[Deck] Drain Tendrils

[Ufactor]

There are a insufficient amount of Control Slaver players in my area, so I would like more opportunity to test that match.  For that reason, I've not seen a lot of main deck graveyard hate, especially not in conjunction with Goblin Welder.  Let me ponder your riddle before I suggest an answer....

[TripleAgent]

Also, Ufactor suggested swapping Needle for other anti-Ichorid cards... not for other matchups like Fish.

I wasn't clear. I meant from 3 board to 1 or 2 for Massacre and maybe some other more versatile card.

[meadbert]

Especially if they happen to have welder+crypt, which also shuts down your Tinker>DSC plan. 

Welder + Crypt is scary in what it does to your draw engine.  What it does to your win is not that bad since Rebuild + Tendrils is still untouched.
Welder + Crypt would be a good reason to run Needle or Skeletal Scrying since Scrying defends your DSC from Welder.

[Grand Inquisitor]

Rebuild + Tendrils is still untouched

Guys, I get it, the deck is flexible.  I'm one of the people who've played it most besides Arsenal, but...

Saying the tendrils killed is untouched is completely ingenuine.  This is not ritual combo.  Without brainstorms to filter cards, and if crypt shuts down AK's draw power, then the deck has a very difficult time hitting a mass of cards where it can do the bounce>tendrils win.  More bounce/needle, or alternate draw like Thirst, Scrying, or DA all help for sure.  I was just pointing out that U's list is particularly vulnerable, although I myself have yet to find a combination of card choices which make me feel comfortable in this meta.

[M.Solymossy]

I don't understand why anyone would play this deck.  It's more Yawgmoth's Will dependent than Intuition Tendrils was.

[Ufactor]

Rebuild + Tendrils is still untouched

Guys, I get it, the deck is flexible.  I'm one of the people who've played it most besides Arsenal, but...

Saying the tendrils killed is untouched is completely ingenuine.  This is not ritual combo.  Without brainstorms to filter cards, and if crypt shuts down AK's draw power, then the deck has a very difficult time hitting a mass of cards where it can do the bounce>tendrils win.  More bounce/needle, or alternate draw like Thirst, Scrying, or DA all help for sure.  I was just pointing out that U's list is particularly vulnerable, although I myself have yet to find a combination of card choices which make me feel comfortable in this meta.

Bounce, Needle, DA, Scrying, LoA, etc. are good places to start, but they suggest that you want to want to fight Control Slaver on their level.  I would suggest that it's more strategic to play the "beat down" role.  It might be more explosive, and unexpected, to side in pure bombs (Memory Jar, Mind's Desire and Yawgmoth's Bargain all come to mind.  Memory Jar might be the best of the three in the event that someone is apt to let Tinker resolve).  What about that?

[piZZero]

This is the list i'm currently testing at the moment.


3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Library of Alexandria

1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
5 Moxes
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring

4 Acummulated Knowledge
3 Thirst for Knowledge
2 Intuition

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
2 Duress
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Rebuild

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Dark Ritual
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Recoup

With the format having slowed down a little bit, this mixed list between Gifts and Drain Tendrils has proven to work great to me against most of the new "tier 1" decks (such as Control Slaver, MUD, etc...).

The deck has an insane draw engine. 4 AK's + 3 TFK + FoF + Ancestral. It has great tutoring power: DT+ VT + MT + 2 Intuition + Gfits. The protecting/disruption package seems very strong to me: 4 FoWs + 4 Drains + 2 Duress. And then, some Library manipulators and hand fixers such as Ponder + Brainstorm.

I've added Dark Ritual to be able to just win with the Gifts: Lotus + Ritual/Tolaria + Recoup + Yawgmoth's Will = GG. Intuitions work great in this deck as well. 1st Intuition usually goes to AK's and the 2nd one is just the i-win button.

For the kill, i've taken out DSC + Tinker due to the new raise of Goblin Welder and the not-so-synergy with Chain of Vapor and Rebuild. Speaking of wich, they are the best storm generators of the deck thanks to the 10 artifacts i run. I've added Empty the Warrens to have an alternative win condition to Tendrils.

What do you guys think of the list?

Cheers!

piZZero - Jordi Amat

[JUZAM_DJINN]

@piZZero:

My thoughts:

Volcanics vs Islands.

I think one of the main strengths of DT is being UB. Adding red and therefore losing basics makes your Fish  and Staxs matches worse.

EtW vs DSC kill

Goblin welder can be easily handled with Pithing Needle and Darkblast after sideboarding.

Recoup

It's a dead card too often and with brainstorm gone you can't get rid of it.

Single Dark Ritual

I like it even without Recoup. Nice intuition target before yagwinning. I may cut intuition #3 to fit it in my build

I pretty much agree with the rest.

I took a UB version of the deck to the last LCV tourney and made 4-2 , losing against Long and Fish.

cya

JUZAM

[piZZero]

I managed to Top4 at the I Open Vintage Team Pataners  (44 players sanctioned by DCI tournament) yesterday with the list i posted a couple of days ago, card by card. During the tournament the deck work great, it felt really powerfull and without many problems against Fish & Shops. I played against 2 Fish players, won 1 and tied 1 (lacked 1 spell to win the other match) and against Shops i lost to Workshop + Trini twice on a round and then won over the shops i played in Top8.

My sideboard for the tournament was:

4 Leyline of the Void
3 Energy Flux
2 Extirpate
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Tinker
1 Colossus

All in all, i'm super satisfied with the addition of red to the deck. Gifts won me many games, recoup won me even more games and i killed via Intuition couple of times as well.

[Mantis]

@piZZero:
So how was the manabase? You played a few times against Wasteland, was running Volcanic Islands an issue?

I personally think adding red is a good decision, because in my limited testing I had quite a few games where Will was in the graveyard and it gets real hard to win from that spot.

Also, how were the 2 Duress main? I'm not sure if I like them, perhaps I would prefer more bounce as that can help you combo off as well. They also seem very poor with LoA main, Duress and LoA just don't go together really well in the same deck.

@Cody: once again, you created a great deck, it's a joy to play and our games were nice. Looking forward to play you again on MWS!

[meadbert]

Recoup is more significant now than it was pre restriction.  Without Brainstorm Yawgmoth's Will is more likely to be Duressed to the graveyard and it is convenient to have a way to get it back.

[piZZero]

@piZZero:
So how was the manabase? You played a few times against Wasteland, was running Volcanic Islands an issue?

I personally think adding red is a good decision, because in my limited testing I had quite a few games where Will was in the graveyard and it gets real hard to win from that spot.

Also, how were the 2 Duress main? I'm not sure if I like them, perhaps I would prefer more bounce as that can help you combo off as well. They also seem very poor with LoA main, Duress and LoA just don't go together really well in the same deck.

@Cody: once again, you created a great deck, it's a joy to play and our games were nice. Looking forward to play you again on MWS!

The mana base worked super smooth. I had no problems against Wasteland during the whole tournament, and i played 4 rounds against decks running 4 wasteland + Stripmine. I always opened (when it possible) with Fetchlands to Islands. The deck doesn't need black or red on the early game. What you want is to cast AK's, Intuitions and TFK's. I never opened with Fetchland to Underground to cast Duress. That play nowadays i think it's not that effective. I always kept the Duress for the turn i was gonna combo off.  Same happens with Recoup, you don't need the red land untill you decide to combo off with Gifts or Empty. To summ up: The mana base worked great, as intended.

About the 2 Duress, i think i answered you that already on the paragraph above. They worked as intended too: They provided the information of a given moment of the game to know if i could win the game or not.

Recoup is more significant now than it was pre restriction.  Without Brainstorm Yawgmoth's Will is more likely to be Duressed to the graveyard and it is convenient to have a way to get it back.

You couldn't have said it more clear! My will got duressed twice on the tournament and those 2 specific games i won them thanks to will Recoup anyone?

Cheers!

piZZero - Jordi Amat

[Mantis]

I have tested the Ubr version and didn't really like it to be honest. First of all I must admit Recoup + Gifts is good and is a great addition to the deck, but the question is if you would be willing to trade a worse manabase for just Recoup. EtW didn't impress me much in the games I tested it, losing me one game where Tendrils would have won. Duress was very unimpressive, I would much rather have Merchant Scroll and TfK or another bounce spell in that slot.

I could see running Recoup + Gifts in place of 1 TfK and something else with Merchant Scroll in. Merchant Scroll is so much better than Duress as it can get disruption (FoW or Mana Drain) can act as a great drawspell (1UU Draw 3 in combination with Recall or AK), or can bounce any troublesome permanents. So basically it disrupts, probably a little bit worse than the effect of Duress but it doesn't require you to fetch out a Sea and can do so much more.

REBs and Pyroblasts are good, I'm unsure if they are much better than Duress/Thoughtseize if so, that might be a good reason to run red. I'd rather be fetching out Sea than Volcanic though, testing or debating here should reveal whats best.

So I would only consider adding Recoup and Gifts with one extra Volcanic and perhaps a copy of EtW in the sideboard.

[Andreas]

Have you thought about replacing the Duresses with Mana Leaks (Or maybe another U1 counter like Negate)? They would be able to affect the game early on without having to fetch an Underground Sea.

[RJ]

jordi--- your list was relly solid--- i played the same deck w/ 3 diff cards--- it was fun---good mods


cody

[piZZero]

jordi--- your list was relly solid--- i played the same deck w/ 3 diff cards--- it was fun---good mods


cody

What were the changes you made? Did you run Merchant Scroll?

There are some cards i'd like to fit in, but the decklist is too tight to take something out without hurting some of the disruption/drawing packages. Merchant, Misdirection and Hurkyl's are the cards. I tried Merchant +Misdirection instead of the 2 Duress, but i really like how Duress works in this deck.

[RaleighNCTourneys]

-1 LoA
-2 Duress

+1 Fetch
+1 Hurkyl's Recall
+1 Merchant Scroll

I was very happy with the list and lost to inexperience with it and lack of testing. I could have won game 1 of my Ichorid match against Bert but my inexperience with Gifts Ungiven scewed me over.

[RaleighNCTourneys]

From the Arsenal forums:

I like it. DSC just has not done much post 6/20. There are tons of Welders and Long and Dredge can race it.

That was exactly the reason I didn't want Colossus anymore. It really is weak with no way to deal with Welder maindeck and is terrible against Long, which I expected to be 2 strong contenders.

With the loss of Brainstorm, the deck just felt weird... as it should. I switched to an old school DT list with Dark Ritual, Frantic, Gush, 2x Tendrils, etc. This was working out decently, but I think this type of deck was hurt even more by the loss of Brainstorm b/c its only kill is Tendrils.

During this time, I had been thinking about Jordi's list he did well with and it seemed very strong, but I didn't have time to test it. I didn't like only 2 bounce spells and LoA is not a preference of mine anymore, so I cut the 2 Duress and LoA for another fetch, a Hurkyl's and a Merchant Scroll.

The reason the red list is so good is because the deck isn't as explosive or consistent without 4 Brainstorm. This takes an already slow combo/control deck and makes it slower and less consistent. Recoup takes care of a big problem that is created by losing Brainstorm: consistent wins. You may not be able to Brainstorm anymore and find the combo pieces and shuffle the rest away, but with 2x Intution and 1x Gifts Ungiven you can consistently win the game by dumping Recoup and Will into the yard. Also, Recoup is really solid in the deck because it runs Ponder, Scroll, DT, Walk, Will, Tendrils and ETW maindeck and Thoughtseize and Tinker on the sideboard. Gifts Ungiven is pretty solid on its own too because... well we all know it can find 4 good cards and doesn't always have to go for the kill.

Anyway, I decided to run the UBr DT the morning of the final Cary Cup because it just seemed better. The deck did everything I hoped it could have and in the 2 matches I lost all day, there was 1 game I could have won if I had made the correct decision. With some practice with the new deck and possibly minor tweaks, I'm confident it will be a very strong contender in the new metagame.

For reference, here is the list I ran

UBr DT
Piloted by Cody Vinci 7/12/08
Inspired by Jordi Amat's list
Which was inspired by Cody Vinci's list
Which was inspired by old Drain TPS lists
Which was inspired by the creation of the storm mechanic
Which was a awesome addition to MTG
Which is a game created by Richard Garfield, Ph.D.

// Lands
3 Flooded Strand
3 Island
3 Polluted Delta
1 Tolarian Academy
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island

// Spells
4 Accumulated Knowledge
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Black Lotus
1 Brainstorm
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will
2 Intuition
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
4 Mana Drain
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Rebuild
1 Sol Ring
1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Time Walk
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Mana Vault
1 Dark Ritual
1 Recoup
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Ponder

SB: 1 Darksteel Colossus
SB: 1 Tinker
SB: 4 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Darkblast
SB: 3 Yixlid Failer
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 4 Thoughtseize

[piZZero]

Hi again!

I won yesterday the 7th LCV (Catalan Vintage League) tournament with 62 players, playingthe same deck i achieved Top4 at the I Open Vintage Team Pataners.

I wrote (in spanish) a very complete primer of the deck, which i consider it's more appropiate to call it Gifts Tendrils than Drain tendrils. You can read the primer here:

[Primer]: TP Gifts Tendrils - By Jordi Amat

After testing some changes, like taking out 2 Duress for Misdirection and Merchant or Hurkyl's and Merchant, in the end, i decided to take Duress back in and play the exact same list with only few small changes in the sideboard:

Istead of 4 Leyline of the Void, i played 3 Yixlid Jailer and a Darkblast. The resulting sideboard looked like:

*1 Tinker
*1 DSC
*1 Rack & Ruin
*2 Pyroblast
*1 REB
*3 Energy Flux
*3 Yixlid Jailer
*1 Darkblast
*2 Extirpate

I've written a very complete report (in spanish, although there's a translate to english button (that works a bit bad tho )) of the tournament. There you'll see what i faced with complete explanation of the games. You can read it here:

[Report]: Winner of the LCV4#7 with TP Gifts Tendrils (Mataró, 19/07/08 - 62 players)

I hope you guys enjoy the report (although the language might be a handicap)!

Cheers!

piZZero - Jordi Amat

[RaleighNCTourneys]

Awesome job Jordi!! Congrats!

A more standard DT list also won a Lotus tourney this weekend in CA.

[Webster]

Awesome job Jordi!! Congrats!

A more standard DT list also won a 19-man Lotus tourney this weekend in CA.

Fixed.

[RaleighNCTourneys]

Thanks?

[Ufactor]

...erm, with no Darksteel Colossus to pitch, I'm finding that Thirst for Knowledge has no utility purposes.  This seem like it's now a tertiary and superfluous draw engine.  Is anyone else getting similar results?

[Metman]

I too have found Thirst sometimes a weak link in the DT shell but there isn't a lot to replace it with.  I run Colossus though and Vault, which I've noticed some people have cut.   It's a great way to spend Mana Drain mana, dump off color moxes that will be utilized by Yawg, dump an extra AK, and dump extra lands that bog down the hand in the later game.  If I were to cut the Thirsts I would replace them with a combonation of Scrying, Frantic Search, and tutors like Imp. Seal and Lim Dul's Vault. 

[Implacable]

I've been testing Drain Tendrils pretty extensively in the last couple weeks, and been pretty happy with it.  Here's the thing: even Control Slaver, with it's Welders and whatnot, has a really tough time competing with the card advantage engine that Drain Tendrils has, and Stax has serious problems beating four maindeck bounce spells.  Long is unfavorable pre-board, but the addition of Thoughtseize post and Darkblasts to answer Confidant board plans (which have become more popular) helps even it out.  Drain Tendrils, ultimately, can compete with many rogue decks, simply because its plan is ludicrously redundant; it just draws cards and draws cards and draw cards until the other guy falls over.  I even still run Colossus, simply because in a variable metagame like this one, Colossus always requires an answer, and even a single swing getting in makes it very easy to get a Tendrils kill.

[meadbert]

...erm, with no Darksteel Colossus to pitch, I'm finding that Thirst for Knowledge has no utility purposes.  This seem like it's now a tertiary and superfluous draw engine.  Is anyone else getting similar results?

No.

Thirst for Knowledge is very important.

First, you still have 10 artifacts to pitch.

Second, pitching AK + a land perfectly fine since your remaining AKs now draw 2, 3 and 4 cards.  Note that AK for 2 is broken enough that Wizards has never printed a card that does that.

DT draws so many cards that there are frequenly multiply lands in your hand in the late game.  Pitch two lands is perfectly fine in this case.

Thirst dodges graveyard hate which Intuition does not do.

Post board you may want to pitch uncastable Leylines or if you already have some hate out maybe you just want to accelerate into a win.  Thirst does either.

Finally Thirst is more important for generic filtering than ever now that Brainstorm is gone.  Having 4 bounce spells is great, but it is easier to draw into them with Thirst then use Tutors to find them.

At almost all times Cody has been running more Thirsts than Intuitions.  This is because Thirst is the better card.

[Ufactor]

@mbert

The point about graveyard hate is valid and something that I completely overlooked.  Everything else is false or over simplified.

... the reason why I suggested that Thirst is superfluous is that I've drawn it in my opening hand, and then proceeded to win the game without ever casting it.  If I have Intuition and Thirst at the same time, (barring said case of graveyard hate) then Intuition will almost always win me the game faster and yield more cards/options.

[meadbert]

I certainly agree that Intuition is more comobolicious and allows a faster goldfish.  When I goldfish I frequently find that Thirst is left in my hand so I have had similar experiences in that regard.
I still believe that Thirst is the better card in general.  In real games I usually play Thirst before Intuition.

If you have no AK in hand then you want to play Thirst first so you can hopefully draw 1 of your 4 AKs before you cast Intuition.  This way you are drawing 7 cards.

If you do have an AK in hand, then Intuition just became the better card so if you are playing against a control deck you will want to play Thirst first to either bait out a counter or draw into a counter yourself.

At the end of the day, Drain Tendrils basic strategy is to "out draw" rather than "win fast" and Thirst works better in there.  Drain Tendrils really wants to resolve 1 Intuition.  Additional Intuitions are not useless or bad at all, but they are no where near as good as Thirst.  Drain Tendrils is perfectly happy to cast Thirst after Thirst and continue to generate obscene card advantage.

[RaleighNCTourneys]

@Ufactor--

In my opinion, none of Bert's comments on TFK were false or oversimplified. I agree with everything he said.

I've recently moved from 4 TFK to 3 TFK so I could squeeze in an extra land and Dark Ritual. The difference is quite noticeable, and I'm currently trying to test the best way to get back the 4th TFK b/c I love them so much,

Aside from yard evasion, which is an important strength we all agree on, TFKs often out-number Intuitions 4:2 b/c TFK/AK is an engine as Bert pointed out and this is a huge strength not to be lightly brushed aside or overlooked. AKing for 2, 3 and then 4 gives you more cards than AK for 3 and 4, which Intuition does not allow for and TFK does. Both Intuition and TFK compliment each other nicely with the AK support, but the TFKs are what keep the deck going consistently and reliably. The TFKs are the workhorse "probability tutors" (card advantage engine) in the deck so that you can reliably find what you need in the deck and go through your cards efficiently and quickly. They are absolutely necessary.

[Ufactor]

I understand the strengths of this card - I really do!  It is one of the best cards in the format, which is not to say that it is as important as you think it is.  In Drain-Tendrils, it is really a non-necessity, and can be thought of as a Brainstorm that costs two more mana.  Thirst for Knowledge really tends to shine in only two scenarios:

1) Decks that have a mid-game (like Control Slaver), and

2) Deck that have specific cards that they need to place in their graveyard (also Control Slaver).