A New Vintage Playable Counterspell [Warning: Morningtide Spoiler Included]

[namproduct]

Negate   1U
Instant 
Counter target noncreature spell.
Masters of the arcane savor a delicious irony. Their study of deep and complex arcana leads to such a simple end: the ability to merely say yes or no
(Source: MTGSalvation)

Seems it can replace Mana Leak in Oath deck. If Fact or Fiction is unrestricted as what Team Meandeck has been promoting over the last few months, will it be a solid card in the new BBS build? Discuss.

[rkmancer]

I rarely see any oath player use additional counter such mana leak after 4 FoW today. .
Some used 2-3 Misdirection and the others play a bunch of Duress / Thoughtseize. .
And for the the others. .for a  counter spell I'll prefer to use Delay / Remand
depend on my deck's need. .

There's a time that some creatures must be countered *magus of the moon for example*
and this card simply can do that thing. .I don't mean to argue your post topic but
if you try to play some spell that able to counter. .maybe it'll be a better option. .

=======================================================
Declaration of Naught         
Enchantment                    Rare
As Declaration of Naught comes into play, name a card.
: Counter target spell with the same name as the named card.

*just a thought. .

[xycsoscyx]

rkmancer, are you saying Declaration of Naught is better?  Hardly, it's a limited Meddling Mage that requires mana to use, AND can't beat for 2.

Actually, I think Negate is a solid spell (oooh, if only it cantriped).  Especially in Oath, like the OP stated, I could easily see it finding a home.  It counters almost anything you want to counter, and for everything else there is Force of Will. 

[someone_unimportan]

Declaration of Naught has some pretty cool interactions with Storm cards though. This is more relevant in Standard, but you can machine gun EtW copies. However, in Vintage, Remand, Mana Leak, Memory Lapse, Delay, etc ... I think all of these are better than both the new cards. Creatures are quite relevant, and UUU: Counter 1, maybe 2 spells isn't anything worth getting excited over.

[Vegeta2711]

We already have 4 billion 1U garbage counters to pick from whatever specific lucksackery you'd like to situationally counter.

[hauntedechos]

LOL with Vegeta2711, true enough my friend, heh heh heh, I just like the way you put it.

[meadbert]

I disagree with Josh here.  Not being able to counter creatures is certainly a limitation but it does not kill the card.  After all Duress has remained one of the most highly placed cards despite the fact that it cannot take creatures.

Also this card is idea for Ancestral wars since the very common play of:
Turn 1 Mox, Island, Scroll->Ancetral
Turn 2 Island, Ancestral (counter backup)

Also if your opponent scrolls for Ancestral then you can have additional counter backup after just a turn.

This still counters Yawg, Ancestral and Tinker and could be interesting in that it gives you a counterspell on turn 1 against Stax.

The fact that turn 1 Scroll->Force has supposedly been a good plan for Stax and Long in the past suggests to me that this card could have some uses.

Even against creature heavy decks there are almost always plenty of non creature spells to counter so it is not like this will clog up your hand any more than Duress fizzles when you opponent has no creature.

[diopter]

I disagree with Josh here.  Not being able to counter creatures is certainly a limitation but it does not kill the card.  After all Duress has remained one of the most highly placed cards despite the fact that it cannot take creatures.

Also this card is idea for Ancestral wars since the very common play of:
Turn 1 Mox, Island, Scroll->Ancetral
Turn 2 Island, Ancestral (counter backup)

Also if your opponent scrolls for Ancestral then you can have additional counter backup after just a turn.

This still counters Yawg, Ancestral and Tinker and could be interesting in that it gives you a counterspell on turn 1 against Stax.

The fact that turn 1 Scroll->Force has supposedly been a good plan for Stax and Long in the past suggests to me that this card could have some uses.

Even against creature heavy decks there are almost always plenty of non creature spells to counter so it is not like this will clog up your hand any more than Duress fizzles when you opponent has no creature.

In most of the cases that you describe Mana Leak is probably better. At first this card intrigued me but then I remembered that Mana Leak existed.

[hauntedechos]

Duress offsets it's limitations because it is a proactive card, costs B while reactive counters are much more scutinized for there limitations in what they can counter and for how much.  True it still has some merits in that the spells it can counter are still significant.  I'll wager that U/W/X Fish will start to try and fit it in somewhere, I know I'm going to pick up my Fish deck and see how it fits in Daze's slots (ugh I've had such a love hate relationship with that damn counter)

Let's see if I can head the argument off at the pass.  Daze is loved on turn 1 because of the "free" aspect of it.  Mana Leak never made it into Fish because you had to pay for it, and it wasn't a hard counter after a deck aquired anough mana to play around it (much like daze after turn 1).  This card still hosts the same issue of having to be paid for, possibly requiering you to hold mana open, Fish hates this.  On the flipside of the coin, aside from creatures, it's a hard counter.  The argument will begin I'm sure.

But before/if  it does, remember that today we have Goyfs, Dryads, and a whole host of creatures that cause Fish a pain in the arse.  True there are FoW and other cards to neuter the beaters, but it would suck to have this counter in your hand when you wised it was a sword or FoW etc.

We can look at decks beyond Fish, but I really couldn't see them running this card.  I'm sure I'm wrong though.

Mike

[meadbert]

So which is better, the proactive Hymn to Tourach or its reactive counter part, Mana Drain?

I basically agree with most of the Mana Leak posts.  The two cards are similar.  Still, the problem that Mana Leak tends to run into is that if you are playing Mana Leak you are probably playing a Control deck which means your opponent eventually get the extra mana to negate it.  In order to properly use Mana Leak you want a deck that also uses some mana denial so Leaks in the late game are more valuable.  Oath was a perfect example of this.  For Oath Leak may actually remain better, but if someone wanted to make a blue heavy, draw heavy, I counter or bounce everything deck then this would fit better than Mana Leak.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

I've been pretty aware of what the vast majority of oath decks have been running for a while now. Mana leak is purposed in a list very rarely, even less so now that wasteland and factory has fallen out of favor to combat blood moon effects, and in many cases the gush engine. Every land in oath is typically capable of making  . With this in mind, why not just tap the same two lands play mana drain and have the opportunity to do more broken things next turn. I suppose if you where looking for a spell to cut to accommodate negate, duress would be your prime candidate. This would give you a reason to eliminate black in the build and archive a more resilient mana base but I've always found the demonic and vamp tutors to be pretty necessary. I also agree that there is little reason to play negate when a cheaper proactive spell is available in duress. Still playing this as a four of makes land mox go a much stronger play. I'd consider this card for more of a landstill or  fish type list

[hauntedechos]

So which is better, the proactive Hymn to Tourach or its reactive counter part, Mana Drain?

my comparison of Duress to reactive counterspells was not that Duress is better because it's proactive.  It was that Duress' inability to snag creatures is forgiven because it can be fired off 1st turn, it's proactive which puts the opponent in an awkward position and in the end can take YOUR choice of a card from the hand.

I don't quite understand your quote there.  Hymn costs BB which in itself is restrictive into which decks it can be played.  It doesn't allow you to select which cards the opponent discards, which is another of Duress' stong points.  Mana Drain on the other hand does what every hard counter does, counters the spell, however in addition to being a hard counter, it also gives the huge tactical advantage of producing mana to power out threats.  Comparing this information to the argument at hand, I'm not sure as I said, where you are going with this?

Michael

[Inflex]

So which is better, the proactive Hymn to Tourach or its reactive counter part, Mana Drain?

That is a horrible comparison to even suggest. Mana Drain adds mana (unlike Negate) and double black is incredibly more difficult to procure than a single black. Negate without a Mox also has twice the comparative mana cost of Duress.

[LotusHead]

Maybe the 1U CounterDuress spell would be best fit in a landstill/wasteland/factory kinda deck that won't always have UU up.

It would be good enough in Oath decks (at least Mana Leak good or Remand good) because the card it doesn't affect (creatures) is something that Oath can usually live with (well, not Plats or Meddling Mage, but usually live with).

That being said, I'm just glad its common.

[meadbert]

Actually I saw a new Mishra's Factory in the Morningtide Spoiler so Landstill could get a lot of help between this card and the new Factory.
Still, one of Landstill's biggest problems is early creatures.  That is why Fire/Ice is so important.  Goyf is a big problem in that bouncing it is not a great play and Fire/Ice may not hit it.  Still there are usually plenty of Threads post board to fix this problem.

[vroman]

you ppl are missing a fundamental point:
in order to be vintage worthy, counterspells must cost net zero mana.
the only decent counterspell that costs mana, generates mana.
spell snare and REB are very narrowly acceptable as sideboard material at 1c.
all counterspells that cost net 2 are suboptimal.
let me repeat that:
if you are playing negate, mana leak, rune snag, remand, counterspell, or delay, you are doing something wrong.

[Phele]

let me repeat that:
if you are playing negate, mana leak, rune snag, remand, counterspell, or delay, you are doing something wrong.

Sorry, but in my eyes this is simply not true. Many very successful vintage decks have played with Mana Leak and continue to do so. It might not be that game breaking like Mana Drain can be or as fundamental as FoW is. But nevertheless, it is still maindeck material.

[vroman]

just bc a deck succeeds does not mean it is perfectly built. mana-costing counterspells are suboptimal additions to otherwise solid archetypes. if you are playing 4xforce, 4xdrain, and still want more countermagic, mana leak/remand is not it. you should instead be playing daze, misdirection, blue pact, etc.

[Methuselahn]

you ppl are missing a fundamental point:
in order to be vintage worthy, counterspells must cost net zero mana.
the only decent counterspell that costs mana, generates mana.
spell snare and REB are very narrowly acceptable as sideboard material at 1c.
all counterspells that cost net 2 are suboptimal.
let me repeat that:
if you are playing negate, mana leak, rune snag, remand, counterspell, or delay, you are doing something wrong.

Why?

Are you basing this on intuition or have you tested all 'mana costing' counters in every archetype?  This doesn't seem like something you can just proclaim without examples or explanation.

We don't play magic in a vacuum and to say that this is fundamental just seems way off.

[meadbert]

So the ideal deck for Negate would have an instant speed draw engine including instant draw and tutor spells that cost u and u1.
I am guess that Negate might make the most sense with the Intuition+AK draw engine.  Thirst could work as well.

Begin with
Counters:
4 Force of Will
4 Negate
4 Mana Drain

Draw/Tutor:
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mystical Tutor
4 Brainstorm
2 Intuition
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Thirst for Knowledge (maybe)

From there I am not sure where to take such a deck.  One option is to move in the Control Slaver direction.  Another option is to move towards Drain Tendrils.  A third option would be to try to ressurect Xerox.  Finally, Oath could certainly work with an Intuition/AK engine since the Europeans have beeing doing it for sometime.  You can even run Intuition as a 4 of since it can tutor for either Oath or Orchard.

[Phele]

just bc a deck succeeds does not mean it is perfectly built. mana-costing counterspells are suboptimal additions to otherwise solid archetypes. if you are playing 4xforce, 4xdrain, and still want more countermagic, mana leak/remand is not it. you should instead be playing daze, misdirection, blue pact, etc.

There are enough decks that don't even play Mana Drain but play Mana Leak as the partner of FoW instead. And they do it for a good reason: In most cases they don't play that high Island count, usually have some sort of mana denial and still want some extra more less solid counter - not the even more conditional ones like Daze, Misdirection, Pact ...

To just state that the addition of Mana Leak is allways suboptimal, no matter which archetype we are talking about is not convincing. Instead I prefer to look at results.

http://www.morphling.de/search.php?type=3&app=10&sorting=DESC&search=Mana+Leak&sent=1

So you say that all these guys had no idea of proper deckbuilding and you know it better ... ? ... come one. You know yourself, that this statement ist to harsh?

[Jo84]

@meadbert:
why should this list support Negate over Counterspell?

The only "advantage" Mana Leak and Negate have is that you do not need UU on turn 1, but 1U.
I think Spell Snare would get this job done too, Daze, too. (what does it better depends on your meta and stuff)

[meadbert]

Having a counterspell available on turn 1 is very advantagous in this metagame.  I believe I listed the reasons in a post above but here they are:
1:  Counter Stax's first threat.
2:  Counter Combo's turn 1 bomb.
3:  Scroll for Ancestral on turn 1 and then play Ancestral with Negate (And possiblly Force) backup on turn 2.
4:  When on the draw, your opponent Scrolls for Ancestral on turn 1.  Now you can Negate Ancestral on turn 2.

All of these assume that you start with a mox, but with decks that run 5 Mox and Mana Crypt it turns out you are more likely to start with a Mox/Crypt than you are to not start with a Mox/Crypt.

The difference in casting cost between UU and U1 is really quite huge.  If Merchant Scroll cost UU rather than U1 than I am not sure it would have been used in Meandeck Gifts.  It certainly would have made that deck much worse.

Mana Leak was always a pretty good card but it just had trouble fitting in the right deck.  The hypothetical "right" deck needed to play some mana denial, play Mana Leak and thus other counters such as Force and also have a quick clock.  It is tough to do all three of those at once.  Oath was sort of Mana Leak's sweet spot.

With Negate you no longer need the mana denial and quick clock so it could be played in far more decks.  I am not saying this card is great at all. I do think it is better than Mana Leak and Mana Leak has seen vintage play, thus I think this will see Vintage play.

[EVG]

Honestly to consider how good a card will be in the format we need to look at the current format. I can understand in a Control-heavy meta then this card could be considered a better option then Mana Leak is, but when one steps back and sees how much aggro in Vintage there is right now, well this card begins to lose some of its appeal. I suppose it could help with counter wars, but Aggro Shop wont mind if you use this card to counter one of their artifacts, because the card still cannot counter a welder that has just rendered all of your counters useless.

I can see how this card could be good, but as Vroman said it costs too much mana, It is hard to reason playing a one mana counter spell such as REB out of the board, but making space for a 1U counterspell that cannot counter creatures, well I cannot reason that at all.

This card is useless unless you always have the mox and the land, and you are on the play or else how can you stop any deck from having a broken turn one play?

[SonataOfTheCathedral]

There were times Mana Leak was optimal in Mono Blue, and I still find it to be a worthy mention in Bomberman depending on the metagame since that deck was highly dependant on setting up a decent turn one defense, since the rest of the deck was too slow to do much else turn one.

[Everrid1234]

Mana Leak is definitely better imo. There will be situations where you want to counter Goyf, Confidant, Ophidian, Goblin Welder or Meddling Mage.
Claiming that countering these is unimportant is ignorant imo.
Mana Leak is most of the times a hard counter.

You can't just say that all counters with cc over 1 are unplayable. If you play a set of 5 Moxen, maybe a Mana Crypt, too, Leak is supportable.
But additional Duresses would be worth it since you can play these when you just have a Fetchie on your hand. It depends on how many counters you want.