MUDStaxDomination! Another Shop Deck.

[LotusHead]

I'm addicted to playing with Shops.  I thought I was addicted to Force of Will and Brainstorm, but it's all about the Shops in a proxy environment.  Oddly enough, I only need 2 proxies with this build of MUDSTAXDOMINATION.

I plan to run this in 2 weeks, and I am looking for suggestions, critiques and especially SB help.
(Or I might throw The Gilded Claw back together again. Who knows.)



// Lands
    4  Ancient Tomb
    4  Mishra's Workshop
    1  Tolarian Academy
    1  Strip Mine
    3  Wasteland
    1  Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    1  Ghost Quarter

// Creatures
    1  Triskelion
    1  Karn, Silver Golem
    1  Sundering Titan
    4  Metalworker
    1  Duplicant
    2  Arcbound Ravager
    4  Juggernaut
    1  Platinum Angel

// Spells
    1 Black Lotus
    1  Mana Crypt
    1 Mana Vault
    1 Sol Ring
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Memory Jar
    1  Staff of Domination
    3  Crucible of Worlds
    3 Tangle Wire
    4 Smokestack
    2  Chalice of the Void
    1  Trinisphere
    4 Sphere of Resistance
    2  Thorn of Amethyst

// Sideboard
SB: 3  Triskelion
SB: 1  Tangle Wire
SB: 2  Chalice of the Void
SB: 4  Leyline of the Void
SB: 2  Pithing Needle
SB: 3  Maze of Ith

Explanations:
Lands-------------------------------------------------------------------
4 Ancient Tomb                      Mini-Shops that hurt.
4 Mishra's Workshop                 Actual Shops
1 Tolarian Academy                   Uber Shop
1 Strip Mine                                Auto Include
3 Wasteland                                 I have 3 pimp ones. I could go up to 4 and lose a Ghost Quarter or Ancient Tomb #4
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth          This card is amazing. Makes A.Tombs hurt less, and makes Sundering Titan hurt more.
1 Ghost Quarter                                It's foil, but hits islands and other basics.

Doodz----------------
    1 Triskelion                                Heck yeah!
    1 Karn, Silver Golem                    Heck Yeah!
    1 Sundering Titan                       Heck Yeah!
    4 Metalworker                            Mono-Brown should use these, yes? I haven't thought about it much beyond that.
    1 Duplicant                                Heck Yeah!
    2 Arcbound Ravager                    I own 2. Combo's with artifact decks and Trikes
    4 Juggernaut                             4 Foil Beaters. Why not?
    1 Platinum Angel                         Maybe I won't lose if it's in play.

LockPieces--------------------------
    3  Crucible of Worlds                    Shops. Smokestacks. Strips. Auto include
    3 Tangle Wire                             I want 4, and I want 0. 3 is better than 2.
    4 Smokestack                             I like this card.
    2  Chalice of the Void                   I love and hate this card. 
                                                    Only 2 MD so I can lucksack turn 1, or set appropriately lategame
    1 Trinisphere                             
    4 Sphere of Resistance               
    2  Thorn of Amethyst                  I own two.  I'm not opposed to going up to 4.


Combo---------------------------------------------
    1  Memory Jar                        It's awesome if resolved.
    1  Staff of Domination             I win if Metalworker is out and active and have 3+ artifacts in hand.
                                                     Plus it taps DSC and gains me life if no MetalWorker active.

Expensive Cards--------------------------------------------
    1 Black Lotus                              This is why we play Vintage. Power.
    1  Mana Crypt
    1  Mana Vault
    1  Sol Ring
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mox Jet
    1  Mox Ruby


// Sideboard
SB: 3  Triskelion
SB: 1  Tangle Wire
SB: 2  Chalice of the Void
SB: 4  Leyline of the Void
SB: 2  Pithing Needle
SB: 3  Maze of Ith


The SB is crap. I'll listen to any suggestions. My meta has Stax (up to 20%), GAT/Gush (up to 50%) Salvagers/Oath/Storm/Fish/Mono-Black/Goblins make up to other 30%. I'm sure Deeznaughts will get played by someone or other.  Things I am not worried about: Null Rod. Things I am worried about : Dedicated SB hate like Ancient Grudge Ingot Cherwer Rack and Ruin Shattering Spree Energy Flux. Flash/Ichorid.

[Bill Copes]

I'd cut the 2 maindeck thorns for 2 more chalices.  Chalice at 1 seems to hurt gat pretty bad -- just as much, if not more so than a thorn being in play with a 3 sphere.  Chalice at 2 shuts out all of their threats.  During game 2, they'll bring in 4 goyfs, which are unaffected by thorn being in play.  I was hell bent on using thorn when it was first legal, but after 3 tournaments I found that unless you're a completely dedicated aggro deck, they're not so hot.  You could find yourself unable to cast a crucible or a wire when you need to, because you're trapped under 3 of your own spheres.

So yeah, I'd maybe move them to the sideboard and have 4 chalices main.

Maybe drop 1 juggs or 2 ravagers for a couple more Staff of Dominations?  It'll open you up to more lucky combo wins.

[SimonCopp]

I like

-2 Ravager
-1 Staff Of Domination
-4 Smokestack

+3 Sword Of Fire And Ice
+2 Chalice
+2 Thorn

I'm in agreement with the argument that's been made about Stack being too slow or a win more card. The ravagers don't seem that bad but i'm pretty sure you want the slots elsewhere and Staff Of Domination is waaaaaaaaaay too random.

I've heard good things about SoFI, key word: heard so test it! Chalice and Thorn help keep games fair which is what you're trying to do.

I feel these changes would make you more competitive in your metagame (thanks for mentioning that).

[xycsoscyx]

If you're running MetalWorker than I'd never cut Staff just because it can potentially let you draw and play your entire deck turn two, it's really just that random "Oooops, I win" factor.

EDIT: Here's a rough list that I've been working on for MonoBrown, it's more a ShopAgro than Stax deck, but the 9Sphere + Chalice is a strong enough disruption that your guys can get in there for 20.  MetalWorker is being tested at the moment, but I'm not 100% sold on him (him sticking on the first turn should pretty much be a win as long as it's not a 6Land + 1Worker hand).  Staff, like I said, is in there for the random "Ooooops, I win" factor from Worker on the first turn.  Juggs/Centurion are the main beatz of the deck (I prefer Centurion over SuChi because there is no way to abuse the Chi in the deck), Swords are there for ProBlue and for card drawing (without them, the deck goes into considerable top deck mode).  I am still not entirely sold on them, either, but so far they are the best card for the job (primarily card drawing, Bazaar doesn't work nearly as well in this deck, which really leaves Memory Jar and possibly a splash of Red for Wheel of Fortune).  Staff still works as card drawing without MetalWorker, but it's too substandard to really be counted.  The other card I had in the list previously was Razormane Masticore, which I am a HUGE fan of (considering much of the time he can trade with a Goyf and win), I cut it at the moment to try to add MetalWorker, though.  Here's the list:

// Lands
    2  City of Traitors
    4  Wasteland
    1  Strip Mine
    4  Mishra's Factory (4)
    4  Mishra's Workshop
    4  Ancient Tomb
    1  Tolarian Academy

// Creatures
    4  Metalworker
    4  Synod Centurion
    4  Juggernaut
    2  Karn, Silver Golem

// Spells
    1  Sol Ring
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Mana Crypt
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Black Lotus
    4  Thorn of Amethyst
    4  Sphere of Resistance
    4  Chalice of the Void
    1  Trinisphere
    1  Staff of Domination
    4  Sword of Fire and Ice

[madmanmike25]

LotusHead,

Your creature base looks like you are still in a 'Gilded Lotus' frame of mind, that is to say it seems like you think Tinker/DT are in the deck.  Your deck could benefit from more focus.  I think that's too many singletons for MUD, a deck which is supposed to be even more consistent than mono-red shop decks. 

MUD can easily be a solid stax deck.  If you want to add an aggro element......then Karn is your man.  In other words, needs more Karn. 

Let's face it, the Ravager+Trike kill is nice, but it really isn't going to happen that often unless you focus your deck on it.  Your artifacts should be more important than just giving Rav a +1/+1 counter, which is all that he can do if you never see a Trike.

You need more draw than Memory Jar.  Staff isn't reliable at all except how Xy described it as  "Oops....etc."  Not saying to cut the Staff, just that you need something in addition.  Even the MUD lists of old had Grafted Skullcap.

If you still want to focus primarily on the Stax aspect, here are some card suggestions:

Orb of Dreams--(2-3) Good on the play, and good later vs. Gush.  Slows the game way down, and wrecks fetchlands.  Later it turns into a 3/3 with Karn.
Bottled Cloister--(3-4) Card draw, and it makes you Duress/Seize proof.  It's not like MUD would cast a draw artifact before some lock pieces, so just play smart and the potential drawback is minimal.
E. Bridge--(2-3)Can buy you all the time you need and works GREAT with Cloister.
CotV(3-4) Is awesome in Stax decks.  Awesome, because it prevents low CC permanents from ever coming into play.
Powder Keg(0-?).  If you see lots of zombies/tokens.  Can also knock off opposing Welders.
Karn--MINIMUM of 2, best at 3 in MUD imo.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

I also like the aggro side of MUD, which is the direction Xy has taken.  I think his list should also try out Orb, since he has Karn and none of his creatures have haste anyways.  The only problem is finding room.

I would keep Metalworker in, even if just to help your manabase from being Wastelanded away.  Then again, Crucibles could help out your Factories.

I would also suggest cutting one SoFi for Memory Jar unless you play against tons of Ichorid.

4  Thorn of Amethyst
4  Sphere of Resistance
4  Chalice of the Void
1  Trinisphere

As a shop player I like that disruption package, but it almost seems excessive.  I feel that Tanglewire might work better than either Thorns or Chalice, but that's up in the air and only testing will answer that.  Sphere stays for sure, but in non-Stax decks it is difficult to determine whether Chalice or Thorn is the better card.  I guess your creature count determines this, as well as if you face more aggro decks.  If you do decide to swap anything, I would say to just put them in the SB.


**As a question to other Shop players(Stax and aggro);  What numerical order would you put these cards in terms of MD disruption??  Chalice, Thorn, Sphere, and Tanglewire.    I'm guessing that Aggro and Stax players will probably rate these cards differently.


Just some random thoughts you guys,
Mike

[islanderboi10]

As a stax player, I would rate those cards in these order:

Sphere, Thorn, Chalice, Wire.

I feel that Sphere/Thorn affect the game state as is right now, and it slows the game way down.  I also feel that chalice is like a chopping block for many cards in many decks.  But it depends on what you are playing, that is the thing.  I really like wire, but I feel like it is the lowest of those because it can easily be played around/through.  It does give you a few time walk turns, and it is amazing in the early game, but I would rather be dropping thorn/sphere or chalice on the board.

I do love wire, though.


Back on topic, I agree with madmanmike25, Karn should be your main kill. Also, i would look  over some options that the mud/stax deck that won Chicago.  Bottled Cloister is really good, unless you face opposing welders, or artifact hate.  It is nuts with Ensnaring Bridge, as said above.
I also like Orb of Dreams right now. It slows the game WAY down.

Just my .02 cents.

[Shock Wave]

Isn't Tangle Wire terrible in a deck without Goblin Welder? I mean, sure, it may buy you a turn or two, but if you have no way to recur it, it barely even qualifies as a soft lock piece. I would try:

-2 Ravager
-3 Wire
-1 Staff (The "Oops, I drew this w/Worker in my first hand" scenario is not a good reason to run this thing as a 1-of. It will suck horribly when you don't have a Worker)
-1 Juggernaut (I wouldn't want to see 2 of these in my first hand)

+2 CotV
+2 Powder Keg
+2 Grafted Skullcap or Cloister (I think these cards suck really badly, but wtf else are you going to use to draw cards with Mono Brown?  )
+1 Karn

[LotusHead]

Thank you to all that chimed in.

Your creature base looks like you are still in a 'Gilded Lotus' frame of mind, that is to say it seems like you think Tinker/DT are in the deck.  Your deck could benefit from more focus.  I think that's too many singletons for MUD, a deck which is supposed to be even more consistent than mono-red shop decks. 
MUD can easily be a solid stax deck.  If you want to add an aggro element......then Karn is your man.  In other words, needs more Karn. 

Guilty

Normally I stick to 5c builds of Stax or  Shop Aggro decks, and but I've done  Mono-Brown Shop Aggro before (Crushing Chamber, CrushingChamber/RiversAffinityMishmash, and well, MudStax much like this).

I am torn between following my heart and having "random singletons" with no tutor base or draw engine and banking on "variety, but fat doodz" to give me the wins than having a 4xeach and 1xeach restricted list.  This is why Ravager and Platz are still in the main.

Each fatty does something wonderfull (Titan, Karn, Trike, Dupe, Platz, hell, even Jugg) and it's hard as hell to "Not have a duplicant" in this build with no Welders (to deal with DSC or say, Platz), or to "not have a Titan" with my Shop mana base, or "Not have a Trike" since  I'm not completely stupid.  But it's also hard to double up on any of them (except Jugg) due to their mana cost. So 4 Juggs and X singleton beaters it is.

Carddraw: Overrated.

Before you all kick me off the Drain, lemme say I've been living off the Topdeck for the last 2 years, and I've done well enough with 1 Ancestral Recall, and 1 Memory Jar (and Tutors for each).  That's why I haven't done the shitty carddraw artifacts thing yet (Cloister, Skullcap, etc).  Sword of Fire/Ice is hot, so is SkullClamp, but I don't want to cut anything in particular to force them into the maindeck.  If my opponent counters my first 3 threats/locks because they got the broken draw, I lose. I accept that.  But if, after testing this weekend, and if my teammates settle on a deck, then I can proxy up SOFI or throw in skullclamp.  I'm not sold on CLoister/SkullCap.

Chalice: I want zero maindeck, but Chalice set at 1 is hotness in this build (I have 2 1cc spells I think). Merchant Scroll for answers circumvents this, but such is life.

Tangle Wire x3: This is Shop Aggro AND Stax, with the possibilty of Staff borkeness.  I feel Tangle Wire fits nicely with this plan (my "goldfish list" had 65 cards, so -1 Tanglewire was needed to bring down to 3.)

Juggz: Beats for Cheap. Sucks up Force of Will with the best of 'em.

Orb of Dreams, Ensnaring Bridge, Powder Keg: I own 4, 1 and 0 of these, and Orb does seem nice.  I'll keep them in mind when I playtest on Friday (I haven't played MTG in 2 weeks!)

Staying focused as a list and all is great, but not an auto-follow.  I don't have a problem having 1 random-ass Staff of Domination or 2 Ravagers in the build for the random wins they could provide, or the utility Staff/Rav can give (eating my own SmokeStack/Chalice for example). People told me that my Salvagers "Combo win, Lucksack Tinker/DSC win, Control through Blue Spells and worst case senario Aggro beatdown with Trinket Mages" was unviable.  They were wrong. I followed my heart and did well. Maybe I will do well with this.  But I got 2 Chalice Slots (and at least a Jugg slot) to play with.  The cutting Thorn from the maindeck because it doesn't affect Tarmogoyf doesn't make sence to me. 

[madmanmike25]

Isn't Tangle Wire terrible in a deck without Goblin Welder? I mean, sure, it may buy you a turn or two, but if you have no way to recur it, it barely even qualifies as a soft lock piece.

Yarbles.  Just because Tanglewire is stupid good with Welder recursion, does NOT make it a bad card without recursion.  Regarding the mediocrity of a turn or two;  let's see, that's 1 or 2 more cards you draw and can mean 5-10 more damage with one Jugg in play or 10-20 damage with 2 Juggs in play.  I think that currently Tanglewire is the best it has been in a long time.  I'm not saying it is an auto-include though, but it's usually nice to see them.  It really is the closest thing Shop decks will ever get to a Time Walk, since Time Vault pretty much blows.

@ islanderboi10, thanks for answering.  For STAX, I would rate the cards:

1.  Chalice
2.  Sphere
3.  Tangle
4.  Thorn

I put Chalice 1st because it actually counters cards instead of delaying them as with Sphere.  I put Tangles above Thorn because I play with Welders, and recursion(as we know) is pretty ok.

Each fatty does something wonderfull.......... So 4 Juggs and X singleton beaters it is.

Sounds like you already have your mind made up.  I hope it works for you.

Carddraw: Overrated.

No comment...except that Shop decks tend to draw the game out, and topdecking mana late game doesn't exactly help the cause.  But do what feels right for your deck.

Since you mentioned it, have you thought about just taking the Rivers deck and merely swapping out Tanglewires for Thorns?  Think about it, you would run more aggro than anyone, and you still get the benefit of the Ravager+Trike kill.  You get to run Clamps AND SoFi, and not to mention the fact that the deck is insanely fun, especially in a Null Rod light environment.

For reference:

Lands(16):
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Mishras Workshop
4 Wasteland
2 City of Traitors
1 Stripmine
1 Tolarian Academy

Creatures(19):
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Metalworker
4 Myr Servitor
4 Myr Retriever
3 Triskelion

Ect(25):
4 Skullclamp
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Tangle Wire(try Thorns)
3 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Memory Jar

Good luck,
Mike

[Shock Wave]

Yarbles.  Just because Tanglewire is stupid good with Welder recursion, does NOT make it a bad card without recursion.  Regarding the mediocrity of a turn or two;  let's see, that's 1 or 2 more cards you draw and can mean 5-10 more damage with one Jugg in play or 10-20 damage with 2 Juggs in play.  I think that currently Tanglewire is the best it has been in a long time.  I'm not saying it is an auto-include though, but it's usually nice to see them.  It really is the closest thing Shop decks will ever get to a Time Walk, since Time Vault pretty much blows.

Tangle Wire is great when you already have pressure on the board, but it doesn't really do much at board parity except cost you a card. This deck doesn't really have a lot of early threats that really make wire an issue worth addressing. I think Wire is a strong card too, but moreso in a deck with greater threat density. While the lack of Goblin Welder certainly doesn't make Wire a poor card, it certainly lessens its potency to a significant degree. I'm of the opinion that running MonoBrown without a focus on the StaffWorker combo is just better off with a red splash for Goblin Welder, but that's just me.

[LotusHead]

I'm of the opinion that running MonoBrown without a focus on the StaffWorker combo is just better off with a red splash for Goblin Welder, but that's just me.

My IRL SB has 4 Welders, mountains, B-Rings and some red SB Goodies.

[Rock Lee]

On the subject of the decklist you posted. It seems "confused" a state I call decks that have great ideas; too many ideas. You seem to be running a 5 color tutor system without the tutors. 2 ravagers, 1 trike, 2 chalices. All very confusing because these drops are all powerful in multiples.

Without a solid way to revamp your hand size, metalworker honestly isn't powerful after turn 2-3. And requiring you to have solid openers for metalworkers will make you mull more aggressively, which in turn hurts metalworker.

I see lots of good ideas, but no overwhelming synergy.


Personally, I suggest taking a look at the deck I've been piloting parallel with some Japanese folks for the past month.
Serra, from Japan, and myself have been creating an aggro-shop-combo deck that has been doing fantastically for me in the Northeast and for his cohorts in the Far East.

I'll make my own thread to describe this deck at another time. But for now here's the meat and potatoes.

Lands
    1  Tolarian Academy
    1  Strip Mine
    4  Mishra's Factory
    4  Mishra's Workshop
    2  Ancient Tomb
    4  Wasteland

Creatures
    4  Myr Retriever
    4  Arcbound Ravager
    4  Metalworker
    4  Frogmite
    2  Duplicant
    3  Triskelion

Spells
    4  Skullclamp
    3  Staff of Domination
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Sol Ring
    1  Memory Jar
    4  Chalice of the Void
    1  Mana Crypt
    2  Lightning Greaves
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mana Vault

Sideboard
SB: 1  Triskelion
SB: 3  Pithing Needle
SB: 2  Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2  Orb of Dreams
SB: 1  Trinisphere
SB: 3  Sphere of Resistance
SB: 3  Crucible of Worlds

Its not MUD Staxx. But Shop-Aggro with a combo component. If you're looking for the best form of Shop domination out there, this it it. It is incredibly resilient and able to change gameplans, if necessary, on a dime.

Sofar I've won 2 pieces of power with this deck in the 4 tournaments I've been to with it. Playtest it some if you're skeptical. Its powerful and relentless.

Full writeup with credit to Serra's innovations upcoming!

[Shock Wave]

On the subject of the decklist you posted. It seems "confused" a state I call decks that have great ideas; too many ideas. You seem to be running a 5 color tutor system without the tutors. 2 ravagers, 1 trike, 2 chalices. All very confusing because these drops are all powerful in multiples.

Without a solid way to revamp your hand size, metalworker honestly isn't powerful after turn 2-3. And requiring you to have solid openers for metalworkers will make you mull more aggressively, which in turn hurts metalworker.

I see lots of good ideas, but no overwhelming synergy.


Personally, I suggest taking a look at the deck I've been piloting parallel with some Japanese folks for the past month.
Serra, from Japan, and myself have been creating an aggro-shop-combo deck that has been doing fantastically for me in the Northeast and for his cohorts in the Far East.

I'll make my own thread to describe this deck at another time. But for now here's the meat and potatoes.

Lands
    1  Tolarian Academy
    1  Strip Mine
    4  Mishra's Factory
    4  Mishra's Workshop
    2  Ancient Tomb
    4  Wasteland

Creatures
    4  Myr Retriever
    4  Arcbound Ravager
    4  Metalworker
    4  Frogmite
    2  Duplicant
    3  Triskelion

Spells
    4  Skullclamp
    3  Staff of Domination
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Sol Ring
    1  Memory Jar
    4  Chalice of the Void
    1  Mana Crypt
    2  Lightning Greaves
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mana Vault

Sideboard
SB: 1  Triskelion
SB: 3  Pithing Needle
SB: 2  Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2  Orb of Dreams
SB: 1  Trinisphere
SB: 3  Sphere of Resistance
SB: 3  Crucible of Worlds

Its not MUD Staxx. But Shop-Aggro with a combo component. If you're looking for the best form of Shop domination out there, this it it. It is incredibly resilient and able to change gameplans, if necessary, on a dime.

Sofar I've won 2 pieces of power with this deck in the 4 tournaments I've been to with it. Playtest it some if you're skeptical. Its powerful and relentless.

Full writeup with credit to Serra's innovations upcoming!

I think you're spot on with your analysis, and I really like your decklist. It has some very strong synergies and looks well thought out with respect to card quantities.