9Sphere Stax/Shop Aggro

[LotusHead]

With the coming Thorn of Amethyst in Lorwyn, Shop Players will no doubt be going all out with the lockpeices.

No doubt, teams will be working on lists, but I feel that this archetype needs some public discourse.
History Lesson:  When Trinisphere was unrestricted, I don't know if Stax decks played with 4 Trinisphere AND 4 Sphere's of Resistance.  My meta was sanctioned at that point, and I never had hopes of playing shops myself.  Anyone care to enlighten me?

Now, the deck.

// Lands
    3  City of Brass
    3  Gemstone Mine
    4  Mishra's Workshop
    1  Strip Mine
    1  Tolarian Academy
    4  Wasteland
    1  Ghost Quarter
    1  Bazaar of Baghdad
    1  Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth      The land base is pretty standard.  I'm hoping that the 6 rainbow lands, moxen, etc
                                                      is enough colored mana for the deck.
   
// Creatures                                     Creatures, again, pretty standard stuff here.  Karn can be great, and he can suck.
    3  Goblin Welder
    1  Karn, Silver Golem
    1  Sundering Titan
    1  Triskelion

// Spells
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Demonic Tutor
    1  Mana Crypt
    1  Mana Vault
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Sol Ring
    1  Time Walk
    1  Tinker
    1  Ancestral Recall
    1  Vampiric Tutor
    1  Balance
    3  Crucible of Worlds           
    3  Smokestack                         Despite Iamfishman's fine decklists, I like the SmokeStacks. 3 is plenty.
    4  Sphere of Resistance
    3  Thorn of Amethyst               I've settled on 3 Thorn of Amethysts, mainly to avoid going to 61 cards.
    1  Trinisphere                          Obviously, this makes the deck 8Sphere Stax, but 9Sphere Stax sounds cooler.
    4  Tangle Wire                        I was playing 2 Tangle Wires, which I was fine with (and may go back down to 2).
    1  Crop Rotation                      I'm just trying 4 out to see what it's like.
    1  Memory Jar

// Sideboard
SB: 2  Triskelion
SB: 1  Razormane Masticore
SB: 3  Chalice of the Void
SB: 3  Leyline of the Void
SB: 3  Viashino Heretic
SB: 3  Red Elemental Blast

Crop Rotation  I have been very happy with this card, as people rarely counter it, and getting that Tolarian, Bazaar, Strip Mine, etc is very strong. 
Sideboard Choices:
Chalice of the Void  I have been thoroughly unhappy with Chalice Maindeck, as it often cripples me as bad as it does my opponents.  I prefer to bring it in on the play, when it definately hurts, or against narrow decks like Flash/Belcher/uh. Bomberman?
Leyline of the Void  I have 3 Foil ones. Otherwise, it would be 4.
Triskellion/Razormane Masticore  Sometimes, Stax needs more meat on the field.
Viashino Heretic  These guys are solid, even if they get shut off by Pithing Needle, because they chump block 2/2's all day long, and there are tons of 2/2's that need chumping.
Red Elemental Blasts  Obviously, to deal with Tinker, Ancestral Recal, but mostly to deal with Energy Flux and countermagic.

My SB strategies basically go something like this:
If my opponent is NOT playing Wastelands, then I side out 1 or 2 Crucibles, Memory Jar, a Welder, Vamp Tutor, possibly Ancestral and Crop Rotation, and then bring it whatever I think will hurt their sideboard strategies.
This applies mainly to Gush/Scroll based decks, which are quite common out here.

If my opponent IS playing wastelands, then I have to guess whether or not they are playing Null Rod, Energy Flux, Mass Bounce, or Rack N Ruin type hate.  This affects whether or not the Heretics come in, RedBlasts, etc.
We have Sui-Black players, some Fish-types and a good amount of Stax builds out here.

My gameplan vs Ichorid is to avoid them in the Swiss Rounds, then hope they get hated out and not face them in Top 8.
My gameplan vs Flash is to hope they don't kill me turn 1 game one.
My gameplan vs Oath builds is to panic and hope for the best.

Criticisms, advice, suggestions, YOUR LISTS, etc are welcome.

[The Atog Lord]

Stax decks often have a manabase which is capable of stunningly strong plays, yet is also capable of delivering inconsistent draws to its owner. The problem of the Workshop's mana restriction is exacerbated by the addition of more Spheres. Cards like Balance become even more difficult to cast, and Mishra's Workshop provides no help. The fact that many Stax(less) lists run Coalition Relic is evidence of how starved these manabases can become.

Trying to shove some Thorns into a traditional Stax deck is certainly an excellent place to start. Thorn is a very powerful card which is not unlikely to find its place in the Vintage metagame. However, owing to the problem of incorporating Workshops and Spheres, it is quite possible that the deck which ultimately makes best use of these cards won't be a Stax build at all. Creature-based control decks, such as what Vroman played at Worlds, appear promising at present and may be able to leverage the additional cards which Lorwyn provides to raise themselves to another level of power. On the other end of the spectrum, Mono-Brown type builds may also be better able to leverage this new card that traditional Stax. With plenty of powerful options in artifact form and without the usual problem of balancing colorless and colored mana, a Mono Brown deck may have just received the kick it needed to perform well.

So, by all means continue considering how Thorn can be used in traditional Stax(less) builds. But also keep in mind that the power of this new card may lie either in a creature-based prison deck, or in a colorless artifact deck.

[xycsoscyx]

I was actually working on my Legacy Stax deck, but it started to turn into more of a 5/3 build with 8Sphere (just Sphere/Thorn).  I've been trying out a 9Sphere builds for Vintage, too, but it almost seems to be taking the same path as the Legacy build.  Heavy aggro with beatz like Juggernaut and possibly Magus of the Moon, coupled with Spheres/Thorns/Chalice (still too good to want to outright cut from the MB for me), seems like a decent deck.  It's almost a lot like the old 5/3 4Trinisphere decks, but you have to play a little slower game (since a single Sphere/Thorn only slows them down a turn, where as Trinisphere potentially shut them down at least three turns).

[ErkBek]

I think Thorn gives Stax enough artifact bombs now, that running 1 or 2 color builds for a more stable manabase may be the way to go. A depleting Gemstone Mine seems more problematic than ever with more spheres since more pressure will have to be put on non-shop mana for your non-artifact threats. Also, the combination of Thorn being bad vs. aggro strategies, City of Brass damage seems like it'd pile up even more.

Mono Red, Black, or white stax all seem like they'd bring something good to the table. For 2 color builds, BR, UW, and BW all seem like very interesting synergistic options that can offer a much more stable manabase with close to the same threat density as 5C.

[Kotch]

I would absolutely cut 1 Goblin Welder and 1 Memory Jar for 2 Gorilla Shamans (auto-include!) which are more powerful with all these spheres, especially without Chalice maindeck.
Goblin Welder is sub-optimal with "only" 1 Bazaar of Baghdad, and Memory Jar is imho quite random...

Ghost Quarter... Why?... I think you have enough tutors to find your Strip Mine! I would cut it for 1 more City of brass. I would also cut Urborg or one Wasteland for a Barbarian Ring, adding 1 more red mana source (with 2 more Gorilla shamans, it seems important) and an interesting target to Crop Rotation against problematic creatures.
I personnaly think that 3 Wasteland is enaough in 5C Stax, thanks to the tutors to find Strip Mine.

Very nice build anyway!!!

[LotusHead]

I'm too scared to go less than 3 Welders maindeck, even though I do side 1 or 2 out post board in some matchups.

The Memory Jar is just too broken for me to toss out of the list.  Sometimes Tinker for Titan doesn't cut it, and if I have a Welder active, Jar recursion is almost too strong.

Only 1 Bazaar fits in with the theory of "Shop decks with Welders should at least play 1 Bazaar".  I have had 1 Bazaar in my shop decks (The Gilded Claw, Travis.dec, Duress Stax) for over a year, and I have quite happy with 1.  Only recently have I tried Crop Rotation and have been quite happy with it. I am not quite ready to go on full UbaStax yet as a player  (a year ago, 4 Shops, 4 Bazaars, TimeWalk and ANcestral recall would eat up 10 proxy slots, but I have other players to support on my "team".  Now it is more possible (I have 2 Shops and a Bazaar for real), so UbaStax is a possibility.  My playskill may not be up to it yet.

I have played with 3 Waste/1 Strip, and I find that it's fine.  Especially with SmokeStax, etc, but cutting back on wastes was primarily a decision based on the LARGE amount of basics being used at that time.  Now that basics are at an all time low, I want to ramp up the destructive power of the deck.

Going back to 4 wastes and 1 strip was natural.  Tossing in the random Ghost Quarter is obviously an experiment.  Sure, tutoring for a Strip Mine is great, but sometimes I want to tutor for something else (Tinker comes to mind, so does Bazaar).  Ghost Quarter replaced a City of Brass.

Thanks for suggestions, everyone.

I ALWAYS have a deck called Crushing Chamber assembled, and it's affinity-dudes interact nicely with Sphere's and Thorns (Namely, affinity helps counteract Sphere's, and Thorn's affect it not at all).    The ol' River's Affinity build ran 4 Sphere's and 4 Tangle Wires.  Maybe that kind of build (with MetalWorkers) could be the 9SPhere Shop Aggro deck.

[Appletree]

I think the best route to go with 9Spheres.dec is either two- or monocolored. I've chosen the second:

  //Lands 28
    4 Mishras Workshop
    3 Ancient Tomb
    4 Wasteland
    1 Strip Mine
    3 Barbarian Ring
    4 Mountain
    4 Bazaar of Baghdad
    4 Maze of Ith
    1 Tolarian Academy

  //Creatures 4
   4 Goblin Welder

  //Spells 28
    5 Moxen
    1 Sol Ring
    1 Mana Vault
    1 Memory Jar
    1 Trinisphere
    4 Jester's Cap
    4 Leyline of the Void
    7 Spheres (don't know which way to split them best...)
    4 Crucible of Worlds

//Sideboard
Barbarian Ring, Sphere, Pyroclasm, Serum Powder, Viashino Heretic, Pyrostatic Pillar,
Granite Shard, Red Blast, Shattering Spree, Pithing Needle, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale...

The deck tries to slow down the game until it can kill with some nonsense like recurring Rings or Welder beats. Maybe I should put in more Creatures, but I don't like them as dead draws in opening hands. Generally, you've won the game when you've removed all threads from the opponents library and winning from there is just a formality. I'm frightened how good Cap is vs most decks.

If you really want to abuse Thorn you should try to build a man prison build fitting four and some combination of Aven Mindcensors, Glowriders and Ancient Tombs, but I haven't come up with a functioning build yet.

That Crushing Chamber thingie sounds interesting, could you please post a decklist?

[LotusHead]

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=18620.0 is Purple Hat's original thread.  The decklist I settled on was on page 3 or 4.

[The_spooky_kid]

Don't worry, I'll definitely break thorn of amethyst come time for the scg chicago mega weekend.

[meadbert]

I think the best route to go with 9Spheres.dec is either two- or monocolored. I've chosen the second:

  //Lands 28
    4 Mishras Workshop
    3 Ancient Tomb
    4 Wasteland
    1 Strip Mine
    3 Barbarian Ring
    4 Mountain
    4 Bazaar of Baghdad
    4 Maze of Ith
    1 Tolarian Academy

  //Creatures 4
   4 Goblin Welder

  //Spells 28
    5 Moxen
    1 Sol Ring
    1 Mana Vault
    1 Memory Jar
    1 Trinisphere
    4 Jester's Cap
    4 Leyline of the Void
    7 Spheres (don't know which way to split them best...)
    4 Crucible of Worlds

So if your opponent opens up with turn 0 Leyline then you have no removal and your only route to victory is Welder beats?

[Bill Copes]

Here's how I'll probably play things with the new sphere:

4 Mishra's Workshop
4 City of Brass
4 Wasteland
2 Gemstone Mine
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Stripmine
1 Bazzaar of Baghdad
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Valut
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby

4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Goblin Welder
3 Smokestack
3 Crucible o fWorlds
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Powder Keg
1 Sundering Titan
1 Crop Rotation
1 Trinisphere
1 Mind Slaver
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Coalition Relic
1 Balance
1 Triskelion
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Memory Jar
1 Duplicant
1 Tinker
1 Time Walk

Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Swords to plowshares
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Ray of Revelation
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 orb of Dreams   
1 Shattering Spree
1 Jester's Cap
1 Triskelion

This is the same list I've played for the last two months, with 2 thorns main instead of 2 chalices.  I honestly have no idea what the (New England) meta is going to look like for the next month and a half, so sticking to what's worked thus far with a minor tweak seems logical.

I'm not so sure chalice is going to be worth it at all anymore.  The only times I ever use them are Vs. combo (which thorn will help against) and the stax mirror (only on the play, and always at 0).  For those reasons, the chalices in the board might be better served as gorila shamans, or additional plows and shattering sprees.  Then again, I haven't seen the new Lorwyn-enhanced decks in action yet.  The printing of Gaddok Teeg makes me want to play them even less.  Who know's what to do?

I know everyone has a different play style and certain cards are more effective to some than others.  In my experience, a multitude of spheres has won a lot more games than chalice ever has, so I probably won't miss them so much.  I'm sure it's the exact opposite for other people.  Whatever works, right?

[Outlaw]

I agree with Bill in the utmost amount.  Personally my only change to my build of stax is going to be -2 Chalice of the Void, +2 Thorns.  Chalice is meh right now with so many people running Gush, but Spheres hinder gush in a huge way.  I have always said the one card that distinctly destroys a deck running Gush is Sphere because the fact that their free/cheap spells now are not free and or cheap.  I run 2 Coalition relics to help mitigate the inability to cast bomb spells in a deck full of bomb spells.  Chalice may find its way in the board as currently I believe it only hinders Stax and only if you are on the play while in most cases Spheres get sided out.

By the way to Lotushead, Kevin Cron ran 3 Trinisphere and 4 Sphere of Resistance when he won SCG Syracuse, his logic was cards that beat stax cost 3 at the time (rack and ruin, eflux)

[emidln]

I think the best route to go with 9Spheres.dec is either two- or monocolored. I've chosen the second:

  //Lands 28
    4 Mishras Workshop
    3 Ancient Tomb
    4 Wasteland
    1 Strip Mine
    3 Barbarian Ring
    4 Mountain
    4 Bazaar of Baghdad
    4 Maze of Ith
    1 Tolarian Academy

  //Creatures 4
   4 Goblin Welder

  //Spells 28
    5 Moxen
    1 Sol Ring
    1 Mana Vault
    1 Memory Jar
    1 Trinisphere
    4 Jester's Cap
    4 Leyline of the Void
    7 Spheres (don't know which way to split them best...)
    4 Crucible of Worlds

So if your opponent opens up with turn 0 Leyline then you have no removal and your only route to victory is Welder beats?

Actually, no. You still can deck them (4 Caps = 12 cards removed from their deck). Sadly, I have experience with this. This build isn't good, but not precisely for that reasons. For example, if your opponent happens to get a creature on the table you have 4 Welders to chump and 4 Maze of Ith.

[Kotch]

I am really surprised to see that every list above doesn't run any Mox Monkey... 
The reasons not to play them should be :
- If a mox monkey is on board, the opponent will not play his moxes,
- If Chalice of the Void is played Maindeck, having too much spells with a CC of 1 is a bad idea.

These two reasons are obsolete in new lists because :
-Packing 8 or 9 sphere forces opponent to play his moxes as soon as possible, because he really needs more mana to cast his spells, so playing a mox monkey afer a sphere is broken!
-Chalice of the Void is now in the sideboard, allowing 1CC spells in the maindeck.

Some lists play Powder keg, I like it a lot, but I find Mox Monkey better, especially since Empty the Warrens is less played.
I play 2 mox monkey and 1 Karn with 4 Sphere, 3 Thorns and 1 Trinisphere in my 5C Stax build. There are so much games I won thanks to this 1/1, destroying the mana base of my opponents who were trying to deal with 1 or 2 Spheres.

[BruiZar]

I agree with Kotch. Mox monkey seems very good with the new sphere.

[LotusHead]

So, by all means continue considering how Thorn can be used in traditional Stax(less) builds. But also keep in mind that the power of this new card may lie either in a creature-based prison deck, or in a colorless artifact deck.

ManaBase
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Ghost Quarter
9 SoLoMoxenCryptVault

4 Serum Powder

Locks:
2 Time Vault
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Trinisphere
4 Smokestack
4 TangleWire
3 Crucible of Worlds

Dudes:
4 MetalWorker
1 Triskellion
1 Sundering Titan
1 Karn, Silver Golem

Random:
Memory Jar
Bazaar of Baghdad

SideBoard:
???

I threw this together (and should actually be able to test it on Friday).

The 2 Time Vault's are "supposed" to interact with Smokestack and Tangle Wire, although with the currant oracle text, it won't be as spiffy as past HyperMud varients (or Time Bandits!) was.  Still, with 4 Tangle Wire, skipping a turn (and having opponent have a fairly non-turn after) will juice up the Vault.
The Serum Powders are for the free mulligans, they are mana sources in play, permanents for SmokeStack, and they are mana sources in hand with Metal Worker.
Karn, Trike and Titan are there to end the game eventually.
The Time Vaults, Jar and Bazaar could easily turn into 4 Staff of Dominations.

Thoughts?  I won't have a real T2 tourney to go to until sometime in November, so there's time to refine any 9sphere build.

Ok, I won't lie, I want Mizzium Transrelequiant in the deck to combo with Time Vault, but I can't see it being any better than Staff of Domination or my uber lock peices.

[xycsoscyx]

Actually, the new Artifact that lets you copy abilities is probably better if you really want to abuse Time Vault (since it allows for infinite turns without the need of colored mana).

[asi]

Actually, the new Artifact that lets you copy abilities is probably better if you really want to abuse Time Vault (since it allows for infinite turns without the need of colored mana).

How does Rings of Brighthearth allow for infinite turns with Time Vault? It can only be activated once per Time Vault Activation, so you would need endless mana + endless Time Vaults to achieve anything.

[yawg07]

Actually, the new Artifact that lets you copy abilities is probably better if you really want to abuse Time Vault (since it allows for infinite turns without the need of colored mana).

How does Rings of Brighthearth allow for infinite turns with Time Vault? It can only be activated once per Time Vault Activation, so you would need endless mana + endless Time Vaults to achieve anything.

Because when you tap to take an extra turn, you copy it.
You now take two extra turns, so skip one of them to untap it.

2 - 1 = 1 extra turn left

SO, on your extra turn you netted from that, be sure to repeat the process.

[Madpeep]

Yeah, I was thinking Rings of Brighthearth and Time Vault might find their way into a Mindslaver deck.  They can be thrown away with Thirst for Knowledge and then brought back later when the combo is in place.

[LotusHead]

Actually, the new Artifact that lets you copy abilities is probably better if you really want to abuse Time Vault (since it allows for infinite turns without the need of colored mana).

I'm sure this has been brought up in Stax decks of yesteryear, but I got to playtest my 9SphereMudStax build (well, against GAT and Bomberman).

Time Vault, tossed in almost purely for fun, was indeed fun when I had Tangle Wire and Smokestack down.  I would untap on my turn (including Time Vault), tap and sac some stuff, then draw a card and say go.  Then, my opponent got 2 non-turns (their turn and their "free" turn), while I had a Time Vault untapped and ready to go.

EDIT #1: I do believe that the Time Vault, Mizzium Transrelinquient combo involves zero colored mana. Time Vault: 2, Transrelenquient: 3, activation: 3, once peices are in play, 3 gives you a free turn every turn.

EDIT #2: Return of the Gilded Claw!

9 SoLoMoxenCryptVault
2 Gilded Lotus
1 Darksteel Ingot (I don't own relics...yet.)
4 Mishra's Workshop
3 City of Brass
3 Gemstone Mines
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Bazaar of Baghdad
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

4 Goblin Welder
1 Sundering Titan
1 Triskellion
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Karn, Silver Golem
1 Memnarch
1 Razormane Masticore

1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Time Walk
2 Intuition
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Crop Rotation
1 Tinker
1 Memory Jar
1 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Crucible of Worlds
1 Trinisphere
1 MindSlaver.

SB: 15 great cards.

Notes: The Mana Base
Basic skeleton I played for about a year.  Urborg is in there just cause, plus it lets me use Shop/Bazaar mana to pay for Sphere's and Energy Flux.
3 Wasteland: I have Crop Rotation, and I have been happy with this in my Stax builds.  This can be cut for say, more Thorns.

Dudes:
Goblin Welders are really good in this deck.  Welder plus Intuition/Bazaar/Crop Rotation/Tinker/Jar/Trike/Titan/etc is hardcore.
Memnarch: Overkill, perhaps, and certainly a holdover from original Gilded Claw lists.  Is cuttable, but Null Rods are on the decline, and Flash sucks as combo goes, so Vintage seems to have slowed down a bit.  He's a bomb given plenty of Mana, something the Claw can do.  Otherwise, 4/5 for 7.
Gorilla Shaman: I have put Chalice in the side, so I have one random mox monkey.  Why not?

Bombs:
Intuition. Really good with Welder.  One of the hallmarks of the original Gilded Claw lists.  I only have 2 MD because I am still working on the maindeck...
Time Walk: Cuttable, as it usually does "draw a card".
Sensei's Divining Top: Cuttable, but I like it in theory.

Tenative SB:
2 Trikes
3 Seal of Cleansing/Primordium
3-4 Jester's Caps
3 Heretics
3 Chalice of the Void
1-2 Dupe/Platz.

Again, I have at least a month before my next Vintage Tourney.  I do want to fit in more Thorn of Amethysts (and old School Juggernaughts), but I am operating under the assumption that

[Bill Copes]

1 MindSlaver

How has this worked out for you?  I've been playing 1 in my list for the past month (two tournaments) and found it to be useful only once (but damn, was it a bomb).  Granted, it didn't show up in a lot of games and during the games I did see it, I was already winning.  Do you think it's worth including, being that stax-esque decks already have so many different avenues of winning the game?

[LotusHead]

1 MindSlaver

How has this worked out for you?  I've been playing 1 in my list for the past month (two tournaments) and found it to be useful only once (but damn, was it a bomb).  Granted, it didn't show up in a lot of games and during the games I did see it, I was already winning.  Do you think it's worth including, being that stax-esque decks already have so many different avenues of winning the game?

In this build, MindSlaver is potentially very scary.  Intuition can get it in the yard, and Mishra's Factory CAN recur MindSlaver indefinately.  Active Welder plus intuition is just nuts.

[madmanmike25]

9 SoLoMoxenCryptVault
2 Gilded Lotus
1 Darksteel Ingot (I don't own relics...yet.)
4 Mishra's Workshop
3 City of Brass
3 Gemstone Mines
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Bazaar of Baghdad
1 Mishra's Workshop
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

4 Goblin Welder
1 Sundering Titan
1 Triskellion
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Karn, Silver Golem
1 Memnarch
1 Razormane Masticore

1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Time Walk
2 Intuition
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Crop Rotation
1 Tinker
1 Memory Jar
1 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Crucible of Worlds
1 Trinisphere
1 MindSlaver.

Playing with 5 Workshops would be sweet.  Too bad the Factory only produces 1 mana.

The main thing I didn't like about Guilded Claw was having to play with Guilded Lotus.  Also, Spheres can backfire on you.

Intuition is crazy good.  I would up the count on Crucibles to 4 so you can Intuition for Stripmine more frequently.  It's a bomb with a resolved Welder or a resolved Crucible.

Aren't Razormane and Trike too similar in this deck?  Don't you think Duplicant might be a better slot than Razor since he can get those bigger creatures?  While Razor is a great beater, Tinkering for a Dupe can save your ass more often.  Give it a thought.

Seems like Angel almost belongs in the maindeck as well.  She's probably better than Memnarch, eh?

Would ITEOC be a good SB card for you in a tourney?  Play against a lot of Gush?

My suggestions:
-1 Workshop
-1 Razor
-1 Memnarch
-1 your choice (maybe Top?)

+1 Factory
+1 Dupe
+1 Angel
+1 Crucible

Good luck.
Mike

[LotusHead]

Playing with 5 Workshops would be sweet.  Too bad the Factory only produces 1 mana.

I fixed List.

The point of this list is to abuse Sphere's of Resistance and Thorn of Amythist.

Dupe, Platz and Crucible#4 etc is fine (I'll probably go -1 Razormane Masticore, +1 Duplicant).
This deck crams in so much stuff it's scary, but decks like this really only survive in a Null Rod free meta.

[Madpeep]

Yeah, it's a good thing no one's playing Null Rods right now, but that'll probably change in the near future.

[Kotch]

I really love the new Sphere, allowing Stax to pack a new mana-disruptive artifact. I am convinced that this mana-denial aspect was less played with the Staxless Stax or UbaStax recent lists, but this new artifact might bring a return to the old-school Stax style, packing more mana-denial disruption.

I particulary love the interaction between all these Spheres and Mox Monkey/Karn : Spheres force opponent to play Moxes to have more mana sources, and then Mox Monkey wrecks them...

I also think that Smokestack can be more effective with all these Spheres, even with so many Gush in the metagame.

Here are the 2 lists I'm testing since Lorwyn :

AGGRO MUD :
Maindeck 60 cards :
Mana 27 :
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
2 City of Traitors
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Wasteland
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
Lock pieces 24 :
1 Trinisphere
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Smokestack
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Tangle Wire
4 Thorn of Amethyst
Beatdown 9 :
2 Triskelion
3 Karn, Silver Golem
4 Juggernaut
SB: 3 Razormane Masticore
SB: 4 Orb of Dreams
SB: 4 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 Jester's Cap

I think that old MUD lists could suffer from a lack of winning cards (Smokestack, allowing a total lock, was really TOO important), but playing a huge beatdown allows the deck to win without a total lock on the opponent.


5C STAX :
Maindeck 60 cards :
Mana 27 :
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
3 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Wasteland
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
Lock pieces 21 :
1 Trinisphere
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Smokestack
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Tangle Wire
2 Gorilla Shaman
Tinker targets 3 :
1 Karn, Silver Golem
1 Sundering Titan
1 Triskelion
Tools 9 :
2 Goblin Welder
1 Bazaar of Baghdad
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Crop Rotation
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Balance
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Tinker
SB: 1 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 Viashino Heretic
SB: 2 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 Platinum Angel

In this 5color Stax list, I'm also testing Memory Jar in place of a Tangle Wire, which are inefficient on the play and less powerfull in a Gush metagame. The sideboard is quite crappy...


I'm convinced that the current metagame is really favorable to Stax, and Thorns of Amethyst helps!

[xycsoscyx]

Has anyone considered Welderless builds, but with more agressive card drawing via Dark Confidant?  I've been trying out a basic B/R list which just focuses on locking down an opponent, then killing with whatever is available (running 4x Mishra's Factories, 4x Bob, and 2x Mox Monkey).  9x Sphere, Smokey, and Chalice all provide a great lock, the Monkeys help with removal against opposing Chalice and Moxen, and the card advantage of Bob can't be beat (especially since 4x Thorn help lower the average casting cost of the deck even more).

Black still allows tutors, as well, and some interesting removal like Edicts (great against Colosuss and pesky Dryads).  Red offers more Artifact destruction (Rack and Ruin, Shattering Spree, etc).  Team it up with Leyline of the Void and Maze of Ith in the SB and you're good to go.

[madmanmike25]

Here is a list that is fun and works well.

AGGRO MUD :
Maindeck 60 cards :

Mana 25 :
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
2 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Wasteland
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring

Lock pieces 16:
1 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Orb of Dreams
4 Tangle Wire
4 Thorn of Amethyst

Beatdown 15:
4 Juggernaut
4 Metalworker
4 Myr Enforcer/Synod Centurion
3 Karn, Silver Golem

Card draw/Utility: 4
3 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Memory Jar

That is the MUD Aggro list I have toyed with.  Thorns>Spheres when you run more creatures, and if your opponent is also running creatures; yours are bigger.  I like Chalice instead of Spheres as I find them more disruptive, but Spheres could just as easily go in that slot.  I would start the Chalice @1 if you keep it in.  Spheres makes STP cost 1W, which isn't that hard for an opponent to get.  Chalice prevents it completely for the same cc.

Aggro doesn't really need Smokestack, and therefore really doesn't need Crucible.  Metalworker takes the Crucible slot, however I would still start with a lock piece.  Game 2/3 a first turn Metalworker easily activates a Turn 2 Jesters Cap, so he becomes a threat in essence.

Orb of Dreams doesn't really affect you since none of your creatures have haste and you don't use fetchlands.  Great against Gush-based decks.  If you don't like Orb, Spheres can go in this slot as well, but Orb is better to animate via Karn than Sphere.**EDIT Don't forget if you lay Wasteland first you can destroy fetchlands.

Sword is a great card for picking off the smaller critters out there and gives you a faster clock.  I would use Jitte if it could draw cards.  3 seems like the appropriate number of equipment for 15 creatures. (1:5 ratio)

Good luck.
Mike

[shadowofrpgfreak]

Has anyone considered Welderless builds, but with more agressive card drawing via Dark Confidant?  I've been trying out a basic B/R list which just focuses on locking down an opponent, then killing with whatever is available (running 4x Mishra's Factories, 4x Bob, and 2x Mox Monkey).  9x Sphere, Smokey, and Chalice all provide a great lock, the Monkeys help with removal against opposing Chalice and Moxen, and the card advantage of Bob can't be beat (especially since 4x Thorn help lower the average casting cost of the deck even more).

Black still allows tutors, as well, and some interesting removal like Edicts (great against Colosuss and pesky Dryads).  Red offers more Artifact destruction (Rack and Ruin, Shattering Spree, etc).  Team it up with Leyline of the Void and Maze of Ith in the SB and you're good to go.

While Bob's a nice engine, there's one tiny problem with him in a shop deck... your cc's tend to be a little up there. Spheres are only 2, but Stack is 4, Wire is 3, Trini is 3, many of the cards you'd tutor for are 3, and while you'd be running plenty of utility lands, thus allowing for more 0 cost cards, flipping over a non-land has a big potential to take a chunk out of your life. Now, I suppose it could also run Top, but... I dunno, then it heads down a convoluted path.

On another note... that's a very, um, interesting deck list Mike O_o There's something about a Juggernaut packing a Sword of Fire and Ice that's so very wrong, yet at the same time so very right.