The Paint Shop (Painter´s Servant Combo)

[MMD]

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=35664.0

This is my initial decklist using Painter´s Servant in a combo hull:

The Paint Shop V1.0
4   Painter´s Servant
1   Grindstone
4   Force of Will
4   Brainstorm
4   Ponder / Street Wraith
4   Red Elemental Blast
4   Pyroblast
1   Enlightened Tutor
1   Mystical Tutor
1   Vampiric Tutor
1   Demonic Tutor
1   Imperial Seal
1   Yawgmoth´s Will
1   Tinker
1   Ancestral Recall
1   Time Walk
   
4   Simian Spirit Guide
1   Lion´s Eye Diamond
1   Lotus Petal
1   Black Lotus
1   Mox Sapphire
1   Mox Jet
1   Mox Ruby
1   Mox Emerald
1   Mox Pearl
1   Sol Ring
1   Mana Crypt
1   Mana Vault
1   Tolarian Academy
4   Forbidden Orchard
2   City of Brass
4   Gemstone Mine

I would like to explain some card choices:

Multicolloured Mana Base - I plan to have a Oath transformational sideboard (but im not sold on that). Also there is a lot of Oath in my meta. Perhaps I will go back to Duals/Fetchies during testing as this build does not offer the Brainstorm(Ponder)/Fetchland "combo".

4 Simian Spirit Guides - against Flash/Stax and as a mana trick in general

1 Grindstone (only) - worst stand alone card in the deck - as soon as you have the Servant out you can also switch to control mode until you find the next tutor or the stone itself.

Please feel free to comment my current build as I plan to play Servant combo on the next tournament and your suggestions are welcome.

This is a useful Legacy topic about Painter´s Servant:
http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9277&page=4

[ReAnimator]

This is a really cool idea.

At first blush it looks really similar to Bomberman to me, and that got me thinking, what about trinket mage?
Another thought i had was it's possible the black tutors are worse than something like transmute artifact as your combo pieces are cheap artifacts.

Have you thought about Welders or maybe thirst for knowledge? Since you have so many 2 for 1 counters (force, ssg + reb) i would really want some way to keep my hand continually fueled and not have to rely on the slow tutors, (thats what originally got me thinking about trinket)

EDIT:
Here is a thread on SCG talking about this sort of combo from a 9sphere welder aproach. Lots of good ideas.

http://www.starcitygames.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=889120#889120

[StarOrc]

Just an initial impression is that you could probably do without the 5 color mana base, Simian Spirit Guides, and the E Tutor. Something like this for a mana base is what I would suggest.

10 Mox Lotus Petal Crypt Vault Ring
1 Academy
5-6 Fetches
3 Volcanic
2 Underground
2-3 Island
Total of 24 Mana Sources

The other thing I would suggest is adding Merchant Scroll for the last 2 Spirit Guides and the E Tutor. After the Servant is in play Scroll can grab REB/Pyro and Vamp as well as the normal stuff it can get.

Also I would go with Ponder over Street Wraith. With Ponder you get to see more cards and gets you what you need now as opposed to just one random card.

Corey

[Thicketman]

Corey beat me to it. I was going to suggest a similar mana base as well. The deck will run much smoother than the 5 color base.

[credmond]

You will need some kind of bounce in case they get something out that prevents your combo, like null rod, before you can drop a painter. Echoing truth is probably best. Also, you might do well with a backup win condition like tinker collosus, who also does well as free countermeasure versus brainfreeze.

[Troy_Costisick]

You will need some kind of bounce in case they get something out that prevents your combo, like null rod, before you can drop a painter. Echoing truth is probably best. Also, you might do well with a backup win condition like tinker collosus, who also does well as free countermeasure versus brainfreeze.

Platz is good for that too and good vs. Ichorid- which is where this deck might have trouble.  What's the SB like in this deck?

Peace,

-Troy

[credmond]

I think ultimately this combo will find its home in a UR control slaver type shell, since both combo pieces are weldable and tinkerable artifacts. With welders you can then use things like intuition, gifts ungiven, and thirst for knowledge to assemble your combo. Welders can also deal with opposing null rods, pithing needles, duress effects, and countermagic that would otherwise disrupt the combo. They can also give you a good pre and post ichorid plan in the form of tormod's crypts (1 maindeck and 3 sideboard possibly) and are great against shops. Significantly, welders could supplement a back up mana denial strategy that I think a painter deck should be able to fall back on when the combo is not possible or not required to win.

[Vegeta2711]

Right now you have a much worse Flash / Belcher / combo deck than anything else relying on two cards. Part of the problem is you have no reliable way to combo off in a single turn if you need more than 4 mana total, which is really awkward since you don't run Rituals, nor Ancient Tomb or Workshop. Another problem is the amount of cards you have that are just absurdly awkward for a combo shell deck.

4   Red Elemental Blast
4   Pyroblast

These are awful against half the field and yes, I get that they end up better if you can resolve Painter's Servant, but if you land servant you probably would just want to jump right to the 'winning' part. You also need some amount of Chain of Vapor or Echoing Truth to deal with opposing Pithing Needle or Platinum Angel. Finally can't win as easily or as quickly as Flash, but are basically rolling the same draw / search engine as a Flash deck.This seems poor simply because if you get disrupted, you'll have issues assembling a 1-of and 4-of (Though probably 3-of at that point) from 1-3 cards, let alone protect it.

There's definitely some potential here with an all colorless combo, but this initial version is way too awkward.

[Bill Copes]

With the painter out, won't one of the blasts take care of a null rod or a pithing needle?

[NicolaeAlmighty]

Yes. If they're blue in addition, they have a biiiig bullseye for Blasts. I don't think people realize how much this lil guy will impact the board. You realize you can also Force pitching ANYTHING right? Even a land, because it's blue in addition to being colorless (assuming you name blue).

Develop this. It has the potential to be amazing but... Just have to find the right shell.

[ErkBek]

This is a cool combo and all, but I think you're going about it wrong. Your list is too dedicated to the combo, yet doesn't appear very fast.

I think you'd be much better off building this combo into an aggro control or aggro hate deck. Dark Confidant is certainly going to be this deck's best friend since he digs cards for the combo and creates a ridiculous amount of disruption to win through with 8 Rebs.

[Troy_Costisick]

This is a cool combo and all, but I think you're going about it wrong. Your list is too dedicated to the combo, yet doesn't appear very fast.

I think you'd be much better off building this combo into an aggro control or aggro hate deck.

There is much wisdom in this, and I have to agree.  IMHO, this belongs in a 9 Sphere deck shell like MUD or Stax.  Or perhaps in a TMWA shell (but that may be my partiality to that deck type talking heh heh).  I don't see it really working in a Gush deck.  Painter-stone is not a pure combo like Flash, Tendrils, or Oath.  But I have to believe that a creature that affects every card in the game must have some way of beign broken.  It's just going to take some experimenting.  However, I'm sure this card has a future in Vintage.

Peace,

-Troy

[credmond]

I think this card should be mentioned, since it combos with the blasts to hit anything that is in play before the painter's arrives. Having it in the deck as a one of to tutor for seems wise as long as one is playing 8+ blasts

Name:      Distorting Lens
Set & Rarity:    Eighth Edition rare
Printings:     Eighth Edition (Rare) Mercadian Masques (Rare)
Cost:    2 Mana
Card Type:    Artifact
P/T:    
Rules Text (Oracle):    Tap: Target permanent becomes the color of your choice until end of turn.

[MMD]

Thanks for all of your suggestions!

I also feel that this deck needs something to refuel your hand with all of these card disandvantage tutors and Dark Confident is already one of my favorite cards, so i will try to fit him in. The average casting cost of this deck will also be low to support this.

I aggree that Servant/Grindstone is slower than other combo like Flash or Tendrils decks so I will try to put it into a new shell.
But I don´t like the idea to put Painter´s servant into an aggro control/hate deck as both parts of the combo are not very aggressive at all. The only useful aggro shell would agree on is a Trinket mage/Dreadnaught list similar to DeezNaughts or Dark Illusions.

 I will redesign my list from combo to combo-control like the european gifts/intuitive shells using Dark Confident to refuel.

Within this shell Merchant Scroll is also very strong. It´s strong anyway but with Painter in play i´ll be ridiculous strong (thanks Corey)

Using a combo-control shell the 5C (Oath sideboard) mana base becomes awful so I will use the 4C mana base including ponder.

IMHO you don´t need bounce in the main as you have the 8 "blast everything" effects in the main as soon as the painter enters play and I don´t see any threads (except Chalice 2) which need to be bounced before.

A plan B card like Colossus, Trinketnaught (or even a Welder shell)l should also be the way to go. This will also answer the Chalice problem.

I will rework this list removing the combo parts (bad tutors/SSG/LED/5C mana base) and add the 4C land base and a combo-control package (Dark Confident/Merchant Scroll,Plan B card(s)).

Even REB/Pyro are generally strong Vintage(mainboard) it could be better to decrease the total amount to 4-6 to be more flexible against other decks like Workshop/Dredge. You can leave the rest of the blast in the sideboard for control/combo matchups.

I will rework my list accordingly and come back in a couple of hours. Stay tuned...

[Dr_Tongue]

I think this card should be mentioned, since it combos with the blasts to hit anything that is in play before the painter's arrives. Having it in the deck as a one of to tutor for seems wise as long as one is playing 8+ blasts

Name:      Distorting Lens

Hey Corey! GJ on the T4 @ Eudo

I had an old Lens.dec (UR) that I ran the U/R blasts "Main" with, as a fun, but not Tier 1 deck. Painters is Distorting Lens on crack, and DLens doesn't combo like the Grindstone does and can't help you more than once per turn. Seems it would be less functional than the small body + neat effects (pitching Island to FoW).

I ran alot of permanent hate with the 5x Strip effects and Shaman as well for Mox munching while saving blasts for better targets. I had to include a Superman too as my old skool kill.

Would the 5x Strip effects have a place in the mana base as well?

[MMD]

I have tried to put over a control hull and came up with three different deck ideas based on three known deck strategies.
I would appreciate to get your opinion about my lists:

ENSLAVED SERVANT
1   Tolarian Academy
3   Polluted Delta
3   Flooded Strand
3   Underground Sea
4   Volcanic Island
1   Island
1   Mox Pearl
1   Mox Jet
1   Mox Emerald
1   Mox Ruby
1   Mox Sapphire
1   Black Lotus
1   Mana Crypt
1   Sol Ring
1   Lotus Petal
   
1   Darksteel Colossus
3   Goblin Welder
4   Painter´s Servant
1   Ancestral Recall
4   Brainstorm
1   Demonic Tutor
4   Force of Will
1   Grindstone
1   Mindslaver
1   Mystical Tutor
2   Pyroblast (or X)
2   Red Elemental Blast (or X)
4   Thirst for Knowledge (or X)
3   Thoughtseize (or X)
1   Time Walk
1   Tinker
1   Vampiric Tutor
1   Yawgmoth's Will
X   Duress/Thoughtseize/Merchant Scroll/REB/Pyroblast/Mana Drain/Gifts Ungiven

NAUGHTY SERVANT   
3   Underground Sea
3   Volcanic Island
1   Island
3   Polluted Delta
2   Flooded Strand
3   Wasteland
1   Strip Mine
1   Mox Pearl
1   Mox Jet
1   Mox Emerald
1   Mox Ruby
1   Mox Sapphire
1   Black Lotus
1   Sol Ring
   
4   Dark Confidants
4   Painter´s Servant
3   Trinket Mage (or X)
1   Phyrexian Dreadnaught
1   Sensei, Divining Top
1   Grindstone
1   Ancestral Recall
4   Brainstorm
4   Force of Will
4   Stifle
1   Time Walk
1   Demonic Tutor
1   Vampiric Tutor
3   Red Elemental Blast (or X)
3   Pyroblast (or X)
1   Yawgmoth´s Will
X   Duress/Thoughtseize/Merchant Scroll/REB/Pyroblast/Dreadnaught/Illusionary Mask/Daze/Trickbind/Mystical Tutor/Tinker/Trinket Mage

GIFTED SERVANT   
1   Tolarian Academy
3   Polluted Delta
3   Flooded Strand
3   Underground Sea
3   Volcanic Island
2   Island
1   Mox Pearl
1   Mox Jet
1   Mox Emerald
1   Mox Ruby
1   Mox Sapphire
1   Black Lotus
1   Mana Crypt
1   Sol Ring
1   Lotus Petal
   
4   Dark Confidant
4   Painter´s Servant
1   Darksteel Colossus
1   Vampiric Tutor
1   Mystical Tutor
1   Time Walk
1   Demonic Tutor
1   Ancestral Recall
4   Brainstorm
1   Gifts Ungiven
4   Force of Will
1   Grindstone
1   Tinker
1   Recoup
3   Merchant Scroll (or X)
1   Yawgmoth´s Will
2   Red Elemental Blast (or X)
2   Pyroblast (or X)
2   Mana Drain (or X)
X   Duress/Thoughtseize/Merchant Scroll/Mana Drain/REB/Pyroblast

The Slaver version offers the best draw engine and the best win option beside the combo itself. Also you have a good use for your Servant no. 2 to 4 with TFK. But Slaver is not known to be very fast.
The mana denial strategy of the Naught deck looks interesting as well, as you can support this strategy with your blasts when the Painter is in play and you don´t have access to the Grindstone.
But I think all three strategies are viable and it´ll come down to your meta and your play style.

There are a couple of questions which I would like to address to this forum as I am unsure which is the best way to go:

1. What do you think is best combination of Blasts/Duress/Thoughtseize/Scroll/Drains per deck?

2. Do you think the Colossus is needed in the Slaver/Gifts build? If not - other suggestions?

3. I would like to include Merchant Scrolls into the Slaver list to smooth the mana curve. Suggestions? If you find room it should also include Gifts Ungiven, then.

4. I see that Academy Ruins is strong in here (especially in the Slaver build) but I don´t find room for it. What do you think?

5. As you see there is neither Lotus Petal nor Mana Crypt in the Naught build due to space reasons. Do you thing at least one of these cards belong in here? If so - what would you take out?

6. I have completely disregarded removal/bounce/wishes in my lists due to the Servant/Blasts mini combo. Do you think this can work?

I am looking forward receiving your answers/opinions.

Bjoern

[Tha Gunslinga]

I would definitely run 6-8 MD Blasts; I don't see any decks in my current metagame that don't run fairly heavy blue, and everything that you'll see in a top 8 runs blue pretty much.  Against Stax or something Shoppy you can just drop the Painter and use the Blasts as Vindicates.

[Thicketman]

how about applying the servant to a straight mono  shop deck. could really be nice and consistant.

[Troy_Costisick]

how about applying the servant to a straight mono  shop deck. could really be nice and consistant.

The problem then becomes getting the painter in play consistently so you don't have a bunch of dead draws in your hand.

Peace,

-Troy

[credmond]

I like the enslaved servant list the best.

Some ideas to consider . . . I would ditch the thoughtseize and add at least a single intuition to the list. Intuition + welders is very strong and welders already is a countermeasure to thoughtseize.

I would probably also change the robot from DSC to titan since that augments the back-up plan of mana-denial. Mindslaver also offhand seems extraneous since you already have a win now combo.

[the boogie man]

I was actually going to suggest the same thing with colossus, except I thought that triskelion would be a solid choice as well. A thing about intuition, though: Faerie Macabre really freaks me out, along with leyline and crypt. If you can't get to another win condition reliably fast, they could screw you with free graveyard removal.

[dicemanx]

This is a cool combo and all, but I think you're going about it wrong. Your list is too dedicated to the combo, yet doesn't appear very fast.

I think you'd be much better off building this combo into an aggro control or aggro hate deck. Dark Confidant is certainly going to be this deck's best friend since he digs cards for the combo and creates a ridiculous amount of disruption to win through with 8 Rebs.

I agree with the first statement, although there is another option other than going with hate/control cards. You can combine this two card combo with other two card combos in one MUD archetype, so that you maximize the chances of hitting a game ending combo within the first two turns. Consider:

4x Time Vault
4x Rings of Brighthearth
3x Basalt Monolith
4x Metalworker
4x Staff of Domination
4x Painter
4x Grindstone

To increase the chances of combining the correct two cards you can run tutor effects such as Transmute Artifact; alternately, you can run disruption such as 9 Spheres/4 CotV and wait until you draw into the right combo piece.

[MMD]

I don´t think that a mono brown shell with all kind of two card combo´s will be very solid. IMHO you should always focus on one main winning strategy. I am afraid that putting 2-3 different combo´s into one deck will give you a lot of bad draws. Also your opponent has only to answer a couple of your spells to make you having a bunch of useful cards in play/hand.

To my opinion you should always play the painter together with 4-8 blasts in the main deck and some more in your sidebord. They are awesome with the Servant in play and even without him strong against most of the Tier 1 decks.

But even if you use a MonoR Workshop shell to include the Blasts for discruption/destruction they terribly interact with 9Sphere and CotV.

I will leave the drafting board and put at least the Naught and the Slaver list together and do some testing with it. On paper the Slaver looks more stable and the Naught more focused to me.

I´ll try to find that out, also taking into account my meta which is usually quite balanced:
20% Oath
20% Fish & other hate
20% Aggro Workshop
20% Fast Combo (Flash & Long variants)
20% Misc. (Bomberman,GAT,Goblins,Staxx...)
0% Dredge

In any case I will play Painter´s Servant in the next tournament to try something new.

[the boogie man]

I'm going to go on a couple of tangent's.

I Think that the multiple combo.dec is really interesting. It could be as fast as regular storm combo, but you also can run chalices, spheres, and even wastelands, and you could potentially just softlock the opponent, but instead of waiting to draw karn or trike, you win with an infinite combo. Sure, you get bad draws, but bottled cloister could be added if there is room, and that would protect you from duress. The weakness to bounce could be avoided, because you could dump your hand fast with metalworker, and painter + grindstone is one workshop activation

I Also like how painter + Reb covers one of mono-red stax's biggest weaknesses, which I really think is resolved permanents, and free/cheap spells that can slip out before your defenses are up. The Painter alows you to run 8 vindicates for 1 mana apiece, and reb is awesome against flash, gat, storm, and random control decks, plus anything else running blue. In this version, I wouldn't even run grindstone, because it would be too hard to find, and I definitely don't want more than 1 in my deck at any time. You could just use the painters as win conditions, along with magus of the moon and maybe 3 welders, and you could have 3 sword of fire and ice. What else are your painters doing anyway? That would also protect them from everything, assuming you name blue, since sword gives pro-blue. Does this make it fall off?

I also have been working on putting the slaver and naught list together, mainly to make it just u/r and have a really solid draw engine. I could cut confidant, put in a couple of thirsts, some other win conditions, like a slaver and a titan, and use mana drain and such. I really liked the way it played, being from the northeast and such. There was one big thing I didn't like about it, which was the weakness to graveyard hate, especially faerie macabre, and extirpate, because I cant counter them, so I can't rely on the graveyard as much as I'd like to.

I also didn't like how trinket mage and thirst competed for the three slot, and how stifle was a little out of place. Then if stifle was out, dreadnought would go, and then I wouldn't run trinket mage, really, and Then I'd be right back at the slaver list. I don't like how long it takes the slaver list to find grindstone withought trinket mage. I also like how mask makes painter uncounterable.

[Troy_Costisick]

That would also protect them from everything, assuming you name blue, since sword gives pro-blue. Does this make it fall off?

Yup.  You'd wanna use Jitte instead.

Peace,

-Troy

[dicemanx]

I don´t think that a mono brown shell with all kind of two card combo´s will be very solid. IMHO you should always focus on one main winning strategy. I am afraid that putting 2-3 different combo´s into one deck will give you a lot of bad draws. Also your opponent has only to answer a couple of your spells to make you having a bunch of useful cards in play/hand.

Indeed, you list the downsides, but they must always be held in contrast with the upsides, and specifically the one upside which is very significant - the ability to win games inside of two turns. I'm not sure I'd be prepared to dismiss this approach just yet, although you might end up being absolutely correct.

To my opinion you should always play the painter together with 4-8 blasts in the main deck and some more in your sidebord. They are awesome with the Servant in play and even without him strong against most of the Tier 1 decks.

But even if you use a MonoR Workshop shell to include the Blasts for discruption/destruction they terribly interact with 9Sphere and CotV.

There is no reason why the deck cannot be mono-brown with a red splash to support blasts instead of running Spheres and CotV. In fact, the REBs can very nicely protect the two card combos which allows you to outrace the control/combo decks.

In any case, it should be exciting to see if Painter can be the basis of a competitive archetype in T1.

[silvernail]

*post revoked due to revelation of what everyone is talking about*

I initially missed the shop + grindstone combo, but now I see what is up. I'd run more grindstones however, as well as some method of removing any kind of anti decking card such as Gaea's blessing.

[MMD]

I'd run more grindstones however, as well as some method of removing any kind of anti decking card such as Gaea's blessing.

Running only one Grindstone is just my way of reducing "useless" cards in a deck. I would prefer to run more ways to find it in case I realize that my builds need to have a faster clock.
No deck currently runs Blessing main at the moment, so I don´t have to fight against it in the first game (also there is Stifle in the Naught build). The only card which comes to my mind which could be a problem for the Grindstone kill is Krosan Reclamation which you can fight with mana denial.

There is no reason why the deck cannot be mono-brown with a red splash to support blasts instead of running Spheres and CotV. In fact, the REBs can very nicely protect the two card combos which allows you to outrace the control/combo decks.

I don´t say it doesn´t work but I just started with other approaches right now. As 9sphere/CotV and SoFI is not useful together with Servant & Blasts there must be a very different approach to the Red Workshop idea. I personally don´t like to play a Workshop Deck without 9Sphere/CotV as your matchup against Fast combo decks will get weaker without them. Also if you don´t have the Servant in play you will be destroyed by Null Rod.

I started to test the Naught build:
I like it so far but I am always short on coloured (especially red) mana. I will add one Badland in addition or replacing either Island or Sol Ring. I often use the Blast as Vindicate´s and beat down with the dorks without needing the Grindstone. As I often wished for the blasts during testing the remaining two will definately be in the sideboard.

[Red Irish]

Hi all:

This is untested and even assuming that we can improve it,  I'm not sure it would work or prove better than alternative builds. In any event, it can serve as a basis for discussion:


4 Goblin Welder
4 Painter’s Servant
4 Solemn Simulacrum
3 Triskelion
2 Gorilla Shaman
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Pyroblast
2 Memory Jar
4 Magus of the Moon
2 Grindstone
1 Trinisphere
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
2 Ancient Tomb
7 Mountain
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Mishra's Workshop

Perhaps Isochron Sceptre could be included. My main concern is the lack of lock pieces, perhaps room can be found for Tangle Wire as we could still play the instants prior to tapping at the start of our turn. As I have said, making this work could prove to be more trouble than it's worth.

Cheers

[Marske]

Hi all:

This is untested and even assuming that we can improve it,  I'm not sure it would work or prove better than alternative builds. In any event, it can serve as a basis for discussion:

I Would start by improving this list with removing 1 of the 2 memory jar's you got in your list (it's kinda restricted)

I've been playing around with this idea with the Painter and grindstone. This list is untested (except for some goldfishing) and i'm not really sure about some kind of secondary kill and a sideboard still needs to be made.

I really think the painter is waiting for a deck to be build around it.

The List:

The Combo (kill):
4x Painter´s Servant
2x Grindstone

Draw:
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder

Disruption:
4x Force of Will
4x Red Elemental Blast
4x Pyroblast
4x Duress

Tutor:
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Tinker

Secondary Kill:
1x Yawgmoth´s Will
1x Darksteel Colossus

Power:
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Time Walk
1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Ruby

Manafixing:
4x Simian Spirit Guide
1x Lotus Petal
1x Sol Ring
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mana Vault

Manabase:
1x Tolarian Academy
3x Polluted Delta
2x Flooded Strand
2x Volcanic island
2x Underground sea

It's a little different than the original list just because I like having things like duress instead of more tutors and a LED. I don't really know what kind of deck needs to be build around the painter and all the deck idea's noted in this thread are viable imo.