Meta bomb or lucky finisher?

[BruiZar]

Lately I've been using Hidetsugu’s Second Rite and I've been racking up more and more kills with this card. Every time I use it it comes down as such a surprise to my opponent, it takes him a few seconds to realize what killed him.

Now that fetches, thoughtseize, street wraith, confidant and many other cards use life as a resource and have become vintage staples, it's getting increasingly easy to get a player at 10 life. The argument some people may have that its too hard to bulls eye a player on exactly 10 life is absolutely not true. This used to be my assumption before I tried it myself. At 10 life left your opponent probably has set up a plan for the coming few turns to kill you, thinking the game is far from over. While your opponent is thinking some turns ahead, plotting a kill, you finish it right here right now.

I want to ask you to think about it, test it and give me your opinion.

Is this a meta bomb or a lucky finisher?.

[policehq]

what are the list(s) you've played this card in?

[Moxlotus]

Pure luck.  Crack fetch, beat the card.  Tap city of brass, beat the card.  It is a 4 mana red spell that wins you the game in extremely extremely limited circumstances.

[LotusHead]

Is this a meta bomb or a lucky finisher?.

It's a MetaBomb if your meta is Limited Kamagawa Drafts.

Really, we need a list to even consider this card.

Yes, I've been killed by it several times. In draft.

[desolutionist]

You can play Gifts Ungiven for the same mana cost and just win anyway.

[TopSecret]

It seems like a pretty neat Cunning Wish target.

[madmanmike25]

This card gets owned by healing salve.  But seriously, waaay to dependent to be effective imo.  Not saying that getting an opponent near 10 life is difficult with red, just that having an opponent EXACTLY at 10 is too random to be trustworthy. 

Seems to me to even consider it you would have to have some variation with your damage cards, meaning that you might not play with the highest dmg per cc spells, and that alone is bad.

Maybe a R/B list could do it, but it would probably have to run lots creatures and DURESS to know for sure if you should cast this.  How many copies of this card did you run?

[Setnakt]

Are you sure you're using the word "meta" correctly? Against what field would this become a good call?

[lordmayhem]

Lately I've been using Hidetsugu’s Second Rite and I've been racking up more and more kills with this card.

You must have been playing this against some pretty bad players, in order to be getting kills with this. A player can just crack a fetchland in response to this. Also, after you kill a player with it, achieving an extremely random kill, a player can just mana burn himself when he's at exactly 10 life.

[Dan_in_a_Can]

You can't mana burn until the end of one of your phases


Also, the card is just too unreliable

[lordmayhem]

You can't mana burn until the end of one of your phases

Thanks!
Note that I didn't say you mana burn in response to Hidetsugu's Second Rite, but rather mana burn yourself when you're at exactly 10, however.
 

[madmanmike25]

Thanks!
Note that I didn't say you mana burn in response to Hidetsugu's Second Rite, but rather mana burn yourself when you're at exactly 10, however.
 

That would almost be enough to run the card maindeck and then SB them out.  Watching your opponent trying to decide whether or not to mana burn when he is around 10-12 life is too hilarious for Vintage, and hence the card should not be played.

[BruiZar]

I'll add a list shortly, thanks for your comments everyone. I do want to stress that this is an alternative kill, this can't be your main kill since it will only get you 1 kill per match max.

The way I play it is by wishing it up against players that you notice are agressive with their life totals. Lava Dart is a great tool to bull's eye someone before grabbing a second rite and casting it. I know Gifts is 4 mana, so is Tendrils and Empty the Warrens, but these cards require you to setup conditions before they can be turned into a win.

The difference with Second Rite is that the required setup is mostly done by your opponent as he hammers his own life total to 10.

I'm still not sure if the card it self is good enough to warrant a space in the mainboard but as a sideboard wish target, I don't think the deck suffers from its inclusion.

I've also experienced that players are completely unprepared against this card which is the reason why I play it at all. A 4 mana game ending card no one is expecting must be some good, no?

[tomjoad]

Once upon a time, I played this as a singleton in T2. As others have noticed, if you should randomly mise a victory off this guy, it's awesome. Not only did you just steal a win from out of nowhere (and, in my case, it was always in games I was waaay behind in), but now anybody you play will skip straight from 10 to 9 all day. So, what I'm saying is, this card was fine in T2, where the cards are pretty bad anyway. In Vintage, it seems like some regular playable (Echoing Truth, Fire//Ice, nothing too exciting, but solid) would be better.

[LordHomerCat]

I've also experienced that players are completely unprepared against this card which is the reason why I play it at all. A 4 mana game ending card no one is expecting must be some good, no?

No, it doesn't.  What deck are you going to use to wish for this card?  You have to either have 7 mana so you can cast it right away, or you have to have them at exactly 10 AND tapped out.  That sounds like pretty much the worst wish target ever.  Not to mention, this is a format full of Force of Wills and fetchlands, so if they have either of those your spell won't do anything (even if you can counter back, FoW drops their life total).

This card is completely unplayable.  And, any deck that would run this card is also completely unplayable.

[BigBarn]

if you think it's getting easier and easier for people to get to 10 life, you may just want to try out Erratic Explosion and Draco.  You'll probably kill them faster.

[andrewpate]

If this were good, it would be good because it would force them to keep a counterspell back or a fetchland unused.  It would be a maindeck card in a Fish strategy along with Wasteland and friends, with the threat of it acting as a disruption element (and hey, maybe once per tournament you randomly get the chance to kill with it, kind of like how every once in a while maybe you reanimate a fat Golgari Grave Troll with Ichorid).  Like, I might even sit down to the match and say, "By the way, I'm playing with Hidetsugu's Second Rite," and show it to them before I shuffled.  It does its job better when they know it's there.

As a "Surprise!" kill condition, how often is this really better than Tinker Colossus?

[Spacebalzz]

Hey, at least it can't be misdirected.  Except in extremely limited circumstances.  God, that would be sooo awesome

[Roat17]

It might net a few random wins, which could be reason to include in some kinda deck somewhere in the universe.  What I believe the other people are trying to enforce is that this card does nothing if you have it and your opponent is NOT at 10 life.  Gifts (and the rest of the list of cards) actually DO something at every point in the game.  If you drain someone, and it just so happens they are at 10 life, you might be able to pull a win out by wishing for it and casting it.  It kills someone of itself in extremely narrow situations, whereas the other cards mention at 4cc have a much broader scope in which they are useful. 

The biggest problem is the inconsistency.  If it wins 1 out of 5 matches, that's pretty bushleague.  A card like Gifts and Empty probably win closer to 2 out of 3.  So it might be cool in conjunction with another similar finisher, but otherwise you are trading substance for style.

[Daeg42]

My "Math" Deck used a sunforger/Ball lightning or Groundbreaker or glass golem equip swing uneqip rite  auriok steelshaper to make the Equip cost drop, a few burn/life gain cards and Mirror universe/Magus of the mirror some search lands/mana burn trade and rite if halfway playable with workshop, mainly lucky finisher though to hard to keep competative

[forests failed you]

Its cute, but I am pretty sure unplayable in Vintage. 

I played it in my sideboard at 5-color worlds and cunning wished for it to finish my round two opponent.  The only difference is that in type four you get an infinite amount of sideboard cards to wish for, and only play one game.

In addition:  There are just too many ways for an opponent to change their life total in response to second rite.  Fetch lands for instance:

Other examples:

Triskellion
Triskellavus
Grim Lavamancer
Mogg Fanatic
Vampiric Tutor
Fire/Ice


The big one is fetch lands.

[Zwadishim]

Look people, if a card says- I win and only costs 4 mana, the fact that it doesn't always work is not an arguement against.  What is happening on this post is a bunch of people who have not triied thee thing shooting it down on theory.  The effect is amazing if you have the right circumstance and I would like serious discussion rather than simple knee jerk reactions to a burn spells being good in vintage.  I have played enough magic to know that with the right kind of set up a lot of thigs really work well.

[LordHomerCat]

Look people, if a card says- I win and only costs 4 mana, the fact that it doesn't always work is not an arguement against.

Really?  That's exactly what it is.  Test of Endurance is not a bomb.  It does say I win if you survive a turn with it, except that its extremely hard to actually make it relevant.  HSR is the same way, its ridiculously hard to get the conditions to that point and even if you do, they could have a fetchland or vampiric tutor and it's all for nothing.  This card is useless, I recommend accepting that and moving on if you wish to improve at vintage and magic in general.