Meadbert Manaless Ichorid Primer

[nineisnoone]

I see aggro with Swords more often than I see Echoing Truth. Echoing is usually more frequently seen in combo/control builds in my experience. Plus, there are times where you get put on the defensive and have to block, or in the alternative they have enough blockers to hold you down so that they can recover and deal with you.  And I always liked Chosen for both match-ups.

And most of the cases you bring up are more G2 situations where frequently dread return targets are removed. The cases you bring up are cases where I tend to find it's difficult to be dread returning. I guess to me Dread Return is by nature a "win-more" and Sharuum just feels like a better win-more card imo. At the point where I can Dread Return, I'd take infinite tokens over a new Bazaar or Unmask.

As far as FoW vs Unmask goes, I think the HUGE advantage FoW has is obviously it's superior nature on the draw. Ideally, I'd like to run Unmask G1, FoW G2 and G3.

Saw a little of the Timesticher combo.  Didn't especially like it.

[Joe Indelicato]

@meadbert- what's your current list like? Since we are reaching our "tipping point," do you plan on making any changes or taking a break from Ichorid?

4 City Of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine
4 Bazaar Of Baghdad
4 Serum Powder
4 Chalice Of The Void
4 Leyline Of The Void
4 Bridge From Below
3 Sadistic Hypnotist
4 Ichorid
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Fatestitcher
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
sideboard
1 Gemstone Mine
4 Unmask
2 Darkblast
4 Chain Of Vapor
4 Emerald Charm

That is the list I am currently running and would play today.
Leyline is still crucial for the mirror and pretty much every deck either uses their yard or creatures.
A 12th land is suboptimal as too many hands end up with 3 lands.  Also with 3 Fatestitchers you almost always dredge into one.
When I tested with 2x Dread Return and 2xHypnotist I frequently found I was missing 1 or the other.

I would like to make a few comments regarding the tournament report.  First of all, I almost always board out my Dread Return targets and in fact I frequently board down to 1 Dread Return.  The 1 Dread Return is important for dodging Extirpate on Bridge from Below.  I board out targets because Grave-Troll is already pretty good and games post board are more about playing through hate than going broken first.

Although Hypnotist was criticized, its only purpose is to win game 1.  Post board I board it out.  I notice that all game 1s were won except for the game where Dredge mulled to oblivion.  Therefore, I claim that Hypnotist did its job.  When evaluating Dredge Return targets it is important to keep track of games where you Dread Returned (or at least could have) but lost anyway.  These games are fairly rare.  Although I am currently pushing Hypnotist, and I am pretty confident that it is the best target, I cannot say that the right solution is to run 3xHypnotist.  Perhaps 2xHypnotist and Ancestor's Chosen would be the better solution.
Also, I could still see putting Darkblast back in the main deck now there are 7 on color sources. My perception is that Welder is not common enough to justify that, but if you find yourself in a Stax/Slaver heavy meta then maindeck Darkblast could make sense.

How exactly would you board against certain archetypes like:
Tez
Storm
Painter
Stax

[meadbert]

Generally I bring in the whole sideboard and bring out:
-3 Hypnotist
-2 Dread Return
-4 Leyline
-1 Fatestitcher
-2 Thug
-2 Imp
-1 Ichorid

If your opponent runs Wastes or if you suspect a large number of Needles then drop the Fatestitchers to 0 to keep in more Dredgers/Ichorid.

If you are fairly certain that you will not see Leyline or Planar Void then Emerald Charms can come out to put back 3 Dredgers and an Ichorid.

[TheOrangePet]

IMO, the presence of Fatestitcher for untapping and the general absence of Leyline means Emerald Charm and Chain of Vapor are dwarfed by the efficiency of artifact hate such as Oxidize+Crumble (not sorcery speed Chewers) and creature hate such as Darkblast+Contagion.

On another wing...

Initial reactions on Lord of Extinction?

DR'ing a 40/40 badass seems kinda threatening...especially with no strings attached like we find with the Grave Troll or multi-Sharuum options.

[nineisnoone]

IMO, the presence of Fatestitcher for untapping and the general absence of Leyline means Emerald Charm and Chain of Vapor are dwarfed by the efficiency of artifact hate such as Oxidize+Crumble (not sorcery speed Chewers) and creature hate such as Darkblast+Contagion.

On another wing...

Initial reactions on Lord of Extinction?

DR'ing a 40/40 badass seems kinda threatening...especially with no strings attached like we find with the Grave Troll or multi-Sharuum options.

I would still play Chain of Vapor.  Being able to bounce everything is still great.

As far as Lord of Extinction goes, I wish he cost 1 more mana so you could use Dragon Breath with him.  If he had trample or something like that, I would still consider him.  But maybe.

[PltnmNgl]

IMO, the presence of Fatestitcher for untapping and the general absence of Leyline means Emerald Charm and Chain of Vapor are dwarfed by the efficiency of artifact hate such as Oxidize+Crumble (not sorcery speed Chewers) and creature hate such as Darkblast+Contagion.

On another wing...

Initial reactions on Lord of Extinction?

DR'ing a 40/40 badass seems kinda threatening...especially with no strings attached like we find with the Grave Troll or multi-Sharuum options.

I would still play Chain of Vapor.  Being able to bounce everything is still great.

As far as Lord of Extinction goes, I wish he cost 1 more mana so you could use Dragon Breath with him.  If he had trample or something like that, I would still consider him.  But maybe.

Exactly. He's one keyword short of good, sadly.

[TheOrangePet]

IMO, the presence of Fatestitcher for untapping and the general absence of Leyline means Emerald Charm and Chain of Vapor are dwarfed by the efficiency of artifact hate such as Oxidize+Crumble (not sorcery speed Chewers) and creature hate such as Darkblast+Contagion.

On another wing...

Initial reactions on Lord of Extinction?

DR'ing a 40/40 badass seems kinda threatening...especially with no strings attached like we find with the Grave Troll or multi-Sharuum options.

I would still play Chain of Vapor.  Being able to bounce everything is still great.

As far as Lord of Extinction goes, I wish he cost 1 more mana so you could use Dragon Breath with him.  If he had trample or something like that, I would still consider him.  But maybe.

Exactly. He's one keyword short of good, sadly.

Boo, I felt this initially as well.

And the Chain of Vapor argument is valid for sure. Emerald Charm although I feel is too narrow.

[Rubik_3x3x3]

And the Chain of Vapor argument is valid for sure. Emerald Charm although I feel is too narrow.

Emerald Charm, while narrow, is a terrific answer to a key hate card. Certainly, Leyline has been run less lately and perhaps Charm should not be automatically boarded in as a 4-of every G2. That said, it has the ability to untap a Bazaar which could be what puts you ahead of the hate and able to win. Definitely a valid argument that Charm is not as useful as it once was, but it does have more than just the one effect.

[Chuu]

A bit new to vintage, sorry of this question is dumb.

The list that t8'd at Bazzar of Moxen 3 is missing 4 cards - which according to their forums is "City il me Semble" which roughly translates to "forgotten city" or "the city that I forgot".  I can't think of what card this could be in English, anyone know?

(or I guess it could also mean "city of " <card whose name I forget> since it's been years since I took french.  Still drawing a blank)

[Wagner]

It actually translates to "City, I guess" or "City, probably".

It most likely refers to City of Brass, they only called it City.

[Beralt]

Forsaken City? or possibly Petrified Field but Forsaken City I have seen in occasional builds.

[Chuu]

Already 4x Petrified Field in the s/b.

Is it usual for "manaless" ichorid to run mana these days?  He has 4 mine in the s/b but I guess you might need 8 mana producers to reliably hit your flashback mana post-s/b.

[LordHomerCat]

Most of the Manaless Ichorid I see nowadays will run a handful of lands main to free up some sideboard space.  Often they will still be manaless (no blue spells) but have 4-6 lands in the maindeck anyway so that they have more room in the sideboard for defensive cards.

[nineisnoone]

And the Chain of Vapor argument is valid for sure. Emerald Charm although I feel is too narrow.

Emerald Charm, while narrow, is a terrific answer to a key hate card. Certainly, Leyline has been run less lately and perhaps Charm should not be automatically boarded in as a 4-of every G2. That said, it has the ability to untap a Bazaar which could be what puts you ahead of the hate and able to win. Definitely a valid argument that Charm is not as useful as it once was, but it does have more than just the one effect

You know, with all these new mana-d "manaless" ichorid decks running fate stichers, this probably should just be a main deck card.  Since it basically functions the same way initially.

[Elfrago]

And the Chain of Vapor argument is valid for sure. Emerald Charm although I feel is too narrow.

Emerald Charm, while narrow, is a terrific answer to a key hate card. Certainly, Leyline has been run less lately and perhaps Charm should not be automatically boarded in as a 4-of every G2. That said, it has the ability to untap a Bazaar which could be what puts you ahead of the hate and able to win. Definitely a valid argument that Charm is not as useful as it once was, but it does have more than just the one effect

You know, with all these new mana-d "manaless" ichorid decks running fate stichers, this probably should just be a main deck card.  Since it basically functions the same way initially.

Aside from the fact that you need Emerald Charm in your opening hand while 'Stitcher can confortably sit in the grave.
Might as well play Breakthrough then.

[nineisnoone]

Breakthrough won't hit Leyline though. 

And like I said only initially.   Basically you have 8 Fatestichers to mulligan into and 4 you can dredge into.

But I guess you could run Breakthrough though.  Breakthrough/Sticher/Narco would allow you to run FoW and all.  Not a bad idea....

[bobjackson11]

Is leyline of the void really needed in this metagame anymore?  I tend to feel that it was good when you expected ichorid mirrors and the flash deck.  But now those matches do not occur much or even matter.  I probally should post my list b4 I start talking though:

// Lands
    4  Dryad Arbor
    4  Bazaar of Baghdad

// Creatures
    4  Street Wraith
    2  Flame-Kin Zealot
    1  Angel of Despair
    1  Cephalid Sage
    4  Narcomoeba
    4  Stinkweed Imp
    4  Golgari Grave-Troll
    4  Golgari Thug
    4  Ichorid

// Spells
    4  Dread Return
    4  Cabal Therapy
    4  Bridge from Below
    4  Chalice of the Void
    4  Serum Powder
    4  Unmask

// Sideboard
SB: 3  Sickening Shoal
SB: 2  Bayou
SB: 2  Windswept Heath
SB: 4  Reverent Silence
SB: 4  Oxidize

Pretty Good List I have to say so myself.  I cut the 4 leylines for 4 unmask, who has tried unmasks in their decks?  and what are your thoughts on it?   I've even tried to messing with 4 sickening shoals main, or some form of stripmine/petrified field over the leylines.  What do you guys think?

[Adan]

A bit new to vintage, sorry of this question is dumb.

The list that t8'd at Bazzar of Moxen 3 is missing 4 cards - which according to their forums is "City il me Semble" which roughly translates to "forgotten city" or "the city that I forgot".  I can't think of what card this could be in English, anyone know?

(or I guess it could also mean "city of " <card whose name I forget> since it's been years since I took french.  Still drawing a blank)

There are indeed 4 City of Brass missing in that list (a german fellow had to face him in the swiss rounds, thus the information is reliable).

Also makes more sense as the sideboardcards would be prety dead otherwise (well, or you would be very dependant on the Petrified Fields and dredging one of the 3 5color lands from the SB).

I run a similar list, except that I don't run the 3 Fields and the Strip Mine but more Dredgers (4 Thugs and 2 Blasts) and a thicker Dread-Return-package (3 Return, 2 FKZ and 1 Angel).

I think that list is very solid as it is as explosive as manaless Ichorid preboard and can be converted into mana Ichorid postboard (you will need the mana for the hate-hate in any case).

I find manaless Ichorid better than mana dredge since Mana Dredge lacks maindeck disruption (no Leylines and no Unmasks) to rape combo well enough (Unmasks also make Therapies more efficient and Leylines disable Cabal Rituals and Yawgmoth's Will).

How do you guys think about that? I am quite new to Ichorid and would like to share some thoughts about it. I'd be glad about your responses! 

[scipio]

I searched for an answer to this question with no luck, so maybe it's already obvious, but...

Legacy builds have made good use of Greater Gargadon and Firestorm.  Gargadon helps the deck to mitigate creature removal and land destruction and facilitates creature sacrifice to make bridge tokens.  It's generally used to mitigate spot removal, board sweepers, and artifact removal, while creating a useful clock that's not dependent on the main ichorid engine.  I'm thinking of it as a defense against hate in that it creates an alternate win condition.

Firestorm comes in out of the board against creature-based strategies and is a useful discard outlet if bazaar somehow gets shut down.  As more aggro/creature decks enter the field (RG, GW, Fish), is this a useful addition?  Could it reasonably replace Darkblast/Contagion as an answer to Jailer/creature swarms?

Thanks.

[meadbert]

Legacy builds have made good use of Greater Gargadon and Firestorm.  Gargadon helps the deck to mitigate creature removal and land destruction and facilitates creature sacrifice to make bridge tokens.  It's generally used to mitigate spot removal, board sweepers, and artifact removal, while creating a useful clock that's not dependent on the main ichorid engine.  I'm thinking of it as a defense against hate in that it creates an alternate win condition.

I briefly tested Greater Gargadon way back when folks first started running Leyline of the Void.  I discovered that it is faster to simply remove Leyline and then win than it is to wait for Gargadon to come on line.  Perhaps legacy plays at a bit more slowly making Gargadon better there.  Also there is a new issue which is that folks run hate as 1 and 2 ofs which means your anti hate can only answer certain hate.  What is nice about Gargadon is that he sort of answers anything.  I could see him being better now than when I tested, but when I tested he was not even close to as good as Chain of Vapor or Emerald Charm.

Firestorm comes in out of the board against creature-based strategies and is a useful discard outlet if bazaar somehow gets shut down.  As more aggro/creature decks enter the field (RG, GW, Fish), is this a useful addition?  Could it reasonably replace Darkblast/Contagion as an answer to Jailer/creature swarms?

Firestorm looks good to me.  I have never been much of a fan of Contagion, because I like that Darkblast Dredges making it easy to find.  Firestorm has the same problem of not dredging, but as far as removal goes it looks great that you can remove multiple Jailers/Dark Confidants and dump a bunch of dredgers all at once.  That is a great find!  Thank you for bringing it to our attention.  Clearly I should be paying closer attention to legacy.

[scipio]

I could see him being better now than when I tested, but when I tested he was not even close to as good as Chain of Vapor or Emerald Charm.

I suspect this is still true.  With the Vintage hate largely consisting of Tormod's, Leyline, Jailer, Relic, and pithing needle, you really prefer to bounce the piece that's locking you out, or use a wispmare/ingot chewer whose evoke will net some bridge tokens.  The only nice thing about gargadon is that the ability is uncounterable and instant speed.  In legacy, it's used to set up shenanigans with a played thug and narco's or putrid imps in the yard or saccing a played bridge - not common occurrences in Vintage

That is a great find!  Thank you for bringing it to our attention.  Clearly I should be paying closer attention to legacy.

I can't take credit for the idea, but certainly saw some potential with the current metagame, especially out of the board.  I'm planning to try it over darkblasts for now.  Thanks for the reply.

scipio

[Jlive00]

I haven't tested Gargadon, but I suspect that it would be hard to implement in practice.  Most decks are perfectly capable of killing you in a couple of turns if left unmolested with hate pieces locking you down.  It is hard to imagine gargadon being relevant in time.  Not to mention you have quite a few cards that will never be perms (serum powder, unmask) and though you may have the same number of lands as the legacy version, bazaar doesn't cast narcomoeba or golgari thug the way that the legacy lands do. 

Firestorm doesn't really compete with darkblast (or at least it probably shouldn't).  It competes with the contagion slot in the sideboard. 
That spot can be taken by a couple of cards, all intended to deal with the following problems: Yixlid Jailer, Gaddock Teeg, Magus of the Moon, Platinum Angel, other various and sundry creatures that affect the game without combat (peacekeeper, glowrider, samurai of the pale curtain, etc.)

Contagion, Sickening shoal, slaughter pact, firestorm are the candidates (I suppose you can look at darkblast too then)

Contagion:
Can be cast for free
Is a black card (can be pitched to Unmask and other contagions)
Can deal with 2 yixlid jailers

Cannot deal with Platinum Angel
Cannot deal with Gaddock Teeg
Requires a 2nd black card to be useful

Sickening Shoal:
Can be cast for free
Is a black card (can be pitched to Unmask and other sickening shoals)
Can deal with Platinum Angel
Gets around indestructibilty (rarely, if ever useful)

Cannot deal with Gaddock Teeg
Requires specific black cards to deal with certain threats (cabal therapy + Sickening shoal =/= dead Teeg)
Can only deal with 1 yixlid jailer

Slaughter Pact:
Can be cast for free
Is a black card (ibid)
Can deal with platinum angel

Cannot kill yixlid jailer (deal breaker)
"Lose the game"

Darkblast
Reusable
"Dredge"

Can't deal with multiple yixlid jailers
Requires an entire turn and 2 lands to set up killing x/2s
Incapable of killing x/3s by itself


Firestorm:

Can deal with multiple yixlid jailers (or other creatures)
Can deal with creatures of varying size and shape
Discard outlet
Can dome

Cannot be cast for free (matters in situations where you need to deal with more than one hate card)
Is not a black card
Must have X targets
Must have X cards in hand
Can't target Sphinx of the Steel Wind


I played firestorm the last time I played dredge and it was ok although I only cast it once.  The other 73 cards didn't cooperate as well (1 cabal therapy cast in 7 games) but firestorm was ok.   I think I would be happy with whatever I sleeved up on the day.  The day you have Firestorm you'll need it for unmask and the day you have contagion someone will put Platinum Angel into play against you.  Just how life works sometimes (or maybe that's just me).

-J-

[Adan]

I have been fine with Darkblasts so far (3 in the whole 75), but I am looking foward to test Contagions (I haven't played them so far, therefore I don't know how they behave etc.).

But in some points I just don't see the problems, Gaddock Teeg is pretty irrelevant, he just prevents us from casting Dread Return and Unmasks. Unmasks are faster than Teeg and Dread Return is not needed against the deck.
Platz is a pain in the ass, but I have a Angel of Despair maindeck for it and in the Sb, I have 4 Chain and 4 Ancient Grudge. Notice that you can also dispose creatures with Chain-Unmask/Therapy without losing your Bridges [/ninja-tech].

Chain is very versatile as you can see. <3 that card. So don't worry too much about your SB removal, Darkblasts and Contagions are O.K, just watch that you have at least 3 in your 75 in any constellation). Platz for example can still be handled by Ancient Grudges and Chains.

[Jlive00]

But in some points I just don't see the problems, Gaddock Teeg is pretty irrelevant, he just prevents us from casting Dread Return and Unmasks. Unmasks are faster than Teeg and Dread Return is not needed against the deck.
Platz is a pain in the ass, but I have a Angel of Despair maindeck for it and in the Sb, I have 4 Chain and 4 Ancient Grudge. Notice that you can also dispose creatures with Chain-Unmask/Therapy without losing your Bridges [/ninja-tech].

Chain is very versatile as you can see. <3 that card. So don't worry too much about your SB removal, Darkblasts and Contagions are O.K, just watch that you have at least 3 in your 75 in any constellation). Platz for example can still be handled by Ancient Grudges and Chains.

I think everyone understands the versatility of chain of vapor.  All of the scenarios are fine as long as your opponent only has 1 hate card but you win those games anyways.  The problem is when someone puts a jailer into play and then tinkers for Platinum Angel.  Gaddock Teeg + Tormod's Crypt + Pithing needle.  You have to think a little more closely about your countermeasures when you expect to need chain of vapor to deal with leyline.  I wrote out the list so people can make an informed decision, not so I can get called paranoid or lectured about chain of vapor, a card that everyone has  a million of.

You also might reconsider 4 ancient grudge.  Its very hard to cast that card under a thorn of amethyst.  You might want at least some ingot chewers. 
-J-

[Ozymandias]

So, I'm going to be taking Fatestitcher Dredge into a completely unknown metagame, because of its resilience vs omnipresent Drain decks and its complete crushing of randomness, and I had a few questions WRT to the construction of the deck.

1)  How many Fatestitchers do I need to run? I don't ever want to see one milled unless I have a City/Mine in my opener, but if I have a City/Mine I always want to see one. With that in mind, do I want 3 or 4? The corollary is how many rainbow lands do I need? I always want to see one in my starting hand and never want to see 2.

2) Do I need to maindeck Leyline? It obviously is boss in the mirror, and it gives you something good to see in your opening hand, but would I be better of with Unmask?

3) What counter-hate is the best for the board? 4 Chain of Vapor is pretty much an all-purpose given, but beyond that I need to deal with Jailer, artifact hate cards, and Leyline as the 3 primary enemies. Unmask is also a consideration vs. storm combo and such. I probably also want to ramp up to 8 lands that cast spells in g2. That means I want to fit Unmask, Darkblast, Chain of Vapor, Ingot Chewer/Oxidize, Emerald Charm/wispmare, and 1 Gemstone Mine into 15 cards. I guess I could cut one or even 2 Thugs for a Darkblast, but that still leaves me a bit short of spaces. Thoughts?

[jester3397]

I played a list a couple weeks back that was similar to what meadbert had listed.

Check out the list here: http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1111

I decided not to play Leyline of the Void and instead maindecked 3 Unmasks and went with 8 colored mana maindeck. I also went with the 2-1 config for Hypnotist and FKZ.

I found that I usually boarded out 3 Unmask, 1 Hypnotist, 1 FKZ, 2 Dread Return, 0-4 Chalice. The sideboard was very flexible and had a lot of answers to different hate. The only change I would make is taking out the 2 wispmare for 1 more emerald charm and 1 more ancient grudge.

Hypnotist was spectacular the whole day and completely caught everyone by surprise, there were 3 other Ichorid decks but non played with Hypnotists. They mostly used Angel, FKZ and Cephalid. There were a only a handful of Tezz decks, surprisingly as it was more common the previous tournament. There were a lot of GW aggro and fish decks in all shapes and forms. The most common deck was combo either TPS or AdN. Also I was very lucky not to face a mirror matchup as I had no Leylines main or boarded.

Although a different metagame with lots of random aggro and homebrew combo, the 52 player attendance was still very competitive. The tournament was mainly for a cause, a fellow vintage player suffering stage 5 diabetes and other complications, was the reason for the event and all proceeds went to him.

I battled against GW Parfait(2-0), Mono-Black Sui(2-0), BUG Fish(2-0), TPS(2-0), TPS(2-1) and ID with 9Sphere in round 6.

And played against another TPS in the Top8 losing game1 and somehow winning the next two. Won 2 Close games in the semis against the 9sphere aggro I drew with in the last round. And finally winning 2-1 against a 5c Oath deck sporting 11 cards anti-Ichorid hate for the win.

note:
I was very lucky the whole day as I rarely mulliganed and probably mulled only once below 5. Plus I kept on getting double bazaars or bazaar/colored mana in may games 2 and 3 w/o mulling that is why I was able to find answers quickly.

[voltron00x]

That is one sexy maindeck! 

Who says Ichorid never wins tournaments...

[scipio]

I seemed to recall an oath transformational sideboard at some point in the distant past.  I was surprised that this never really took off.  Does anyone recall the player/list?  Anyone have any thoughts on this option?  It's appealing in that the opponent will bring in a ton of useless hate.  Unappealing in that, at best, it will be much less effective version of Oath, and at worst, a complete bust.

Apologies if this has been hashed out in the previous pages.

[LordHomerCat]

That was a Jerry Yang special.  The thing is, it was a relatively weak Dredge deck game 1 (because you can't run more then 15 creatures) and a pretty bad Oath deck game 2.  I don't actually have a list, sadly, but it was just like mana Dredge with 15 creatures and then a bunch of Oath stuff in the board.

[nataz]

Yea, pretty much what LHC said. It also ran the oath creatures in the MD to save space if I remember. Akroma and what not that could be dread returned.