[Discussion] Synergies with Painter's Servant

[Troy_Costisick]

Heya,

There's some good discussions going on about the new card in Shadowmoor "Painter's Servant."  Here, there's one here called Paint Shop (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=35698.0) and over at SCG there's one called Painted Spheres (http://www.starcitygames.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=309309).  But there are some more synergies out there than just the Red Blast/Grindstone combo people are focussing on right now.  I'm still in the brainstorming phase of this card, and if anyone wants to join in on that endeavor, it would be great!

I was thinking perhaps around a green based strategy that included these cards:

Compost
Quirion Dryad
Reap

If Painter's Servant was set to Black when it came into play, Compost would net you a card every time they cast a spell, used a fetch land, or pitched a counter.  Vs. Ichorid, you'd get to draw as many cards as you like.  W/ Quirion Dryad those cards turn into +1/+1 counters in a hury since every spell you play will be black in addtion to its regular color.  Reap would almost become a green version of Yawgmoth's Will since every land, artifact, and creature your opponent has in play will let you cycle one card back to your hand.  And, it's and instant!  So you can play it on your opponent's turn in response to something and not have to discard until the end of your next turn.  That's some serious card advantage.

I'm searching for some other ideas for this card.  Anyone have any?

Peace,

-Troy

[Purple Hat]

this is an interesting direction to go with this but how do you keep people from just killing you for fun?  you're playing an aweful lot of green cards that don't do anything until you have a servant on the table.

if you go U/G you allow yourself to run a control shell but at that point why aren't you playing oath?  there's other options but I think this strategy may be more suited to legacy.

[Troy_Costisick]

this is an interesting direction to go with this but how do you keep people from just killing you for fun?  you're playing an aweful lot of green cards that don't do anything until you have a servant on the table.

if you go U/G you allow yourself to run a control shell but at that point why aren't you playing oath?  there's other options but I think this strategy may be more suited to legacy.

It's not that I'm looking to build upon any one particular strategy in this thread, but instead to discover what potential strategies might be out there.  Anyone else who's been experimenting with this card is invited to share what they've found here without any hesitation or need to show how it can beat the top decks in Vintage.  The card isn't even technically on the market yet, so expecting a top tier archetype right now is a little unrealistic.  Instead, this is a research and data gathering thread.  We've got ideas on three green cards + the servant here, 12 red instants + the servant over on SCG and the servant + grindstone in the other forum on ManaDrain.  That's three.  I'm looking for as many different synergies as possible, then after looking at all of them, I plan to develop a strategy from that data. 

So this isn't a thread about how X, Y, and Z card can beat Oath, it's a thread about how X, Y, and Z card work well together in the potential Vintage card pool with Painter's Srevant.  That's all

Peace,

-Troy

[pchoo]

Assuming you play the servant naming blue (because red-blasts are usable against most decks even without resolving painter):

Merchant Scroll
Force of Will
Misdirection
Red Elemental Blast
Pyroblast
Quirion Dryad

Kraken's Eye
Active Volcano
Sapphire Medallion
Magnetic Mountain
Snake Pit
Spellbane Centaur
Snapback
Sunscape Familiar

Sirocco
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV
Burnout
Drowner Initiate

Nature's Wrath
Commandeer
Circu, Dimir Lobotomist

[zeus-online]

Persecute works well with painter's servant, but i really doubt that painter's servant is all that good. Sure it combo's with alot of cards, it's just rarely enough in T1. And really, the only synergy i've seen that seems somewhat decent is grindstone. That's still a 6 mana 2 card combo win...Not really sure if this is better then dragon, belcher, tendrils and flash.

/Zeus

[wiley]

If I recall correctly flame vault was also a 2 card, six mana combo that saw play.  Also with this if you have welder and stone in play with painter in your grave you still get the combo.  Activate stone, IR weld out stone for painter, win.  I don't think there are any combos strictly better than flash, but with the proper deck design I think this could be better than tendrils, belcher and dragon.  Say in a control slaver build or 9 sphere build.

[zeus-online]

I thought about mentioning flameVault, but really that combo wasn't played all that much, and with 4 gifts it's pretty easy to set up.
I'm just not convinced that at this time, in this metagame, that Servant/Stone is viable.
I can see it work in a workshop deck due to sphere's slowing everything to a crawl. Using this as anything but a straight combo card seems bad to me, why would want to blast everything when you could just grindstone the opponent away? or use any of the other mentioned cards.
It's certainly not going to be FASTER then the other combo's, so there will have to be some other trick to it.

/Zeus

[AngryPheldagrif]

If I recall correctly flame vault was also a 2 card, six mana combo that saw play.  Also with this if you have welder and stone in play with painter in your grave you still get the combo.  Activate stone, IR weld out stone for painter, win.  I don't think there are any combos strictly better than flash, but with the proper deck design I think this could be better than tendrils, belcher and dragon.  Say in a control slaver build or 9 sphere build.

The problem I see in the comparison is that FlameVault's power as a combo was entirely incidental. The strength was that it was in Gifts. Even considering such, by the time of restriction Gifts had moved on to more efficent single card win conditions in Tendrils, ETW, and Tinker. We had a lot of discussion about the future of the win conditions on the hypothetical possibility FlameVault would be de-errata'd back into usefulness, but even then didn't really see it as much of a force in pre-restriction Gifts.

I see Servant/Stone as a good combo at a bad time. As a win condition it is clunkier than the storm cards, and as a combo kill it is less streamlined than Flash.

[wiley]

There is no combo as streamlined as flash, and I hope there is never another one.  As far as being a wincon, this does not need to be the only one in the deck.  Servant can provide minor synergies even without grindstone, such as helping out FoW, and grindstone can randomly mill wincons or simply be welded out/discarded to TfK.

Control Slaver has survived (somewhat) the restriction of gifts, as has storm combo.  Just like with those decks you don't run a full 4 of the kill cards, the most I would ever put into a deck is 1 Grindstone and 2 Painter's Servants.  That seems to be a relatively compact, permanent based, graveyard independant kill condition with no outs that anyone would ever run.

As far as this coming at a bad time in vintage I couldn't agree more, there is an obvious "best coice" for combo decks, pushing the requirements for any other combo decks to be competitive sky high.  That is why I would say put this into a control or prison shell with other wincons.

One way or the other the entrace bar for decks into competitive vintage right now is at an all time high, and making a deck based solely around this combo is a mistake.  As for other synergies with the servant, who really needs any?  It is a beater/chumper, aids FoW and merchant scroll and can create an instant win condition when combined with grindstone.  Using 8-12 red blast effects only weakens the deck, as does playing green for things like compost.  Grindstone should be the only card that cares whether or not servant is in play, otherwise it is a janky deck.

[Tobi]

Mana Maze is a card that does nasty things with Painter in play. And it is not too shabby even without Painter.

[The Atog Lord]

In Vintage, as in so many facets of life, there are tradeoffs. In particular, let us here consider the two-card game-ending combos capable of seeing Vintage play.

Stifle+Dreadnaught
This combo requires no outside cards being added to the deck. Stifle is quite good on its own merits, outside of the combo. However, the combo requires that its caster get two more turns before the game is over.

Flash+Hulk
This combo wins right away. However, it also requires that about one quarter of its caster's deck be dedicated to the combo, full of cards dead in any situation other than actually resolving that combo.

Oath+Orhcard
This combo wins the game once a single turn has passed, more than Flash but fewer than Dreadnaught. It requires some dead cards be added to the deck, fewer than Flash but more than Dreadnaught. Orchard, outside of the combo, is more useful than Hulk but less good in general than Stifle.

Now, if we were to plot these three combos on a plane, we would observe that the celerity of the combo's winning the game is directly related to the number of dead cards which it demands be added to the deck.

Where am I going with all this? The Painter combo is interesting to me because it offers deckbuilders a new and unique set of tradeoffs. It combines an instant kill with a requirement of no cards beyond the two combo pieces themselves. Rather, it requires that six mana be spent, rather than two as each of the above combos. However, unlike the above combos, none of those six mana need be colored.

The question of whether the Painter combo will see play becomes the question of whether there will exist a deck capable of taking advantage of the unique strengths offered by the combo. This will not be a pure combo deck. Such a deck, aiming for a quick win, is quite willing to take on the added dead cards of the Flash combo in exchange for its low mana requirement. On the other hand, Drain decks often want a way to end games quickly and are excellent at generating colorless mana. That, I think, would be a more worthwhile direction for Painter than any sort of fast combo deck.

[TopSecret]

The reason Flame-Vault was good was because it only took two slots,
it was very mana efficient (relative to format speed),
and it won the game immediately through almost all kinds of hate-oriented disruption.

Also, the combo was not hard to stuff into the dominant combo-control shell of the time.

If the Painter's Servant combo can fill the above roles,
then I think that it could see play in a combo-control shell.

The only real complaints I have about comparing Servant-Grindstone
with Flame-Vault is that the former is much easier to disrupt with hate.
The Servant combo gets hit by most everything relevant that Flame-Vault did,
but it also gets hit by creature kill, Gaea's Blessing...etc.

I'd love to see Grindstone activated against Ichorid, though. (lol)

[Sextiger]

Once Painter hits play, I would assume hes pretty safe since your gonna be running blasts and you will be able to counter any spell or permanent that would hit him.  What is interesting about this two card combo is that once just Painter hits play, you can gain a huge advantage with all of the synergistic cards like REB. 

[Stormanimagus]

Once Painter hits play, I would assume hes pretty safe since your gonna be running blasts and you will be able to counter any spell or permanent that would hit him.  What is interesting about this two card combo is that once just Painter hits play, you can gain a huge advantage with all of the synergistic cards like REB. 

Yeah, I think people are forgetting that REB is good against many decks in the format right now WITHOUT painter in play. It just so happens that WITH him in play your REBs will never be a dead draw. That's all that people are trying to say when supporting REB I think.

@Atog Lord- Totally what I was going to say regarding Drain Shells. This combo practically screams "Mana Drains would help me a lot!" It'd be nice to see a good drain deck return to the scene. I think Stifles and Wastelands would also have to be invovled. Those are at a premium right now with all the Oath, Ichorid and Flash running around.

[Hillboy]

Could it be used with doomsday? cast doomsday turn two with a land and a ritual in hand, set up ancestral recall, black lotus, Painter's servant, grindstone. play the land tap for blue cast ancestral, cast black lotus break the lotus for black, cast dark ritual, tap a land for another mana play servant, play and activate grindstone. this setup isn't as good as others but maybe it could be made better.

[salthecarp]

Could Painter's Servant make Dream Halls a viable card? My guess is that it's too hard to overcome the disadvantage of paying 3UU to let your opponent cast all of his spells essentially for free. Then again,if you can circumvent one of the most basic rules of the game, there has to be some way to take better advantage of it than your opponent.

[GUnit]

Casting flash is better than casting dream halls. I think that's how a lot of arguments are going to end until one of merchant scroll or flash gets restricted... or everyone but the carp brothers quits vintage.

[Troy_Costisick]

Could it be used with doomsday? cast doomsday turn two with a land and a ritual in hand, set up ancestral recall, black lotus, Painter's servant, grindstone. play the land tap for blue cast ancestral, cast black lotus break the lotus for black, cast dark ritual, tap a land for another mana play servant, play and activate grindstone. this setup isn't as good as others but maybe it could be made better.

You could use Lion's Eye Diamond too just to get the mana to activate the Stone.  I don't know if that's any easier or better, but it is another way.  Another option is Channel.  It just depends on how much life you have after Doomsday.

Could Painter's Servant make Dream Halls a viable card? My guess is that it's too hard to overcome the disadvantage of paying 3UU to let your opponent cast all of his spells essentially for free. Then again,if you can circumvent one of the most basic rules of the game, there has to be some way to take better advantage of it than your opponent.

I think we'd need to see something like a Tinker for enchantments (aside from Rector) printed before such a deck could happen.  Five mana is an awful lot of mana in today's environment, and there's really not too many tricks our there to get an enchantment in play quickly and cheaply.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

doomsday is already capable of making a winning pile requiring zero out side mana off b lotus and lotus petal alone. Channel and led are unneeded dead cards. As far as including painter combo in dday, its definitely less optimal than a 0-2 mana 10 storm ToA kill. If i were to go about it, I would run painter combo in a mountains win again style deck with bobs , 6-8 blast, 7 duress, and a heavy aggro element.

[Implacable]

Y'know, seems to me that Painter's Servant + Grindstone doesn't really need synergy to make it effective.  It costs six mana to kill (a mana cost which can be spaced out over two turns).  The fact that it doesn't actually take up more than two slots if you don't want it to makes it fit easily into just about any deck, and a classic Drain-based control/combo deck seems like the perfect vehicle.  Perhaps a FlameVault-style list would work.

[Troy_Costisick]

Heya,

These three quotes:

As far as this coming at a bad time in vintage I couldn't agree more, there is an obvious "best choice" for combo decks, pushing the requirements for any other combo decks to be competitive sky high.  That is why I would say put this into a control or prison shell with other wincons.

Where am I going with all this? The Painter combo is interesting to me because it offers deckbuilders a new and unique set of tradeoffs. It combines an instant kill with a requirement of no cards beyond the two combo pieces themselves. Rather, it requires that six mana be spent, rather than two as each of the above combos. However, unlike the above combos, none of those six mana need be colored.

The question of whether the Painter combo will see play becomes the question of whether there will exist a deck capable of taking advantage of the unique strengths offered by the combo. This will not be a pure combo deck. Such a deck, aiming for a quick win, is quite willing to take on the added dead cards of the Flash combo in exchange for its low mana requirement. On the other hand, Drain decks often want a way to end games quickly and are excellent at generating colorless mana. That, I think, would be a more worthwhile direction for Painter than any sort of fast combo deck

The reason Flame-Vault was good was because it only took two slots,
it was very mana efficient (relative to format speed),
and it won the game immediately through almost all kinds of hate-oriented disruption.

Also, the combo was not hard to stuff into the dominant combo-control shell of the time.

If the Painter's Servant combo can fill the above roles,
then I think that it could see play in a combo-control shell.

Are really the best way to look at Painter's Servant right now.  Flash is such an efficient combo right now, that no other combo can really compete.  Painter-Stone is not a combo for a combo deck; it's a finishing win condition for a control deck.  And it's an easy one, just costing 6 colorless mana.  The thing is, in the current environment, it's hard to innovate new deck archetypes and new combos since you have to dedicate so much space to disrupting these super non-interactive decks like Flash, Oath, and Ichorid.  Painter's Servant offers some answers vs. these, but I'm not sure if offers enough to really emerge as a top tier contender yet.  I think testing and players brave enough to play it at a tournament will be the only way to tell.

Peace,

-Troy

[Carthain]

The Painter's Servant can also be used for minor disruption.  Take for example what happens if you name "Red":

Merchant Scroll can't find anything.
Force of Will + Misdirection now cost 3UU (no blue cards in hand to discard to it)
Sword of Fire & Ice won't stay equipped (itself is red, so when it grants the creature Pro: Red, it will just fall back off.)
Summoner's Pact can find --- mogg fanatic?

[waywreth]

The Painter's Servant can also be used for minor disruption.  Take for example what happens if you name "Red":
Merchant Scroll can't find anything.
Force of Will + Misdirection now cost 3UU (no blue cards in hand to discard to it)
Sword of Fire & Ice won't stay equipped (itself is red, so when it grants the creature Pro: Red, it will just fall back off.)
Summoner's Pact can find --- mogg fanatic?

Actually you're only partially right.  Painter's Servant causes the spells to be in addition to their original color.  "All cards that aren't in play, spells, and permanents are the chosen color in addition to their other colors."  So you can actually still pitch blue cards to Force of Will/misdirection, and find cards as you always would with Merchant Scroll.  However, if you name red or blue Sword of Fire & Ice will fall off/cannot be equipped.

[Mr. Nightmare]

Anarchy.

[Carthain]

Actually you're only partially right.  Painter's Servant causes the spells to be in addition to their original color. 

Huh.  That'll teach me to look at cards a bit closer.

Alright, just ignore a large portion of my previous post then ^_^