[Article] The Super Long Primer, part 1

[XxtSundaybxX]

i am convinced that an older pitchlong/TPS list is a better list to run considering a much much faster combo...being able to combo out before gat can establish therye engine, or before stax can drop a magus or a 2-sphere...and your draw 7's rarely fizzle...this deck orginially stopped being played because it supposedly "lost to gat" which i completely disagree with...i have never had a problem comboing out against gat..and i think this deck should be reconsidered over superlong. i would make a few changes such as cutting the academy and the desire but playing a few basics to help the stax matchup...and not playing red for wheel or ETW...the deck is insanely fast and combos out on turn 2 majority of the time...before most decks even get a threat out.

[Stormanimagus]

i am convinced that an older pitchlong/TPS list is a better list to run considering a much much faster combo...being able to combo out before gat can establish therye engine, or before stax can drop a magus or a 2-sphere...and your draw 7's rarely fizzle...this deck orginially stopped being played because it supposedly "lost to gat" which i completely disagree with...i have never had a problem comboing out against gat..and i think this deck should be reconsidered over superlong. i would make a few changes such as cutting the academy and the desire but playing a few basics to help the stax matchup...and not playing red for wheel or ETW...the deck is insanely fast and combos out on turn 2 majority of the time...before most decks even get a threat out.

Umm. . . Sphere/Thorn comes down on turn 1. Always. So unless you have the Duress you are not going to be able to win until you remove it. I'm sorry, but right now, STAX IS still a huge contender and with all the tools to beat this deck. Tyrant Oath is arguably better against us than GAT so this deck is gonna have a tough go right now. Here's a build that I've been working on to try to address the main problems facing this deck in the near future.

Empty Combo

Land (13):
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Swamp

Mana Accel (16):
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
5 Moxen
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual

Draw/Tutor (22):
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Tinker
1 Memory Jar
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth’s Bargain
1 Wheel Of Fortune
1 Mind’s Desire
3 Street Wraith

Disruption (6):
4 Duress
1 Rebuild
1 Hurkyl’s Recall

Win Conditions (3):
1 Tendrils Of Agony
1 Empty The Warrens
1 Yawgmoth’s Will

SB
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Extirpate
3 Rack And Ruin
1 Platinum Angel
1 Ingot Chewer
2 Empty The Warrens

[XxtSundaybxX]

The deck can with through sphere, or stall tillit finds hurkyls and then eot bounce. I would rather play force than duress, duress is only good on the play and even on the play against stax its subpar. And with oath becoming good, force and misdirection will be better. Your list isa standard old grim long list.

[Stormanimagus]

The deck can with through sphere, or stall tillit finds hurkyls and then eot bounce. I would rather play force than duress, duress is only good on the play and even on the play against stax its subpar. And with oath becoming good, force and misdirection will be better. Your list isa standard old grim long list.

The problem is that Stax follows up Spheres with Juggernaut & Company now. You are not going to win around early sphere effects unless you have a permanent answer right then. Chewer is best I've found for the Chalice issue and R & R is an offensive answer that can get mulitple lock pieces off the board for good as well as Juggernauts. I suppose my list doesn't really provide an answer to Welder, but I figure you should be able to go off before Welder becomes a problem.

Duress >>> FoW against GAT and Oath because you can just know what they have to stop you and know about how to go off properly. Duress has always been an enormous help for TPS/Grim Long Variants of all kinds and you should know that being an old School TPS fan. Force is great, but I'm not sure I see room enough in the deck right now to include it. Perhaps it should be in there instead of the Street Wraiths (especially with all the Ponders I run), but I'm certainly not going to cut Duress. Duress is such an offensive weapon and becomes pretty busted when you follow it up with Extirpate the next turn. I realize that this deck WANTS to go off turn 2, but right now, given the current meta, that is just plain going to be difficult. I'd say turn 3 is more likely, but that is still solid if you have relative certainty that you WILL indeed go off and not just fizzle or meet some amazing hate. I'd rather go off turn 3 with multiple disruption backup then go off turn 1-2 without so much as a prayer against the current hate. FoW still beats us if we don't have an answer to it. Remember this. Good Long players can easily play around FoW, but that usually means not going off turn 1-2.

I too have played Long variants for a LONG time (no pun intended). It is sort of one of my babies. I'm always open to innovations on the deck, but I don't think going back to TPS is the way. Red just offers too much awesomeness for the deck and the best answers in the format in the form of:

Empty The Warrens
REB/Pyro
Rack And Ruin
Ingot Chewer

It also offers Wheel Of Fortune, which is a nice bonus.

I also don't think Ponder should be cut. Sorcery Speed = not a big deal for this deck and the digging/shuffling capability is very important for the deck. I'd almost say run 4. I do think the Wraiths should probably come out for FoW though. Wraith just isn't what it used to be in decks like this I think. I could be wrong, but I don't think it makes the cut right now.

[XxtSundaybxX]

Just like you I have been playing long for a while, all varients and I see your points. However no where did I say cut red from the deck... I love the red splash...right now I'm just not playing it to elminate chances of getting screwed my wasteland and magus. As to tps, I'm not playing tps... I'm playing pitchlong...I was playing a sngleton duress so I could tutor for it if needed. Tps is too slow...duress and fow are too sow together in a comb deck right now. And yes I good long player can play around force of will... And I can, but you can't just sit here holding your bombs tll you get a duress/fow. Yes there are times to hold back cuz you dont want to go all in, I understand but you can't be afraid. And I combo'd out againt stax with a juggs out, a. Welder, a sphere... So dont make it seem like its something that cant be done. With sphere yes it slows you down... Maybe a turn, but if they go , sphere, then juggs I'm fine with that. I also have zero prblems beating gat without duress, and with the rise of oath I think you will see less stax being played.

[Stormanimagus]

Just like you I have been playing long for a while, all varients and I see your points. However no where did I say cut red from the deck... I love the red splash...right now I'm just not playing it to elminate chances of getting screwed my wasteland and magus. As to tps, I'm not playing tps... I'm playing pitchlong...I was playing a sngleton duress so I could tutor for it if needed. Tps is too slow...duress and fow are too sow together in a comb deck right now. And yes I good long player can play around force of will... And I can, but you can't just sit here holding your bombs tll you get a duress/fow. Yes there are times to hold back cuz you dont want to go all in, I understand but you can't be afraid. And I combo'd out againt stax with a juggs out, a. Welder, a sphere... So dont make it seem like its something that cant be done. With sphere yes it slows you down... Maybe a turn, but if they go , sphere, then juggs I'm fine with that. I also have zero prblems beating gat without duress, and with the rise of oath I think you will see less stax being played.

All Good points, but I do think this deck has the juice to combo out in a timely fashion EVEN with MD FoW and Duress. Testing will have to prove that right or wrong, but I'd rather have some solid disruption as, regardless of if Stax is played less or not we'll still have some difficulties getting through Tyrant Oath or GAT's Counter wall if we don't run enough Disruption of our own. Here is a list I propose testing some more:

Empty Combo

Land (14):
4 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Tolarian Academy

Mana Accel (14):
1 Black Lotus
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
4 Dark Ritual
1 Cabal Ritual

Draw/Tutor (20):
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Wheel Of Fortune
1 Mind’s Desire
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Tinker
1 Memory Jar
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth’s Bargain

Disruption (9):
3 Duress
4 Force Of Will
1 Rebuild
1 Hurkyl’s Recall

Win Conditions (3):
1 Tendrils Of Agony
1 Empty The Warrens
1 Yawgmoth’s Will

SB
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Extirpate
3 Rack And Ruin
1 Platinum Angel
1 Ingot Chewer
2 Empty The Warrens

Some explanations:

4 Ponder- This card can be better than BS at times and adds to storm which is very important for a deck that should only need an Empty for 8-10 tokens in order to win.

3 Duress- Since I already run the 4 FoW this seemed the number to nix by 1. FoW is fine in Ponder versions because you have plenty of blue stuff to pitch. FoW is still good enough to run in combo as the number of cards you need to win shouldn't be many.

FoW- See above. Running 4 is the right call right now I think. You are free to argue against them, but they are uniquely good at stopping crazy Turn 1 Shenanigans and that still makes them necessary IMO.

Draw 7's- This config should be obvious if you are a long player. Hope I didn't leave any important ones out. Don't think I did.

1 Cabal Ritual- This could seem to be skimping a bit, but I'll usually only need to tutor this up when I have threshold and need what amounts to essentially a second Lotus. That's why I only run 1 MD. To run more than 1 seems like a bad idea to me.

0 off color Moxen- I could get flack for this, but I'd rather have only moxen useful to my colors and just run more land. Basics are at a premium in Vintage right now do to Magus of the moon so I'll choose to run 3 minimum in this deck. That, unfortunately means a lack full moxen. This might be a wrong decision, but I like more aggressive mana bases and more efficient use of moxen.

0 Scroll- Sans the Gush engine Scrolls seem kinda pointless.

SB

Now here are the more interesting choices to deal with:

4 Extirpate- I don't understand why people think that LLotV is the only way to deal with Ichorid. It isn't. If you nab the important cards against that deck there's little they can do to stop your combo before they die.

4 REB- Obviously for GAT and Tyrant Oath.

3 Rack And Ruin- This is an interesting choice. I like it though. It is a proactive answer to Stax that really puts them on tilt.

1 Ingot Chewer- Chalice @1? No problem.

1 Platinum Angel- Tinker it up vs. Ichorid and other matchups where they probably won't have a timely answer

2 Empty The Warrens- Jester's Cap and Earwig Squad Protection

[XxtSundaybxX]

Well you too make some good points. I will explain what i agree and disagree with. I do agree with the red splash and after testing i will be adding red in, red = more bombs. Im not sure if i like empty or not ive been testing 2x tendrils and its working...i can mini tendrils or its been popping up before i crack jar very frequently so ill see how that goes However i do disagree with the badlands and the volcanic...just play the badlands...its another black source so they cant cut you out of black and running 2 extra duals is bad the stax matchup. i agree with 3 basics as im also playing 3. As you mentioned about the low cabal ritual count i do disagree and feel that more than one should be played. The off color moxen debate has been going on ever since super long was established...i go both ways on this decision...sometimes i hate drawing all of those extra moxen but they make your draw 7's stronger because they give you colorless mana for your tutors. i will however keep testing your list and maybe mess around with the disruption suite as im running 4x FoW and 2x MisD and 1x Duress as of now...let me know

[Negator13]

If Spheres/Thorns are a big concern, it seems to me that running the full set of moxen would be a great way to combat them. If I were to play Storm Combo in this metagame it would probably look like old school TPS with Ponder, that is; the full suite of artifact acceleration, 3-4 basics, and some number of Chain of Vapor/Hurkyl's/Rebuild. I'd feel pretty good taking that deck into a Shop-heavy metagame.

[XxtSundaybxX]

The only problem with that is, chalice at 0 is huge right now and with thorns it makes all those free artifacts cost more mana...its a personal choice i guess for now im running a full artifact acceleration

[mrrstn]

@kobefan- Great Primer!
Am seriously thinking of playing combo soon and was tinkering with your list for sometime since it doesn't make use of all the P9, and as such, would be good for starters like me who currently have only 2 power i.e. sapphire and Recall.
Would the following do as replacements for the Lotus, Jet, Twister, Walk and Seal? Why or why not?

Black Lotus- LED
Mox Jet- Lotus Petal
Twister- 4th Ponder or Misdirection
Walk- 4th Ponder or Misdirection
Imperial Seal - Personal Tutor

[XxtSundaybxX]

LED is no replacement for lotus...this deck needs lotus. The problem with lotus petal is its a one time source...but I suppose you could make it work. I would not see cutting twister unless it was for another bomb,seeing as the deck is bomb light as it is. People have been testing gifts and FoF in this slot but you can make that call. As for the imp seal it could certainly be cut but it has good synergy with ponder however I dont think that personal tutor is the best replacement I would suggest grim tutor but if you dont have one then play another ponder or another bomb...wheel of fortune is pretty good too

[hauntedechos]

Would the inclusion of 2 Nights Whisper be the end of the world for this deck?  I am trying to find a way to address the card advantage issue of this deck.  I know that 2 Night's Whisper does not mean the deck will conquer the issue, it's just an attempt to lessen this lacking traits impact on the decks "streaky" feel.

Haunted.

[Lou]

Would the inclusion of 2 Nights Whisper be the end of the world for this deck?  I am trying to find a way to address the card advantage issue of this deck.  I know that 2 Night's Whisper does not mean the deck will conquer the issue, it's just an attempt to lessen this lacking traits impact on the decks "streaky" feel.

Haunted.

No, the inclusion of two Nights Whisper would not be the end of the world for this deck, but it probably wouldn't help like you want it to. This deck loves its card quality, not card quantity.

You use Brainstorm and Ponder to this end. You sculpt the perfect hand or top or your library, not draw a ton of cards and win on the back of card advantage.

[Stormanimagus]

Would the inclusion of 2 Nights Whisper be the end of the world for this deck?  I am trying to find a way to address the card advantage issue of this deck.  I know that 2 Night's Whisper does not mean the deck will conquer the issue, it's just an attempt to lessen this lacking traits impact on the decks "streaky" feel.

Haunted.

No, the inclusion of two Nights Whisper would not be the end of the world for this deck, but it probably wouldn't help like you want it to. This deck loves its card quality, not card quantity.

You use Brainstorm and Ponder to this end. You sculpt the perfect hand or top or your library, not draw a ton of cards and win on the back of card advantage.

Yeah, well said. Ponder is plenty of draw and hand sculpting added into the deck. The big question is: How do I beat decks like Oath or GAT that run a million counters, and how do I beat 9-sphere? Folks, I think we have to go old school with something like this:

Grim Long

Land (11):
4 City Of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine
3 Forbidden Orchard
1 Tolarian Academy

Artifacts (12):
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lion’s Eye Diamond
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Memory Jar

Creatures (3):
3 Xantid Swarm

Instants (14):
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Hurkyl’s Recall

Sorceries (18):
3 Duress
4 Ponder
1 Tinker
1 Mind’s Desire
1 Wheel Of Fortune
1 Timetwister
2 Grim Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Tendrils Of Agony
1 Empty The Warrens

Enchantments (2):
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth’s Bargain

SB
4 Extirpate
4 Ingot Chewer
2 Empty The Warrens
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Cabal Ritual
1 Xantid Swarm
2 Simian Spirit Guide

Now with this build your options are many. Forbidden Orchard is a very nice little tool to keep Oath from going off until you are sure you can go off. The 5-color manabase helps you support Xantid Swarm AND Ingot Chewer from the SB. Now, I'm sure there are things about this deck taht could be tweaked/improved, but I do have reasons for every card choice.

4 Ingot Chewer - The best answer I can think of to Spheres or Thorns. He'll only cost 1 to evoke with Thorn out and if they drop a sphere than he'll still only cost 2 to destroy it. Late game against Stax he can swing for 3 and that is not irrelevant. The only other replacement might be Ancient Grudge as you can do it eot in order to combo out the next turn. This guy may still be better though.

3/1 Xantid Swarm - Forget what I said before. Having this guy MD is good. This card is a key to victory and I'm sorry I forgot about it.

2 Simian Spirit Guide - This guy comes in against Stax to play Chewer when they've wasted your lands. It has other rolls as well  for the Stax matchup in being a mana source that doesn't get affected by sphere. I might even think of running more SB.

1 Cabal Ritual - I figure 1 more SB should be good if I expect to see some Chalice @1.

1 Darksteel Colossus. A great way to beat jank hate decks. They think this guy is dead, but oh how wrong they are. He doesn't die to most artifact hate (except bounce) and he MUST be dealt with within a turn or 2.

2 Empty the Warrens. Mostly for decks running Earwig Squad, Jester's Cap or Meddling Mage. Most often the Mage will name Tendrils and it is at this point that you'll want to resolve a warrens for a lot as quickly as possible. Also, don't discount the plan of resolving street wraith. He has swampwalk folks.

4 Extirpate - I'm really not sure about this choice for the SB but removing FoW, Gush, or other disruption seems like a solid plan the turn before going off. But again, this could be a wrong choice and these 3 slots could be put somewhere else. Tinker targets? For alternate Wins?

[Stormanimagus]

Made a couple changes to the list above guys. I think that Street Wraith really isn't needed and the deck can go off by turn 2-3 just fine with Xantid/Duress backup. I feel a lot safer going into a wall of counters/hate if, well. . . my opponent can't cast them. Xantid is still a one-of-a-kind card and I think it needs to be MD as about 60-75 percent of most decks run Force Of Will I'd say. I also think that if I cut the Wraith I must up the Ponder count to 4 for consistency. I think the deck is ready now. Lock and Load. Any more suggestions/thoughts?

More Hurkyl's SB instead of Ingot Chewer? I dunno. The Chewer does seem quite solid as less Stax decks are as reliant  (or even play) Welder any more. Seems like Chewer can stop the Sphere and that in the turn I'll have to pass the worst they can do is just drop another. . . which I'll eat as well. If they drop welder on their turn and no sphere I'll just go off in their face. If they drop BOTH? Well, then I'm in a bit more trouble, but that just means I'll have to Chew next turn AND go off in their face. I dunno. Could Grudge or more Hurkyl's be better?

[ErkBek]

I never tested Street Wraith, but in theory it seems really bad.

1) The deck wins a considerable amount of games on Necro and Bargain
2) Street Wraith clogs up Brainstorms and Ponders

Beyond that randomly losing 2 life and potentially pumping opposing goyfs seems like a bad idea.

[Stormanimagus]

I never tested Street Wraith, but in theory it seems really bad.

1) The deck wins a considerable amount of games on Necro and Bargain
2) Street Wraith clogs up Brainstorms and Ponders

Beyond that randomly losing 2 life and potentially pumping opposing goyfs seems like a bad idea.

Agreed. I think this proves that cards are not always what they seem because I do remember Menendian's article on Street Wraith saying it was an auto-include in every Vintage Combo deck. It is certainly a possilbe card in Combo, but Ponder just seems better most of the time.  Any more thoughts on my build/ Sideboard in particular?

[XxtSundaybxX]

I think the Xantid swarm is interesting, i mean for a while the format was way to fast for it to even make a difference if the swarm hit play or not but seeing as the format has slowed down soo much i think it could be a definite possibility. As far as the mana base goes, i understand this is the old 5c long mana base but with stax being such a huge contender is it really worth it?  Your playing UBr Grim long with splash red for 3 Xantid swarm, is that really necessary? Also im not sure if the exclusion of Force of Will is worth it...i personally like having force against decks like stax to counter that first 2 sphere  and then combo out on my turn...

[Stormanimagus]

I think the Xantid swarm is interesting, i mean for a while the format was way to fast for it to even make a difference if the swarm hit play or not but seeing as the format has slowed down soo much i think it could be a definite possibility. As far as the mana base goes, i understand this is the old 5c long mana base but with stax being such a huge contender is it really worth it?  Your playing UBr Grim long with splash red for 3 Xantid swarm, is that really necessary? Also im not sure if the exclusion of Force of Will is worth it...i personally like having force against decks like stax to counter that first 2 sphere  and then combo out on my turn...

I understand your points, but my version is based on raw Card Avantage wins and FoW does not provide that. If you force their turn 1 sphere, odds are that you are NOT going off turn 2. Ingot Chewer is our SB answer to Turn 1 Sphere (another possibility is more Hurkyl's or Ancient Grudge) and it allows us to possibly even go off THAT TURN if the sphere is simply a Thorn Of Amethyst. Chewer is also a threat later in the game if you can't quite kill them off tendrils.

As for the manabase. If you are going to run 11 land (as I think this deck really must in order to be consistent) and run at least 3 colors (as I think this deck must as well right now. Splashing Red for REB or Green for Xantid is an option that is up to you, but I do think you have to splash one or the other or both), then why not just run 5-color lands instead of fetch-duals that lowers consistency? Besides, EVEN WITH the fetching for basics plan you'll only have 1-2 basics and that is not necessarily good enough against Stax anyway. This deck doesn't really need land to stick in order to win. You often need 1 (perhaps 2) land out in order to combo off. I don't think wasteland really hurts this deck at all unless it is coupled with Crucible and I pity the fool who plays Crucible on turn 1 instead of Sphere as I will proceed to go off in their face.

Forbidden Orchard's ability to stall Oath is actually not irrelevant right now as Oath has really grown into a powerhouse. Don't forget that part. I know the 5-color manabase looks sloppy on paper, but it works just fine. Trust me.

We have tons of other accelerators in the deck (the most in the format next to STAX and that doesn't really count) such that I'd be far more scared of Null Rod than Wasteland.

[XxtSundaybxX]

what are you siding reb in against?

I mean you already have red maindeck for wheel so your not really splashing...also ive never sided reb's and ive never needed them either...there arent any matchups where you would need reb to win.

And as far as green i see no reason on why you NEED to splash green or red or both. You dont NEED xantid swarm.

There are alot of creatures running around in the format so the chances of you winning with an ingot chewer late game are slim to none. If you cant finish them with tendrils then you shouldnt go for the combo...and you also have empty if needed.

[Stormanimagus]

what are you siding reb in against?

I mean you already have red maindeck for wheel so your not really splashing...also ive never sided reb's and ive never needed them either...there arent any matchups where you would need reb to win.

And as far as green i see no reason on why you NEED to splash green or red or both. You dont NEED xantid swarm.

There are alot of creatures running around in the format so the chances of you winning with an ingot chewer late game are slim to none. If you cant finish them with tendrils then you shouldnt go for the combo...and you also have empty if needed.

Well, I wasn't actually Implying that you'd often be using the Chewer as a Win Condition, I was just saying not to rule it out. Sometimes Stax players can't find a dude, and a 3/3 beater can be a clock. A slow clock, but a clock nonetheless. But you get my argument about Chewer. He's in there to eat either Chalice @1 or any Thorns. He has a slightly harder time eating Sphere of Resistance, but that is not a big deal, you just have to wait one extra turn. If we are talking about an average opening for the STAX opponent they should, on average be playing 1 sphere effect in the first 2-3 turns. 1 Ingot Chewer evoking for R (or R1 with sphere itself on the board) should be enough to clear the way in order to go off. Now, obviously I'm talking about an average scenario, but that's why we have 4 SB and Guide to help get the red to play them. That is the STAX plan right now. Any better ideas?

[XxtSundaybxX]

i do see your point on chewer i was just stating a general observation. i am by no means saying its bad. to be honest with you i dont even remember what i sided in against stax when i used to play old school long...flux is really bad because of the 3cc and you only run 11 lands so its not a good option. ive always found that chain of vapor and hurkyls and simply boarding in another hurkyls to be enough to get the job done...and call it luck or call it what you want but ive turn 1'd so many stax decks so ive never had to deal with it really. something i have been giving some thought is that misdirection isnt very big right now and thoughtseize is much better card than duress in the current format...especially agasint stax...ive taken so many welders,karns its not even funny...i mean theres some life loss but i dont think its as significant since your not running fetchlands...it kind of equals out although you are running city of brass. this format is so lame im having a hard time finding a deck to play and as much as i LOVE playing combo i  just dont know if its in the cards right now.