[Deck] Goblin Sligh 2K8

[Masta]

Real quick intro…I was drawn to this style 100% because I just got back into Magic and unfortunately my old Fish/Slaver builds don’t cut it anymore, and because I have a little feel for what’s out there right now.  Well, maybe 70% the above reasons and 30% because the best card ever is the basic Mountain.

Ok here’s the list, followed by my remarks. 

Old Skool Sligh 2K8
4 Raging Goblin
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg Fantastic
4 Goblin Piledriver
3 Goblin Warchief
2 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Goblin Goon

4 Reckless Charge
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Goblin Grenade
2 Fireblast

4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Lotus
1 Ruby

6 Mountain
4 Barbarian Ring
4 Bloodstained Mire

SB
X Null Rod
X Stingscourger
X Blood Moon
X REB
X Pyroblast
X Gorilla Shaman
X Shattering Spree
X Price of Progress

I know, I know…at first glance everyone dismisses Gobbos because well, their Gobbos and this is T1.  Please don’t underestimate the power of the Goblins.  This deck is so balls to the wall that it can very easily chew you up and spit you out by turn 3 no problem.  Even more so than it's previous version because of the addition of SSG.  From what I can gather about the current meta, it’s all over the place.  BUT, there’s obviously some pretty mad rampant graveyard hate going around via Extirpate, Leyline, Jailer, etc. which leads me to believe that many people will start adopting the popular GoodCards+DarkConfidant.dec, which I feel this deck eats for breakfast.  We've always used some sort of life loss in our gameplan, as life is a resource and the only loss of life that matters is that last point.  However since my return to MTG, it feels like a lot of decks out there now employ even more life loss into their gameplan than they did a few years back. In addition the the standard SacLands, FoWs, Vampies, and Fastbonds… Dark Confidant, Thoughtseize and Street Wraith all over the place.  So, given the scenario I think it’s reasonable to assume some Old Skool Sligh with the addition of Simian Spirit Guide can cause substantial damage.   

I’m not saying that this is the end all deck, after all it is Goblins.  And I’m aware that it most likely scoops to any respectable combo build Game 1.  Hopefully Game 2 enough annoying hate can be sided in to hold off the push while going critical.  So, since I’m seeing a lot of new rogue Control/Aggro builds showing up this deck seems to have what it takes to steal 2 quick wins before the opponent realizes what just happened.  It’s always been super fun to play with Goblins and I love the feeling of sneaking in a turn 1 Siege-Gang or Goon via Lackey and a Reckless Charge. 

Disregard my lack of numbers for SB cards.  I’ve been interchanging them to find a nice mix.  They’re more or less in what I feel is their order of effectiveness.  You’ll also notice that some popular cards for Gobbies aren’t in here mostly due to their lack of speed as follows…I do like Ankh a lot though.  It pains me to leave it out, the truth is it’s just to reactive and slow for the deck.

Ankh of Mishra
Pyrostatic Pillar
Food Chain (I hate FC, it’s an embarrassment to the Goblin Community)
Jackal Pup
Goblin Cadets
Goblin Vandal
Pryostatic Pillar
Goblin Recruiter
Goblin Tinkerer
Goblin Matron
Skirk Prospector

Discuss.

V/R
Masta

[Shock Wave]

Discuss.

Times have changed since you were last familiar with the metagame. This deck is not competitive. You have no disruption and your linear aggro strategy is very outdated. You lose to, well, basically everything. My suggestion is that you brush up on the following archetypes:

Flash
Tyrant Oath
Workshop Aggro
MUD

These are the big archetypes right now, although there are many other competitve decks at the moment. A quick review of how these decks function will immediate illustrate why your version of Goblins is not a viable archetype.

[Masta]

Discuss.

Times have changed since you were last familiar with the metagame. This deck is not competitive. You have no disruption and your linear aggro strategy is very outdated. You lose to, well, basically everything. My suggestion is that you brush up on the following archetypes:

Flash
Tyrant Oath
Workshop Aggro
MUD

These are the big archetypes right now, although there are many other competitve decks at the moment. A quick review of how these decks function will immediate illustrate why your version of Goblins is not a viable archetype.

lol, ouch.  I'd be lying if I said I don't feel a bit insulted by that.

Well, I agree with you that there's really not much chance against these types Game1 as the build sits now, but that's why we sideboard.  Or...that's why this board is called the Development board.  Maybe you could quit hating so much and provide some constructive criticism.  Sure the game has changed, but it seems like you're being closed-minded towards this.  I'm not trying to create the new Long or Slaver of the decade, nor am I trying to shake the world here.  It's just a fun Goblin deck that can win some games.

If by disruption you mean counter and discard, then yes, I have no disruption.  If you mean disruption to include spot removal, obviously this deck has plenty.    Goblins are inherently designed to put your opponent on a clock, ignoring whatever they do.  Would you like it better if I mained Null Rods, Waste/Strip, R'n'Ruin, Vandals, Shamans, Viashino Heretics?  What about siding a set of Mazes, possibly something like Threaten for Oath.  Would you advise siding LotV? 

I'm not that unfamiliar with what's up, a Workshop deck is a Workshop deck.  They don't tend to deviate very far from their core strategy.  I don't understand your complete dismissal of this deck against anything workshop.  Please remember it is a MonoRed deck and therefore can side in enough hate to make any Brown player more or less want to kill themselves.  As for Flash, pretty much any deck that doesn't run Blue pitch counters and/or Black disruption scoops to Flash.  In my post I was trying to Speculate that Flash won't be as rampant in the future because of all the hate it's seeing now.  In addition to that, everyone hates to play it, hates the players that play it, and I'd imagine Wizards will restrict it (not because of it's dominance, but because of the complaints created by it and because it's not in the spirit of the game to keep it around) And Tyrant Oath, well...I love Tyrant Oath, I'll probably run this at my next tournament.  I would think a full compliment of REB or Pyroblasts could put up a fight.  But like I said, this isn't the end all deck, it's just a Goblin deck.  We can't all come up with equivalents to Tyrant Oath in every post.

Seriously, this isn't how I want to spend my time discussing the Development of decks.  If you're going to post at all, don't just put up a simple, "umm...no." post.  Forgive me for trying to be different and not play the same 8 decks that everyone else plays.  I'm not trying to be too much of a D-Bag here, but your response is of the type that is counter-encouraging to people wanting to participate on these boards.

V/R
Masta

[coyoteuglly]

I recommend SCG winner Jamison Braynt's Goblin list:

2nd.
Jamison Bryant (ICBM)
GobLines

1 Mox Ruby
2 Wooded Foothills
6 Mountain
1 Lotus Petal
4 Badlands
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Jet
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Taurean Mauler
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Earwig Squad
2 Skirk Prospector
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Stingscourger

SB:
2 Goblin Bombardment
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Shattering Spree
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Extirpate


In http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?action=post;quote=496777;topic=35588.0;num_replies=22;sesc=80ac9b6a78ebb86f322d71cc84946092
 thread he made these comments recently about the deck:

The second place list posted by zabuza is mine.  The stingscourger in the main is for sure the right call.  Not just for the tinker situation, but it's so relvant so much of the time that you can have a warchief out, bounce a blocker, and get there for an extra two.  Also, in an aggro race (which you should win anyway) he bounces and chumps another dude (goyf, or what have you).  Warren weirding has made its way into my sideboard, and i am currently down to two taureans although the card was golden for me all day long in the tournament.  I am testing without leylines right now, and i haven't tested bitter ordeal but it seems like that card would be too much of an attempt to control your opponent.  In this deck i've found that disruption that costs you temp is not what you want to be playing- the squad keeps the beats coming (and how) while screwing your oppoent, and leyline's cost is minimal in that it occasionally gives you a dead draw.


As for the board, i have cut the goblin bombardments.  The oath match isn't too bad post board, and it is winable pre-board.  REB is huge there.

[Shock Wave]

I'd be lying if I said I don't feel a bit insulted by that.

.. and I'd be lying if I said there was a more tactful, concise way of illustrating that the decklist you've provided is not going to work. If you're insulted by someone telling you that your deck is not going to work, and giving you reasons why, then your skin is definitely not thick enough for posting these forums.

Well, I agree with you that there's really not much chance against these types Game1 as the build sits now, but that's why we sideboard.  Or...that's why this board is called the Development board.  Maybe you could quit hating so much and provide some constructive criticism.  Sure the game has changed, but it seems like you're being closed-minded towards this.  I'm not trying to create the new Long or Slaver of the decade, nor am I trying to shake the world here.  It's just a fun Goblin deck that can win some games.

I'm not hating, but there comes a point where "development" becomes complete overhaul. If I was going to make a suggestion, I would suggest checking out the BR Goblin lists in the Vintage Open forum which use effective disruption as a path to victory instead of just trying to deal 20 damage. However, if you're not trying to win and just want to have some fun, I will gladly refrain from further intervention in this thread, since my aim in posting is to help make your deck of choice stronger.

If by disruption you mean counter and discard, then yes, I have no disruption.  If you mean disruption to include spot removal, obviously this deck has plenty.    Goblins are inherently designed to put your opponent on a clock, ignoring whatever they do.  Would you like it better if I mained Null Rods, Waste/Strip, R'n'Ruin, Vandals, Shamans, Viashino Heretics?  What about siding a set of Mazes, possibly something like Threaten for Oath.  Would you advise siding LotV?

Again, I suggest you check out the BR Goblin threads in the Open Forum. Their disruption suites include cards like Earwig Squad, Cabal Therapy, Extirpate, and Leyline of the Void.

I'm not that unfamiliar with what's up, a Workshop deck is a Workshop deck.  They don't tend to deviate very far from their core strategy.  I don't understand your complete dismissal of this deck against anything workshop.  Please remember it is a MonoRed deck and therefore can side in enough hate to make any Brown player more or less want to kill themselves.  As for Flash, pretty much any deck that doesn't run Blue pitch counters and/or Black disruption scoops to Flash.  In my post I was trying to Speculate that Flash won't be as rampant in the future because of all the hate it's seeing now.  In addition to that, everyone hates to play it, hates the players that play it, and I'd imagine Wizards will restrict it (not because of it's dominance, but because of the complaints created by it and because it's not in the spirit of the game to keep it around) And Tyrant Oath, well...I love Tyrant Oath, I'll probably run this at my next tournament.  I would think a full compliment of REB or Pyroblasts could put up a fight.  But like I said, this isn't the end all deck, it's just a Goblin deck.  We can't all come up with equivalents to Tyrant Oath in every post.

I'm not sure what you mean by "it's just a Goblin deck". Do you mean that:

- Your only intention is to fill it with Goblins
- You concede that it is inferior to almost every other strategy
- You're not interested in improving it

... ? I have no personal expectations of you, I just want you to realize that this strategy is not competitive in the current metagame and there is no reason to split hairs about it. Your best bet at "improving" your decklist is to give it a major facelift and make it look like a new-age BR Goblins list.

Seriously, this isn't how I want to spend my time discussing the Development of decks.  If you're going to post at all, don't just put up a simple, "umm...no." post.  Forgive me for trying to be different and not play the same 8 decks that everyone else plays.  I'm not trying to be too much of a D-Bag here, but your response is of the type that is counter-encouraging to people wanting to participate on these boards.

Well, I apologize for seeming "unfun", but that's just the nature of the format right now. If you're just looking to have fun and sling some cards, then sure, burn and goblins is just as viable as any other strategy. However, if you want to give yourself the best opportunity to win, this just isn't it.

[Masta]

Thanks CoyoteUgly, extensive Earwig Squad testing will begin as of today.  I'm going to have to get back to this later this weekend and post on the validity of of keeping some burn compared to replacing it with guys.

ShockWave, seriously...looking at the list provided by CoyoteUgly, Jamison Bryant's list that appears to be pretty competitive is quite similar to what was posted.  The substantial differences being 4 mained LotVs and E.Squads, along with one main Stingscourger and Sharpshooter.  But as the deck's creator commented, he doesn't care for the LotV as they are anti-Goblin in terms of speed and tempo.  So, in all actuality the deck is essentially six cards different.  We can split hairs here and say, "well, Goblin Recruiter and..."  But it's apparent the money cards here that contribute to the disruption that my build needs are the mained Squad and Stingscourger.  I can deal with adding in Matrons as they're a nice cantrip that helps out on me resorting to top decking after turn 2-3, and I haven't been 100% satisfied being caught with a Siege or Goon in hand without the mana to cast it.  They're kind of 'win more' cards anyway.  I like the burn for random removal of anything from Welders to Bobs to Goyfs, or any other random guy.  It's also a nice way to finish off those last 3-6 points of life. 

What I meant by "it's just a Goblin deck" was just that.  I don't see the confusion here, I'm implying that I'm not going to go broke and Tendrils somebody for 20 on Turn1, nor will it draw an insane amount of cards and have an answer to everything like many decks out there now.  Nor will I  be able to conduct a sick Time Walk, Tinker-DS, Yawg. Will, Time Walk turn.  Nor will I go infinite and kill you via my card of choice withing the first couple of turns.  C'mon, it's just a Goblin deck.

That's good to hear you're not hating, but I think your were inaccurate in declaring this undeveloped prototype as completely ineffective and a wash.  Especially considering it's only a handful of cards away from a deck that just took 2nd at a respectable T1 tournament.  A tournament that ran Flash, Oath, Workshop and all.

V/R
Masta

[Shock Wave]

So, in all actuality the deck is essentially six cards different. 

Your list includes:

2 Goblin Goon
4 Raging Goblin

4 Reckless Charge
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Goblin Grenade
2 Fireblast

Are you trying to convince me that this equates to a functional 6 card difference from Jamison's list? If you're not willing to concede that your deck is entirely different from Jamison's list, then I'm afraid nobody is going to be able to help you develop your deck. You're making an implication that is in direct defiance with accepted deckbuilding logic.

That's good to hear you're not hating, but I think your were inaccurate in declaring this undeveloped prototype as completely ineffective and a wash.  Especially considering it's only a handful of cards away from a deck that just took 2nd at a respectable T1 tournament.  A tournament that ran Flash, Oath, Workshop and all.

I stand by my original statement. Refined goblin builds can be very competitive, but your very raw, linear approach is not good enough to even give you an outside chance at Top 8 in a competitive environment.

[coyoteuglly]

Thanks CoyoteUgly, extensive Earwig Squad testing will begin as of today.  I'm going to have to get back to this later this weekend and post on the validity of of keeping some burn compared to replacing it with guys.

ShockWave, seriously...looking at the list provided by CoyoteUgly, Jamison Bryant's list that appears to be pretty competitive is quite similar to what was posted.  The substantial differences being 4 mained LotVs and E.Squads, along with one main Stingscourger and Sharpshooter.  But as the deck's creator commented, he doesn't care for the LotV as they are anti-Goblin in terms of speed and tempo.  So, in all actuality the deck is essentially six cards different.  We can split hairs here and say, "well, Goblin Recruiter and..."  But it's apparent the money cards here that contribute to the disruption that my build needs are the mained Squad and Stingscourger.  I can deal with adding in Matrons as they're a nice cantrip that helps out on me resorting to top decking after turn 2-3, and I haven't been 100% satisfied being caught with a Siege or Goon in hand without the mana to cast it.  They're kind of 'win more' cards anyway.  I like the burn for random removal of anything from Welders to Bobs to Goyfs, or any other random guy.  It's also a nice way to finish off those last 3-6 points of life. 

What I meant by "it's just a Goblin deck" was just that.  I don't see the confusion here, I'm implying that I'm not going to go broke and Tendrils somebody for 20 on Turn1, nor will it draw an insane amount of cards and have an answer to everything like many decks out there now.  Nor will I  be able to conduct a sick Time Walk, Tinker-DS, Yawg. Will, Time Walk turn.  Nor will I go infinite and kill you via my card of choice withing the first couple of turns.  C'mon, it's just a Goblin deck.

That's good to hear you're not hating, but I think your were inaccurate in declaring this undeveloped prototype as completely ineffective and a wash.  Especially considering it's only a handful of cards away from a deck that just took 2nd at a respectable T1 tournament.  A tournament that ran Flash, Oath, Workshop and all.

V/R
Masta

I will save you a little bit of testing and say play 4x Earwig Squad until the format shifts from Flash and Oath.  If it resolves it auto wins against those two decks.  It also auto wins against the 95% of GushBond lists.

While I have argued in favor of Recruiter over Matron for almost a year now, the format right now makes him absolutely atrocious.  Also with the addition of Earwig Squad Matron is absolutely superior in the meta right now.  It allows you to go turn one Lacky, turn two attack put Matron into play finding Earwig Squad, Prowl Earwig squad off a Mox.

In most red decks burn is the most common for of removal.  In the case of Goblins though this is not the case.  WOTC has been kind enough to offer the Goblin Mage strictly better options than even Lightning Bolt.  Goblin Sharpshooter Stingscourger, and Gemplam Incinerator are just better because they are Goblins.  This allows for a lot of things burn can't do.  They can be drawn of Ringleader, are creatures so they attack, make Goblin Piledriver bigger, cycle, can be played for free, burn the opponent out from 10+ life plus much much more.

As to the Leyline of the Voids being main or side.  In my opinion it is a call that should be made 5 minutes before a tournament starts after you have walked to room and figured out what everyone is playing (not hard at a Type One event).  Although before the format switched to Flash and Oath I never ran them in the main.

[chief]

The role that you have described as your justification for your burn spells is filled with one goblin sharpshooter.  It's a goblin answer to goyf, Empty the warrens or getting in those last few points of damage (via sacking fanatics to their head as well or just sacking dudes to prospector).  Also, it isn't that I didn't think leyline was strong...it certainly is.  I  don't feel like they were strong enough or broad enough for what i wanted, but the field you walk into may make them a necessity.

-Jamison

[Masta]

Shockwave:
Sorry buddy, but this is the last time I'll even be addressing you in this thread.  In the back of my mind I knew you would bypass the statement I said in my post about splitting hairs on the difference in cards and focus on the other random Red kill you cards.  I'll still say that the two decks are very similar in that their cores are red Goblins that deal damage.  The 800 pound gorilla standing between the two would be the Leylines and Earwig Squads.  You haven't brought anything constructive to this thread at all, and it's starting to seem like you enjoy quoting everything I say then taking an elitist standpoint and debating it just for the sake of debating it.  And frankly, I have better things to do than engage in a pissing contest.  I'm sure you're a fantastic magic player, but you and me are just on the wrong wavelength today and it's time we part ways for now.

CoyoteUgly:
Yeah, I just played a few games and the Matron/Squad combo is the sickness.  I crippled a Bomberman deck as well as some other Blue-Counter-Everything-then-TinkerDS deck.  It's very nice indeed.  The Matron definitely turns the deck into more of a reactive toolbox instead of a straight speed deck.  It still applies nice pressure though, so it's all good.  I'm having a hard time adding Skirk in there because I just don't like him.  It seems like you have to have him along with something else like the Sharpshooter or some dude in hand for him to be effective.  It seems like the SSGs and Lightning  Bolts are always effective by themselves.  I suppose with a Skirk in play, it would be nice to play the Matron and then sack the Matron to play it's target.  But again, that involves the Skirk needing a friend to be effective. 

Chief:
Congrats on designing a sweet decklist that's fun as sin to play with!  And congrats on your nice tournament showing, giving hope to Mountain players everywhere!  I just played a few games with LotV, and I'm not feeling it.  I'll keep it up until I get a better feel for it, but for now it's on my craplist.  Have you ever ran into a situation in which you needed more removal but your Sharpshooter was already gone?  Did you ever desire some sort of recursion? Perhaps a Volrath's Stronghold?

[chief]

In terms of recursion, it just isn't necessary.  You should be quick and efficient, and if they have a dude you can't deal with then you just swarm.  They can't swing with it, or you will get in for the kill.  If they don't swing, you can build an army to overrun them.  On the skirk prospector, yes...he needs friends.  His friend is the squad.  Turn one skirk, turn two swing, then sack him to prowl the squad when you don't have the mox.  This can be a key play.  SSG doesn't give you the ability to prowl, and that is his fatal flaw (as well as not being a goblin).  Keeping all of your cards goblin cards is very important- so much so that even a great card like bolt doesn't make the cut.  You spoke of recursion, but as long as you keep your core all gobs, ringleader and matron should keep the threats coming just fine.

[GUnit]

In my opinion, you should either take the advice of much more experienced players and go check out the current B/R goblins deck, or make some tweaks, test them against real decks and provide reasons for other players to believe that your deck is competitive. The deck you have posted here is straight-up outclassed even by the Legacy version of goblins.

I really don't think those burn spells are going to do much for you in this format, and raging goblin won't do much for you in any format. Earwig squad is pretty much the only thing keeping goblins competitive, and even then the deck is tier 2.

Red/Green beats, Jamison Bryant's SCG-winning deck, is fairly good, but it is much weaker in the present metagame than it was a few month ago. A few months ago the biggest decks in the format were MUD, which RG beats smashes, and GAT, which it had a reasonable matchup against. Now the biggest decks are tyrant oath and flash, both of which RG beats is an underdog to.

If you really have your heart set on pure aggro with no disruption, standard is very aggressive right now.

[Shock Wave]

Shockwave:
In the back of my mind I knew you would bypass the statement I said in my post about splitting hairs on the difference in cards and focus on the other random Red kill you cards. 

I did not bypass your comment. I just did not address it because the difference between the two decks is not an issue of splitting hairs at all. The decks are totally different. I've illustrated this difference by explaining that you cannot call a 23+ card difference between two decks "splitting hairs."

I'll still say that the two decks are very similar in that their cores are red Goblins that deal damage.

That is about all they have in common. They are not functionally or tactically similiar.

The 800 pound gorilla standing between the two would be the Leylines and Earwig Squads. 

Well, it's good that you see there is an 800lb gorilla that differentiates the two. In Vintage, 2 or 3 cards can change the entire way a deck operates and plays. This deck differs by over 30 from its comparison.
It is impossible to reconcile this difference by lumping all these cards together and stating that they are functionally similiar.

You haven't brought anything constructive to this thread at all, and it's starting to seem like you enjoy quoting everything I say then taking an elitist standpoint and debating it just for the sake of debating it.  And frankly, I have better things to do than engage in a pissing contest.  I'm sure you're a fantastic magic player, but you and me are just on the wrong wavelength today and it's time we part ways for now.

If we recapitulate, I advised earlier to try to shape your list like the new-age BR Goblins. You've take Jamison's advice, added Earwig Squad and other more useful cards, so it appears that you're on your way. My intention was to guide you in the right direction, and while you may have taken exception to the tone my advice, the advice itself was sound and you clearly agree with it. As for the pissing contest, if you're in one, you're in it by yourself, because I haven't attacked you at all.

[coyoteuglly]

If we recapitulate, I advised earlier to try to shape your list like the new-age BR Goblins. You've take Jamison's advice, added Earwig Squad and other more useful cards, so it appears that you're on your way. My intention was to guide you in the right direction, and while you may have taken exception to the tone my advice, the advice itself was sound and you clearly agree with it. As for the pissing contest, if you're in one, you're in it by yourself, because I haven't attacked you at all.

Agreed.  SCG Winner Jamison Braynt and I have both have had success with Goblins (ironically both finishing second), in very arguably the consistently toughest Type One tournament fields in the country.  I am not saying this in any kind of an egotistical way, but taking our advice will only benefit you.  I guarantee both of us have put in hundreds of more test games than you with Goblins.  While Jamison and I do go to the same store, we do are testing pretty much independently of each other.  Occasionally bouncing an idea off each other.  With Goblins the extent of our single conversation about the deck was him stating that he was playing Goblins at ICBM 3, and me predicting he will Top 4 with it.  Independently came up with pretty much the same list.  Even though I played Control Slaver, Goblins is my pet deck for Type One and I test with it regularly.  The only differences being he had Leylines main and I had them in the side, and I had completely missed the Mauler tech.

You said it yourself you have been out of the loop for a long time.  Both of us keep very up to date on the ebbs and flow of this format.  Jamison is one of the best I have seen at this in any format.

Going back to Leyline again.  It is pretty a personal preference on having them main or side.  Personally, I hate Leyline in the main.  Some people swear by it.  But if walking around before a tournament and Flash and Ichorid were popular I wouldn't blink at switching them to the main.  That is literally all there is to say about Leyline in the deck.  There is really nothing to debate or question.

Also over a game of EDH today we both agree that your list is not even close to being a functional 6 card difference.

[Mantis]

Coyoteuglly:

As to the Leyline of the Voids being main or side.  In my opinion it is a call that should be made 5 minutes before a tournament starts after you have walked to room and figured out what everyone is playing (not hard at a Type One event).  Although before the format switched to Flash and Oath I never ran them in the main.

This is very true. At my last T1 event I also played Goblins with Leylines in the maindeck and I T8-ed thanks to the Leylines. It was a very untweaked list however, but the power of the Leylines just made me win a lot of games. There was a lot of Dredge present and having the Leylines maindeck almost guaranteed me winning game 1, as they simply have no answer to it preboard. We must also remember that Leylines are hardly ever dead, they still have a purpose against Bomberman, Stax (Crucible, Welder, + it's a permanent), CS (Welder), Yawgmoth's Will, Tarmogoyf so pretty much every T1 deck uses their graveyard and while most decks can win without it, it's still free disruption. Given my experience with Leyline at the last tourney I would be hesitant to cut it.

A question for the Goblin adepts out there, what do you guys think of Cabal Therapy? Is it worth it? Or does it have the same flaw Bitter Ordeal has, namely pushing you into the control role too much.

I have come to the same conclusions about Aether Vial and Waste/Strip not being included.

[chief]

Cabal therapy just doesn't get there right now.  It's going to cost you a guy to really nail them with it unless you already know your matchuo, but more importantly when do you play a cabal therapy?  I've been testing with various 1 cc black cards in my goblins deck and the experience that i have had is that i never wind up wanting to devote the mana to cast them instead of dropping whatever gob i have in hand at the time.  curving out is important here- you're never going to keep your oppenent in line enough with goblins to keep them from winning by flat out controlling them.  You need to play disruptive elements that are minimally detrimental to your gameplan, as your whole game is to mess with them just enough for the goblin clock to get there before they do.

[Mantis]

Usually the tournaments over here are quite small so you can scout a bit and know what the opponent is playing. My area was Workshop light with most people running blue so FoW is usually a good bet. If you don't fear FoW you can always name Merchant Scroll which most blue decks play as well.
When you play Therapy depends on what deck you are facing. Against Flash you generally want Therapy on turn 1 to prevent the first turn kill, the same goes for Oath. Against other decks with Force of Will you can use the Therapy to ensure you resolve Earwig Squad. That's the reasoning behind Therapy.

I'm still unsure about Therapy, it has won me so many games but it does serious damage on your beatdown plan, focusing more on the Earwig plan instead. On the other hand, Therapy also slows down your opponent a lot thus giving you time to assemble an army.

About the Taurean Maulers: While they do seem strong against GAT, they really look overpriced in terms of mana against any other deck. He costs 3 mana, and then you need the opponent to play a lot of spells without killing you, to make it worthwile. And if he gets bounced, you lose the counters. In theory, the Mauler sounds very subpar to me, however as they have lead you to success and you stated they were golden, I must take your word for it and test them out sometime.

[zabuza]

Mantis:
We know you love Cabal therapy but reasons given by chief are very important. You say "if you are playing against..". but you don´t know what are you playing with until second game, so in first they are unuseful. If you are afraid of FOW, use vexim Shusher (the new uncountereable goblin) that make all your goblins uncountereable too. And against flash you have leyline of the void so flash must remove it (and fanatic) before trying to combo off.

Chief:
Can you explain a bit more the deck, wich cards are better than others, why did you choose them and why this number of them, the pairings, (why maulers are golden, why you use sharpshooter, etc. XD). Lot of thanks for your answer 

[Masta]

Alright, unfortunately I'm going to have to opt out of this thread for a few days.  I have head back to Ohio for a funeral which will undoubtedly throw me off schedule for everything.

Add me to the list of people that want justification for the Mauler slot.  He does seem a bit slow, not to mention he competes with Matron/Earwig for an open three mana.  It seems that with this deck it's a race to get your Earwigs in, so I'm typically casting as many Matrons and Earwigs as possible in the early turns.  I haven't encountered much aggro, Queers, or Goyfs, although I do see it's potential in those match-ups.

CoyoteUgly & Chief, have you guys had limited success with Bitter Ordeal?  It seems a natural side-in against combo, not to mention it quasi ability to not be countered like ES.

Finally, ugh I hate bringing this up.  Let the jury know that Shockwave didn't give any advice in his first post.  After I replied back suggesting he/she post some suggestions for the deck rather than basically saying it sucks he/she merely repeated what was said by CoyoteUgly in an above post.  Pushing the epic fail button and walking away is hardly developmental.   

[kaos42069]

Has anyone thought about using Sensation Gorger? or the new 2 mana goblin from shadowmoor that is uncounterable?

[coyoteuglly]

Cabal therapy just doesn't get there right now.  It's going to cost you a guy to really nail them with it unless you already know your matchuo, but more importantly when do you play a cabal therapy?  I've been testing with various 1 cc black cards in my goblins deck and the experience that i have had is that i never wind up wanting to devote the mana to cast them instead of dropping whatever gob i have in hand at the time.  curving out is important here- you're never going to keep your oppenent in line enough with goblins to keep them from winning by flat out controlling them.  You need to play disruptive elements that are minimally detrimental to your gameplan, as your whole game is to mess with them just enough for the goblin clock to get there before they do.

Completely agreed.  Cabal Therapy falls into the to much disruption category.  Probably less than 10% of Magic players should seriously consider even playing Cabal Therapy.  The our 90% of you are just not good enough to play the card correctly.  In T1 the disparity between playing the card to its maximum effectiveness to merely just "good" is massive.

In addition in Goblins flashing back Cabal Therapy simply costs you to much tempo for a limited amount of disruption in most cases.  Yes, it is capable of winning games.  The majority of the time Thoughtseize will simply just be better than randomly naming Merchant Scroll or Force of Will.

Mantis:
Chief:
Can you explain a bit more the deck, wich cards are better than others, why did you choose them and why this number of them, the pairings, (why maulers are golden, why you use sharpshooter, etc. XD). Lot of thanks for your answer 

Earwig Squad (already been discussed)
Leyline of the Void (already been discussed)

Other than those... here we go:

0 Sol Ring:  Ring just isn't effective in this deck.  Without Sedge-Gang Commander or Kiki-Jiki these is just no reason to have it.  It is pretty rare when you are going to actually want to play this on turn 1 or 2.

Goblin Sharpshooter:  This guy is just amazing.  He single handily beats the majority of Fish decks.  He also allows you to combo out doing a lot of damage by sacrificing Mogg Fanatics and creatures to Skirk Prospector.  It is rare when a creature is out of range.

Stingscourger:  The major reason you have to run this guy is because of Tinker.  A fast turn 1 or 2 and sometimes turn 3 Tinker for DSC  can probably outrace you.  And will definitely out race you if they have access to Time Walk.  Also in addition is removes blockers to clear a path for your Goblin Piledrivers.

Skirk Prospector:  These guys are effectively Lotus Petals two and three that just happen to trigger the Prowl requirement for Earwig Squad.  Help you to accelerate into Warchief.  They also allow you to combo out with Sharpshooter to do massive damage.

Goblin Matron:  The other contender for this slot is Goblin Recruiter.  It varies on which one is better based on the metagame.  My opinion on this is that you want to play Recruiter in metagames that allow you to play AEther Vial.  And Matron if the metagame dictates Earwig Squad.

Mogg Fanatic:  This guy actually does a lot of really useful things.  First off it is a 1 drop so it triggers Squads.  It kills Dark Confidant.  Gets rid of Bridge from Below and kills a Narcomobea.  And can 2 for 1 most of Fishes creatures.  Allows Sharpshooter to untap.  And just generally is a good all around guy.

0 Wasteland/Strip Mine:  The format is just to fast for these to be effective in decks that don't seek to form some kind of a lock.  You need something like Sphere of Resistance in Stax to slow your opponent down enough to make the effective.  The format right now revolves around two, two mana spells that don't need any additional help to win the game, so often any land + mox will win for your opponent.

Has anyone thought about using Sensation Gorger? or the new 2 mana goblin from shadowmoor that is uncounterable?

Honestly, I have not tested this guy.  And I am not going to.  The only way I will test this guy is if Chief tests it out and tells me it is good.  His stats are pretty average  at Grizzly Bear level.  Being uncounterable isn't really that big of a deal.  And his ability requiring a mana is just a hinderence.  Very few times in Magics history has been slowing down your entire game plan by a whole turn effective.  Often times it is just to your opponents benefit.  In a T1 this is even more pronounced.  It goes back to the aggressiveness vs disruption theory.  Making Goblins uncounterable is probably just not worth the cost of slowing down your game plan by a turn.

[Mantis]

Completely agreed.  Cabal Therapy falls into the to much disruption category.  Probably less than 10% of Magic players should seriously consider even playing Cabal Therapy.  The our 90% of you are just not good enough to play the card correctly.  In T1 the disparity between playing the card to its maximum effectiveness to merely just "good" is massive.

In addition in Goblins flashing back Cabal Therapy simply costs you to much tempo for a limited amount of disruption in most cases.  Yes, it is capable of winning games.  The majority of the time Thoughtseize will simply just be better than randomly naming Merchant Scroll or Force of Will..

Well, I think I fall in the category of the 10% that can handle Therapy. I mean this argument doesn't make any sense, you can learn to play the card well. Take it from me I've been playing with Therapy the entire Extended season and now in Vintage, you will get better use out of the card. Sure, you are going to miss sometimes, but oftentimes you can see right through the lines of play your opponents make and hit that Force or Drain and follow it up with a winning Earwig Squad.

Thoughtseize is something to think about, while I really loved Therapy in Extended, in Vintage people play with restricted cards and it's just too much of a gamble to blow your Therapy on that. So, I'm going to try that out when I have the time.

Still the point that Chief made is a very good one. I just feel you have no chance against a competent Vintage if you do anything to disrupt them. Most decks are either much faster or are good at controlling you. Therapy or Thoughtseize can help you push through those important Goblins or slow your opponent down.
The cause of the different viewpoint might be a different metagame with different players. Here in Holland, the players usually just play Oath, GAT and Drain decks, all decks where Therapy shines against. Also, the people here are technically very skilled and most play a very good game of Magic, but their psychological game is not very strong, compared to your average GP player. This reasons all contribute to the power a Therapy can have.

[Hillboy]

If your going to run goblin sligh in vintage you should consider cards that do double duty either beating or disrupting, goblin vandal, tin-street hooligan, goblin tinkerer, goblin welder,(that's team artifact hate and none cost more than 2), you know about stingscourger and earwig squad. one of them could replace raging goblin easily.

[chief]

Coyote has covered a lot of the choices already, but i will touch on the taurean mauler.  You aren't looking for that card to be a dryad- it's not going to be a 10/10 except in rare instances.  However, it WILL commonly be a 5/5, and a 5/5 goblin for 3 is good.  More importantly, a mauler on the board makes your oppenents think twice about playing their spells, since each spell they play effectively costs them life.  I'm down to 2 maulers in my current build, since i did come to the conclusion that three was just putting too many cards in the 3cc slot, and I've been tinkering with replacing that one mauler with a frogtosser banneret.  So far that repalcement has been working just fine.  Sometimes you will randomly get the blowout mauler hand, and that is something to smile about as well- turn 1 on the play land, mana crypt, mauler.  You opponent will generally lead with land mox spell, and then you're in for probably msix on the next turn since mauler is a 4/4 by then and you probably have land drop into either warchief or ringleader, or just swinging into prowling the squad off just the land and the crypt.  The mauler is not a must for the deck to work- you could get away with replacing it with other utility goblins (incinerator, warren weirding, whatever) but those two are staying in my deck at this time pending more testing.

[kaos42069]

IMO 2 sharpshooters is the effective # it kills more creatures... But then again i play against ichorid and platinum angel a lot.

Why no tarfire? its a goblin spell that you can search for or get with ringleader...

Has anyone thought about sideboarding THorn of amethyst instead of the pyrostatic pillar? I mean that spell kills us just as fast as our opponent...with goblins the thorn of amethyst isnt going to hit very many of our spells. while effectivly stopping manaless ichorid from being able to use its disruption or dredge return, and it slows tendrils down enough to be able to stop it from storming out consistantly.

[coyoteuglly]

IMO 2 sharpshooters is the effective # it kills more creatures... But then again i play against ichorid and platinum angel a lot.

Why no tarfire? its a goblin spell that you can search for or get with ringleader...

Has anyone thought about sideboarding THorn of amethyst instead of the pyrostatic pillar? I mean that spell kills us just as fast as our opponent...with goblins the thorn of amethyst isnt going to hit very many of our spells. while effectivly stopping manaless ichorid from being able to use its disruption or dredge return, and it slows tendrils down enough to be able to stop it from storming out consistantly.

Because Tarfire is awful.

1.  It doesn't pump Piledriver
2.  It doesn't trigger Earwig Squad.
3.  Any other Goblin in the deck has a higher potential damage output.
4.  Goblin Incinerator can kill any creature in the format not named DSC, draw you a card, and pumps your Piledrivers and trigger your Earwig Squad.
5.  Sharpshooter kills all of your opponents creatures not named DSC, your opponent, pumps your Piledriver, and triggers your Earwig Squad.
6.  Stingscourger removes any blocker in the format, pumps your Piledriver, and triggers your Earwig Squad.
7.  It doesn't sacrifice for mana to Prospectors.

Throns is terrible because:

1.  It is an answer not a threat.
2.  Pillar is threat and an answer.  It pro actively kills your opponent.  While making it hard for them to set up because you close the window on how long the game will last.  Back to the balance between Disruption vs Aggressiveness again.
3.  Go dig up an article from 1995 on why Orcish Artillery is good, if you are scared of damaging yourself.  Yes Pillar will do damage to you.  But you all the things you are taking damage for directly kills your opponent.  I will gladly take 2 from Pillar to play a Piledriver if I get to attack them with it for 7.
4.  Manaless Ichroid doesn't exist in Chief and my metagame.  Because it is garbage.  Mana Ichorid is where it is at.  You are just stuck waiting for the rest of the world to catch up.
5.  The best Storm combo deck right now plays 2x Doomsday... seems good for the Pillar team.  Dito with Fastbond.  Ever spell they cast means 2 less mana when they start Gushing.

[kaos42069]

How would it not trigger earwing squad? it says whenever a goblin deals dmg to an opponent...its a goblin.

I was agreeing with sharpshooter...i run 2 copies main deck.
Even mana'd ichorid runs bridge from below...so making a comment about which type of ichorid deck was irrelevant.

Almost every spell in this deck is under a 4cc cost so pillar is going to be dmging us every since spell.... it just doesn't seam worth it to me. But if you want to run it in yours and chiefs build, thats cool i was just trying to point out other options.

[eightywpm]

Earwig Squad, straight out of MWS:
"Earwig Squad"                                    (RULE NOT FOUND, Using Simple Info)

nfo: [Edition] = Morningtide (MOR), [Color] = Black, [Rarity] = Rare, [Cost] = 3BB, [Type] = Creature - Goblin Rogue

CARD TEXT: Prowl 2B (You may play this for its prowl cost if you dealt combat damage to a player this turn with a Goblin or Rogue.)  When Earwig Squad comes into play, if its prowl cost was paid, search target opponent’s library for three cards and remove them from the game. Then that player shuffles his or her library.


Tarfire does not deal combat damage to an opponent.  Therefore it will not activate prowl.

[coyoteuglly]

How would it not trigger earwing squad? it says whenever a goblin deals dmg to an opponent...its a goblin.

I was agreeing with sharpshooter...i run 2 copies main deck.
Even mana'd ichorid runs bridge from below...so making a comment about which type of ichorid deck was irrelevant.

Almost every spell in this deck is under a 4cc cost so pillar is going to be dmging us every since spell.... it just doesn't seam worth it to me. But if you want to run it in yours and chiefs build, thats cool i was just trying to point out other options.

For starters.  eightywpm beat me to it on prowl.  Apparently, the hardest skill in Magic really is to read the card.

2.  Wtf are you talking about?  Who said anything about Bridge from Below?  Thorn has no relation to Bridge what-so-ever.  Did you even stop to consider your what you were saying?  Bridge doesn't need mana to work.  It simply sits in your graveyard and does its thing.  The ONLY relevant card in Ichorid that Thorn affects is Dread Return.  Yes, for Manaless Ichorid that 1 mana can be rough.  For the GOOD version of Ichorid 1 mana is no problem.  Which makes Thorn completely irrelevant and you just wasted 2 mana and probably your entire turn doing absolutely nothing.

3.  While you are agreeing Sharpshooter is good.  Two of them is also to many.  With Matron you are effectively running 5.  And there are a number of match ups you don't want to draw him in.

4.  While I appreciate you trying to point out other options, you are simply wrong.  Apparently those 5 reasons weren't enough or I didn't explain it clearly.  So let me try one more time, than if you still want to run Thorn feel free to run a suboptimal sideboard and continue to be stupid.

Yes you will take damage from Pillar.  You might even take a lot of damage from Pillar.  Who cares?  Your life total doesn't really matter.  WHAT!?!  Goblins life total doesn't matter?  How can that possibly be?

1.  Flash does infinite damage.  If they resolve a Flash it doesn't matter how high your life total is... you will die.
2.  Empty the Warrens decks.  They will either make way more guys than you can handle, or enough that you can whittle them away by attacking/blocking.  Such is the advantage of running creatures.  Even if they make 20 guys, they probably took a ton of damage doing it, and will not be in a position to attack you with all of them.  At that point is simply becomes a game of resource management.  Odds are they will no longer be able to cast more than 2-3 spells without dying to Pillar.  And won't be able to effectively attack you because if they commit to many guys to attacking you can simply attack back for the win.
3.  Long variants.  These match ups aren't that great to begin with.  But all of there storm spells cost 3 or less.  So there for as long as you keep your life total higher than there's in theory they have to Tendrils you twice to win.  Otherwise they won't have enough Storm to kill you.
4.  Pillar is a threat, not an answer.  Pillar is a card you combo/control opponent must answer before they can effectively deploy there strategy against you.  There for disrupting them as a bonus by not letting them use there robust draw, and tutor engines to maximum effect. 

Yes it affect hurts you also, but it hurts your opponent more.  All of the cards you play pro actively kill your opponent.  Which is massive synergy with dooders that turn sideways.  For every two damage you take by casting a Goblin, that Goblin will break you even, and even get you ahead of the Pillar by attacking.

All the while you are putting them under pressure to act NOW.  How is this a good thing for an aggro deck?  Seems counterintuitive.  But its not.  By forcing your opponent to act NOW, even if they kill you, you are forcing them to get lucky.  Not just simply allowing them to sit around and deploy there strategy to maximum effectiveness.

Against Thorn on the other hand, it is not putting them in any such position to force there hand.  You are not even really slowing them down that much.  Because you are using your entire turn one or two to cast a two mana artifact that doesn't pro actively attack your opponents life total.  While this is fine in a Stax deck, because there goal is to entirely lock you out of playing spells.  Your goal is to reduce there life total from 20 to zero as quickly as possible.  Thorn does not help you in this goal, while Pillar actively pursues it with every card your opponent plays.  By using your entire turn to play Thorn and not actively trying to accomplish your goal, you are effectively giving them the one mana to pay for Thorn the first time they play a spell every turn.

Kaos if you would like to play terrible cards in your Goblin deck, feel free.  It is after all your choice after all.  Just don't come complaining to me when you lose they are not Pillars.

Full Warning for violation of Rule 2, Inflammatory Posting (flaming).  In addition, your writing skills leave something to be desired.  Reviewing the site rules may help you to better understand TMD's posting standards, and how calling people stupid falls short of them.  -DA

[kaos42069]

Thanks for pointing out that its combat dmg, i misread the card. I thought it said whenever a goblin deals damage.
The comment about both ichorid decks running bridge was from below was to point out that IMO running 2 sharpshooters is the prime #.
As for thorn of amethyst vs pyrostatic pillar I see your point on them taking just as much dmg if not more than we do.

IN the future you could find a more constructive way to point out things, instead of being completly rude about it. BUT if it makes you feel better to belittle people while trying to show them better card options for a deck. Be my guest.

Thanks for the advice.