[Article] The Super Long Primer, part 1

[ErkBek]

Grim Long pretty much can't beat GAT if the game goes past turn 2. You can't play a deck that has a terrible matchup against the best and most widely played deck in the format. Maxing out on Rituals is (28-30 mana sources) runs you into a problem of keeping up with GAT's card efficiency.

Well, that is to say that, GrimLong isn't built to win on any other turns besides turn one and turn two.  After that, GrimLong sucks against just about anything, except Dorothy the Goldfish.

This is a terrible misconception. I'd bet that I win more than 2/3's of actual games after turn 2 with Grim Long. Combo is often times a battle of resources, much of the time you are better off developing a inevitable win that can't be stopped.

I'm not sure it's fair to compare the off color Moxen in other Long builds with the Rituals in SuperLong.  The other Long builds also run Rituals, so it's more accurate to describe it as -3 moxes, +3 Ponder.

In other news, the website seems to have changed and the link to the articles section is, uh, gone?

That's why I tried to make the comparison with MDG, not Long.

I don't know what's happened to the site. Hopefully, they can get it together soon.

[Moxlotus]

Well, that is to say that, GrimLong isn't built to win on any other turns besides turn one and turn two.  After that, GrimLong sucks against just about anything, except Dorothy the Goldfish.

I played through probably around 30 rounds of tournament play with Pitch Long (built to be faster than Grim Long) and I doubt I had more than 4 turn 1 kills.  As Eric said, the vast majority of games I won were after after turn 2 since you can't always just goldfish and go all in without backup against decks you know that have countermagic.  You build until you can't be stopped.

From my testing, SuperLong is much more stable than GrimLong but feels simply underpowered compared to PitchLong decks from a few months ago.  However, the stable mana base makes SL strictly better than GL against the rising Stax/9-sphere MUD decks

This is so true.  The deck is much more underpowered than previous storm decks, but it is very stable.

[ErkBek]

MTGChicago's site is having some problems. Being the week of Christmas they might not get fixed until next week.

I'm hoping that things will get taken care of Wednesday or Thursday though. Either way when they do get fixed I'll have a double feature.

[Solomox]

Just to put in my two cents, I have noticed this:  aside from the obvious points, Super Long is way more consistent than previous Long decks.  It has lost a lot of explosiveness, but has gained consistency.  This seems to be the battle going on with most decks now.  They are starting to trade explosiveness for consistency.  With all of the Spheres running rampant nowadays consistency seems to be the way to go.  Between  4 FoW's, 4 Duresses, and 2 Thoughtseizes you have a better chance of living to kill your opponent.  I wonder though, will there ever be a happy medium between explosiveness and consistency?  If so, this deck seems closest to it.  Any thoughts? 

[hauntedechos]

just my 2 cents as a developing storm player:  I have never played either Grim Long or Pitch Long, but I do feel VERY comfortable with this deck.  I belive the reason behind this is that I've played U/W/B Fish for a couple of years and understanding trying to control the game state while a clock is running.  When I play this deck I feel that there is a similarity in FEEL.  With "super Long"(please change that name someone) I feel that I am spending 2-3 turns sculpting a hand, controling my opponents hand and plays and on turn 4 (usually the latest) I'm dropping a bomb that just seems to win me the game on the spot.  While I'm sculpting, it feels like I have my opponent on a clock he doesn't know about.  In the other hand I've had the nuts, Duressed to clear the way for a leathal Tendrils and then managed to Tinker in the Tin man AND Timewalk after the tendrils for an additional 11 points!!(not that they count or apply, it was just to rub it in!)  True that wasn't in tournament play, but it does show the viability of this deck.

I've never had an issue with card advantage with this deck (which is something that Eric addresses in the Tropical storm thread), as I've always sculpted my hand, versus leaning on mass card draw to find a path to victory.

cheers
Mike.

[mistervader]

I have a slight problem, which is mainly I don't have a Time Walk.

I was wondering what could work as a good substitute for it, and I ended up with three candidates...

1. Mind's Desire
2. Fact or Fiction
3. the 4th Ponder

What do you think would go well there?

[ErkBek]

I have a slight problem, which is mainly I don't have a Time Walk.

I was wondering what could work as a good substitute for it, and I ended up with three candidates...

1. Mind's Desire
2. Fact or Fiction
3. the 4th Ponder

What do you think would go well there?

4th Ponder or a 2nd Misdirection.

[mistervader]

I take it MD and FoF cost too much mana to be worth it, hence Ponder/MisD?

[hauntedechos]

@ mistervader:  I have a MD fact or fiction to add to the card drawing aspect.  You could try to add the 4th Ponder in, but the list that I run, already has a 2nd Misdirection and has the Fact or Fiction.  it's not terrible, but nothing special either, mainly fills the yard quicker really.

[mistervader]

@ mistervader:  I have a MD fact or fiction to add to the card drawing aspect.  You could try to add the 4th Ponder in, but the list that I run, already has a 2nd Misdirection and has the Fact or Fiction.  it's not terrible, but nothing special either, mainly fills the yard quicker really.

What did you take out for the 2nd MisD and the Fact from the previous list?

Also, I take it Mind's Desire just really isn't worth it? I tested thirty games today, and each time, I tried using Mind's D when I can combo out, and the effects are always lackluster. Or should I test a few more games to be sure?

[hauntedechos]

@mistervader:  I don't own a Time twister and I don't own a mana crypt.

[j0bril]

Eric,

What are you thoughts on Street Wraith in a Long type storm build such as "Super Long" ?  It seems to make the topdeck tutors that much better, thins the deck out without a mana investment, and adds an alternate win condition.  It works great with Ponder.  Also, since Mind's Desire is not included in the build, flipping a Street Wraith is not an issue (one of the reasons I cut it from my storm testing).  Do you feel that the life loss is too much?

Very nicely written and informative article by the way.

[hauntedechos]

@ j0bril:  I can't speak for Eric, but I would think that with the fetch lands and the Force of wills and necropotence and vampiric tutor, Street wraith might be pushing the loss of life envelope too far, especially when you consider using your life under necropotence, and trying to maximixe the number of cards you can draw.  just my 2 cents, and once again I'm no Eric Becker.

[ErkBek]

Eric,

What are you thoughts on Street Wraith in a Long type storm build such as "Super Long" ?  It seems to make the topdeck tutors that much better, thins the deck out without a mana investment, and adds an alternate win condition.  It works great with Ponder.  Also, since Mind's Desire is not included in the build, flipping a Street Wraith is not an issue (one of the reasons I cut it from my storm testing).  Do you feel that the life loss is too much?

Very nicely written and informative article by the way.

So many of your wins come from Necro or Bargain, which Street Wraith is very anti synergistic with.

There's a lot of creatures in the format right now, so games were you hit double street wraith you really hurts.

Street Wraith sucks to have in your top 3 cards when you cast Ponder or Brainstorm.

Thanks for the feedback.

[XxtSundaybxX]

I've been testing this deck extensively...and it is very clunky so i'm trying to find a way to make the deck run a little smoother. I'm torn between two  different lists right now...The two lists are the UB list and the UBR list. They both have different card choices to offer.  The UB list offers a more solid mana base which Becker has already pointed out, and it has Gifts. The UBR list still has a great mana base but it allows you to run wheel of fortune...an amazing bomb. So which list do i run? Which Bomb is better? I really like gifts because it has a higher chance of winning the game for a few reasons. One reason is it doesnt give your opponent a fresh 7 cards to try and stop you from comboing out. Also since this list is clunky draw 7's have a tendancy to fizzle or come very close with much luck. However Gifts costs 1 more mana which may or may not effect the outcome of the game.  Wheel of Fortune Fills up your yard for YawgWill and gets you 7 more cards to try and combo out and with so much disruption you have a good chance of drawing some defense to help you win. Another downside to the UBR list is the use of more non basic lands weakening you to wastelands from stax. They both have ups and downs. Ive cut the minds desire and 1 misdirection for mana vault...also playing the lotus petal and i also added a grim tutor...which so far has been very good. So which Bomb is better Gifts or Wheel??

[Webster]

I've been testing this deck extensively...and it is very clunky so i'm trying to find a way to make the deck run a little smoother. I'm torn between two  different lists right now...The two lists are the UB list and the UBR list. They both have different card choices to offer.  The UB list offers a more solid mana base which Becker has already pointed out, and it has Gifts. The UBR list still has a great mana base but it allows you to run wheel of fortune...an amazing bomb. So which list do i run? Which Bomb is better? I really like gifts because it has a higher chance of winning the game for a few reasons. One reason is it doesnt give your opponent a fresh 7 cards to try and stop you from comboing out. Also since this list is clunky draw 7's have a tendancy to fizzle or come very close with much luck. However Gifts costs 1 more mana which may or may not effect the outcome of the game.  Wheel of Fortune Fills up your yard for YawgWill and gets you 7 more cards to try and combo out and with so much disruption you have a good chance of drawing some defense to help you win. Another downside to the UBR list is the use of more non basic lands weakening you to wastelands from stax. They both have ups and downs. Ive cut the minds desire and 1 misdirection for mana vault...also playing the lotus petal and i also added a grim tutor...which so far has been very good. So which Bomb is better Gifts or Wheel??

If you take a few minutes to go read the thread again as well as the other superlong thread, you'll see that this topic has been brought up and discussed. Wheel isn't that good because of the way the deck plays out. The deck sets up a protected win over the course of a few turns. Giving your opponent a fresh 7 cards when you aren't going to win on the current turn is not a hot idea.

I'd play gifts before I played wheel. Gifts is very expensive and has been so-so for me, but it functions better in this deck than wheel would.

[XxtSundaybxX]

Who is to say im not going to win on the current turn? thats what the deck does...i mean there is going to be times when you draw a handful of junk...it happens...with every deck. Giving your opponent a fresh 7 cards may or may not always be the worst decision...especially if gat has just sculpted theyre hand...you just give them a random 7. And i also stated that gifts was a little expensive but it seems like a very viable bomb that sets you up for the win... I'm just trying to get opinions to build the most optimal deck

[desolutionist]

I've been testing this deck extensively...and it is very clunky so i'm trying to find a way to make the deck run a little smoother. I'm torn between two  different lists right now...The two lists are the UB list and the UBR list. They both have different card choices to offer.  The UB list offers a more solid mana base which Becker has already pointed out, and it has Gifts. The UBR list still has a great mana base but it allows you to run wheel of fortune...an amazing bomb. So which list do i run? Which Bomb is better? I really like gifts because it has a higher chance of winning the game for a few reasons. One reason is it doesnt give your opponent a fresh 7 cards to try and stop you from comboing out. Also since this list is clunky draw 7's have a tendancy to fizzle or come very close with much luck. However Gifts costs 1 more mana which may or may not effect the outcome of the game.  Wheel of Fortune Fills up your yard for YawgWill and gets you 7 more cards to try and combo out and with so much disruption you have a good chance of drawing some defense to help you win. Another downside to the UBR list is the use of more non basic lands weakening you to wastelands from stax. They both have ups and downs. Ive cut the minds desire and 1 misdirection for mana vault...also playing the lotus petal and i also added a grim tutor...which so far has been very good. So which Bomb is better Gifts or Wheel??

If you take a few minutes to go read the thread again as well as the other superlong thread, you'll see that this topic has been brought up and discussed. Wheel isn't that good because of the way the deck plays out. The deck sets up a protected win over the course of a few turns. Giving your opponent a fresh 7 cards when you aren't going to win on the current turn is not a hot idea.

I'd play gifts before I played wheel. Gifts is very expensive and has been so-so for me, but it functions better in this deck than wheel would.

Wheel of Fortune and any other Draw7 are at their best against GAT.  They're only committing 1-2 lands while you are putting down more lands AND artifact accelerants.  You generate too much card advantage off a Wheel to omit it. (Also, The "fresh 7" argument really doesn't have any merit when your opponent already has 7 cards in hand.) I think in practice also, Wheel is clearly better than Gifts; Gifts is somewhat clunky in a deck that isn't designed to abuse it.

[hauntedechos]

My 2 cents:

I can see the additional card draw from Wheel.  However Wheel alone is NOT worth the splash of R.  Possible SB considerations might encourage the use of R but certainly not for Wheel alone.

In consideration of Gifts:  I've never tapped out lands and moxen to pay for Gifts.  Consider that you will typically have a moxen or ring or vault out, a couple lands and the use of a dark ritual.  From this position, you will typically have one or two mana sources available to either Brainstorm/Ponder into other cards and in most cases I find myself drawing into more acceleration.

If you've selected Demonic, Vampiric, Dark Ritual, Black Lotus: considering you will most likely have a Ponder or Brainstorm in hand, you should be able to win on the spot really, via a Will Kill.
Of course Will Kills are not the only way to set up a win with Gifts Ungiven, I was just trying to illustrate one easily executed win.  I feel that I'd rather Gifts than use Jar to get me the win and in fact the draw 7's seem subpar in this deck.  They are subpar wether you add R or not, and wheel is subpar in this deck as well.  The issue with this deck is the lack of card advantage as Eric has already stated.  He has attempted to deal with this matter with The Tropical Storm deck, but for thoes that don't wish to add G and Fastbond etc.  consider the use of other draw cards.  The problem I have with draw 7's is that I rarely see a winning line of play, and in the end serve no greater purpose than to A) let me see many cards I would not have normally, which is still a very good thing I understand, it just doesn't have the same conequence to your opponent as they do in real Long builds B) Fill up my yard for an explosive Will Kill.  In the case of B) Gifts does this much quicker and accurately for me.

It seems to me, that the way to play this deck, is to Tutor for the bomb that you plan on winning with, then protect it.  Because you aren't.....Long, card advantage only helps you in terms of gathering the protection spells you need, and scultping the hand that will allow the bomb you've decided on.  In this deck the card advantage rarely chains together to storm w/o Will, even though I've managed it many times, it's still more rare than the times in which I've A) Tinker->DSC then Timewalk B) Necropotence, win the next turn c) Turn 3 Gifts for a protected Will Kill or even D) turn 3 Will kill with rituals and cantrips and tutors in the yard.

Rarely do I use my Tinker for Jar, as I'd much rather go ahead with DSC and protect him for the win.  2 swings for him is game, Tinker for Jar means I wait another turn to crack it, and then kinda...just..see what I get sort of thing.  In that case I have burned up an accelerant and now look at Will to get it back, or Will to Storm up the win.

Anyways, I feel that I am rambling on now.
Michael

[Webster]

Wheel of Fortune and any other Draw7 are at their best against GAT.  They're only committing 1-2 lands while you are putting down more lands AND artifact accelerants.  You generate too much card advantage off a Wheel to omit it. (Also, The "fresh 7" argument really doesn't have any merit when your opponent already has 7 cards in hand.) I think in practice also, Wheel is clearly better than Gifts; Gifts is somewhat clunky in a deck that isn't designed to abuse it.

This deck doesn't really care how many cards the opponent has in hand; what it does care about is how many action cards it has which it has been striping away with duress/thoughtseize. Wheel works against the deck's goal of using redundant duress effects to turn the opponent into a goldfish.

As I already said so far, gifts has been so-so for me, but I'll play it over wheel in SuperLong every time.

[Wobbles]

I'm getting ready for an upcoming vintage tourniment and I've been practicing with different builds of Super Long. After working with the deck, I had a few questions that weren't adressed in the primer. Some of these might be addressed in part 2, so if you have a saved copy of that, I'd love a chance to read it. MTGchicago seems to have gone on an indefinate hiatus. Anyway:

Why Memory Jar?

Why only one merchant scroll? Scrolling for Hurkyl's Recall seems like your only out to chalice for 1.

Goblines is prevalent in my meta, and it seems like a difficult matchup if they start with a leyline. Any md/sb suggestions?

Thanks

[ErkBek]

Why Memory Jar?

Why only one merchant scroll? Scrolling for Hurkyl's Recall seems like your only out to chalice for 1.

Goblines is prevalent in my meta, and it seems like a difficult matchup if they start with a leyline. Any md/sb suggestions?

Jar is the draw 7 with the least amount of fizzles since you get to untap and have full mana on your jar hand.

1 Scroll is really that's all there is space for. I definitely wouldn't run more than 2, since you never want to draw multiples. Really you're looking at a Scroll vs. Ponder split. I like the 3 Ponder, 1 Scroll split.

If goblins is proving to be a problem for you, you might want to run the red splash so you can board Clasm.

[hauntedechos]

@Eric:

I would have to agree on the plit.  one merchant scoll finds me the instant that I am looking for and puts it into my hand.  Most times it's a tutor for Gifts, but early its a tutor for Ancestrall.

In concerns with Jar:  I don't care for Jar in this deck, but I do see what Eric is saying.  It's got he most solidity of all draw 7's in concerns with options to pass for untapped mana.  If you had to incude draw 7's then this one adds flexability in terms of trying to maximize the 7 with available mana sources to try and see more cards or try and go off.

[mistervader]

I've made substitutions in testing so far with the Power pieces I lack, but I felt the urge to cut one card from the list just to make room for the two bombs I tried to squeeze in.

Since I didn't have Walk, I've been testing Mind's Desire and Fact or Fiction in the slot. Both have their uses, but I felt the need to have both in the deck, just to increase the threat density.

Both cards have their merits, but I honestly felt there's a better card to cut for either of 'em than Ponder, because POnder has been so good to me. The card quality I get from it and BS is just unignorable.

[XxtSundaybxX]

I have found that minds desire is not all that great without chain of vapor and tolarian academy. However Tolarian academy is not all that great without a full set of moxen and mana vault. I have been playing mana vault in my list as well as lotus petal and it has been incredible...its another mana source but it leaves you more mana floating after a draw 7 or any other bomb. It also serves as another artifact to tinker away. I i would like to find a way to fit minds desire into the deck but the more i think about it and the more changes i make i find myself trying to turn this deck into long whether it be grimlong or pitchlong. As much as i loved playing both grimlong and pitchlong i just dont feel they are capable of hanging with GAT at the moment. Superlong just creates more card advantage than older long lists to allow you to keep up with GAT. GAT was always a hard matchup for long. However if adding chain of vapor and Tolarian Academy can still keep up with GAT i would love to play minds desire...its an insane bomb...as long as you hit a bomb or a win off it.

[mistervader]

I'm not running a Hurklyl's in favor of Chain, actually...

[XxtSundaybxX]

i dont feel CoV alone is enough...Which moxen are you playing and are you playing academy?

[mistervader]

The BLue, the Black, not running Academy at the moment because I don't see too many artifacts to put to use.

That being said, it's not so hard to cast Mind's D after a good Brainstorm or Gifts. It's the pitiful lack of good things to flip that ruins it for me, though, remedied by adding at least one more FoF for threat density (But more threats are always good.).

[XxtSundaybxX]

I did test minds desire in the beginning and yes the flipping of threats is a problem but i also casting desire is on most occasions at best possible on turn 3...most consistently. If you draw the nuts with a lotus and a ritual and some artifacts than you can power it out on turn 1 or 2. But on most occasions its gonna be turn 3 or later... turn 1 land, turn 2 land giving you the UU for desire and then the 3rd land for B to cast ritual or mana vault or any other mana producing source to allow you to get to 6 mana...especially not to flip anything to the desire and fizzle when you could have casted another bomb and won the game. And if we go with your scenario...lets say we casted a gifts thats 3U...now assuming you casted that on turn 2 you used a ritual...so you would need 2 in hand...or mana crypt or vault....now im not saying its not possible to get those nutty draws cuz i for one will say i love getting that turn 1 desire for 7 or 8 but its not likely...especially in a deck like this. So ive been trying to thin the deck out and fit in desire, trying to find a happy medium between this and pitchlong. which abused desire insanely much like grimlong did.

[mistervader]

I did test minds desire in the beginning and yes the flipping of threats is a problem but i also casting desire is on most occasions at best possible on turn 3...most consistently. If you draw the nuts with a lotus and a ritual and some artifacts than you can power it out on turn 1 or 2. But on most occasions its gonna be turn 3 or later... turn 1 land, turn 2 land giving you the UU for desire and then the 3rd land for B to cast ritual or mana vault or any other mana producing source to allow you to get to 6 mana...especially not to flip anything to the desire and fizzle when you could have casted another bomb and won the game. And if we go with your scenario...lets say we casted a gifts thats 3U...now assuming you casted that on turn 2 you used a ritual...so you would need 2 in hand...or mana crypt or vault....now im not saying its not possible to get those nutty draws cuz i for one will say i love getting that turn 1 desire for 7 or 8 but its not likely...especially in a deck like this. So ive been trying to thin the deck out and fit in desire, trying to find a happy medium between this and pitchlong. which abused desire insanely much like grimlong did.

Yeah. With only so many bombs, flipping anything worthwhile with the usual Desire for 3 or 4 is sub-optimal. I'm almost tempted to just put back a Ponder, at this point.

Given the CC difference, I feel that FoF is still better than Mind's D in the long run.