[Deck]Not Quite Goblins.

[Mantis]

Goblins
Goblins have never really been the primary choice of most T1 players. It lacks brokeness. But then Wizards printed Earwig Squad and if you can consistently get this monster out by turn 2, it steals games. Decks in the past have used Jesters Cap and decks in the past have also used Juggernaut. This one card is these two cards combined for a lower manacost and thus this is the foundation of this deck. Unfortunately you are only allowed to play 4. But there's also Bitter Ordeal, a card which received some hype when it was printed but never really lived up to that.
When you combine Bitter Ordeal and Earwig Squad you have 8 cards that can destroy an entire library. The great thing about Bitter Ordeal is the Gravestorm which puts copies on the stack for each permanent put into a graveyard this turn, this means a FoW only counters 1 copy. This also means that the card is awesome with Fetchlands and.. Skirk Prospector. This little guy also happens to work very well with Earwig Squad and allows you to consistently power out one of the two cards by turn two.

Turn one mountain --> Skirk Prospector
Turn two fetchland, attack with skirk, sac fetch and skirk play Bitter Ordeal for 3 or Earwig Squad.

Thus the objective of this deck is simple, strip out all the winconditions of an opponent's library.

The list:
4 Skirk Prospector
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Matron
4 Dark Confidant
4 Earwig Squad
2 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
1 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stingscourger/Warren Weirding

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bitter Ordeal

1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring/Lotus Petal
4 Badlands
3 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Mountain
1 Swamp

SB:
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Warren Weirding
1 Stingscourger
4 Shattering Spree

Card explanations:
Dark Confidant: this is a replacement for Goblin Ringleader, as this deck can't support Ringleader. In general I think Ringleader just is not good enough for T1. Sometimes a Mana Crypt and a Dark Confidant may pose life problems. Confidant is necessary to keep drawing gas.

Mogg Fanatic: Great against Dredge and awesome against the new Flash kill. It also kills Goblin Welders and Confidants. 12 1 mana Goblins ensure that you can hit your second turn Earwig Squad.

Goblin Lackey: Compared to conventional Goblin lists, the Lackey is very underwhelming here. That said, it's still pretty good. It's a great bluff to bait Force of Wills and Drains, and still very good with Goblin Matron.

Cabal Therapy: All Goblin lists should run 4 of these. Although Brainstorm is a great answer to Therapy, it's still awesome. Especially postboard when you know what the opponent is playing.

Wort, Boggart Auntie: In attrition wars or in the Stax matchups, it just gives you that edge. A lot of the time it's not needed but when you do, Matron just gets it for you.

The manabase: No Wastelands ensures you have a solid manabase. No Barbarian Rings, because you can't support the lifeloss and their effect is rarely good. 8 Fetchlands, because of Bitter Ordeal.

Thoughts on the deck:
I am thinking about cutting the green splash and Tin Street Hooligan in favor of a small blue splash for Ancestral Recall and Time Walk. I think in almost all situations I would rather be casting Recall or Time Walk than Tin Street Hooligan.

How to play the deck:
It's important that you don't wait. Don't wait for next turn to cast your Ordeal because you can pick two cards more from their deck that way. Don't wait for turn two with your Therapy because you want to cast Goblin Lackey first. A next turn might never come. This was the greatest lesson I learned from playing this deck, the format is so fast and unpredictable you just should not take gambles. Even when it looks to be favorable, you have to disrupt as much as you can. There's no FoW to hide behind.

Matchups:
Flash:
Very favorable. Therapy and Fanatic to slow them down while you can get Ordeal or Earwig Squad in to remove their win conditions.
Post board you get Leyline and REB, to make matters worse for them.

Oath:
Unfavorable, although more testing might reveal something else. Albeit a lot better than conventional Goblins list have against Oath. Your best bet is either to Therapy their Oath's away or hoping they don't have a quick Oath. Then play Ordeal or Earwig Squad and remove their wincoditions.
Postboard REB comes in and hopefully the matchup will become better. I'm undecided if the creaturehate should come in here.

Workshop decks in general:
Pretty good matchup, but if we take out Tin Street Hooligan the matchup obviously becomes slighty worse. You've got tons of permanents, Triskelion is a problem though. Wort is key in this matchup, if you get it online you can just keep recurring your permanents over and over. Postboard the Shattering Sprees come in and depending on the opposing deck; the creature hate.

Stormcombo:
A race, can you remove their winconditions before they kill you? I'm not really sure on the precentages here, haven't tested it enough.

GAT:
Can go both ways, Therapy is key here as is Stingscourger. Wort + Stingscourger or Gempalm Incinerator can punish them.

Dredge:
Preboard very unfavorable, and postboard I think about even. Leylines are obviously good and Fanatics also help.

I've found that if you play well, this deck is able to beat most of the top tier. Most decks are not well equipped to handle Bitter Ordeal, FoW just doesn't stop it. Also if you can squeeze an Earwig Squad through you are in good shape.
I think this deck has potential, but I posted it here to get some feedback on how to improve the deck.

Later, Mantis.

[zabuza]

hello, i´ve been playing with goblins and earwig since it was printed. I like this little so much...

Now i´m testing with bitter ordeal too and i´ve found some issues i want to talk about.

First of all i´m using urza´s bauble. it can seems silly but make your ordeal bigger and gives you a piece of information and a card too.I think they are neccesary in this deck.

Another thing i´m using is goblin goon because goblins we are playing are very small (we only have piledriver and earwig that can frighten to opponents) and because nowdays all people plays tarmogoyf. Goon is bigger than tarmogoyf everytime i´ve played it and you can bring it to game withlackey or skirk or moxen/crypt/ring very early on the game.

there are a problem i can find a solution for, card advantage. Confidant isn´t a goblin, can´t be searched or put into play for free and the most of the times it hurts you a lot (earwig, goon, ordeal, warchief, wort, etc). In this deck i don´t like it but i can´t find a good replacement for it.

So please tell me what do you think about it. I´ll be waiting for your answers.

zabuza

[Lemnear]

Bauble is crap! Did you even realize that Fanatic, Hooligan and Prospector actually jump in the grave as you wish ... even with therapy Ordeal will be insane ... but I see the decks reliability to Squad/Ordeal. That if you face a deck other than Flash or Oath (What? You took my Tyrants? Well, taste my Will!) maybe Staxxx, which drops the mainboard use of Jester's Cap due to many matups in which those are pretty useless, you'll be beaten. Even a fish create more pressure on the board than this deck. I won't cut Squad but running Leylines main would be better than ordeal. Did you consider Frogtosser Banneret? Using it with Leyline/Squad/Discarder in a much more traditional gobbo-deck would be pretty solid.

Confidant ist good but if you want to have goblin-based-carddraw use the regular route via ringleader. By the way ... why complain 'bout Confidant? Cant't remember Bauble is a Goblin ... 


@mantis: As Staxxx is named here ... Staxx's going aggro a while ago and drops the Staxx itself by doing it. They'll overrun this deck even you'll have trouble to find and cast Wort anyways. Guess a Welder is still better than everything else.

[Mantis]

Whilst I do agree the my matchupanalysis might be skewed (I did not test enough), I found that postboard you have so much creature hate + Shattering Spree, they won't be able to overrun you.

I am actually quite happy about Confidant. Goblin Ringleader is crap without Goblin Lackey. A 4 mana drop should get you a long way towards winning but Goblin Ringleader simply isn't going to win you games that easily. If you flip 1 or 0 goblins it's actually a very bad card. Whilst a Ringleader usually nets you about 2 cards Confidant will usually net you a lot more for half the manacost. While Ringleader is more synergistic with the deck, Confidant in a vacuum is so much better than Ringleader he can make up for the lack of synergy by just being so powerful.

[zabuza]

Well, the deck i´m playing now is solid and is more agressive then fish. I still play piledriver and warchief so i can play earwig, goon or piledriver and trust me, they are great killers. About playing vs Stax i use pulverize on the side. It´s free(ok, probably you´ll pay three mana for it because trinisphere or any sphere but it kills stax 4ever.).

Baubles are not good, i know it, but in this deck make you can play an ordeal of 4 or greater in second turn sio i´m still testing it.

You said about eat my wiil in an oath matchup, What wiil if i´ve removed it from the game wuith my oprdeal or the earwig?? oath usually plays 2 tidespout tirant a brainfreeze (and sometimes  a simic in the side) i can remove alll win cponditions for sure.

i don´t like confidant because isn´t a goblin (and my deck is more goblin oriented) and because it can hurt you a lot. Beside of this i don´t like ringleader because it cost 4 mana and in this deck usually you only draw 1 card or two with them, so i´m trying to find another replacemernt for them.   

if you want, tell me and  I´ll post my list here so you can test it and tell me what do you think about.

[madmanmike25]

I like the idea of Confidant in Goblins, not sure how well it works yet but it seems interesting. 

Do you ever feel that 4 Earwigs AND 4 Ordeals are a tad much?  You say never to wait to cast Ordeal, so how often do you end up paying 3 mana to Extract an opponent?   Squad is solid because it's a beater, but I think you *may* be able to cut an Ordeal or two.

If not, have you tried out Skullclamp?  Seems like a good draw engine here and has synergy with Ordeal.  It can also (along with Therapy) help ensure you don't die to your own Confidants.  Greatness at the cost of dying isn't so hot.

Neat deck, SB looks good too.

Mike

[Mantis]

Well, you have 4 Fanatic, 4 Prospector, 8 Fetchlands, Black Lotus (and Lotus Petal which I think is going to replace Sol Ring), thats 17 cards.
Anyway, I was also thinking about Taurean Mauler and now that I saw it in a T8 list it should definitely be tested.

About the Ordeals, I think 4 is the rigt number. If you cut 2 Ordeals you decrease focus of your deck and it just becomes an nonexplosive and generally bad Goblins list. If you want to cut down on the Ordeals I think it's best to just play conventional Goblins.

I should probably have mentioned this in my original thread, but I can't take credit for this deck. I did not design it, I played a Spanish guy on MWS and he actually built this deck to hate out his Oath heavy meta. Not sure if he succeeded in doing that as I don't think bringing an Aggro deck to an Oath heavy metagame is a good idea.

I should note that I really am not sure if this deck has got what it takes to take down the top tier. From my limited testing the deck is very unforgiving, unlike other Vintage decks it doesn't have the ability to go broken with Recall and Will. This is the reason I said you can never wait with the Bitter Ordeals, you might not get to untap again.

Skullclamp needs to be tested, but I'm not a big fan of Clamp. I find it to be too manaintensive. Although clamping a Matron could be awesome.

That's all.

[zabuza]

Hi again. I´m from Spain and in the last vintage tournament i´ve gone (40-50 players) there was a guy playing goblins with bitter ordeal. He was who gave me the idea of testing a deck with this card in it. He entered in top8 (he lost the match with a staxxx so i figure he made a 5 o 6 place on top8).

I think the deck can be a nightmare for combo decks and for decks like DT, Oath, flash, etc since they usually have 3 win conditions or so.

I´ve tested skullclamp but it doesn´t work fine in the deck.
i´ve tested confidant and is not bad but i don´t like him.

I think ypou must play or piledriver or any other big beater in deck because only having earwig to win is not a good idea.

I think 3 Ordeal + 1 in side is the right number of them because you usually only want to play one of them and win. Other you draw after the first will be very less powerful.

 any other ideas?


PD1: what about knucklebone witch?? it could be fine with any other kamikaze goblins.
PD2: I tested mauler but i still prefer goon.
PD3: what about  Sensation Gorger?  could it replace confidant? It could be fine because if you are few lucky you can use its ability to fin the ordeal or any other thing.

[Mantis]

I'm not really sure how Goblin Goon is so good. It only helps when you have already got a steady force beating down and in this scenario having a disruption spell would be much better. But then again if it works for you, I might have to try it out.

[zabuza]

I´ve been testing the deck again and i think it´s quite good. I´ve arrived to the next conclusions.

1) The goon are not good enough for the deck. Casting cost of 4 is very slow and they are very good if you play them by lackey, but not always is possible and then they are in hand lot of time.

2) i don´t like cabal therapy in this deck. I´m going to explain it before you blame me for saying such thing. The end of the deck is to play an ordeal or an earwig as soon as you can and preferibly on second turn. To do that you need to play a turn 1 prospector or have any aceleration (moxen, crypt, lotus, petal). If you have aceleration is ok (but remember you need a turn one guy to earwig so you are not going to play therapy anyway) but otherwise you will want to play turn one prospector turn 2 your threats go home. In this case you are not going to play therapy till third turn and by then you must have removed the win conditions of the oponent, so therapy is bad.

3) i´m running 4 warchief because if you begin with mana lackey, in second turn you can put a warchief with lackey and then play an earwig for two mana so it´s another way to remove threats on second turn.

4) i don´t like ringleaders (cc4 and in this deck you are not going to draw a lot with them) and i´m trying to cut matron because they are slow. (anyway, matron could stay but ringleader is not an option).

5) Dark confidant is not another good card for the deck because is not a goblin, you can take much damage easily (warchief, earwig, ordeal, etc.) and is not a goblin.

6) i´m going to give another chance to Taurean mauler because it´s a goblin that can hurt GAT and storm decks easily. it si not going to stop them but if they give you a turn this machine will eat your aponent saying "muuuuu".

7) I´ve tested skullclamp, mirror entity, tutors (vamp, demonic), and they aren´t good anough for the deck.

8) i don´t know what to do with goblin welder. It helps you to cast a bigger ordeal( i.e.changing mox for lotus) and save you from colossus but i´m not sure if they can enter here.

9) a guy that i think is very strong in the deck is magus of the moon. I´m thinking on playin it in main or side. They are great.

10) Can the new goblin of shadowmoor that made your spells uncountereable enter in the deck?

Ok, i´ll be waiting for your ideas and answers.

[Mantis]

Correct me if wrong, but you are suggesting to cut the Confidants for Warchiefs? And you also want to cut the Therapies for Magus of the Moon?
I think this chances are not for the better. First of all Confidants are just awesome, sure the damage can hurt and you will lose some random games to that, but how are Warchiefs going to win you those kind of games?

Therapy is awesome, I just can't stress how good it is. The point of this deck is indeed to play a Bitter Ordeal but for that to happen you will need to survive untill turn 3 a lot of the time and Therapy helps you surviving. Therapy is just awesome I love it to death and it fits this deck perfectly. Lots of 1/1 critters that are just waiting for you to get rid of them, who needs a 1/1 Goblin Matron? Or a Skirk Prospector when you got 12 mana up anyway. Want to get rid of Confidant because it is killing you, Therapy is your card. You are talking about how a Goblin that doesn't allow counterspells is going to be awesome. Therapy does JUST THAT! And more.
Don't give up on THerapy so easily it's a card you need to get familiar playing with.

[zabuza]

i´m not suggesting you must change one for another. Look at the deck that made a second place in a tournament of 45 person.

1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
4 Earwig Squad
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Mogg Fanatic
2 Skirk Prospector
1 Stingscourger
3 Taurean Mauler


Lands (16):
4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
6 Mountain
2 Wooded Foothills

3 Extirpate
2 Goblin Bombardment
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Shattering Spree



The only changes i´ve maid to the deck is changing the 4 LOTV for bitter ordeal and changing the side removing 2 goblin bombarment + 1 extirpate for the 4 LOTV. i´ve removed the sharpshooter and stingscourger from main to use 4 prospector on main.


As you can see this deck don´t use confidants, therapies, .....

i´m going to try to explain my thoughts in a better way. You said that therapies is the only way for the deck to survive third turn and so on. But when are you planning to cast therapy?
First turn prospector,
second fetch ordeal (you have removed 3 win conditions from the opponent´s deck) so what are you afraid of?

Beside of that therapy is only useful when you know what´s playing the opponent so if you like them you could use it in side nor in the main because in first mutch up are useless.  In staxx match-up therapies are not good too so i think they are not good enough for the deck.

Magus of the moon was an option to sideboard to fight vs GAT and decks with a bad manabase but i think if yu want them ithe mus come in in second game when opponen´t doesn´t expect them. Only in sdb.

I don´t like confidants on this deck because confidant is not a goblin, you can´t put it into play with lackey, you can reduce it´s casting cost with warchief (and it hasn´t haste too). You can´t not find it with matron, it doesn´t pump piledriver, etc. I´m playing with ringleader (only 3 of them) because this deck is not a control deck so you want to win as fast as you could. Confidant is only going to give you 3 cards (if you play it in first turn and you are going to take several damages too) till 4th turn when the deck MUST kill. With ringleader you can play ir for free(lackey) and it can give you 4 cards but usually gives you a couple or three. The only disadvantage of ringleader is that it cost 4 so lackey is required. But don´t be afraid, if lackey doen´t appear you can cast it with warchief very early.

As you can see i´m playing a goblins deck with ordeal and earwig because there is more sinergy and because it works good. I´m not saying that therapy or confidant are bad cards. I´m only saying that they are good cards but not for this deck.

I hope you understand what i´m trying to say.

I´ll be waiting for more answers. Please give your oppinion. 

[Mantis]

That list looks quite strong. Although I'm not even sure if Bitter Ordeal over Leyline is the right choice. I wouldn't cut Stingscourger. Cut a Taurean Mauler instead.
Therapy has always been so awesome to me, but I could try to cut it and see how it goes.

Perhaps I should indeed go back to the old Goblin suite, but I'll keep Confidant in mind anyway.

[kkoie]

Have you guys considered greater gargadon in the side for the oath match?  Granted it isn't a goblin, but it works great with bitter ordeal as another sac outlet, and is great to slowdown the oath until you are ready to take out their win conditions.

[Mantis]

That looks like a very good option, it will VASTLY improve the Oath matchup. If you get a Gargadon down and they have an Orchard + Oath, we have 5 turns to find either an Ordeal and finish the game by providing them with a bigger storm then they can possibly counter, or we drop another Gargadon to stall some more and find the Ordeal.

The problem with this approach is that if you fail to find the Ordeal or they Storm you out before you find the Ordeal, you lose. They could also hold onto one of their winconditions, so you need Therapy there. Although, most people don't expect Ordeal anyway.

Yet another strategy against Tyrant Oath are the Piledrivers which can't be hit by the Tyrants and if you have 2 you get in for 6 per turn.

[the boogie man]

Even if you weren't playing ordeal, which I don't like, You could just stall. Building up a fat hand and laying mana, then attacking with a 9 power dude, plus perhaps a warchief into an ear wig squad with lackey or something. even warcheif + fanatic (or another piledriiver, I was just being realistic) + piledriver is 8 damage and 5 mana, and that could be done in the turns that one gargadon would buy. Plus, if gargadon isn't countered, you pretty much win. if its bounced, you just suspend it again.

[zabuza]

I like gargadon. In fact i´m thinkint to put one copy on main because it can do HUGE ordeals that win the match instantly. Imagine a gargadon and an ordeal in your hand. I´ve been testing it (this time only me and the wall) and it can be superb.

So Gargadon rules!!!

The maulers are good too. IOf you play them fast they become bigger, enormous, giant, ....

On side i´m testing pulverize vs stax. It´ñs wonderful because it cleans all artifacts and then you can play a giant ordeal that puts almost the opponent´s deck on the grave. Wonderful.

Another good ideas or suggestions?? 

[Mantis]

Tested some games against GAT yesterday we went 2-2 in games but one game we both forgot Jailer stops the flashback on Therapy, so that game was a bit skewed. I ran the version zabuza suggested with 4 Therapies in the maindeck.

I starting to dislike Bitter Ordeal. Quite frankly, it doesn't do anything in a lot of matchups. Before I ran Gob-lines, with Leyline of the Void and that was in fact very strong. In this metagame a few decks rely heavliy on their graveyard such as Ichorid and Flash, most decks however have other paths to victory but do use their graveyard, be it to set up Will, to use Goblin Welder and Crucible or to make their Togs and Goyf grow. There are very few matchups where Leyline just doesn't do anything whereas there a lot of matchups where Ordeal does nothing.

Ordeal also requires you to run 4 Skirk Prospector, where I would much rather have Fanatics instead. Furthermore, Ordeal costs mana which means you have to make choices wheter to play a threat or to dirsupt, Leyline allows you to do both.

I should note that the choice between Ordeal and Leyline is largely metagame dependant, and in some metagames where there is a lot of Oath and Storm combo, Ordeal is probably better.
In metagames with a lot of Flash, Ichorid, Stax and GAT, I would rather go with the Leylines.

[tinkerer]

I should probably have mentioned this in my original thread, but I can't take credit for this deck. I did not design it, I played a Spanish guy on MWS and he actually built this deck

Here I am... I´m the spanish guy who design it. The same guy who made top 8 and zabuza is talking about.
Firstly, Mantis you have a very old version. I play it in a different way now: here you can find a report too.

http://foro.elsantuario.es/index.php/topic,2045.0.html


I really like you are talking about bitter ordeal. I know sometimes is not good, but is funny xD.

I´m thinking about therapy, sometimes they are so good... but ... i´m not sure about it. I like your idea about Taurean Mauler.

[coyoteuglly]

i´m not suggesting you must change one for another. Look at the deck that made a second place in a tournament of 45 person.

1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
4 Earwig Squad
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Mogg Fanatic
2 Skirk Prospector
1 Stingscourger
3 Taurean Mauler


Lands (16):
4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
6 Mountain
2 Wooded Foothills

3 Extirpate
2 Goblin Bombardment
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Shattering Spree



The only changes i´ve maid to the deck is changing the 4 LOTV for bitter ordeal and changing the side removing 2 goblin bombarment + 1 extirpate for the 4 LOTV. i´ve removed the sharpshooter and stingscourger from main to use 4 prospector on main.


As you can see this deck don´t use confidants, therapies, .....

i´m going to try to explain my thoughts in a better way. You said that therapies is the only way for the deck to survive third turn and so on. But when are you planning to cast therapy?
First turn prospector,
second fetch ordeal (you have removed 3 win conditions from the opponent´s deck) so what are you afraid of?

Beside of that therapy is only useful when you know what´s playing the opponent so if you like them you could use it in side nor in the main because in first mutch up are useless.  In staxx match-up therapies are not good too so i think they are not good enough for the deck.

Magus of the moon was an option to sideboard to fight vs GAT and decks with a bad manabase but i think if yu want them ithe mus come in in second game when opponen´t doesn´t expect them. Only in sdb.

I don´t like confidants on this deck because confidant is not a goblin, you can´t put it into play with lackey, you can reduce it´s casting cost with warchief (and it hasn´t haste too). You can´t not find it with matron, it doesn´t pump piledriver, etc. I´m playing with ringleader (only 3 of them) because this deck is not a control deck so you want to win as fast as you could. Confidant is only going to give you 3 cards (if you play it in first turn and you are going to take several damages too) till 4th turn when the deck MUST kill. With ringleader you can play ir for free(lackey) and it can give you 4 cards but usually gives you a couple or three. The only disadvantage of ringleader is that it cost 4 so lackey is required. But don´t be afraid, if lackey doen´t appear you can cast it with warchief very early.

As you can see i´m playing a goblins deck with ordeal and earwig because there is more sinergy and because it works good. I´m not saying that therapy or confidant are bad cards. I´m only saying that they are good cards but not for this deck.

I hope you understand what i´m trying to say.

I´ll be waiting for more answers. Please give your oppinion. 

If you are going to play Goblins just play the list as posted above.  Tinker with sideboard for your meta.  The only card you can really justify cutting from the main is the 1x Goblin Sharpshooter.  But even than when he is good he will just win you the game immediately and I wouldn't want to cut him.

And if you cut the Stingscourger you lose to any deck playing Tinker.

[zabuza]

I´ve thought of replacing stingscourger with:
--> warren weirding.
--> Goblin welder.
--> goblin tinkerer.
--> tin street hooligam


All of them have disadvantages and advantages, but i can´t decide what´s better for the deck.

I don´t like stingscourger because when you cast it you are only buying a few more time and usually you can´t afford paying its echo cost. Beside of this it never attacks because dies before and sometimes it´s unusefull (imagine you have a tarmogoyf in front of you, you only can remove it for one single attack but sometines a few more is required.)

Warren weirding removes the danger but it´s black(we already have enough black cards in the deck to support more) and it isn´t a creature so you can´t attack with it. The advantages is that you can made piledriver becomes greater (sacrificing one of your weenes) and that you can kill big cratures like colossus, tarmos, platinum, etc. The problem is that if thew opponent has two or more creatures he is going to choose the worst of them.

Goblin welder makes the tinker plan unviable because if they use tinker you are going to bring his moxen again killing the monster at the same time. The problem is that it only serves you when the oppoent is playing tinker but is useless when he palys tarmos, dreadnoughts, Oath platinum, etc. But another advantage is that if opponet plays controlslaver(or any kind of staxx) you can control him with your own welders.

Tinkerer is goood removing dreadnougts(awesome), platinum, sundering, etc but it doesn´t save you from colossus so....


And hooligan is not bad but the deck has already black so making the manabase more fragile to play them i think is not a good solution.  (and he doesn´t kill colosssus too).

What do you think about? Any ideas??

[Harlequin]

We did some testing on this deck a few weeks ago (when it was posted), and I must say the deck could really be insane.  A few things:

- Bitter Ordeal is amazing right now.  I think 4 maindeck is the right choice. 
-- Bitter Ordeal has synergy with card you -want- to run right now: Therepy, Fanatic, Warren Weirding
-- Bitter Ordeal can be amplified by 'good' cards that become insane through synergy: Prospector, Welder, Gargedon

Drawbacks: The deck has no good draw engine.
- Too gob-lite for Ringleader
- Too "i need it now" for Confidant
- Too demanding for Skull Clamp (both mana wise, and too many ways to sacrifice guys with too little guys)

Now, There are some cards in magic that I love... but that are terrible.  Such as Hommarid Spawning Pit, and Chaos Harlequin.  As a Joke, when Jer and I were testing the deck, I suggested that we add my "Coolest combo peice, with the best card name ever..."

No Rest for the Wicked
Enchantment
Sacrifice No Rest for the Wicked: Return to your hand all creature cards that were put into your graveyard from play this turn.

Now, don't get me wronge... This card is terrible and definately on the D-list for combo enablers (Kobald Clamp!).  But in testing it seems to fill the roll of reloading a hand surprisingly well.  I think it does so better than Ringleader, Confidant, and Skullclamp at least.  Its nice because you can 'set it and forget it' until the turn were you are going to do some stuff (ordeal or not).

Also I decided to Maindeck Greater Gargedon over Matron.  Matron almost never was pulling her wieght.  Having this beast maindeck DRAMATICALLY improves the oath match.  Because you can usually keep them off oath until you can Bitter Odeal them past the point of no return.


Another approach we tested was taking a Ravager Clamp build (with metal worker/staff, and myr retriver) - then running 8 Chrome Star/-atic Spheres and 4 Bitter Ordeals.  This deck could also be viable.

[chief]

The second place list posted by zabuza is mine.  The stingscourger in the main is for sure the right call.  Not just for the tinker situation, but it's so relvant so much of the time that you can have a warchief out, bounce a blocker, and get there for an extra two.  Also, in an aggro race (which you should win anyway) he bounces and chumps another dude (goyf, or what have you).  Warren weirding has made its way into my sideboard, and i am currently down to two taureans although the card was golden for me all day long in the tournament.  I am testing without leylines right now, and i haven't tested bitter ordeal but it seems like that card would be too much of an attempt to control your opponent.  In this deck i've found that disruption that costs you temp is not what you want to be playing- the squad keeps the beats coming (and how) while screwing your oppoent, and leyline's cost is minimal in that it occasionally gives you a dead draw.


As for the board, i have cut the goblin bombardments.  The oath match isn't too bad post board, and it is winable pre-board.  REB is huge there.

[the boogie man]

If you really wanted to run 4 bitter ordeal, mogg alarm is an interesting card, its free, adds 2 to the gravestorm count, and makes you a couple of goblins, which are even useful for cabal therapy, prospector, warchief, and piledriver.

[nero angelo]

Not that I don't like Ordeal, I just find it to be a "win-more" card. For me, it is unnesessary. Well, atleast for myself.

Earwigs does what Ordeal does.

It removes Tanglewires in Staxx, Skullclamps in Fish, Dreadnaughts in Deeznaughts, Creatures in Oath and so on. Plus, it could swing for a massive 5 damage, which puts your opponent into a 4 turn clock (assuming yor deck hates you and you only have the Prowler-enabler + Earwig whole day long.)

The problem with Ordeal, well, as I can see it, are the following:

-Casting Cost. Warchiefs don't reduce it.
-It is not a Goblin, hence cannot be drawn from Ringleader or cannot be fetched via Matron.
-It does not contribute to the swarm, does not swing by itself and needs to put atleast 1 card into your graveyard to be effective. Now what if the opponent drops a Leyline of the Void?

As I have said before, It is a win-more card in Goblins (with the support of Leylines, Earwig Squads, the DRAW power of Ringleader, the speed of HASTE, the Tutor power of Matrons plus the SWARM which by the way overruns Staxx...) Goblins can live without it.

Matchups I've dealth with:

Landstill: Swarm gets him. He cannot counter everything I drop (unless the Landstill player packs 30++ counters). Nev's Disk resets everything but Ringleaders quickly fills my hand. Remove the Mishra's Factory via Earwig. (Does Conclave pose a threat to you? or to anyone?)

Staxx: Lackey - Go. Staxx starts to sweat. The player must find in a Tangle Wire or a blocker to prevent the swarm in pushing through.

Flash: Leyline. Leyline, and Leyline. Sure, they have bounce. But when are they going to find it? When they are lower than 20 life due to Piledrivers? When their combo was stripped via Earwigs?

MUD: Kill Metalworker, kill their speed. Remove Tanglewire via Earwig and your on the right track.

Fish: Read Landstill. LotV helps him run out of gas, as Skullclamp cannot draw him cards.

Deeznaughts: Oh scary. 12/12 1st game is a scary hell. Pray for a Stingscourer and pray to your almighty one that it does not get countered. 2nd game, pack in those Shattering Sprees and your gonna love artifacts.

Sui Black: 1st game, you own them unless they got an early Jitte. 2nd game, strip off their Engineered Plagues (most of them packs only 3.) and stomp them with your swarm.

Oath: I hate this match. No, really, I do. I can say that this is probably the only match I wish I have an Ordeal. But wait, Earwig Squad is at our disposal. How many creatures do you run? 2? 3? Let me remove them for you.



About Ringleaders.

Why do you hate it?

It could be an Opt, a Thoughtcast, an Ancestrall Recall or a Meditation that can punch your opponent. The casting cost matters? Why do you think Warchiefs are on the deck?


About Dark Confidant.

It kills you. Slowly. Imagine topdecking an Earwig Squad. Next in line, is Goblin Matron/Ringleader. Ouch. Plus opponents will kill it. 2/1 is NOT that hard to kill. And where is your card advantage now? Do not get me wrong on this, Bob is a great card, but not for Goblines.


About removing Leylines.

Why oh why wouldn't you love them?

It turns Welders into Mon's Goblin Raiders.
It turns Flash into beatdown.
It turns Yawgmoth's Will into Yawgmoth's useless.
It turns Skullclamp to a sign that "kill me, I'm worthless".
It turns opposing Sharpshooters un-sharp.
It turns Crucible of Worlds into a 3cc worth-nothing-artifact.

You get what I mean? Love Leylines. they are saving your life.

anyways, all are based on my experience in piloting Gob-Lines.

[The Atog Lord]

Edit-

Verbal Warning removed, since it seems to have been caused by technical problems with your connection. Thanks for explaining what happened, Nero.

[UrzaTron]

Shusher definitely seems useful in this deck, the ability to guarentee a resolved earwig against say, Oath, seems critical right now

[kaos42069]

I know i posted this earlier but its not here...so let me try again...

I run 2 copies of sharpshooter main deck because it gets rid of EVERYTHING...if i dont have a llotv in play it stop ichorid, it kills plat angel faster...it takes out almost any creature in the meta.

Has anyone thought about main decking Tarfire? its a goblin...it can be fetched or ringleadered.

Mana base... why run 6 mountains? why not add in 2 more fetch lands and 4 of the RB shock lands? you HAVE to have turn 2 black mana for earwing squad...

Sideboard....
Pyrostatic Pillar .... why would you want to deal so much dmg to yourself? what are you going to stop that ? long? why not run thorn of amethyst instead? its more effective.
Pithing needle is a GREAT card for sideboard... its one of the most effective stops in the game.

[nero angelo]

At LotV

Uhm, Leyline of the Void is not only used as an Anti-Ichorid combo.
Plus, Ichorid gets mad in about turns 2-3 (unless they don't have a Bazaar, which I highly doubt),  way before 2 un-hasted Sharpshooters gets active..
Plus, Flash can kill you before Sharpshooter sees play.
Plus, Sharpshooter does nothing (aside maybe from pinging them 2 life, making -2 draw from Bargain .) to slow combo using Yawgmoth's Win. Will...

Well, based on my experience though...


At Pyrostatic Pillar.

I SB'ed this mainly because of Storm. Storms can find answers easily to Thorn of Amethyst, namely Hurkyl's Recall and Rebuild.

But yet again, they have Echoing Truth for Pillars so... hahahaha

Anyways, Pillars kill them (In addition of paying life through Necro/Bargain + using Vamp Tutors), Thorns don't...

In conclusion, Thorns maybe better than Pillars. I will test this out.

About the Oath Matchup.

What do most people prefer, the Greater Gargadon or Goblin Bombardment?

Greater Gargadon is a total CRAP in Oaths packing Akroma + Razia (the Boros Archangel? spell check?), which unless by some kind of miracle, you got atleast 2 Gargadons out, beating the hell out of Oath's pants.

Bombardment deals w/ them. Akroma doesn't see play.


About Tarfire.

I like this card, though I haven't tried it in my Goblines. It kills Welders, Metalworkers, other goblins, Trinket Mage, Meddling Mage w/o a fuzz. Plus yes, It can be drawn via Ringleader and tutored via Matron.

the downside? It does nothing about what probably our worst matchup, Oath.

But yet again, we have Gargadon/Bombardment in our SB for Oath. Still, I want to try this.

Edit-

Verbal Warning removed, since it seems to have been caused by technical problems with your connection. Thanks for explaining what happened, Nero.

Thanks sir. My connection is a total crap (31.2kbps MAX. That's right, "kbps" and "MAX".). By I'll keep in mind not to post consecutive replies. Thanks for deleting the non-sense posts.

[coyoteuglly]

@Mods

Can we combine this thread and the Goblin Sligh 2K8 thread?  They both have worked themselves to the same place.  Chief and I have also answered most of these questions there.  It is just getting redundant to have two threads.

@Everyone else

I have already answered kaos's questions regarding 2 Sharpshooters, Tarfire, and Pyrostatic Pillar here: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=35663.0

[quote author=kaos42069 link=topic=35588.msg497165#msg497165 date=1208928848
Mana base... why run 6 mountains? why not add in 2 more fetch lands and 4 of the RB shock lands? you HAVE to have turn 2 black mana for earwing squad...

Pithing needle is a GREAT card for sideboard... its one of the most effective stops in the game.[/quote]

I am really seriously trying to help you here.  But this is the last time I answer a question of yours in which you state something obviously stupid than can be answered by simply reading the card.

Yes Earwig Squad casting cost is 3BB.  By hard casting it though you do not trigger the prowl.  Which means you never want to do it.  There for 99% of the time you do not care if you have double black.  RTFC dude.

The situation in which this come up are not going to happen until turn 4 or 5 at the earliest.  It is also ridiculously rare in Type One for those situations to come up.  The only real situation you want to hard cast him is your opponent killed all your Goblins and you are top decking.  Almost never happens.

The reason to run 6 Mountains and 6 Fetches instead of 4 Mountains and 8 Fetches, is in the mid game Goblins is actually a pretty mana hungry deck.  And you actually want a well developed mana base.  This is even more pronounced by not running AEther Vials.  Blood Crypt shouldn't be played as a four of.  You could make a case for a one of.  But there is nothing more embarrassing for a virtually mono colored deck than losing to a Wasteland.

Pithing Needle fails based on the same reasons that Thorn does.  It also involves a lot more guessing, and if you are wrong about the named card, you are in even worse shape.  Also the list of cards that are played right now is pretty small in which it is effective against.

At Pyrostatic Pillar.

I SB'ed this mainly because of Storm. Storms can find answers easily to Thorn of Amethyst, namely Hurkyl's Recall and Rebuild.

But yet again, they have Echoing Truth for Pillars so... hahahaha

Anyways, Pillars kill them (In addition of paying life through Necro/Bargain + using Vamp Tutors), Thorns don't...

In conclusion, Thorns maybe better than Pillars. I will test this out.

About the Oath Matchup.

What do most people prefer, the Greater Gargadon or Goblin Bombardment?

Greater Gargadon is a total CRAP in Oaths packing Akroma + Razia (the Boros Archangel? spell check?), which unless by some kind of miracle, you got atleast 2 Gargadons out, beating the hell out of Oath's pants.

Bombardment deals w/ them. Akroma doesn't see play.

Don't even bother testing Thorn, they are crap in Goblins.  Hurkyl's and Rebuild are also much more common than Echoing Truth in peoples boards.  Echoing Truth is still also effectively +4 damage to them with a Pillar in play (2 from Merchant Scroll and 2 from Truth).

Personally, I agree with Chief from the other thread.  Neither of them are really needed.  The match up in all reality isn't that bad for Goblins.  Boarding in Extirpate and REB makes life really difficult on them.  Also if they are still running Angels so much the better for you.  Angels are actually easier to beat.  You are actually perfectly capable of racing them.

If I had to play one though it would be Gargs.  Because you can set up one big turn and alpha strike them using Warchiefs, Drivers and Gargs coming off suspend.