More mountains: UR Landstill almost makes it in! (Mol, Belgium 21-10-2007)

[Odd mutation]

Hi,

This is a report from the tournament I attended today in Mol, Belgium. The club, where I regularly play, hosts eternal events on a regular basis. People from all over Belgium and across the border -Belgium isn’t that big so nobody has to drive too far- join in these very nicely run Vintage and Legacy events. It’s a nice crowd and it’s easy to get to know each other fast because almost everybody returns there! The level of play is decent with some really good players. You’ll see some regular faces in the top 8 every time.
Today we had 30+ people. Decklists will be posted here as soon as the organisers are up for it.

I’ve been playing GAT mostly but I got bored with 'Gushing for the win' all the time. I can’t really explain it but it just doesn’t feel like much fun anymore. Although I still consider GAT as one of the most powerful decks I’ve ever played, it just isn’t fun anymore. I used to be a pretty good Gifts player but ‘they’ had to break that deck and give us something even better instead. I thought Gifts was really challenging to play -and definitely not in need of restriction but I don’t want to open that can of wurms here. Gush is even better but alas, to my taste at least, a little ‘bland/boring’. It’s just not as challenging as Gifts Ungiven, although it is definitely not a straight forward deck to play. Maybe my opinion will change after some time and I will pick it up again. Right now I felt like I needed something more… ‘challenging’.

At first I put some Stax decks together –last time I got 9th with my own creation, some version of Aggro Stax- and they did ok but still, I wasn’t really happy with them. Stax is difficult to build correctly. There are many options to choose from and the metagame affects your choices a lot. Stax deck are also pretty challenging to play perfectly, whatever version, and I felt like I needed more practice… So, I decided to play something I hadn’t touched anytime before!

First I tried Rector Flash but I wasn’t happy with that –sorry Moxpearl. I drew 10 hands and none of them were any appealing! I realise I gave up a little bit too fast here -a version actually did make top 8 today!- but this was just not what I was looking for. I wanted to play something ‘different’. So, I started browsing through some of the top 8’s that get posted here and elsewhere and stumbled upon this deck:

Main deck (60)

4 x Force of Will
4 x Mana Drain
4 x Stifle
4 x Standstill
4 x Fire & Ice
3 x Chain of Vapor
3 x Misdirection
1 x Ancestral Recall
1 x Time Walk
3 x Null Rod
2 x Crucible of World
4 x Mishra's Factory
4 x Wasteland
1 x Strip Mine
3 x Faerie Conclave
2 x Steam Vents
2 x Flooded Strand
4 x Volcanic Island
1 x Library of Alexandria
2 x Polluted Delta
1 x Black Lotus
1 x Mox Sapphire
2 x Island

Sideboard (15)

4 x Pyrostatic Pillar
3 x Threads of Disloyalty
2 x Pyroblast
2 x Red Elemental Blast
2 x Energy Flux
1 x Rack and Ruin
1 x Shattering Spree


As you can see here and here, I just copied the lists presented, so all credits go to the original deck designers. The only difference was that I couldn’t decide on Rack and Ruin or Shattering Spree. That’s why I chose to run a copy of both of them in the side and see what I would like best. As I had never played this deck before –although I do have some experience with Landstill in Legacy- I didn’t have high hopes and just wanted to have fun. A nice way to learn how to play a deck and to test some things. It performed well for it’s pilots before and it looked good on paper. I knew I was going to make mistakes in the first games but I was ready to except that and to try my best and at least learn something. So let’s see how I did. This report won’t be 100% accurate but the essence will be there. If any of my opponents or bystanders wants to correct me on some of the things I mention here, please do. All of my opponents were very friendly and generally nice people and I had a lot of fun playing all of you!

1st round: Ken Verswijvel playing Empty Gush

Game 1: I waste his first mana sources and drop Null Rod, rendering his artifact mana useless and locking him out of the game. Two Mishra’s and a Faerie Conclave take it home. Yay, first game and I get to do exactly what I read in the reports: waste, lock with Null Rod and kill with lands!

Sideboarding: I don’t really remember anymore but I definitely brought in all the blasts for some of the Chain of Vapors and Fire/Ices. I didn’t realise yet that he was playing Empty Gush so I didn’t bring in the Pyrostatic Pillars.

Game 2: He leads with Pithing Needle and I decide not to Force of Will it. Somehow I was thinking he would name Mishra’s Factory –I was holding one in my opening hand- but I decide that I can wait with the beats until I draw a Chain of Vapor. Of course he names Wasteland… and I have one in my hand. Silly mistake but it will decide a lot in this game because now I cannot attack his mana base as efficiently: I die to 26 Goblins, while all the time I have two Wastelands on the board from the beginning and he’s at four life. This game my inexperience with the deck really showed. I’ve countered a Tinker this game so I’m duly reminded of the Tinker for Colossus plan and so I decide to bring in more Chain of Vapors again.

He had played Time Walk, Ancestral Recall, Scrolled for two Gushes and a Fire/Ice, Mystical Tutored for an Ancient Grudge and still I was in the game! It was after he got an active Library of Alexandria for several turns and eventually his Yawgmoth’s Will that I finally succumbed. All the time my own Library remained unused as I couldn’t get to 7.  He said afterwards he could have killed me earlier but he wanted to be sure to make no mistakes. I should have Force of Willed his Pithing Needle!

Game 3: Thanks to Mox Sapphire, I lead with a first turn Null Rod. I then Ancestral myself but time is called and we end up with a draw where none of us succeed in winning fast enough. Definitely not the Landstill player…

I’m fine with the draw. I know he’s a respectable player –he will go on to almost making top 8- and I have no experience whatsoever with my deck, so the draw is acceptable. I definitely made some mistakes but still pulled out a draw. Once I used my Wasteland too soon so I couldn’t play my Standstill. It remained in my hand for two more turns and I needed to draw some cards to get on even terms because of his Ancestral. Sometime it feels like playing Stax you have to play your threats ‘in a certain order’ to win the game. That order is dictated by the state of the board and the matchup your facing.

2nd round: Dries with Goblins

Dries is a player who plays type II mostly but a friend has lent him a Goblin deck. He also plays in our local club and is a genuinely nice guy who thought me some type II tricks before. I consider Goblins a good choice in the current metagame and thought about playing it myself. I decided against it because it can get overpowered by the ‘fancy decks’ and today proved just that. Several Goblin players were doing well all day but none of them made top 8.

Game 1: Wasteland and Null Rod do their trick. He has two useless Aether Viles and doesn’t draw anything interesting. If he does, I have the counter or the Fire/Ice. I win.

Sideboarding: In this matchup, I don’t have many things to bring in. I bring in 3 Threads of Disloyalty for 3 Misdirections.

Game 2: He plays a Lackey. I‘m able to Stifle the first activation but my Mishra gets wasted and all of a sudden I’m facing a horde of Goblins and my lands keep getting wasted. I die.

Game 3: I get rid of the first turn Lackey and have the game under control. He has played a Chalice for one which doesn’t bother me too much and it prevents him to cast his most dangerous spells like the Lackey I bounced with Chain of Vapour in response to this turn 2 Chalice for one. Further on in the game I make a terrible mistake: I let a Goblin Warchief resolve, thinking I can take it with my Threads of Disloyalty. I take the Warchief with the Threads and… a bystander notifies us that that’s impossible! Correctly so! My oh my, well done. Stupid mistake to make but still I am able to stabilize at 4 life thanks to a Mishra’s Factory. It stops his attacking force and I can Mana Drain his other threats, pumping the mana in my Factory, preventing mana burn. Then he drops Blood Moon and I didn’t see that coming! And I’ve looked at the Goblin decklists just the night before. I feel like the saddest panda on earth losing this game, drawing a Mana Drain the draw step after my opponent played the Blood Moon…

I’ve thrown away a game that I should have won and I’m not happy! Play mistakes cost me. I try to shrug it off because again, I have learned a lot.

I don’t feel like Goblins is a good matchup at all. If  they continue to show up, I think the deck needs some Pyroclasms in the sideboard.

3rd round: Tom Valkeneers with Ichorid.

Talk about things getting worse… The night before the tournament I read in Rob Moreau’s report that he decided it wasn’t worth it to run that many Ichorid hate. He would just take the loss if the matchup did come up. I could agree with his reasoning but after my previous loss against Goblins I felt like an even more sad panda. There was nothing I could do. I held my opponent back as long as I could but there is just no escape. I still wouldn’t sacrifice sideboard slots to this matchup as I think it’s not worth it. Ichorid still is a matchup you will not encounter that often. There were 2 Ichorid decks today I think…

I lose but it helps that I made up my mind beforehand that I should accept this loss if the matchup would come up. This helps me to not get too frustrated and to keep enjoying the tournament.

4th round: François playing a homebrew ‘mill deck’, containing Ambassador Laquatus, Temporal Adept, a blue creature which can counter spells for 2UU and tapping him and Traumatise.

Game 1: It takes some time for me to realise what I’m up against but in the end I take it home thanks to Mishra’s Factories beating, Stifling the activated abilities from his creatures and Chain of Vaporing them with combat damage on the stack for the one that was ‘left behind’.

Sideboarding: I bring in all the Blasts, the Rack and Ruin and the Shattering Spree for some of the Stifles and Chain of Vapors. I didn’t see any fetchlands so it feels like the correct thing to do.

Game 2: He’s never really in the game. At one point he casts a Crucible of Worlds and I answer it with mine. He Traumatises me but that’s actually helping me because now I can bring back Mishra Factories and friends through Crucible of Worlds. As I have a Wasteland in the graveyard, I try to destroy his Crucible and a blue artifact land with Rack and Ruin but he Forces pitching Dissipate, I Pyroblast, he Forces pitching Fact or Fiction. If the Rack and Ruin would have been Shattering Spree I could have targeted the Crucible 3 times as I had 3 Volcanic Islands in play…
I go on to win the game without any problems though. My opponent is a nice guy but his playskill and his deck are just not up to mine.


5th round: Rolf Simons with (unpowered) Control Slaver

This is Rolf’s first Type I tournament but he’s enjoying himself and he actually plays really well! It is clear he understands the game very well and knows what he’s doing. If he keeps on playing, I’m sure he will become a very good player indeed.

As always we wish each other good luck and start the game.

Game 1: Wasteland and Null Rod lock down the game and soon the ‘lands that tap for mana but also fight’ take it home for me. He never got in the game really. If he’d play a land I would waste it and his artifact mana was locked under a Null Rod. Every spell that could have mattered got countered. He Extirpates my Standstills but that doesn’t hurt too much.

Sideboarding: I side in 4 blasts for a Crucible, a Stifle (I didn’t see too many fetchlands the first game), a Fire/Ice and a Chain of Vapor.

Game 2: This is almost a replay of game 1 but even more difficult for him because now I have even more stopping power for his spells. He plays well but he never really is in the game.

I’m playing a lot better now. Even though the matchups I faced were not the hardest to overcome (no disrespect to the players in any way!!!), I feel I deserved the wins I got through tight play and better decisions. It’s getting more serious now and I’m really set on a third victory! I agreed with myself beforehand that I wouldn’t drop and that I would (try to) enjoy the tournament and learn as much as possible playing this very nice deck. The next opponent is a good player and he promises to put up a fight but I feel ready for it!

6th round: Pim Wilgenburg with Empty Gush

Pim is a good player from the Netherlands –always a lot of Dutch people at the Mol tournaments- and he has some very nice black bordered power. He’s a nice guy but he complains a bit too much when he’s not winning. Although I can understand him being annoyed a little bit. Read on…

Game 1: He starts with a lot of gorgeous black bordered moxen and a fetchland but doesn’t use it right away. This gives me the opportunity to Stifle his attempt to use it during his second turn. I do exactly the same to his next attempt to use a fetchland and proceed to waste two more lands during following turns, while also casting Null Rod. I Chain of Vapor his Darksteel Colossus and win the game thanks to the manlands. I realise that it can be frustrating to lose a game through mana problems but that’s exactly what my deck is supposed to do! I played really tightly and I’m getting more and more accustomed to my deck. If you think this is annoying, think about what Stax players do to you! 

Sideboarding: I’m starting to understand my sideboard plans better and bring in 4 Blasts for 4 Fire/Ice and 2 Pyrostatic Pillars for 2 Crucible of Worlds. My reasoning for taking out the Crucibles is that I won’t have much use for them. He has no way to kill my lands, doesn’t play creatures I can/want to block with Mishra’s (and then bring them back) and Gush prevents me from wasting his board.
The confusing thing in my first matchup versus Empty Gifts was that Empty Gush looks a lot like Control Slaver, a deck that is still seeing play here by some competent players and a matchup where I’d want to keep my Fire/Ices in for the Goblin Welders and Gorilla Shamans. As soon as I’ve seen a Gush now, I know he’s on Empty Gush and I confidently side out the Fire/Ices.

Game 2: Stifle, Wasteland, Null Rod and Blasts bring me victory. Almost an exact copy from the first game, only this time I cast a Pyrostatic Pillar which brings him to 2 life as he casts Tinker for Colossus. I have 2 Mishra’s on the board and they bring me victory, as they did before.

So I end up with 3 wins, 1 draw and 2 losses. I could have done better with the draw and I definitely should have done better with the loss against the Goblin deck. I end op 15th, one win away from top 8. I still get two boosters as there was also price support for top 16! A very nice gesture and actually a very good idea to encourage players. Especially because there are always the same faces battling it out for top 8, leaving little for the people who end up 10th and lower. I’ve had the honour of battling for and in top 8 before but it’s nice to be rewarded for your efforts, even if you make just 15th.

The top 8 matches were very interesting to watch and I learn some more interesting plays. As I said before, you will be able to watch top 8 here when they post it.

Another well run and nice tournament to play in, with nice people and competent players. Congratulations to everybody who made top 8 and to everybody who made this such an enjoyable event.

There is just one thing that really annoys me. I can understand that people who make top 2 decide on a split for the prizes, especially if the difference between 1st and 2nd price is something like $150, but it really sucks if they don’t play the match to decide a winner! I’m reading this a lot in tournament reports on this and other sites and it just doesn’t feel right! There are reasons for it, I know, there is always somebody who needs to go home urgently or whatever. But it’s no fun that there is no true winner in the end… I and several others were disappointed they didn’t play it out. So next time, split prizes but play the match to decide a true winner!

Concerning the deck

The deck performed really well and it really feels like it deserves a spot with the best decks out there. I wouldn’t change a thing to the main deck. Even though it feels strange to not play with Brainstorm, it also feels like the correct choice for this deck! The deck is considerably better when it is playing the ‘fancy decks’ and it gets in trouble playing stuff like Goblins or Ichorid. At least in not so experienced hands. I don’t know how to solve this problem otherwise than to make sure that you win your first game and get into the winners bracket from the beginning! You can take one loss but with two; you’re out of top 8 and that’s just not acceptable.

It will be pretty obvious that I didn’t really know how to sideboard between games. How could I, never playing the deck before! Not even during testing…
I still haven’t reached a decision on Rack and Ruin or Shattering Spree. I didn’t play any Stax decks yet and never really had the need to destroy many artifacts at once. I think Shattering Spree might be better but it should be thoroughly tested.
I never really knew what to take out for the 4 Pyrostatic Pillars. I brought 2 in once against the second Empty Gush player in round 6 and they definitely helped me win. Mark Trogdon played 4 Chalice of the Void in the sideboard, which looks like a good idea but I just couldn’t really figure out how to use them best and in what matchups specifically.
If I were to change anything, I would take out 2 Pyrostatic Pillars and the 2 Energy Fluxes for 3 or 4 Pyroclasms but that’s probably just a bad idea… I could also see changing the 3 Threads of Disloyalty for 3 Engineered Explosives. They would take care of so many things like Oath of Druids, Goblin and Zombie tokens, Pithing Needles, Quirion Dryad, Fastbond, Moxen, Welders, … At least when you don’t have a Null Rod out and this is just such a powerful play for this deck! Hmm…

It’s clear that I need to play this deck a lot more to decide on the correct strategies but in the mean time I would appreciate some feedback from more experienced players! Especially concerning sideboard strategies. If Rob Moreau (Sextiger), Mark Trogdon or anybody else of their standard would leave some good advice, it would be much appreciated!

Although no account of a great victory, I hope it was an interesting read! Thanks in advance for your feedback or comments.

Robrecht

[ketchupgun]

I had a similar day yesterday at Untouchables in Mississauga, Canada!

Though I think your deck is UR, not UG landstill 

I too got rolled to Vial Goblins and Ichorid. I was talking to shockwave and as he puts it, just take the auto-loss vs Ichorid. You'd have to butcher your SB entirely to help that match, but it isn't worth it.

I learned a BA-AD play error yesterday too. Playing vs Grim Long. I had Standstill on the board and he cast Dark Ritual...I instinctively FoW it...not sac'ing Standstill first.. this caused my opponent to draw 3 cards. NOTE TO SELF: don't do that again! if I have standstill in play I may just keep my hand facedown to remind myself.

as for the sideboard:
Rack n Ruin over Shattering Spree. defintely.
CotV at 1 helps vs the combo match. between having a null rod, a cotv @ 0 and cotv @1 .. they won't be playing any Rituals, moxes or tapping moxes in play for mana.
I tried some Nevynyrral's disk in the SB...easy to cast off drain mana, and can clear the board vs fish, goblins and stax...but I never got to use it...theory is it should work though

btw..Lorwyn just came out with a SWEET replacement for Threads of Disloyalty!

that's my mid-ranged (3 wins 3 losses) 2 cents! ;D

[LotusHead]

To make links look nicer, just "quote" this reply, and note how the text is set up on this link: NorCal Vintage Site

[Sextiger]

Ah cool, I get mentioned
I got a few points to talk about

1. I still think Shattering Spree is better than Rack and Ruin for this deck.  You have a lot of red sources so its not that hard to get a 3+ spree going.  Also, theres quite a few times where they have early mana denial or Sphere of Resistance out and there is that damn Crucible sitting across the board, Spree shines when you can't get to that 3/4 mana threshold

2. The best and only way to beat Ichorid is not get in the losers bracket, which sadly you got yourself into.  Ichorid has nowhere near the shine as it did a few months ago and the players usually find themselves in the losers bracket, win your first few matches and you won't have to worry about this. 

3.  Goblins- Goblins should be a matchup in landstills favor, but random lackey starts can beat any deck.  One difference between our decks is that I run Flametongue Kavu, which can be sided in against pretty much any deck with creatures.  I really don't like Threads at this moment, it is really only good against Dryads, everything else can be contained with your other spells. 

4.  The new Lorwyn Creature Control Magic should probably be in the sideboard and possibly tested in the maindeck, a never dead control magic is great in my books. 

5. With more and more gush decks leaning to the combo route with Dark Rituals, Chalice should probably replace the Pillars.  The Pillars have proven to be pretty decent against a variety of decks but they have never been that great against Ritual decks.  Fewer people are using Dryads and the Pillars are losing their shine. 


I think the deck will still be very good in the upcoming months, Stax is gonna be played heavily and I have always thought Landstill has had a good matchup.  Also, a variety of weird creatures decks will guarantee to come out with the new Sphere and Gaddoc, landstill usually slaps down aggro decks. 

[Dante]

You won't be able to make your Ichorid matchup better (i.e. significantly positive) without bastardizing your sideboard/deck to the point where your other matchups are now unfavorable.

[LotusHead]

Nonsense. His sideboard had zero cards vs Ichorid to start with.

Tormod's Crypt x4 and Leyline of the Void x4 would help in that matchup, plus they are good versus basically everything but Goblins and Fish.

Tinker/Platinum Angel is another option.

[Odd mutation]

Hi,

Thanks for the replies. It's much appreciated.

@ketchupgun: I fixed the title! Stupid oversight... Thanks for noticing.

I'm not really sure about your 'play mistake'. Doesn't Standstill automatically trigger when a player plays a spell? I would think that when he plays the Dark Ritual, the Standstill trigger automatically goes on the stack. Can anybody confirm or deny this? It doesn't happen to me though because I always want to draw the cards first... 

I understand the reasons why Chalice of te Void would be good against combo. But against them I usualy bring in the Blasts and the Stifles and Chain of Vapors are good too. This makes that I'm reluctant to play Chalice for 1 and Null Rod Turns off the moxen so I don't need Chalice for 0. With what I bring in and what's in the main deck, I felt like it was enough to battle these matchups. But I will test it more thoroughly.

I thought about Sower of Temptation as welll. I didn't run it because it's a creature and can get removed more easily then an enchantment and it costs 4 mana, 2 of which are blue.  Speed is of the essence! Even with your mana denial. I was doing very well with Landstill in Legacy until Goblins came around. 4 mana just isn't enough and they can kill the Sower of temptation easily. Against Goblins you need a sweeper to kill the first horde, then you stabalize with Mishra's. Your opponent has no choice but to overcommit and then you clear the board with a second sweeper. The game is yours afterwards. I think I would play Control Magic before the Sower of Temptation, just because it's more difficult to remove. But I'd probably play none of both.

I considered running Nevinnyrral's Disk but again, it's 4 mana, takes a turn to use and there is Null Rod. I never really needed it anyway except to clear the board from Goblins but Pyroclasm does that better and faster. I'm not saying I'm convinced Pyroclasm should be in the board but it's definitely on my mind.
I would play Engineered explosives or even Powder Kegg before Disk.

@Lotushead: Thanks for clearing that up! I always forget how to do that. Now I have my own thread to look back to if I forget again. I fixed the report, it looks better now.

It really is unacceptabel to adjust your sideboard in such a way, just to battle a matchup you'll face maybe once in a tournement. You need the slots in the sideboard for the other matchups, where you actually have a chance to beat your opponent... Facing Ichorid is just bad luck.
Leyline and Crypt do have their uses in other matchups, that's true, but they are not good enough compared to the other options in the sideboard. Blasts, Stifle, the many counters and Chain of Vapor felt like enough yesterday, playing against Empty Gifts and consorts. I'll have to test more but any suggestions are always welcome of course.

Tinker/Platinum is not really an option as you lack the search to get either in your hand. You have no search at all, just 4 Standstills and 1 Ancestral. I know you probably realize this yourself but Tinker Platz will come too late.

@Sextiger: That's exactly what I said in my report: don't get in the losers bracket and you'll probably be safe from Ichorid and maybe even Goblins!

How do you play against Goblins? My opponent did indeed have the Lackey every game. Still I would have been able to pull it out, if I just wouldn't have made that play mistake... Do you think the Flametongue Kavu makes that much of a difference, even in this matchup? I thought it was there especially against Bomberman, with some use in the GAT matchup. Is it really useful in other matchups besides the Bomberman matchup?

@Dante: as I said in my report: Ichorid is just bad luck! 

@everybody: how would you sideboard with this deck? Consider at least the following matchups (I'll post my own suggestions later, I'm at work now):

• Control Slaver
• Empty Gush
• Any form of Tendrils combo
• Flash
• Goblins
• GAT

I'm confident that there need to be at least 4 blasts in the sideboard and I think 3 Shattering Spree is the correct way to go. The only thing that still bothers me is that versus Stax, you'll regularly fetch your basic lands and thus you will not have that many mountains laying around for a multiple Shattering Spree. Energy Flux doesn't look so bad considering this, although then the opponent decides what stays and what not... More testing!

Thanks for the replies! It's much appreciated.

Robrecht

[Shock Wave]

You won't be able to make your Ichorid matchup better (i.e. significantly positive) without bastardizing your sideboard/deck to the point where your other matchups are now unfavorable.

Nonsense. His sideboard had zero cards vs Ichorid to start with.

Tormod's Crypt x4 and Leyline of the Void x4 would help in that matchup, plus they are good versus basically everything but Goblins and Fish.

Tinker/Platinum Angel is another option.

Axiom: Landstill cannot make modifications to its maindeck and sideboard for the purpose of increasing the Ichorid matchup up to a winnable percentage without significantly worsening currently favourable matchups.

Argument: No, I can take 8 cards out of the sideboard and add 4 Tormod's Crypt and 4 Leyline of the Void to achieve this goal.

That's a very strong statement. Considering that this a very raw, rudimentary strategy, I'm curious as to why you think that players experienced with this deck might have overlooked it. Have you considered the impact of modifying the sideboard by 8 cards? I don't think so, but assuming that you have, can you please elaborate on what your sideboard would look like, and why? Some insightful details to include would be:

- how the current sideboard would change
- how you would utilize your sideboard against the field
- how you expect that your changes would affect your matchups

You've also suggested Tinker/Angel as an "option". Well, I can't really dispute that, considering that any card that you can legally cast with this deck is technically an option. Without specifiying why and how this option is advantageous, it is no more to the point than to suggest Rime Dryad as an option. Again, details to include when making a suggestion:

- Why is this a good option?
- Are you suggesting this as a maindeck option, or a sideboard option?
- What changes are you making to the maindeck/sideboard in order to make room for the change(s)?
- What are the implications to matchups as a result of making the change(s)?

Robrecht, I'm very impressed by the presentation and tone of your report. You seem to carry the attitude of a potentially high calibre player and your willingness to accept your shortcomings in gameplay clearly illustrates this.

Right now I felt like I needed something more… ‘challenging’.

Landstill will certainly give you the challenge you're looking for. There is a very fine line between winning and losing with this archetype. Almost every matchup is 50/50, except for Ichorid (about 5/95) and Goblins (appx. 35/65). The deck is very unforgiving and one mistake can cost your spot in the T8, so you always have to bring your best game. I expect that playing this deck will be very enjoyable for you.

I knew I was going to make mistakes in the first games but I was ready to except that and to try my best and at least learn something.

Here's the first mark of a good player. Accept that you're going to make mistakes. When you lose, look first for mistakes, instead of attributing the loss to your lucky opponent or how awful your deck is. I've watched awful players rip Landstill and many other decks to shreds instead of scrutinizing their own game play in search of answers. You started off in the right direction!

I’m fine with the draw. I know he’s a respectable player –he will go on to almost making top 8- and I have no experience whatsoever with my deck, so the draw is acceptable. I definitely made some mistakes but still pulled out a draw. Once I used my Wasteland too soon so I couldn’t play my Standstill. It remained in my hand for two more turns and I needed to draw some cards to get on even terms because of his Ancestral.

Excellent! Not only did you look for mistakes, you found them. Sometimes it is so difficult to isolate exactly where you went wrong that you end up failing to walk away with a learning experience from having lost a game/match. It is a ritual of mine to write down as many notes as possible during (and especially immediately after a match) so I can recreate the flow of the game and take the time to weigh as many options as possible. 8 months ago, I lost a close top 8 match to a Workshop Aggro deck piloted by a high calibre local vintage player. I thought I played a great match and was obviously disappointed with the result. I mused over the match for several days, but couldn't figure out where I had gone wrong. It was almost four days later when during some testing, I was able to visually recreate a sequence of turns where I made decisions that while seemingly innocuous individually, resulted in the loss of the third game when in combination. Keep digging for your errors as it will certainly pay dividends towards ameliorating your gameplay.

I’ve thrown away a game that I should have won and I’m not happy! Play mistakes cost me. I try to shrug it off because again, I have learned a lot. I don’t feel like Goblins is a good matchup at all. If  they continue to show up, I think the deck needs some Pyroclasms in the sideboard.

Goblins is certainly not a good matchup, but it is not unwinnable. I'll discuss how to make this matchup "better" in a few moments.

I lose but it helps that I made up my mind beforehand that I should accept this loss if the matchup would come up. This helps me to not get too frustrated and to keep enjoying the tournament.

This is important. You had devised a plan before the tournament, and this loss was consistent with that plan. You maintained your focus and were resolute in giving yourself the best chance possible to win and/or learn, regardless of the outcome of your matches.

Game 1: He starts with a lot of gorgeous black bordered moxen and a fetchland but doesn’t use it right away. This gives me the opportunity to Stifle his attempt to use it during his second turn. I do exactly the same to his next attempt to use a fetchland and proceed to waste two more lands during following turns, while also casting Null Rod. I Chain of Vapor his Darksteel Colossus and win the game thanks to the manlands. I realise that it can be frustrating to lose a game through mana problems but that’s exactly what my deck is supposed to do! I played really tightly and I’m getting more and more accustomed to my deck. If you think this is annoying, think about what Stax players do to you!

It's very interesting that you mention this exchange, as it is not trivial. I've played against many an opponent in the past 6 years that has complained about being "mana screwed" after I lock them. However, they were never mana screwed in the sense that they did not draw any mana. This is very different from having the mana and then being unable to utilize it to execute a winning gameplan. If you have mana and cannot use it to win before it is neutralized, this has nothing to do with "mana screw". You will hear weaker players make these sorts of statement. Never attempt to console them or give them information by advising them that mana denial is Landstill's function. If your opponent's bitterness is causing them to confuse the function of their opponent's deck with bad luck, let their tilt continue.

So I end up with 3 wins, 1 draw and 2 losses. I could have done better with the draw and I definitely should have done better with the loss against the Goblin deck. I end op 15th, one win away from top 8. I still get two boosters as there was also price support for top 16! A very nice gesture and actually a very good idea to encourage players. Especially because there are always the same faces battling it out for top 8, leaving little for the people who end up 10th and lower. I’ve had the honour of battling for and in top 8 before but it’s nice to be rewarded for your efforts, even if you make just 15th.

That's a very respectable result for a first-time vintage Landstill player. I can tell by your approach and attitude that you will enjoy fine results with this and other archetypes.

The deck performed really well and it really feels like it deserves a spot with the best decks out there. I wouldn’t change a thing to the main deck. Even though it feels strange to not play with Brainstorm, it also feels like the correct choice for this deck! The deck is considerably better when it is playing the ‘fancy decks’ and it gets in trouble playing stuff like Goblins or Ichorid. At least in not so experienced hands. I don’t know how to solve this problem otherwise than to make sure that you win your first game and get into the winners bracket from the beginning! You can take one loss but with two; you’re out of top 8 and that’s just not acceptable.

It's especially impressive that you've commented on some of the intricacies of this deck (like not running Brainstorm) despite having little experience. You are certainly right; Brainstorm is a fine card in vintage, but it absolutely does not belong in Landstill. You are also spot on in your guess of how to "beat" Ichorid and Goblins: Win Round 1! These decks are generally so weak and so underplayed that you shouldn't dedicate any space to them. If they are prevalent in your metagame, definitely play a different deck.

It's clear that I need to play this deck a lot more to decide on the correct strategies but in the mean time I would appreciate some feedback from more experienced players! Especially concerning sideboard strategies. If Rob Moreau (Sextiger), Mark Trogdon or anybody else of their standard would leave some good advice, it would be much appreciated! Although no account of a great victory, I hope it was an interesting read! Thanks in advance for your feedback or comments.

Thank you for the interesting, insightful, and well written report. I generally dislike advising players on how to play this deck, but you definitely have put forth a solid effort and this report deserves acknowledging.

I still haven’t reached a decision on Rack and Ruin or Shattering Spree. I didn’t play any Stax decks yet and never really had the need to destroy many artifacts at once. I think Shattering Spree might be better but it should be thoroughly tested.

I dislike Shattering Spree because I need an extra red source for each additional copy. That is not good against Stax. Even with all the red sources, you never want to depend on a double-coloured spell against any mana-denial deck. Rack and Ruin is certainly better.

I never really knew what to take out for the 4 Pyrostatic Pillars. I brought 2 in once against the second Empty Gush player in round 6 and they definitely helped me win. Mark Trogdon played 4 Chalice of the Void in the sideboard, which looks like a good idea but I just couldn’t really figure out how to use them best and in what matchups specifically.

Well, I'll give you a clue here. Chalice of the Void is an integral part of the sideboard and should never be cut. It's up to you to determine how to use them properly. That's a very challenging task that I'm sure you'll enjoy.

If I were to change anything, I would take out 2 Pyrostatic Pillars and the 2 Energy Fluxes for 3 or 4 Pyroclasms but that’s probably just a bad idea… I could also see changing the 3 Threads of Disloyalty for 3 Engineered Explosives. They would take care of so many things like Oath of Druids, Goblin and Zombie tokens, Pithing Needles, Quirion Dryad, Fastbond, Moxen, Welders, … At least when you don’t have a Null Rod out and this is just such a powerful play for this deck!

Pyroclasm is not a good idea, and you even said so yourself!  . Engineered Explosives are also rather terrible, as you never want to have to choose between Null Rod and your removal.

Overall, I'm very impressed that instead of adding to the count of awful Landstill threads that TMD has had to endure, you've taken the time to play the deck, get a feel for it, and constructively post your results for review and criticism. I hope the feedback you get is helpful!

[punki]

Well sorry Tim and I didn't play it out in the finals, but the guy who gave me a ride to the tournament was hungry and already waiting for me for almost 2 hours and we still had a good drive home ahead of us. Combine that with an also hungry judge who wanted to go home, i just felt i had to split and leave.

About people complaining about coming a few mana short and losing to mana denial: I had to hear that al day long. I just replied: that's why i play 9 spheres, 4 wastelands, a strip mine and 3 magus of the moon. 

[ketchupgun]

Goblins is certainly not a good matchup, but it is not unwinnable. I'll discuss how to make this matchup "better" in a few moments.

Thanks for the post shockwave. I learned a lot from it. Though, did I miss the part about improving the goblin matchup?

I would think the Goblins matchup strategy is that since they don't run a draw engine, you just have to make them run out of gas before they control the board (?)

I'm not really sure about your 'play mistake'. Doesn't Standstill automatically trigger when a player plays a spell? I would think that when he plays the Dark Ritual, the Standstill trigger automatically goes on the stack. Can anybody confirm or deny this?

I thought the same, until my opponent called for a judge ruling. Then after talking to shockwave and goobafish, they both confirmed that's how that error resolves.

I personally am going to be playing this deck with a bit more dedication in the upcoming months. I'm generally too flighty of a person and all to eager to switch decks...but I'm making a promise to myself to stick with this one. So expect to see me on more threads re: Landstill

[The Atog Lord]

Shockwave's points are worth re-reading. The ability to see how you lost a game of Magic is a necessary step in becoming better at this game. OddMutation, being able to do so will carry you far.

Years ago, when I was starting at Brown, I met a fellow named Jason Miller. I've lost contact with him, but he taught me a lot about this game. He was good at the game, but what was really striking about him was his attitude. Whenever he lost a game, whether in a tournament or in a casual draft, he would pause and start listing "mistakes" he made during the game.

At first, when he went over his "mistakes" and I saw that his opponent out-drew him, I tried to tell him that he had played well, and that he was just outdrawn. It is a part of the game, after all. However, in time I realized that Jason wasn't just being tough on himself. He was mining past games for chances to improve his own play.

Jason examining his own games for mistakes rubbed off on me. I started noticing my mistakes more and more -- which lead to fewer mistakes. In fact, Smmenen commented once that I tend to ruminate a lot over my lost matches. I suppose that I do -- but only because I don't want to make the same mistake twice.

For example, in the finals of Waterbury, I lost to Outlaw's SliverFlash deck. Outlaw had great draws, and there was no way I could have played my hand to beat him. However, that didn't stop me from sitting there and spending a while thinking about how I could have won the match. The answer that I came to was that having more Leylines in my sideboard would have been what I needed. And so, I've been running more than four Leylines ever since.

[Odd mutation]

Hi,

@Shock Wave: Thank you for your reaction and the kind words.

From my limited experience, you're absolutely right! This is an unforgiving deck but I consider that a plus. It is a demanding deck but very rewarding if you can bring home a victory. You HAVE to study your plays more carefully if you want to be succesful with this deck. This demands an open mind and willingness to look at your plays in greater detail. But the advantages are that you actually learn a lot and become a better player, not just with this deck. It can be a humbling experience or one that gives you an extra warm feeling of accomplishment.

I'm no stranger to Magic, I've been playing the game for almost 10 years now and had a few top 8's before (2nd, 3rd, ...). Vintage is new to me in the way that I acquired power for just over a year (I never liked proxies so i didn't play 'real Vintage' before). It was thanks to a friend of mine, who actually introduced me to Magic, that I was able to become better and better. He would win a lot -to the point it got frustrating... - but when I was playing against other people, I noticed my gamplay was improving faster then theirs. When my friend beat me, I would ask him what he thought I did wrong or whatever brought him victory. Sometimes it was luck or a good bluff but more often it was an actual play mistake from my part. As I got better, it got more challenging for him and we both were learning a lot from each other. I'm grateful for all the great times we had playing cards and improving our level of play! What I'm trying to say is that you have to be able to look at your own game play and analyze it, the good and the bad.

You're right, it's not always easy to spot mistakes and that's why this deck feels so great: you need to get ahead one step at a time. You don't have (obvious) 'broken plays' but if you look back at a game and you ask yourself why you lost, or won for that matter, you'll see that it was a series of small events/decisions that brought victory. Just as you said in your example. This knowledge helps you when playing with 'fancy decks' as well because the small plays are easily overshadowed by the many bombs you play. You get so used to 'power plays' that you forget they are power plays and you become sloppy with the 'smaller' plays. As an obvious example: you really appreciate the power of a Mox a lot better when you also play non Vintage formats.

It also takes some confidence playing this deck: it takes some time for you to finish the game with manlands. That means there is a large window of opportunity for your opponent to get back into the game. Again, Stax players will know what I mean... "It's not over until it's over," and you have to keep on playing tightly to not give away victory in the end. Just look at my report against the Goblin player. I had the game under control, yet a silly mistake gave away not only the game but also a place in top 8 in the end!

Indeed, people complain they're mana screwed, even while you notice them drawing 4 or 5 lands in a row! If not for the purpose of the Landstill deck, they would have been complaining they were mana flooded! I don't care about complaining opponents any more -well I try to not let it get to me- and I just focus on my own play. At least, when they're complaining, you know you're doing at least something right!

I do hope to get better with this deck. I will certainly test it more and try to figure out how to sideboard better. I will put the Chalices in the sideboard and try and figure out how to use them best.
The next tournement I attend with this deck will be a true challenge. Now that I understand the deck a little better, (naturally) I will expect to do better. It will be a challenge to keep the same open mind and let realistic expectations guide me.

Thank you for your feedback, it is much appreciated and encourages me to try and get better with this impressive deck!

@punki: Hi Peter! Welcome to The Mana Drain and good to see you here! 

Well, I didn't want to sound too harsh. I was just a little bit disappointed but I completely understand the reasons why you had to leave. I'm glad the people from Hasselt were there once more and that you did so well. Congratulations with your second place with Aggro Stax (if that is the correct name), great finish! Is there a report coming???

@ketchupgun: I too was changing decklists too frequently, never truly 'mastering' any of them. For now, this deck definitely is a very rewarding deck and I'll stick to this and try to get better with it. If I'm not winning with it, at least it's an opportunity to become a better player. I hope I didn't reach my best with it yet, there is still a distance to cover!

Concerning the 'Standstill incident', I'm sorry but I didn't understand which play is the correct one. In your example, does your opponent get to draw the cards?

@The Atog Lord: while I was typing my (long) reply, yours appeared. My post will sound like a repeat... Thank you for your feedback as well!

Robrecht.

[ketchupgun]

Concerning the 'Standstill incident', I'm sorry but I didn't understand which play is the correct one. In your example, does your opponent get to draw the cards?

Yes, he drew the 3 cards, not me! (it has something to do with the "if you do" clause on Standstill...because it doesn't automatically sacrifice itself..
So what happened was I had Standstill on the board, he played Dark Ritual, I FoW'd it before sac'ing Standstill to draw 3 cards...so *my* FoW triggered Standstill and *he* drew the 3 cards. This is what lost me the game (my opponent even admitted this).
So in short...if you have standstill in play.. DON'T FORGET that YOU HAVE STANDSTILL IN PLAY

In this match though...I got completely outplayed. He was playing GrimLong (I believe that's what it was..a tendrils storm deck using Grim Tutor)..he combo'd off in g1...fine...so g2 I side in the 4 CoTV...and I figure I'd side out my 4 bounce spells. He won the second game Tinker-DSC! I didn't see that coming! And I had no bounce to save myself from it.

Is that a common SB strategy for combo players? Because I thought I had sideboarded correctly.

edit: Rereading the thread I just figured one thing out: vs combo, the correct SB Strategy would be:
+4 CotV
+3 REB
- 4 Fire//Ice
- 1 CoW (my list only runs 1)
- 1 Timewalk(?)
- 1 (Chain of Vapour?)

does that make sense?


Still learning,

--
Ketchupgun

[Eddie]

The top 8 matches were very interesting to watch and I learn some more interesting plays. As I said before, you will be able to watch top 8 here when they post it.

Glad I could teach you something, even if I lost in T8 . Just kidding, you know my first game sucked big time. T8 is online. Sad I never got a chance to see you play this deck. It looks very interesting to say the least.

About people complaining about coming a few mana short and losing to mana denial: I had to hear that al day long.

Same here. I play strip, 3 waste, 4 stifle and trickbind. Part of the strategy is the mana denial plan against certain decks (GAT, Empty Gush, ...). And they still complain you get lucky they didn't draw another mana source to execute their play and all of their topdecks sucked. Trust me, I will know if my opponents topdecks suck. Only 1 of my opponents had reasons to complain in a game.

[oAFLORD]

Concerning the 'Standstill incident', I'm sorry but I didn't understand which play is the correct one. In your example, does your opponent get to draw the cards?

Yes, he drew the 3 cards, not me! (it has something to do with the "if you do" clause on Standstill...because it doesn't automatically sacrifice itself..
So what happened was I had Standstill on the board, he played Dark Ritual, I FoW'd it before sac'ing Standstill to draw 3 cards...so *my* FoW triggered Standstill and *he* drew the 3 cards. This is what lost me the game (my opponent even admitted this).
So in short...if you have standstill in play.. DON'T FORGET that YOU HAVE STANDSTILL IN PLAY

In this match though...I got completely outplayed. He was playing GrimLong (I believe that's what it was..a tendrils storm deck using Grim Tutor)..he combo'd off in g1...fine...so g2 I side in the 4 CoTV...and I figure I'd side out my 4 bounce spells. He won the second game Tinker-DSC! I didn't see that coming! And I had no bounce to save myself from it.

Is that a common SB strategy for combo players? Because I thought I had sideboarded correctly.

edit: Rereading the thread I just figured one thing out: vs combo, the correct SB Strategy would be:
+4 CotV
+3 REB
- 4 Fire//Ice
- 1 CoW (my list only runs 1)
- 1 Timewalk(?)
- 1 (Chain of Vapour?)

does that make sense?


Still learning,

--
Ketchupgun

Ketchup: Do you know if John or someone else will post results from the Untouchables tourney this past weekend?  I do not mean to threadjack, but I am unable to PM for some reason.  I think it is because I have not posted enough as of yet.  Thanks!

oAF

[Odd mutation]

Hi,

Very interesting to see that UR Landstill got played at the invitational by Guillaume Wafo-Tapa.

It would be very interesting to hear why he chose this deck and how his matchups turned out.

Robrecht.

[Dante]

To further elaborate on Rich's detailed post regarding sideboards, (using Rich's gencon sideboard below as a base)

5 Reb
3 Rack n Ruin
3 Threads of Disloyalty
4 Chalice

My experience with a sideboard of 7-8 Ichorid hate cards (say Leyline x 4 and Pithing Needle x 3 (naming Bazaar)) vs Ichorid (in a deck with FoW for protection too) is that Ichorid can break through 1-2 disruption spells like this, even through counter backup and chug along, against a deck that doesn't have a fast clock (Urbana Fish).  They are bringing in artifact and enchantment hate.

My experience piloting a deck with a slow clock shows that an early graveyard hate card is merely a stall (even with counter backup) and that for decks with slow clocks, you really need to be able to CAST graveyard hate card 2 and 3 as a follow-up.  With no black, that makes Leyline of the Void an opening-hand one-shot attempt and then relying on some T. Crypts for the second wave.  An opening hand leyline of the void isn't enough.  Leyline of Singularity might be a good choice since you can cast #2-4, but that's much narrower in its scope and less strong against the field.

Also, I feel the maindeck Fire/Ice (for welder) + sideboard artifact hate is stronger vs workshop aggro (which look to be popular with Thorn coming in) than a graveyard hate scenario (you don't have too many slots you want to side out there), which reduces the number of matches you'd side in your graveyard hate.

Against Gush/Blue-based decks, I feel the REBs are a stronger option than anything including Leyline.

Against traditional Storm combo, they'll have the ability to get bounce, so I feel attacking their spells preemptively with Chalice is stronger than the graveyard with Leyline.  Null Rod is a strong card here, so T. Crypt wouldn't help.

That's all the time I have to post, but I think that covers why I don't think LotV and T. Crypt are not good choices overall.

[Shock Wave]

Hi,

Very interesting to see that UR Landstill got played at the invitational by Guillaume Wafo-Tapa.

It would be very interesting to hear why he chose this deck and how his matchups turned out.

Robrecht.

He made some very peculiar changes to the deck:

- Time Walk
- Mox Sapphire
- 2 Mana Drain

+ Disrupt
+ Polluted Delta
+ 2 Counterspell

Playing with Counterspell instead of Drain is a very difficult choice to defend. There's really no good reason to do it. I would love to hear about Guillaume's experiences with the deck, especially considering it was a highly favourable field for him.

[Dante]

Rich, those changes look to be card availability issues to me - I assume the Invitational did not allow proxies and I would guess he couldn't get a hold of those cards.

[Shock Wave]

Rich, those changes look to be card availability issues to me - I assume the Invitational did not allow proxies and I would guess he couldn't get a hold of those cards.

That makes a lot of sense. In any case, I didn't mean to hijack this thread. Perhaps a separate thread can be opened to discuss Guillaume's experience.

[Smmenen]

Hi,

Very interesting to see that UR Landstill got played at the invitational by Guillaume Wafo-Tapa.

It would be very interesting to hear why he chose this deck and how his matchups turned out.

Robrecht.

He made some very peculiar changes to the deck:

- Time Walk
- Mox Sapphire
- 2 Mana Drain

+ Disrupt
+ Polluted Delta
+ 2 Counterspell

Playing with Counterspell instead of Drain is a very difficult choice to defend. There's really no good reason to do it. I would love to hear about Guillaume's experiences with the deck, especially considering it was a highly favourable field for him.

Guillaume was asking for 2 Mana Drains the night before. I'm pretty sure it wasn't a design choice. 

[LotusHead]

Nonsense. His sideboard had zero cards vs Ichorid to start with.

Tormod's Crypt x4 and Leyline of the Void x4 would help in that matchup, plus they are good versus basically everything but Goblins and Fish.

Tinker/Platinum Angel is another option.

Axiom: Landstill cannot make modifications to its maindeck and sideboard for the purpose of increasing the Ichorid matchup up to a winnable percentage without significantly worsening currently favourable matchups.

Argument: No, I can take 8 cards out of the sideboard and add 4 Tormod's Crypt and 4 Leyline of the Void to achieve this goal.

That's a very strong statement.

I should have been more clear. 

I meant either 4 Tormod's Crypts, OR 4 Leylines (or Tinker Platz), instead of 0 cards vs Ichorid.  The Crypts or Leylines are also usefull against other decks (like Flash or Shops)

My deck (Shop Aggro) has close to the same strategy vs Ichorid as his (hope I don't face it).

[Dante]

I should have been more clear. 

I meant either 4 Tormod's Crypts, OR 4 Leylines (or Tinker Platz), instead of 0 cards vs Ichorid.  The Crypts or Leylines are also usefull against other decks (like Flash or Shops)

My deck (Shop Aggro) has close to the same strategy vs Ichorid as his (hope I don't face it).

Those cards are strong in other matchups, but if you look at the whole overall strategy vs flash or shops, you have better options I think - killing the welder with Fire/Ice does a similar function (stops artifact graveyard recursion, although not crucible recursion) and if you don't have it in your opening hand, you can actually cast it later in the game (and you will have a 'later in the game' with the deck).  So in combination with your own mana denial, welder killing, crucibles of your own, counters, and Rack and Ruin, that's a pretty strong anti-shop package (esp considering you want to leave null rod in).

Chalice + reb is a strong package against Flash (remember chalice shuts down all their pacts, which is half their counter base +  the green pacts) given your maindeck counters, stifles, and fire/ice (if you can buy a few turns to lay blockers, you're golden unless they side in Winged Sliver).  Stifle + Rebs + Chalice for 0 gives you a ton of low-cost disruption they will have to fight through.

[ketchupgun]

Chalice + reb is a strong package against Flash (remember chalice shuts down all their pacts, which is half their counter base +  the green pacts) given your maindeck counters, stifles, and fire/ice (if you can buy a few turns to lay blockers, you're golden unless they side in Winged Sliver).  Stifle + Rebs + Chalice for 0 gives you a ton of low-cost disruption they will have to fight through.

that is solid Dante. I'm still learning much here..and I was curious what you side out in this matchup? the bounces? The fire/ice? CoW for sure.
When do you know to side out things like Lotus and Timewalk?

thx in advance. Posters on this site have really taught me alot.

[islanderboi10]

So, I have been reading this thread and following along. 
I am considering playing this deck in the near future, due to the meta shift.  I was wondering, what do you think about this deck in the 9-13 Sphere metagame??

[Shock Wave]

So, I have been reading this thread and following along. 
I am considering playing this deck in the near future, due to the meta shift.  I was wondering, what do you think about this deck in the 9-13 Sphere metagame??

This deck pretty much crushes Stax, in the majority of its variations. It is particularly strong against the 9s versions.

[Dante]

Chalice + reb is a strong package against Flash (remember chalice shuts down all their pacts, which is half their counter base +  the green pacts) given your maindeck counters, stifles, and fire/ice (if you can buy a few turns to lay blockers, you're golden unless they side in Winged Sliver).  Stifle + Rebs + Chalice for 0 gives you a ton of low-cost disruption they will have to fight through.

that is solid Dante. I'm still learning much here..and I was curious what you side out in this matchup? the bounces? The fire/ice? CoW for sure.
When do you know to side out things like Lotus and Timewalk?

thx in advance. Posters on this site have really taught me alot.

Never side out Lotus.  The two single cards that seeing it in your opening hand have the highest correlation to winning are Black Lotus and Ancestral Recall.

I would swap the 4 null rods for 4 chalice and -1 crucible, -1 land, -2 bounce, -2 ?? (Fire/Ice) for the 5 red blasts.  whether you side out bounce vs fire/ice really depends on whether you think they'll side in Tarmogoyf or something like that.  If you're really sure they'll bring in Tarmo, you could side in Threads.  Remember that you're the control deck and need to keep mana open for defensive spells. 

I've found vs flash if you have the option of leaving mana open for reb, drain, stifle, etc vs playing standstill or attacking with man lands, ALWAYS keep the mana open or you'll find yourself poisoned unexpectedly.  Remember that once you start laying blockers, YOU have inevitability against Flash unless they have some tech like Winged Sliver - they can't deal with a clogged up board and 1 Flying land can/will go the distance.

[islanderboi10]

OK and also one more thing.
My meta had like 4 goblin decks in it last tournament, but it does have Gat.  Most of the Gat players now play GushTinker, so would cutting the Threads of Disloyalty for Pyroclasms be good?


Thanks, I think I pretty much made my mind up.

[Odd mutation]

Hi,

I'd like to thank everybody for their constructive and insightful posts. I'd consider it an honour if deck discussion would continue here but if moderators think it is best to move the discussion to a thread of it's own somewhere else, feel free to open up a thread. I'd be happy if there would be a link to this report, because some very interesting arguments have allready been made here.

In the mean time, decklists have allready been posted on the website of the club! You'll find them here.

It turns out that we were with 39 people last sunday.

Thanks again,

Robrecht.

[islanderboi10]

Hi,

I'd like to thank everybody for their constructive and insightful posts. I'd consider it an honour if deck discussion would continue here but if moderators think it is best to move the discussion to a thread of it's own somewhere else, feel free to open up a thread. I'd be happy if there would be a link to this report, because some very interesting arguments have allready been made here.

In the mean time, decklists have allready been posted on the website of the club! You'll find them here.

It turns out that we were with 39 people last sunday.

Thanks again,

Robrecht.

I did open a Ur Landstill thread discussion a little while back, but not many people posted in it.  But, if people were to post in it, we could carry on the discussion there.