The ponderings of a noob sauce RE: Flash

[CodeRedrum]

In my first vintage tournament I ran a version of Flash, more specifically the Sliver version.  I was told by my mentor that this build was better.
Carrion Feeder
Reveillark (sp)
Mogg Fanatic
Body Snatcher
Body Double
2x Daze
4x Merchant Scroll
4x Flash
4x Brainstorm
4x Pact of Negation
4x FOrce of Will
Demonic Tutor
Vamp Tutor
Elvish SPirit Guide
3x Protean Hulk
4x Summoners Pact
Chain of Vapor
Mystical Tutor
Ancestral Recall
Misdirection
Mox Emerald
Mox Jet
Mox Sapphire
Mox Ruby
Mox Pearl
Black Lotus
Lotus Petal
Mana Crypt
Island
2x Tropical Island
3x Underground Sea
2x Flooded Strand
3x Polluted Delta
Sideboard
4x Reverent Silence
Seal of Primordium
4x Virulent Sliver
Heart Sliver
4x Leyline of the Void

Now obviously I see why improving the kill to instant speed is a good improvement, however, my confusion doesn't lie in the MD changes it lies in the SB.  From what I have seen most opponents will SB in Leyline of the Void when they are playing flash.  If I were to SB in the slivers and take out the instant fanatic combo I have only slightly changed my win condition and will still be fearing the Leyline.  Now I understand that Reverent SIlence is an answer to Leyline as is Echoing truth ( which I would fit in the SB) what I don't understand is why the SB contains so many cards that are reliant on the same combo as the MB couldn't these slots be used to either A) counter common T8 vintage decks or B) have an alternate somewhat unexpected win condition that could dance around the typical Leyline answer?
If I didn't say it already, I am VERY new to vintage, so maybe I am overlooking or overthinking the obvious but if someone would please clarify I would appreciate it.

[PhilipJFry]

The Sliver build dodges Pithing Needle, an often played hate card that can shutdown the Carrion Feeder or Mogg Fanatic used in the Revillark combo.  There may be other reasons, but Pithing Needle is the first thing that comes to mind for me in response to your question.

[CodeRedrum]

Well I was partially correct, I did overlook the obvious pithing needle wreckage.  I still feel that if an opponent of this deck has leyline and needle they will put in both for games 2 and 3.  Syntheticangel has recomended a Tarmogoyf SB to completely alter the kill in FLash for games 2 and 3 and I think that is a great idea, are there any other suggestions for altering the kill on this deck in the SB?

[VsTheWorld]

I would decide on a single kill for the maindeck and then try out the Goyf aggro plan in the board. If your opponent only has one of either Leyline or Needle, it's more likely to be Leyline, which stops both Flash combos equally. Both Flash kills take up the same number of slots, but Slivers aren't vulnerable to Needle or mid-combo Extirpate. I honestly don't see what's better about Reveillark combo than 4x Virulent and 1x Heart Sliver. Slivers can even be hardcast in a pinch.

[Moxlotus]

I honestly don't see what's better about Reveillark combo than 4x Virulent and 1x Heart Sliver

Stupid crap like Oathing into Blazing Archon, Moat, Ensnaring Bridge, or blockers in general don't stop you
You can kill through Platz
You kill at instant speed
    Makes Pact infinite better as you can Pact duresses
    Makes Merchant Scroll even better since Pact is better
    Can kill them in response to them tapping out

[feyd]

can someone please explain to me how this combo even works?  I see reveillark and body double are both 5cmc so if you flash you can get either one of them and either carrion feeder or mogg fanatic.  That means that you would have to flash twice?  PLease ellaborate

[Moxlotus]

can someone please explain to me how this combo even works?  I see reveillark and body double are both 5cmc so if you flash you can get either one of them and either carrion feeder or mogg fanatic.  That means that you would have to flash twice?  PLease ellaborate

Flash
get carrion feeder and body double.  copy hulk
sack bodydouble(hulk). get reveillark and mogg fantastic
shoot w/ fantastic
sack reveillark. get fantastic and bodydouble. copy reveillark.
shoot w/ fantastic. sack bodydouble(reveillark). get fantastic and bodydouble--copy reveillark
repeat infinite times.

[feyd]

that explains the combo.  But what makes this combo less vulnerable than sliver flash to all the the hate running around?  Bomberman runs  needle mainboard sometimes, and fish runs swords main, but swords hits heart sliver and then you are one turn behind.  I can see this being about as effective as slive flash.  Not having an attack phase makes it slughtly less vulnerable but still having the grave as a vulrenerable piece of the combo makes it weak, and the side makes it just as vulrenerable to hate as the main.

[Outlaw]

that explains the combo.  But what makes this combo less vulnerable than sliver flash to all the the hate running around?  Bomberman runs  needle mainboard sometimes, and fish runs swords main, but swords hits heart sliver and then you are one turn behind.  I can see this being about as effective as slive flash.  Not having an attack phase makes it slughtly less vulnerable but still having the grave as a vulrenerable piece of the combo makes it weak, and the side makes it just as vulrenerable to hate as the main.

The bubble kill doesnt make it any less vulnerable realistically, it adds a new level of having an instant speed kill.  Flashing on end step to flash on upkeep or flash in response to pact triggers is what the ticket is. 

[Everrid1234]

In my opinion there are a few things to consider about this deck:

What should be used as a "hate-engine"? Daze is just not good enough here because the deck lacks mana denial. Pact is too narrow to be played 4 times imo, even with the new kill. It is too optimistic to count on the upkeep flash kill. 3 is the max number imo.
Why are counters played? To prevent the opponent's hate and countering. So there sould be played Duress-effects. Thoughtseize is much better than Duress here because of the quick win (turns 1-4).
Narrow counters like Misdirection should not be played as more than 2-ofs.

And the most important point: Look at Flash's SB strategy. What do you always see there? Hate against Leyline. So my idea would be (as posted before in this forum) to play an alternative win in the SB. An Oath-Engine. Simple but strong imo. Maybe even a 3rd kill: My SB allows to win by Gifts--> Will.
There should be bounce of 3 different cc to have a chance vs. Stax starting the game (Spheres are very good against Flash, believe it or not).
I think in this configuration it is extremely hard to board against, you even don't know what you are playing against.

What should be the maindeck win so? If you face a creature-heavier game i suggest the new kill, if not: the old kill (Slivers).
If you play the new kill maindeck, the cool thing is: You can play the Orchards in the maindeck which also improves your pre-SB Oath matchup (this point is really unimportant). seeing lots of blockers doesn't disturb this deck, you don't have to hurry.

Since i don't like the Summoner's Pacts TOO much i packed an Imperial Seal as a more general tutor (also for Oath post-SB) and cut the ESG, because its not really worth the spacewhen I went down to 2 Pacts.

My deck:

4 Polluted Delta
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Underground Sea
4 Forbidden Orchard
1 Tropical Island
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
4 Force of Will
2 Pact of Negation
4 Thoughtseize
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Brainstorm
2 Summoner's Pact
1 Ponder
1 Imperial Seal
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Flash
4 Protean Hulk
1 Body Snatcher 
1 Body Double     
1 Reveillark         
1 Mogg Fanatic     
1 Carrion Feeder       

SB:

4 Oath of Druids
3 Platinum Angel (great against Ichorid, great with Pacts) - alternatively 3 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rushing River
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Regrowth (nice to get Ancestral back or Y. Will if it was oathed in the grave)
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmots Will
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tinker

What do you think? Maybe you want 1 more Pact of Negation in the main and cut something for it.
You could even play the SB: -Duress/Tinker - 4 X + 5 Slivers (but Forbidden Orchard Main nerves here).
I would like to include 2 more Pacts (each one: one more), 1 Misd and an ESG but i can't find room.

I think the build is quite strong, although there is much more hate against it in the field: SwordstP, Needle, Tormod's Crypt....

But i have one question: If a part of the combo creatures (not the Hulks) is in my hand: Can i win the game? If yes, how? Is there a creature which should never be in your hand when comboing out? I think it's the Body Snatcher, right?

[Necrologia]

But i have one question: If a part of the combo creatures (not the Hulks) is in my hand: Can i win the game? If yes, how? Is there a creature which should never be in your hand when comboing out? I think it's the Body Snatcher, right?

The only creature that can keep you from winning if it's in your hand is Carrion Feeder. You need to either Brainstorm it back or hardcast it.

Body Snatcher is actually irrelevant to the combo. It's only used if you happen to have one of the other non-Carrion Feeder combo pieces in hand. If you have Revilark or Body Double in hand, just fetch out Body Snatcher instead. Discard the offending creature, sac the Snatcher to Carrion Feeder and continue as normal. Fanatic in hand requires you to bring back Body Double as Hulk an extra time, and fetch out the Body Snatcher to pitch Fanatic. You can combo out normally from there.

[JewLightning]

Personally, I like the Oath sideboard and if I were to play this deck (Only if I am severely hung over the day of a tournament) I would go that route, it makes your cards suck less. Tarmogoyf is great, but compared to platinum angel he is less significant in a lot of matches because if you have Tarmogoyf and Pact of Negation = sad face, but Platz and Pact are great. As for the number of Pact of Negation it should be times 4. My success against Flash would go through the roof if my opponents played 2 Pacts I would love it.

Brennen

P.S. I am not sure the optimum mainboard build for Flash, but the Rev. kill is the best kill for it I am sure of that.

[Everrid1234]

Why are you so sure? They both have pros and cons.
The Reveillark combo is so easy to hate. A direct damage spell, SwordsTP, Planar Void, Tormods Crypt, Leylines, Withered Wretch, Pithing Needle, Extirpate. But i still think it is pretty good because you have bounce and Thoughtseize/counters.
The big pro is that you can explode in any time of the game and don't lose to stupid blockers, also ETW-tokens. Since the Oath-SB solves this problem of creature-heavy opposing decks, i would like a bit more to run the Slivers main, but the 4 free SB slots are really nice.

I would suggest to think about 2-3 Trygon Predator SB, if you have free space. It solves most of the problems. A nice point would also be: You could bring in Oaths and the Predators vs. Stax I think about cutting the Time Walk and the Rushing River for 2 Predators since these cards aren't absolutely necessary. After a Will-Turn--> ETW i actually don't need Time Walk because i should have some counters on hand and thoughtseized him once.

The problem of the Pacts is that they are only good when you already have the combo on hand. This often means you were tutoring around for some time. During this time Pact is useless. Imo it's more necessary to find the combo parts than protecting it too much because in the time you search you will probably find the needed protection.

Has anyone tried the 3rd kill from my SB? I find the Oath/Gifts combination quite nice. Oath is a "1-card-combo" and while the opponent tries to solve the Angel problem i lean back and look if i can get the combo together. Ok, not THIS easy, but i think it's strong against slower combo-decks which use the time I oath up angels to win with a protected E. Truth.