long as they are all positive they play better than any other team in their conference.  They fell apart last year not just on one simple missed snap...that entire scenario came about from the team being very vocal and negative about each other and a despondent coach who just wanted to get it over with.  It clearly affected their play.  Parcells, as great a coach as he is and always will be, clearly just wanted out by the time postseason came around.  He had too many headchaes on the field at that stage in his career to constantly answer to Jerry Jones off the field seems like a thankless job.

Now the Cowboys are in a good place.  They know who their quarterback is and have a new coach.  Everyone is happy for the moment and they look like a million bucks.  Are they going undefeated?  Hell no :p  But they have a great shot to go all the way in the NFC and possibly even win the superbowl.... although its doubtful.

OMG feinstein is a giant cowboy.  No ;p I just wanted to talk a little about Dallas because they seem to be ignored right now.  For me, it's the Pats all the way baby.  They've been my favorite team since before Tom Brady got thrown in to replace a fallen bledsoe...
and now i have reason to cheer. 

They've never looked this good, ever.  I honestly think they can make a 70's dolphins-like run like run at an undefeated season.
They just have too many weapons and someone to throw to other than Reche fucking Caldwell.  I don't see how they don't make the bowl unless Indy fires on all cylunders in the post season again AND our secondary crumbles before my very eyes again.  Still, as meddling mage pointed out, if Reche had caught even one of those 3 missed balls last year we might not even be having this discussion... and I know there wont be a discussion on Moss dropping consecutive passes.

Best 3 AFC teams in order are clearly Pats, Colts and Steelers imo.  I had Charges in the 4th slot pre-season but now who knows.  I still think they can make a run at it but Norv Turner seems to be sucking it up and Phillip Rivers really is coming off as very overrated after last year.  But it's early so anything can happen.  I think the Ravens can make a solid run at it and they seem to be completely forgotten about.  That's one strong team of veterans and a very driven coach.

Ultimately I think its Dallas vs. New England at the superbowl with New England winning, which is only slightly off from my pre-season prediction of what should've happened last year with Bears Vs. New England and the Pats winning.

All in all it's been a great season so far and I expect it to get really heated up once we're in the final stretch.

- Dave Feinstein

P.S. Ditto on all the Packers comments.  I really really really want to see Farve make it in the playoffs one last time.  It would bring a tear to my eye :p 

[KrzyMoose]

Brady > Manning.  Period.  Though that may just be my U of M bias.

Though three rings seems pretty good.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the LIONS.  I mean, for cereal.  It's amazing that we actually have a football team this year.  They make the playoffs this year.  Book it.

[The Demon]

Brady > Manning.  Period.  Though that may just be my U of M bias.

Though three rings seems pretty good.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the LIONS.  I mean, for cereal.  It's amazing that we actually have a football team this year.  They make the playoffs this year.  Book it.

Not even remotely close.  If you put Manning on the Patriots the outcome would have been the same.  People make it sound like Brady is this amazing QB who makes all these amazing throws, in reality he does not.  Sure he makes smart choices, and yeah his arm is underratted.  And sure he is very good QB, but he plays on the New England Patriots, not the New England Brady's.  He always had a great play making defense, he always had (barring last year) a good group of WR's.  Winning a SB is a team effort, some players get lucky and get drafted or signed by the right team, and some do not. 


 

[Vegeta2711]

Brady > Manning.  Period.  Though that may just be my U of M bias.

Though three rings seems pretty good.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the LIONS.  I mean, for cereal.  It's amazing that we actually have a football team this year.  They make the playoffs this year.  Book it.

Not even remotely close.  If you put Manning on the Patriots the outcome would have been the same.  People make it sound like Brady is this amazing QB who makes all these amazing throws, in reality he does not.  Sure he makes smart choices, and yeah his arm is underratted.  And sure he is very good QB, but he plays on the New England Patriots, not the New England Brady's.  He always had a great play making defense, he always had (barring last year) a good group of WR's.  Winning a SB is a team effort, some players get lucky and get drafted or signed by the right team, and some do not. 

Eh, I don't know about that. We've never actually seen Manning when he wasn't throwing to two of the best WR in the game. I mean this sounds too much like the classic BS argument against Terry Bradshaw back on the Steelers super bowl teams. Brady is great, lock for HOF, Peyton is great, lock for HOF. Unitas and Montana are still better than both. That's how I see it anyway.

[Dxfiler]

Not even remotely close.  If you put Manning on the Patriots the outcome would have been the same.  People make it sound like Brady is this amazing QB who makes all these amazing throws, in reality he does not.  Sure he makes smart choices, and yeah his arm is underratted.  And sure he is very good QB, but he plays on the New England Patriots, not the New England Brady's.  He always had a great play making defense, he always had (barring last year) a good group of WR's.  Winning a SB is a team effort, some players get lucky and get drafted or signed by the right team, and some do not. 

Brady had no one great to throw to for YEARS.  Manning always had Harrison.  Yes, NE has had a playmaking defense ever since Brady was there... but you need good defenses to win superbowls.  You make it sound like NE had this monstorous defense and Indy had nothing but Peyton and his arm.  Indy always had a solid defense that only really stunk it up in stopping the run... until Bob Sanders exploded last year right when they needed him to.  

Both Manning and Brady have had advantages... it's not a one man show though.  You need a good team to win a superbowl.  Both Brady and Manning had that and still do.  
I'd argue that Brady is the better QB not on the ring issue, but simply because he made the most of what he's been given.  The 3 rings he's already captured are were with teams that had holes (even the 14-2 year that Dillon came on board they still had a terrible receiving core).  This year... they have no major holes.  

If Peyton can win this year over Brady, I think you have a serious case for him being the better QB... until then I just don't see it.

- Dave

[Meddling Mike]

SO, I finally saw some more of Carson Palmer.

Two Interceptions, one TD and two field goals......yeah, I can see why you think he's up there with Brady and Manning.

[MadManiac21]

SO, I finally saw some more of Carson Palmer.

Two Interceptions, one TD and two field goals......yeah, I can see why you think he's up there with Brady and Manning.

Exactly. I don't know how people could even compare them.

I can't wait for the cowboys in two weeks.

[Dante]

To be fair, the Bengals defense is like a Div 2 NCAA team and their offense is a little banged up. 

But he is not Brady or Manning, that's true.

[Vegeta2711]

I think they were down to like 2 starting linebackers after the first drive of the game. Like as soon as I head that I was surprised the Bengals even kept the game close for as long as they did.