Dawn of the Dead

[elgoff]

mind censor is neat, but for three mana he is a not worth it. He's mediocre vs. aggro, and he still doesn't shut gat down. If you're going to kill gat, you need to focus on killing its win conditions, not its protection. 4x Swords and superior aggro beat gat. Duress and seize shut down its protection.
I think that teeg and censor are about even in games versus gat. Censor isnt a bounce lightning rod like teeg is, so I choose to play him (among other reasons.)
With stax, long, and empty gifts seeing a lot of play, i think teeg is fine.

But in the end, ill have to agree with my team leader. Otherwise, I'm stuck on de-sleeving duty for a month....

Right now, after a couple of days of testing...

Gaddock Teeg > Aven Mindscensor

In most match up tested (GAT, Empty Gush, Red Stack, Mono Brown Stack, Bomberman, Oath, Flash, Fish variants, Long variants, FCG, Suicide) Teeg was superior/better!

"Noncreature spells with X Mana in their mana costs can't be played."

It's crucial for the deck to be abble to block Chalice of the Void (set @ 1 and set @ 2) and Engineered Explosives.

"Noncreature spells with converted mana cost 4 or greater can't be played."

That part isn't the best, I can agree, I prefer Mindscensor ability from far away! (I love to play him in responce to a Fetch land!)
But I look at it as a bonus that comes with the first ability...Anyhow, you still get benefits from it.
No Force of Will, No Misdirection, No Gush, No Empty the Warren, No Tendrills, No Smokestack, etc...

In conclusion, in this deck Gaddock is your friend.
Chat with him and become friends.
Then, he'll come when you need him the most!!!

Instead of Terravore, did anyone try Doran, The Siege Tower in here. Hes a bit lighter on your manabase for starters then Terravore. Also what are the thoughts on Aven Mindscensor in this deck? He is still insanely powerful, and should fit the tempo in this sort of deck rather well...granted he isn't a big beefy guy sadly.

^ look up ^

I really want another guy to put on the beats besides Tarmogoyf. It seems like I want just another guy to make sure the job gets done quickly, after I duress them to death.

I don't think we need more pressure...'Goyf do the job.

[SonataOfTheCathedral]

You play four Tarmogoyf, if you don't draw that beatstick and disrupt the hell out of a powerful deck like GAT, you will be in a bad place alone very quickly with pure hand disruption elements, especially since we are discussing chopping down the number of Zombie Infestations.

[elgoff]

so...what do you say...?

[DarkfnTemplar]

You play four Tarmogoyf, if you don't draw that beatstick and disrupt the hell out of a powerful deck like GAT, you will be in a bad place alone very quickly with pure hand disruption elements, especially since we are discussing chopping down the number of Zombie Infestations.

You're running 4 bob, a profitable bazaar engine, mana denial, 7-8 duress effects, 6-7 aggro bombs. If you don't disrupt them or get aggro, you lost very early with a bad hand.

If you want more aggro, iits probably because you think that other aggro decks will outnumber you. That should be wrong due to your disruption and zombfest.
However, I recommend playing terravore and changing the mana base accordingly if you want more.

But the way i see it, your aggro matchups will consist of RG beats, and magus fish. Both of which you should win.

[elgoff]

DarkfnTemplar, you're so right.

Exept maybe for Terravore...I don't think I'll play him...

[vroman]

3c is just too much. if you have more mana you should be cycling it to bazaar, or manufacturing it into zombies. I say no to terravore and doran and mindcensor and glowrider, solely on cost.
the game plan assuming no moxen is
turn 1- land drop, duress
turn 2- land drop, thorn
turn 3- bazaar, guy
turn 4 to infi- bazaar into guy/duress

[DarkfnTemplar]

I'm a bigger fan of playing confidant asap. Game 1, ill thoughtseize turn one over confidant if possible.

[Polynomial P]

Ok, here is where I am at with this deck.

// Lands
    2 Riftstone Portal
    2 Scrubland
    3 Bayou
    1 Swamp
    4 Polluted Delta
    1 Strip Mine
    4 Bazaar of Baghdad
    3 Wasteland

// Creatures
    2 Jotun Grunt
    4 Tarmogoyf
    3 Gaddock Teeg
    4 Dark Confidant
    4 Squee, Goblin Nabob

// Spells
    2 Zombie Infestation
    1 Crop Rotation
    1 Vampiric Tutor
    1 Life from the Loam
    4 Thoughtseize
    3 Duress
    1 Black Lotus
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    1 Mox Diamond
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 ??????

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Extirpate
SB: 2 Slaughter Pact
SB: 2 Oxidize
SB: 2 Ray of Revelation
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 4 Thorn of Amethyst

I am not certain if going to 5 color is truly worth it. Depending on the metagame, I would drop the three duresses MD and use the 1 ?????? in order to put Thorn of Amethyst MD.

[DarkfnTemplar]

three teeg is going to see some legend overlap i think.
Only one loam? That really cuts down on the draw and pitch stuff i think.

[Duncan]

three teeg is going to see some legend overlap i think.

Since some of them might get countered and some destoyed and you can cycle additional teegs with bazaar 3 is certainly not too much. You want 3 to draw them on a consistent basis.

[meadbert]

Along with being pitched to Bazaar extra Teegs can be discarded to Zombie Infestation.

[BC]

I played this list in a tournament over the weekend:

4  Bazaar of Baghdad
3  Bloodstained Mire
2  Polluted Delta
3  Bayou
2  Scrubland
1  Swamp
2  Riftstone Portal
2  Wasteland
1  Strip Mine
1  Maze of Ith
1  Mox Emerald
1  Mox Jet
1  Mox Sapphire
1  Mox Ruby
1  Mox Pearl
1  Mox Diamond
1  Black Lotus
= 28 land/mana

4  Squee
4  Tarmogoyf
4  Dark Confidant
= 12 creatures   

1  Balance
1  Crop Rotation
4  Swords to Plowshares
2  Life from the Loam
3  Zombie Infestation
1  Demonic Tutor
1  Vampiric Tutor
4  Thoughtseize
3  Duress
= 20 other spells   

4  Thorn of Amethyst
4  Leyline of the Void
2  Null Rod
2  Ray of Revelation
2  Oxidize
1  Seeds of Innocence
= 15 sideboard cards

I ended up a disappointing 3-3 on the day, but I was in contention for most of the tournament.  My 3 wins were all against Workshop decks, my 3 losses were to GAT, Tyrant Oath, Workshop Aggro (lot of Shops at this tournament).  The GAT matchup and my final round loss to Workshop Aggro were both eminently winnable.  The Tyrant Oath matchup, however, was a @#%^ slaughter.  I heavily disrupted the opponent both games, but it didn't seem to slow him down at all.  In the end, there was nothing I could do.  The only option is to keep them off Oath altogether, or destroy it immediately with Ray.  Neither of these is a high percentage plan.

My impressions of the deck:

Crop Rotation was a non-factor, but it could have been kinda good.  It would have saved my ass a couple times if I would have drawn it, but only to rotate for Maze of Ith.  I think these two cards should be intimately linked in this deck.  Both or neither.

There was no situation in which I wished Gaddock Teeg was in the deck.

3 Zombie Infestation and 2 Life from the Loam seemed about right.  Infestation was the balls against workshop decks.  Life from the Loam can't find the graveyard fast enough in any game.  Similarly, Squee should always be 4-of.

Other non-factors for this tournament: Balance, Mox Diamond, Leyline, Thorn

[rkmancer]

I'll play this deck on the next tourney this weekend, any advice?
I think I would play Polynomial P's list with 1 Extirpate maindeck for ???? slot. .
*note : my meta has highly Oath and Stax. .so revelation will definitely 4 on the board. .

[Polynomial P]

Ive said it before and Ill say it again. Dawn of the dead is the epitome of a metagame deck. Prepare for the right metagame and make some reservations for the top 8...metagame incorrectly and you are in a world of hurt.

I consider the minimal dawn of the dead list to be:

4 Dark confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Squee - in the past I've made posts about running 3 squees. I now consider that to be incorrect

1  Vampiric Tutor
4  Duress effects
4  Swords to Plowshares
1  Life from the Loam
1  Zombie Infestation

4 Bazaar

22 Mana producers

Thats a total of 49 cards leaving 11 metagame spots.

For a heavy GAT environment, where I do not expect my manabase to be attacked, I would run:

4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Zombie Infestation
3 Gaddok Teeg
2 Duress
1 Maze of Ith

as my 11 spots. I would not run crop rotation here because it is a often a risky play and getting a crop rotation countered can kill your mana and cost you too much tempo. My manabase would also run alot (read 4) strip effects.

In a heavy workshop environment, notably with workshop aggro decks, the above version would have alot of dead cards in the deck. I would opt for:

2 Zombie Infestation
3 Jotun Grunt
1 Life From the Loam
1 Crop Rotation
1 Balance
2 Slaughter Pact
+1 mana

If I expected more Stax decks, then replace 2 slaughter pacts with 2 Gaddock Teeg. Hopefully he can hold off chalices and smokestacks. In an extremely diverse metagame, I would run a list like I proposed a few posts ago. It runs the minimum of "required" cards, has a few extra aggro cards and cuts out some of the redundant/dead draws, like Life from the loam and a 3rd zombie infestation.

As far as the oath matchup goes, it can be painful if you dont find ray of revelation. Generally, if they get to oath once, you've lost. Try to duress their oath initially, or clear their hand of counters to gear up for Ray of revelation.

RKmancer, good luck and please post at least a mini-report if you get a chance.

[DarkfnTemplar]

I think jacob pretty much covered it here.
Heres my little tweaks:
I really like the 7 duress mb. Against gat, discard is crucial. Every bit of card advantage you take from them hurts their gameplan more and forces them to take risks they cannot afford versus your full board of removal.
In heavy gat, you should probably cut a wasteland. I don't like giving them MORE tempo.

[Polynomial P]

Wasteland is surprisingly good against gat in conjunction with sphere and duress effects. Especially if they need both black and green out of their opening grip, they are likely to drop a dual on turn 1. Then you waste their land and set them back a full turn or more. Keeping one land, brainstorm/ponder hands is the norm for gat decks...and capitalizing on their greedy manabases is pretty good.

Also, i am not too afraid of them gushing after a wasteland as long as they dont have fastbond in play. They actually lose alot of tempo by gushing back two lands during your main phase.

[rkmancer]

Here's my report about my latest tourney (20/01/08 15.00-end) piloting this deck. .
It's only local tourney in my country and since not so many vintage players here, we've just 12 players and it means that 4 rounds to go. .
Only the top 3 get the prize and I finish on the 2nd place. .I have a good time and really enjoy it. .

Here's the list :

Maindeck :

Land (20) :
4  Bazaar of Baghdad
3  Bloodstained Mire
2  Windswept Heath
3  Bayou
2  Scrubland
1  Swamp
1  Riftstone Portal
3  Wasteland
1  Strip Mine

Artifact Mana (7) :
1  Mox Emerald
1  Mox Jet
1  Mox Ruby
1  Mox Pearl
1  Mox Diamond
1  Lotus Petal
1  Black Lotus

Creatures (17) :
4  Squee
4  Tarmogoyf
4  Dark Confidant
3  Gaddock Teeg
2  Jotun Grunt

Instant (5) :
4  Swords to Plowshares
1  Vampiric Tutor

Sorcery (10) :
1  Balance
2  Life from the Loam
4  Thoughtseize
3  Duress

Enchantment (1) :
1  Zombie Infestation

Sideboard (15) :
4  Thorn of Amethyst
4  Leyline of the Void
4  Ray of Revelation
2  Oxidize
1  Krosan Grip

Round 1 : vs Mr Rizal with U/R/B Fish

Game 1 - I lose the dice roll (13:15) and he leads with 1st turn Grim Lavamancer. .pass, and then I start my turn with 1st turn Dark Confidant with my only mox and only land with hope that I will draw more to find another mana base before his Lavamancer become active. .But in fact he waste my Scrubland, drop Mox Ruby and Bolt my Bob. .His next turn is eating my mox with Gorilla Shaman and beat me down till I lose. .
Game 2 - Play first, mulligan to 6 and have a fetch land search for Bayou and Black Lotus to have me cast Toughtseize -> discard his mancer -> drop a 3/4 Goyf. .at his turn he did nothing except drop a land and at my next turn I drop Bazaar -> draw 2 and pitch Balance, Vampiric Tutor, and Zombie Infestation -> Drop confidant. .he has no answer to 6/7 Goyf and it's an easy victory. .
Game 3 - He drop a fetch, drop Mog Fanatic, enter my turn, Duress his FoW away and win tha game with 2 4/5 Goyfs. .

[1-0]

Round 2 : vs Randy with Platinum and / or Tyrant Oath
Game 1 -  I lose the dice roll (13:15) and he has no oath but find a way to hard cast Platinum Angel (using Black Lotus) right after he Force my Thoughtseize. .then I Sword his Platinum, be countered by Pact of Negation, then I Sword it again (double kill!!), and he unable to pay that pact so he lose the game. .
Game 2 - He has 1st turn Oath + Orchard, revealing Tyrant (what the??). .enter my turn. .nothing's important. .and he grab me with Triskelavus - Tyrant combo at his next turn. .
Game 3 - Ray of Revelation really shines here. .and Goyf bring his into the death and give me my 2nd win for this day. .

[2-0]

Round 3 : vs Paulus with U/B/W Fish
Game 1 - I lose the dice roll (13:15 again???????). .and he starts with early confidant but I have a very wonderful hand. .1st turn drop Scrubland -> drop Black Lotus and get 3  mana to resolve mirror Confidant -> Toughtseize -> remove Jotun Grunt -> and then Sword his Bob. .
He drop Kataki and pass. .I reveal Mox Emerald -> draw Squee -> Drop Bazaar -> and then beat him since I win in creatures quantity. .
Game 2 - Loam and Wasteland are really shine here. .delay him until I have 3 4/5 Goyfs beat him. .thanks God his Jitte and Leyaline didn't appear tough I prepare enough Oxidize and Ray to prevent it. .

[3-0]

Round 4 : vs Mr Gani with Tyrant Oath
Game 1 - I lose the dice roll (13:19 4th appearance of 13. .owh no. .). .1st turn oath -> no answer -> active and nothing to be told. .
Game 2 - I keep my hand with 2 Ray but has no creatures in my hand, destroy 2 of his Oath but still has no creatures, playing Bazaar, draw for 2 and my 1st creature is Squee so I discard it away. .too bad it gets extirpated. .and then he has enough mana to cast Tyrant and Triskelavus to beat me down. .

[3-1]

After this tourney I just realize that all I faced today is just Oath and Oath. .Fish and Fish. .and perfect lose to dice rolls. .
Thanks for this thread and any advices to improve my skill using this deck. .too bad I have nothing to do with Zombie Infestation and Gaddock Teeg is always being Forced. .

*this performance, result, and report are dedicated to my friend's younger brother who passed away 8 days ago. .
(I choose to play this deck simply because I was unable to bring my own cards which laid in his house. .so I borrowed cards from many people, built this deck, and find a fine result. .may his soul and spirit rest in peace. .)

[Rock Lee]

@rkmancer:
I have playtested DotD against Oath often, and it always got clobbered hardcore. In your experience, do the 4x Ray of Revelations go the distance against them?

[rkmancer]

@rkmancer:
I have playtested DotD against Oath often, and it always got clobbered hardcore. In your experience, do the 4x Ray of Revelations go the distance against them?

As Mr Polynomial P said about Oath match up :

As far as the oath matchup goes, it can be painful if you dont find ray of revelation. Generally, if they get to oath once, you've lost. Try to duress their oath initially, or clear their hand of counters to gear up for Ray of revelation.

4x Ray of Revelations because I want to see it in my opening hand. .Ray is the most powerful tool against oath beside all discard spells so it'll be fully needed in Oath metagame. .1 Ray usually destroy 1 Oath and pray it won't be extirpated until the opponent find another. .Ray make you don't have to fear drop your creature since this deck reach victory with them and there's no other way but creatures. .In average, 1 Tarmogoyf need 4 turn to beat into the death and Ray will give you that chance. .

[elgoff]

HI! I played Dawn of the Dead this weekend.

So, here's a little overview of the day and my report.

Format: Vintage
50 Participants in SIDE Event, (29 Participants in the Main Event but I wasn't qualified for it...)
6 rounds of Swiss
- followed by T8 Playoffs
Tournament Organizer: QVC Québec Vintage Championship

Decklist:
Dawn of the Dead v1.2

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Jotun Grunt
4 Squee, Goblin Nabob

3 Zombie Infestation

4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Vampiric Tutor

1 Demonic Tutor
2 Life from the Loam
3 Duress
4 Thoughtseize

4 Bazaar of Baghdad
2 Riftstone Portal
2 Scrubland
3 Bayou
1 Swamp
2 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Strip Mine
3 Wasteland

Sideboard:
SB: 4 Leylines of the Void (never sided in)
SB: 4 Thorn of Amethyst (sided in once VS GAT)
SB: 2 Oxidize (never sided in)
SB: 3 Ray of Revelation (sided in twice!)
SB: 2 Meta choice = Pithing Needle (little help twice, not essential) I would ratter have 2x Rain of Blades as a special tech!!

Report Quebec Vintage Championship 2007

Dawn of the Dead (4 – 2 – 0)

I lost to my two first match up…so, no Top 8 this time!
The deck did what it is suppose to do, except versus Goblins!?!? WTF?

Here’s a brief analysis of each match up:

Round 1: Goblins (R)
Game 1: Loose to dice roll. My opponent mulligan to 6 cards. I keep a hand with Bazaar, Squee, Infestation, Jet, Portal+2 lands. He starts with Lackey, Lotus, sac Lotus for Blood Moon!!! Game plan changes to : play Jet + ”Mountain”, drop Zombie Infestation and pass the turn. Luckily I had that Mox Jet,  I win a couple of turns after…
Game 2: (-2 Duress, + 2 Ray) I keep a hand with Bazaar, Squee, Squee, Swords, Thoughtseize +2 lands. I lead with Bazaar, he goes with Lackey. I activate Bazaar in response discard Squee, Squee, Portal. I draw a land, activate Bazaar again to find nothing…I drop Mox Pearl + Bayou then passing the turn. When lackey attacks / I swords it! Then all the next turns look like: I activate Bazaar discard Squee, Squee, + (lands, Loam) playing a couple of Thoughtseize to discard his best Goblins…I eventually die under 2-3 Piledriver!
Game 3: I have Fetch, Bazaar, Demonic, Ray, Swords, Swords, Swords. I start with a Fetch, he goes with Vandals. I don’t remember what Vandal do so I drop a Lotus in front of him some time in the game…Mistake…Wasted my land…Then I tried to come back in the game but that error cost me a big lost of tempo. I Demonic on another ‘Goyf. I play 2 ‘Goyf, Bob…But Bob gets Gempalm Incinerated on the way of many Goblins that attacked for the game…

Round 2: Food Chain Goblins
Game 1: Win dice roll. Keep a very decent hand of Mox, 2 lands, Bob, Gaddock, ‘Goyf, Duress. I lead with Duress seeing another Goblin deck…nothing to discard!!! He combo out within 5 turns…(Food Chain + Recrutor)
Game 2: (-1 Loam, -3 Duress, +2 Pithing Needle, + 2 Ray) I don’t remember my hand but it was playable…I start with Needle first turn naming Gempalm. He has a FCG God Hand and combo out turn 2 or 3, I can’t remember.

Wow. Deception. Lost to Goblins. I still continue the day to see what are the next match up.

Round 3: Green Elf (Young player)
Game 1 and Game 2. (-2 Duress, + 2 Needle) In both games, all I saw in play is a total of 2x Wellwisher, 1x Timberwatch Elf, 1x Elvish Champion…All got Sworded before the next upkeep, except for 1x Wellwisher that gave him about 3 lifes! The other elves got discarded by Thoughtseize before he could cast them…Easy win!

Round 4: GAT with ‘Goyf & Bob!?
Game 1: Loose dice roll. Keep hand of Bazaar, Squee, Land, 2x Duress, Bob, Swords. He leads with Mox + Land + Bob…I play swords on Bob for him not to start drawing like crazy…The turn after I see 2x Tarmogoyf in front of me! I drop Bazaar start digging in my library to fing some more Swords. I eventually get the entire counters out or discarded to finally Swords both Tarmo. I just needed a few turns to crush him with an Infestation of zombie tokens…
Game 2: (-2 Infestation, -2 Loam, + 4 Thorn). He start with Leyline into play. That shouts down my original hand play. (I had Mox Jet, Fetch, 2 Squee, Infestation, Thoughtseize, Duress) I wanted to play Infestation first turn but nothing to gain from it in the future…So I wrecked his hand first turn playing Thoughtseize first witch got FOW (pitch on Drain), then I cast Duress discarding Ancestral Recall!!! The next turn I played Dark Confidant. The turn after another one plus a Tarmogoyf…Win! Nothing got in the way! I didn't saw any Dryads but he told me that he was playing some...weird build for a GAT deck.

Round 5: Oath with Transformer Sideboard into GAT.
Game 1: I loose again to dice roll. Keep a very decent hand of Mox, 2 lands, Bob, Grunt, Thoughtseize, Duress. My opponent starts by casting Duress on me…removing Duress. I follow by casting the Mox and after Thoughtseize on FOW. (I saw Tyrant and Orchard in his hand…) So he’s playing Oath…I have to race now knowing that. I cast Bob turn 2 and Grunt turn three. On his fourth turn he cast Bargain…drawing 9 cards…he’s going right away for Tinker to find Platinum in his deck…Next few turn I attack, attack, attack…waiting to find a Duress to protech the 2x Swords I had in hand to kill the Angel.
Game 2: (-2 Infestation, -1 Loam, + 3 Ray of Revelation) Keep a hand with Swords, Ray, Ray, Tarmo, Tarmo, Bayou, Bazaar. I drop Bazaar digging in…finding 1x Squee + Mox!! So, I discard Squee, Ray, Ray. I never say a Oath because he switch them for some Dryads!?!? Anyway, the following turn I draw Lotus to cast both Tarmogoyf, Good Game Sir!

Round 6: Sullivan Solution with MD Jailers!
Game 1: I win dice roll! My opponent mulligan down to 5 cards…I Duress first turn Misdirection, second turn I Duress Ancestral Recall. He plays Jailer first turn after top decking a Mox. I didn't find some Guys or Swords to remove the Jailer until late in the game...witch brings me down to 2 life. I finally Swords it. Drop Grunt & Gaddock (totally screw his hand…) in the mid time and kill him in 4-5 turns.
Game 2: (No side in) I have a God hand. (Lotus, Jet, Fetch, Thoughtseize, 2x ‘Goyf, Grunt). My opponent leads with Brainstorm. On my first turn I go with Jet + Thoughtseize seing not much but 1x FOW, 1x Drain and no other blue cards…bye bye Drain. Then I drop my Fetch, cast Lotus + 2x Tarmogoyf. What a first turn! I kill my opponent within 2-3 turns.

+): Jotun Grunt & Squee for being there when I needed them the most. Bob for not killing me!
-): Goblins for taking me out so early in the day. NO TOP 8 this time...

THANKS...see ya.

[DarkfnTemplar]

I like that game 1. Rip zombfest discard portal, nice blood moon....

[Polynomial P]

I'm glad to see that Dawn of the dead is getting some serious play all over, but:

I have Fetch, Bazaar, Demonic, Ray, Swords, Swords, Swords. I start with a Fetch, he goes with Vandals. I don’t remember what Vandal do so I drop a Lotus in front of him some time in the game…Mistake…Wasted my land…Then I tried to come back in the game but that error cost me a big lost of tempo. I Demonic on another ‘Goyf. I play 2 ‘Goyf, Bob…But Bob gets Gempalm Incinerated on the way of many Goblins that attacked for the game

Demonic for goyf is not the strongest of plays against a swarm deck. Demonic probably should have gotten zombie infestation, especially when you have bazaar to dig for squees and bob to give you a zombie per turn. You should have the upper hand against regular goblins...however, food chain goblins is nearly impossible to beat if they drop food chain.

[elgoff]

Ploly...I guess you're more than right!

With some more time to think about it, I should have Tutor for something else, Zombie Infestation perhaps like you said.

I'm going to take the deck next weekend to Toronto (First place = Black Lotus, Second place = Black Lotus, ...).

After palying the deck, I don't think Pithing Neddle is really needed in the sideboard. We absolutly don't need a 4th Ray of Revelation in the board, 3x Ray is enough. I didn't saw any Stacks or Workshop, how do you guys did against these deck? Does 2x Oxidise do the job or do I have to live room for let say 1x Krosan Grip or Seeds of Innocence!?

Do you think a special tech like Sandstorm or Rain of Blades could save us from little swarm like Goblins, Slivers, Tokens...???

elgoff,./*

You guys should go and have a look at the tournament I went (One of the weirdess T8 I've seen, In the main event...) : http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=35217.0

[Polynomial P]

Needle is actually what people will side in against you. Basically, the only cards that needle is good against are in your deck or named goblin welder.

I prefer to run 1 Krosan Grip in my SB along with a couple (2-3) ray of revelation depending on the metagame and how much oath I will see. Krosan grip is sure to destroy an oath and it also dodges chalice at 2 vs stax.

The stax matchup is pretty favorable, but depends on who goes first and how soon they drop chalice at 2. Dark confidant is very good against them so that you keep hitting your land drops and keep producing permanents. If you get zombie infest + squees or life from the loam online, you can permanent race them or just go aggro and win. Games 2 and 3 are a bit better because you can destroy their chalices, although by then they will know what you are playing. Basically against stax, I secure my manabase with LFTL when possible. Get either a bob or zombie infestation out asap and go aggro. Do not overextend by playing 3 bobs into a trike.

Workshop aggro I am less familiar with, but again, zombie infestations are great vs them. Try and get your basic swamp out and a riftstone in your graveyard to dodge any magus of the moon. If you have a STP in your hand against the mono-red workshop decks, do not tap out. Leave a white open, and float it when they play magus of the moon. I tend to have a few slaughter pacts in my SB as they are good for Tarmogoyf, Magus of the moon and most artifact creatures. I think this matchup should be favorable, unless their welders go nuts on you with duplicants/trikes/solemns. Its basically like playing against a Stax deck with better early game and no way to completely lock you out. I think they bring in pyro pillars from the sb, so be ready for those.

Rain of blades is terrible against goblins, so no. Sandstorm will be decent vs gobbos...but i dont think its worth it. I run crop rotation in my list, so I'm considering SBing a Tabernacle at Pendrell vale for the swarm decks and ETW tokens. Plus, its uncounterable.

[BC]

Workshop aggro I am less familiar with, but again, zombie infestations are great vs them.

I heartily second this.  I've played this match several times, and it is very favorable.  They have no way to deal with Zombie Infestation, and they don't have the numbers to overrun your hoard, so just be patient and win.

[DarkfnTemplar]

The razormanes are annoying, but if you can get the engine going, you should beat them.
That top 8 was weird. How is that elemental deck good? Its like, block...
I cut needles. run grip over seeds
Tabernacle eh? Dawn of the dead is going to be called "land toolbox". Waste, Strip, tabernacle, bazaar, ith, hell, lets run desert.
But seriously, running it as a one of may be better than running EE as a two of. I like things that cant be countered.

[Polynomial P]

Razormane is a real problem, but i havent seen that being played in any of the major lists posted online. Let them discard to him in upkeep and kill it before the draw step.

[elgoff]

That top 8 was weird. How is that elemental deck good? Its like, block...

I would say "Special"...The deck is full of surprise!
I think what made it good is that nobody was ready to see something like it!

==============

Has for Razorman...Only one guy I know runs them (2x main deck, 2x sideboard)
And they always gets Sworded!! After the Upkeep of course!!

[Polynomial P]

So after playtesting a bunch with vroman and testing this online, I've come to the conclusion that if your metagame is without alot of workshop decks then the 5c version is the way to go. 5c gives you Recall, walk (which is insane in here), and access to some pretty good red cards, like mogg fanatic and viashino heretic. However, if your metagame is full of decks that attack your manabase, then sticking with the solid 3-color base is right.

Fanatic is very helpful vs Flash and it is another hoop for ichorid to jump through. With the wastes, extirpates, and fanatics, I think the 5c version should have a fantastic game against ichorid.

[vroman]

I disagree. I think the 5c manabase is fine, even facing active mana denial attacks. the deck operates sucessfully on 2 mana. w a draw engine of dconf or bazaar, or permanent engine of zombfest, making land drops is no problem or irrelevent, against attrition strategies. I look forward to facing stax. GAT is what I worry about. design your deck to beat Gat first, then try your best to cover your bases against the rest of the field.