[Premium Article] So Many Insane Plays - Winning in Vinage on a Budget

[WilD]

hvndr3d y34r h3x: I'm happy to see you pay it forward man. I'm not saying it never happens - there is a guy here who loans 2 decks out to try to get new players, and nother guy who purposely brings two decks where ever he goes to introduce vintage to new players.  But this kind of practice is seldom. I also agree with your embarassment comment.

Sorry to hijack the thread so to speak, but Vintage is a big thing in Magic for me, and it really annoys me when people dismiss it without giving it a try and the current players don't help as much as they should. So again, thanks Steve (like for the 3rd time)

Kenny - I'm honestly surprised you say that about our meta (in that you weren't welcome). Perhaps it's changed over time, but the only reason I started playing T1 is because the community was insanely welcoming. I arrived out of the blue with a teeeerrible sui black deck for my first ever T1 tournament with little to no clue about what was going on, and because the meta at the time was 4cc I came 4th which was awesome. Directly after the tournament, I chatted with the other players and one guy (did you ever meet Giles) bought me basically all the staples for UW fish (eg. all the commons) + 2 meddling mage purely with the store credit he and I had won that day. I went out and picked up a playset of FoW's for $50 and never looked back. You say that you felt like the T1 scene had a country club feel, but I don't remember seeing you around much earlier on when we had plenty of T1 happening on thursday nights - maybe it's just that we didn't see you around? Hell man, you're a top-notch guy and a good mate, I'm not trying to blame it on your attitude, but I also don't think that it's all our fault. I mean, there's at least 3 players including me that can now lend out basically any amount of duals to people who ask, but no-one bothers

[playkenny]

Leso: PMed you @ paradise to not derail

EDIT: I will say that I'm not blaming anyone, nor the community (read my posts on vintage on paradise) but will point out that without James, I don't think I would be a "staple" vintage player. I can honestly tell you comparing 2003 to now, there has been a significant change in how people talk to me personally and do think the two are correlated. My experence has no where been as smooth as yours. I just wished everyone would have the same support as you got. Perhapse its just my dumb luck.

[OwenTheEnchanter]

Nice article!

 - Owen

[coyoteuglly]

The issue with that is, from what I've found, the type one scene is just as unfriendly, unaccepting, and just generally as unpleasant as a PTQ. 

This saddens me.  One of the best things about Vintage, I have found, is its tournament scene is friendly and pleasant.  I hope your next type 1 events are more pleasant.

Actually, you are pretty wrong.  Or mabye I am just using a diffrent definition of friendly and pleasant.  It is nothing against you or anyone personally.  But diffrent cliques in Magic pretty much stick to themselves.  And you Phil are definitly part of the "In" crowd of T1 players.

The Type One scene is on the whole, no less friendly or unfriendly than any other Magic tournamet.  And on the whole, with a few exceptions everyone is polite and personable when they are there, but there is no real attempts to reach out.  I would be willing to bet you when I walk into ICBM 4 I pretty much know who will be hanging out with who, and there really isn't a lot of interaction between those diffrent groups.  And I am not just talking about ICBM guys hanging out with ICBM guys and GWS hanging out with GWS.  There are even noticable splits in between those groups.  And while I am on neither team, I am on at least sociable terms, if not friendly terms, with almost everyone in the local T1 community.  But, I pretty much hang out with the same people at every event.



Additonally, I do know multiple people that do think the local T1 community is filled with complete asses.  And refuse to play T1 because of it.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

...what keeps new players from coming to an event is a fear of accidentally breaking the rules and being embarrassed, I've had a lot of friend duck out on there first t1 event the morning of for this reason.

I cannot imagine an experienced, PTQ-level player having this problem. I mean, if this Vintage event is the first "real" tournament ("real" being defined here as any tourney with a significant prize) then I can understand that. But once a player has slogged through 8 rounds of swiss at a few PTQ's then 5 rounds of Vintage should be no big deal. Sure, some of the card interactions are unique to t1, but having a cursory understanding of the rules clears up 95% of that. For the other 5%, that's why they hire judges.

you specifically mention experienced players, this doesn't really apply to experienced players because its introducing some one to a format. i.e. there 1st event ever...

[tomjoad]

...what keeps new players from coming to an event is a fear of accidentally breaking the rules and being embarrassed, I've had a lot of friend duck out on there first t1 event the morning of for this reason.

I cannot imagine an experienced, PTQ-level player having this problem. I mean, if this Vintage event is the first "real" tournament ("real" being defined here as any tourney with a significant prize) then I can understand that. But once a player has slogged through 8 rounds of swiss at a few PTQ's then 5 rounds of Vintage should be no big deal. Sure, some of the card interactions are unique to t1, but having a cursory understanding of the rules clears up 95% of that. For the other 5%, that's why they hire judges.

you specifically mention experienced players, this doesn't really apply to experienced players because its introducing some one to a format. i.e. there 1st event ever...

I suppose I should have clarified. By "experienced, PTQ-level player" I was referring to somebody who is an experienced Magic player, who has played in large events on multiple occasions. I think that these are the players that are most likely to make a stab at t1. Sure, they aren't experienced in this format, but Magic is Magic. The operations of a tournament are the same regardless of the format (excluding Limited of course, which has several differences at the start, but are the same after the draft/sealed deck swap/building periods are over).

[Moxlotus]

The issue with that is, from what I've found, the type one scene is just as unfriendly, unaccepting, and just generally as unpleasant as a PTQ. 

This saddens me.  One of the best things about Vintage, I have found, is its tournament scene is friendly and pleasant.  I hope your next type 1 events are more pleasant.

Actually, you are pretty wrong.  Or mabye I am just using a diffrent definition of friendly and pleasant.  It is nothing against you or anyone personally.  But diffrent cliques in Magic pretty much stick to themselves.  And you Phil are definitly part of the "In" crowd of T1 players.

Thanks for telling me my opinion is wrong.  I am very thankful of you to point out my silly mistake of believing what I have experienced.  I am clearly incorrect, which you have proven with your rock solid counter argument specifically disproving my beliefs and experiences.  And apparently I was always part of the 'in' crowd.  Even when I first started playing Type 1. 
/sarcasm

But, I pretty much hang out with the same people at every event.

So you're being critical of ICBMers or GWSers doing it, but then you admit to hanging out with the same people at each event.  Interesting.  The fact that most people tend to hang out with the same people isn't a type 1 thing--it is a human thing.  If given the choice, most people would rather talk and have a conversation with someone they know than with someone they don't.  I'll probably end up talking to Fisher and Endress more than I will other teammates like Rhyno and Soly simply because I have known and have been friends with Fisher and Endress longer.

Additonally, I do know multiple people that do think the local T1 community is filled with complete asses.  And refuse to play T1 because of it.

There are always people who will think that.  There are also usually some asses.  The latter isn't unique to type 1--it's unique to practically every conceivable social situation that humans hae ever came up with.  Then you have to realize that people can change, especially with age.  And finally, that first impressions can be wrong.  I remember when I first started I thought Ben Carp was a complete ass--and today I would never think such a thing since he is one of the nicest guys I have ever met.

but there is no real attempts to reach out

I can only speak for myself and also talk about what I have observed.  If my opponent played a sportsmanlike match I'll generally inquire about their deck as a conversation starter.  Or I rewind back to a critical play and inquire about why he chose his action--or ask his opinion on my action.  Endress tends to do the latter a lot.

Anyways, I believe this was a good article aimed at those who play other formats and might have an interest.  From the forums, it appears that a number of people don't play Vintage, but still read Steve's articles since they contain tons of facts and are well written. 

I'm moxlotus and I approve this article
/Flag waving in background

[RThomas]

I recall that when I played last about 18 months ago, I enjoyed playing in most events that I went to.  In hindsight, I have probably been one of the least sporting opponents at most tournaments, but I haven't had a problem getting along with any of my opponents head-to-head.  Perhaps some people have attached a negative stigma to Type One players since I stopped playing, but I cannot see how this would happen without someone's direct effort.  Nearly all of the players at events I have attended have been cordial and socially approchable. 

I don't have anything extra to add to the primary discussion other than I never found it difficult to enter the Type One arena on a budget.  I believe that the issue of "type one is cheaper than standard" has been discussed in the past and thus I have nothing new to bring that has not already been said.

[Liam-K]

to the people on page one

one day this article will be free

[Smmenen]

I'm glad that this article sparked alot of discussion, even when those discussing some of its issues haven't read the article.

On the topic of making Vintage tournaments more player friendly - I think my view is that the format has to sell itself.   We can all get along, have a great time, and have great judges, tournament organizers, and great community, but ultimately this has to be a game that people want to play.   They have to "catch" the Vintage bug.   

I hope -- no, I think -- that this is the case.    For people who love Magic, Vintage is pretty much a must-play format simply because its so completely fascinating.   

It would be like going to an amusement park, and riding all of the rides but the tallest and fastest roller coaster.

Sure, it might look terrifying, but it's the coolest and the best.   

[coyoteuglly]

The issue with that is, from what I've found, the type one scene is just as unfriendly, unaccepting, and just generally as unpleasant as a PTQ. 

This saddens me.  One of the best things about Vintage, I have found, is its tournament scene is friendly and pleasant.  I hope your next type 1 events are more pleasant.

Actually, you are pretty wrong.  Or mabye I am just using a diffrent definition of friendly and pleasant.  It is nothing against you or anyone personally.  But diffrent cliques in Magic pretty much stick to themselves.  And you Phil are definitly part of the "In" crowd of T1 players.

Thanks for telling me my opinion is wrong.  I am very thankful of you to point out my silly mistake of believing what I have experienced.  I am clearly incorrect, which you have proven with your rock solid counter argument specifically disproving my beliefs and experiences.  And apparently I was always part of the 'in' crowd.  Even when I first started playing Type 1. 
/sarcasm

But, I pretty much hang out with the same people at every event.

So you're being critical of ICBMers or GWSers doing it, but then you admit to hanging out with the same people at each event.  Interesting.  The fact that most people tend to hang out with the same people isn't a type 1 thing--it is a human thing.  If given the choice, most people would rather talk and have a conversation with someone they know than with someone they don't.  I'll probably end up talking to Fisher and Endress more than I will other teammates like Rhyno and Soly simply because I have known and have been friends with Fisher and Endress longer.

Additonally, I do know multiple people that do think the local T1 community is filled with complete asses.  And refuse to play T1 because of it.

There are always people who will think that.  There are also usually some asses.  The latter isn't unique to type 1--it's unique to practically every conceivable social situation that humans hae ever came up with.  Then you have to realize that people can change, especially with age.  And finally, that first impressions can be wrong.  I remember when I first started I thought Ben Carp was a complete ass--and today I would never think such a thing since he is one of the nicest guys I have ever met.

but there is no real attempts to reach out

I can only speak for myself and also talk about what I have observed.  If my opponent played a sportsmanlike match I'll generally inquire about their deck as a conversation starter.  Or I rewind back to a critical play and inquire about why he chose his action--or ask his opinion on my action.  Endress tends to do the latter a lot.

Anyways, I believe this was a good article aimed at those who play other formats and might have an interest.  From the forums, it appears that a number of people don't play Vintage, but still read Steve's articles since they contain tons of facts and are well written. 

I'm moxlotus and I approve this article
/Flag waving in background

I never said I was a better person than anyone else.  Or even that I personally care about growing the T1 community.  I also don't fault anyone for being human.  Although I do agree with you that one can only speak for oneself, which is exactly what I did.  Those were my observations.  It is not my problem that T1 players are elitest.

I hope -- no, I think -- that this is the case.    For people who love Magic, Vintage is pretty much a must-play format simply because its so completely fascinating.   

It would be like going to an amusement park, and riding all of the rides but the tallest and fastest roller coaster.

Sure, it might look terrifying, but it's the coolest and the best.   

Actually, it is a must play format because there are very few good Magic players that play T1 and people give out $200+ prizes.  Give me a 2 on 2 or 3 on 3 draft any day of the week.

[diopter]

I never said I was a better person than anyone else.  Or even that I personally care about growing the T1 community.  I also don't fault anyone for being human.  Although I do agree with you that one can only speak for oneself, which is exactly what I did.  Those were my observations.  It is not my problem that T1 players are elitest.

Vintage players are no more elitist than other Magic players. Propagating the idea that Vintage players are "elitist" (in the sense that they are more so than other Magic players, and thus is a Vintage-specific problem) is highly irresponsible, when you yourself have stated that the Vintage community is no more or less unfriendly than other Magic communities.

Actually, it is a must play format because there are very few good Magic players that play T1 and people give out $200+ prizes.  Give me a 2 on 2 or 3 on 3 draft any day of the week.

There are many good Vintage Magic players that consistently top8 or better.
Vintage and other Magic formats do not have to be mutually exclusive.

[OwenTheEnchanter]

Vintage and other Magic formats do not have to be mutually exclusive.

So true.

[God_Campbell]

I was actually just about to post the exact same thing Owen.

I remember when I entered into vintage magic, and it was some what daunting, but by actually talking to the guys and getting to know them,I entered the circles that you see at tournaments.

I know alot of players that play multiple formats, and can top 8 those events just as well as a vintage tourney.

But please, do not categorize all type 1 players as "elitists", sure there is a few out there, but most of us just enjoy the game and are willing to do what we can to bring players into the best format in the game, as really it is the scary yet amazingly fun rollercoaster.

[playkenny]

I wanna point out that not all Vintage players are "elitists", and there are always tools in every format. Perhapse its an incorrect term, but do you always get the feeling that people view you differently?

Them: "What format do you play?"
Me: "Type 1"
What reaction do you get?
Compare it if you said another format.

Do you hear comments like:
"ooo you play vintage, your so good" (obvious scarcasm on their part)
"why are you here...you dont play (insert format)?" (when you happen to wanna draft? or extended perhapse?)
"YOU type 1 players..." (generalised, boxed in just becasue you play vintage)

Type 1 players may not feel that they are the cream of the crop, they may not have an arrogant personality, but just cos you play vintage, it seems to be the case in the public's eyes...elitist? or elitist by assumption? or elitist format?

I have spoken to lots more people becasue of this thread, asking opinions from current vintage players, players from other formats, players wanting to start vintage, store owners (which should have a clearer perspective), and something keeps cropping up, to quote "the scene here is very insular in that there is a circle, and you're either in or out".

Now, I know were are all human, and we all wanna chit chat in our own little groups, but why is there such a clear difference between Vintage and other formats? Why is there no "circles" with other formats? Call it what you want, elitist or whatever, but there is some barrier new players have to cross. Nature of the format?

Perhpase it may not be just the format, but your group of friends your associated with? Say your friends are all vintage players...i would assume your views on entering the format would be extremely different than say, your average run of the mill non-pro magic player wanting to start?

You don't see thse kinds of discussions in standard, nor would you expect to...so there obviously is something here. Why is it so hard to catch the vintage bug?

[eightywpm]

Anybody can get into the "Standard Scene" by buying packs of Shadowmoor.  You can see what you rip for your 4 bucks and put them together and make something that's legal in their format.

I've yet to rip a lotus/mox/drain/etc out of a booster pack.  I somehow doubt it will ever happen.  To play T1, you have to buy singles.  You dont buy packs, there's rarely any "luck" in what you might get out of a booster pack  as a T1 player.  You snipe individual cards, and I can't speak for anybody else, but after playing T1 the other formats bore me.  In general it's too slow and there's never that inevitable topdeck that will get them out of a nasty situation.  In fact the brokenness of T1 is the reason I choose to play it.  Most of the few cards that I have left aren't even T1 playables but still I choose to pay attention to what's going on in T1 because I find it more fun.

I think that the major difference is that a player who plays predominantly Standard will see a new set and buy booster packs to get staples for the format.  T1 players will see a new set and pick a few cards to snipe from it - case and point would be vroman's predictions stated in another thread.  The rest of the set is more or less worthless in a (competitive) T1 deck.  Net effect - people buying booster packs find that there is nothing within the sets that can make them competitive in a T1 environment.  Instead of buying boosters, they have to search ebay or any of the online stores for singles just to stay competitive - staples which in playsets cost more than an entire box of boosters of the newest set (and this is byepassing power and duals altogehter).

I hate to say it, but I really think that the only way to incite massive interest in T1 would be to reprint all the broken cards so that the gaps between the formats would shrink.  Would you rather spend 50 dollars for 2/3 of a box of cards or a playset of cards only playable in T1?  While it is true that T1 is actually cheaper (over time) than T2 to play, people would rather spend that small amount of money getting boxes of the new set and being able to play T2 than they would saving the money over a long period of time to get staples for the least common format.

I know that the cost of cards is prohibitive enough where I will not attend local tournaments unless they are unlimited proxy.  Even then, it's pretty lame to play a deck with 75 islands and a dead sharpie.

Add to this the fact T1 tournaments are much more scarce than other tournaments and you run into this chicken-and-egg situation.  If there arent any T1 tournaments, nobody will buy T1 cards.  If nobody is buying T1 cards, shops wont host T1 tournaments.

I don't see this changing anytime soon.

[Jo84]

Anybody can get into the "Standard Scene" by buying packs of Shadowmoor.  You can see what you rip for your 4 bucks and put them together and make something that's legal in their format.

I've yet to rip a lotus/mox/drain/etc out of a booster pack.  I somehow doubt it will ever happen.  To play T1, you have to buy singles.  You dont buy packs, there's rarely any "luck" in what you might get out of a booster pack  as a T1 player.  You snipe individual cards, and I can't speak for anybody else, but after playing T1 the other formats bore me.  In general it's too slow and there's never that inevitable topdeck that will get them out of a nasty situation.  In fact the brokenness of T1 is the reason I choose to play it.  Most of the few cards that I have left aren't even T1 playables but still I choose to pay attention to what's going on in T1 because I find it more fun.

I think that the major difference is that a player who plays predominantly Standard will see a new set and buy booster packs to get staples for the format.  T1 players will see a new set and pick a few cards to snipe from it - case and point would be vroman's predictions stated in another thread.  The rest of the set is more or less worthless in a (competitive) T1 deck.  Net effect - people buying booster packs find that there is nothing within the sets that can make them competitive in a T1 environment.  Instead of buying boosters, they have to search ebay or any of the online stores for singles just to stay competitive - staples which in playsets cost more than an entire box of boosters of the newest set (and this is byepassing power and duals altogehter).

I hate to say it, but I really think that the only way to incite massive interest in T1 would be to reprint all the broken cards so that the gaps between the formats would shrink.  Would you rather spend 50 dollars for 2/3 of a box of cards or a playset of cards only playable in T1?  While it is true that T1 is actually cheaper (over time) than T2 to play, people would rather spend that small amount of money getting boxes of the new set and being able to play T2 than they would saving the money over a long period of time to get staples for the least common format.

I know that the cost of cards is prohibitive enough where I will not attend local tournaments unless they are unlimited proxy.  Even then, it's pretty lame to play a deck with 75 islands and a dead sharpie.

Add to this the fact T1 tournaments are much more scarce than other tournaments and you run into this chicken-and-egg situation.  If there arent any T1 tournaments, nobody will buy T1 cards.  If nobody is buying T1 cards, shops wont host T1 tournaments.

I don't see this changing anytime soon.

Shadowmoor is legal in Vintage, too. You can start into Vintage by buying Shadowmoor boosters as well as into Standard. The only difference is, you MIGHT get your deck together by buying boosters, but if you want to be competitive - and that´s the point because otherwise any Standard deck is a non-competitive Vintage deck too - you either need to buy hundreds of boosters (which costs hundreds of money) or buy the cards directly via internet.

In my opinion most people get their cards from the second option, and that´s not only Vintage/Legacy player. Standard players want to have 4 Cryptic Command or 4 Reveillark etc, only the card names sometimes differ.
It doesn´t matter which format you play, each format needs a distinct pool of cards to be competitive.

[RThomas]

I hate to say it, but I really think that the only way to incite massive interest in T1 would be to reprint all the broken cards so that the gaps between the formats would shrink.  Would you rather spend 50 dollars for 2/3 of a box of cards or a playset of cards only playable in T1?  While it is true that T1 is actually cheaper (over time) than T2 to play, people would rather spend that small amount of money getting boxes of the new set and being able to play T2 than they would saving the money over a long period of time to get staples for the least common format.

As an aside to nip this in the bud before this thread switches to this topic, I would encourage you to utilize the search function to find the numerous discussions about this matter that have taken place in the past. 

It seems that the ones with this argument are those who predominantly play other formats.  I'm not sure what the actual demographic is, but I have never played any other format (than Type One and Legacy).  Perhaps those players who are native to other formats are afraid that their Eternal investments are not going to help them in their sanctioned tournament quests.  I would think that those who have a moral problem acquiring Type One cards have a more pressing problem than having trouble finding where those cards are.  To answer playkenny's last question, in my opinion the problem our format has is that new players are either:

-native to other formats, and have a problem with Type One cards interfering with their costs for other formats
-new players that are not familiar with the many nuances of Magic, let alone Type One

Perhaps this squeeze is part of what sets the bar high as far as entry into this format goes.  Or maybe it is because the play of a game of Type One is a bit different than how they first learned to play the game.  Those who misunderstand how the shape of the game changes, but still keeps the same rules and cards, would be less likely to understand how Type One works and would be intimidated by the changes they must accept.  The slower game of Standard might resemble those initial casual bouts into the game better than a match of our format.

[arctic79]

hate to say it, but I really think that the only way to incite massive interest in T1 would be to reprint all the broken cards so that the gaps between the formats would shrink.  Would you rather spend 50 dollars for 2/3 of a box of cards or a playset of cards only playable in T1?  While it is true that T1 is actually cheaper (over time) than T2 to play, people would rather spend that small amount of money getting boxes of the new set and being able to play T2 than they would saving the money over a long period of time to get staples for the least common format.

A good point.  I've believed for a long time that if Wizards really did care about the Vintage environment they would do more to bolster the interest of new players.  Getting in to Vintage is daunting.  Most new Vintage players show up to tournaments and are seriously crushed by their oppenents superior cards, overwhelmed tthey seldom come back for more beatings.  When they do ask how to improve their decks they get the same answers, go buy 4xFoW, get duals, etc... That is a big hit to the wallet or a big hit to their trade binders, and a bigger hit to there willingness to join the community.  If Wizards really wanted to increase playership in the Vintage environment they should do a stand alone reprint of Type 1 staples (that are legal).  Hell they could charge $15 a pack and sell out in no time.  Oh, but what about the secondary market?   Wouldn't  it decrease the value of all these overpirced cards?  I doubt it would change things much.  Most veteran Vintage players would still rather have the Betas and foriegn foils.  Besides if any retailer thinks that having 5 cards worth $200 each sit in their showcase for 2 months is better then selling 50 cards at $30-$40 each plus the booster packs at $15 each is a retard and deserves to go out of business. 
But to seriously foster growth in the the format veteran players need to help encourage the new kids with advice, budget alternatives, and sharing of card pools.  Personally I'll lend out almost anything in my collection to almost any player that shows up to our local Vintage tourneys.  Don't be a douche and laugh at a new players poor card pool, serioulsy that is the most disrespectful and discouraging thing you can do.

[coyoteuglly]

hate to say it, but I really think that the only way to incite massive interest in T1 would be to reprint all the broken cards so that the gaps between the formats would shrink.  Would you rather spend 50 dollars for 2/3 of a box of cards or a playset of cards only playable in T1?  While it is true that T1 is actually cheaper (over time) than T2 to play, people would rather spend that small amount of money getting boxes of the new set and being able to play T2 than they would saving the money over a long period of time to get staples for the least common format.

A good point.  I've believed for a long time that if Wizards really did care about the Vintage environment they would do more to bolster the interest of new players.  Getting in to Vintage is daunting.  Most new Vintage players show up to tournaments and are seriously crushed by their oppenents superior cards, overwhelmed tthey seldom come back for more beatings.  When they do ask how to improve their decks they get the same answers, go buy 4xFoW, get duals, etc... That is a big hit to the wallet or a big hit to their trade binders, and a bigger hit to there willingness to join the community.  If Wizards really wanted to increase playership in the Vintage environment they should do a stand alone reprint of Type 1 staples (that are legal).  Hell they could charge $15 a pack and sell out in no time.  Oh, but what about the secondary market?   Wouldn't  it decrease the value of all these overpirced cards?  I doubt it would change things much.  Most veteran Vintage players would still rather have the Betas and foriegn foils.  Besides if any retailer thinks that having 5 cards worth $200 each sit in their showcase for 2 months is better then selling 50 cards at $30-$40 each plus the booster packs at $15 each is a retard and deserves to go out of business. 
But to seriously foster growth in the the format veteran players need to help encourage the new kids with advice, budget alternatives, and sharing of card pools.  Personally I'll lend out almost anything in my collection to almost any player that shows up to our local Vintage tourneys.  Don't be a douche and laugh at a new players poor card pool, serioulsy that is the most disrespectful and discouraging thing you can do.

Wizards has stated many times they don't really care more than they have to about T1.  Sure T1 gets a nod here and there.  But largely they do not use time and resources on a format that brings them almost no income.

Most PTQ players buy there cards off EBay and/or dealers at an event.  Casual players are the ones that typically buy boxes from stores.

No I am not a T1 player.  And my points are not based on a T1 players perspective.  The only way I play T1 is if I can find people willing to borrow me cards.  If I can't, o well.  Missing a T1 tournament isn't a big deal to me.

I'm not saying any group of players is any less elitist than other groups of Magic players.  I am just stating a common perspective from my experiences with other players.  PTQ players are normally considered elitist by casual players, you don't hear us crying about it.  It is just a simple fact and I very highly doubt it will go away no matter what is done.  But all one can do about it is individually not be an ass to other people.

But on the whole no matter how much people sit and talk about it, there are just people that don't like T1.  Deal with it.  Everyone has there own opinion on what makes Magic fun.  The reality of that is that most people do not like T1.  Even among T1 players I hear more complaining about how the format sucks (because of Flash, Gifts, Trinisphere, whatever) at any given time than any other formats.  T1 is a pretty stale format in all reality.  You play Gush decks or Flash, than people play decks with Dark Confidants that beat those decks.  Than occasionally someone plays the Boogieman (Ichorid) and scares a couple people.

[Troy_Costisick]

Wizards has stated many times they don't really care more than they have to about T1.  Sure T1 gets a nod here and there.  But largely they do not use time and resources on a format that brings them almost no income.

This is patently false.  The RnD team for Magic, especially Mike Turian, has shown a great deal of interest in the Vintage community and takes its oppinions on matters relating to the format very seriously.  Your accusation is baseless.

If Wizards really wanted to increase playership in the Vintage environment they should do a stand alone reprint of Type 1 staples (that are legal). 

This isn't a bad idea, but I think they are trying to do that already in their own way.  Vintage got many new staples in Time Spiral Block- perhaps more than any block since Urza's Block.  Lorwyn brought 3 new cards to ther format that were updated versions of older cards and all three see a great deal of play.   Shadowmoor is giving us an updated red blast and a terrific GY hate card.  So I think that the RnD team has Vintage on their minds as much as they can.  The bar for entry into the Vintage card pool is quite high, so I don't think we can expect them to print cards for it every set.  At the same time, it's pretty clear that if a card in development *can* be useful for Vintage they aren't affraid to put it in an expansion as long as it doesn't break the other formats.

Peace,

-Troy

[aosquirrels]

We can all get along, have a great time, and have great judges, tournament organizers, and great community, but ultimately this has to be a game that people want to play.  

BINGO!

From my perspective (T.O. and Store Owner) I have to say that this statement hits the nail right smack on the head.  You can't MAKE people play vintage.  Once a person becomes inquisitive to the format we can only hope that he/she is fed POSITIVE information.  In my little world here in Colorado I too often see (or hear) players inquire about vintage and get the "its expensive" lecture.  Telling players right off the bat that you need this, two of that, 4 playsets of those and these, and don't forget your sideboard.  This is a recipe for failure.  If a person gets positive feedback from his or her initial inquiry then maybe....just maybe....that individual will WANT to play.  If they truly WANT to play they will somehow FIND a way to get into the format.  

Just my humble opinion and observation.

[Necrologia]

I'm sad to hear that so many people have had negative experiences trying to get into Type 1. It's a daunting task for sure, so my friends and I are always open to helping people out. Going to an average tournament I'll loan out a dozen or more cards, everything from duals to power. One time I loaned virtually an entire MUD deck to a friend. If your first time dabbling in Type 1 wasn't so fun, learn from it. Help others so they don't have to go through what you did. I love teaching people to play Magic, and getting people to play Type 1 is just as fun.

Where we play there are indeed cliques. There's our little group of Type 1 players, drafters, the big multiplayer game crew, etc. All of the Type 1 players occasionally dabble in the other formats and we do our best to introduce the format to others. I can't count how many times in the last year or two I've heard someone say "Type 1 is all about turn 1 kills" or some other old stereotype. I ask if they'd like to play a game and loan em a deck. All it takes is 2 or 3 games to show em the truth and get em hooked.

What people need to remember is that Magic is a niche hobby. Vintage is a niche within that niche. I'm not surprised that there are jerks driving people away from the format, but I am disappointed. The best way to learn Magic is from another player. In the same way, as Vintage players we should all act as envoys of the format. It's by far the best way to show people what Vintage is all about, and to get them involved in the format.

[Xman]

Wizards has stated many times they don't really care more than they have to about T1.  Sure T1 gets a nod here and there.  But largely they do not use time and resources on a format that brings them almost no income.

The people I have known who worked at Wizards loved Vintage.  Sure, they can't print new sets of the cards or something like that, but they love it nonetheless.  They looked upon it like a "Hall of Fame" as all of their creations were legal & could interact in the most insane way possible.  But then again, that's the opinion of people I know who used to work at Wizards.

No I am not a T1 player.  And my points are not based on a T1 players perspective.  The only way I play T1 is if I can find people willing to borrow me cards.  If I can't, o well.  Missing a T1 tournament isn't a big deal to me.

Ok. I don't want to nitpick, but it is lend me cards.  You borrow from someone, you lend to someone.  Just for future reference.

I'm not saying any group of players is any less elitist than other groups of Magic players.  I am just stating a common perspective from my experiences with other players.  PTQ players are normally considered elitist by casual players, you don't hear us crying about it.  It is just a simple fact and I very highly doubt it will go away no matter what is done.  But all one can do about it is individually not be an ass to other people.

I think, in general, we don't really pay attention to the other formats.  I know that sounds bad, but I think it is the truth.  How many people on TMD honestly go around playing lots of games in the other formats.  I don't have time.  Or the Money to truly play multiple formats.  I will play Legacy also, and if I can borrow a deck from one of my friends, a little Extended, but for the most part, I only play Type 1.  Also, How many people on TMD can name details about competitive decks in other formats?  I haven't got a clue about them.

Does that make me a bad person or an "elitist."  Do I really care about a prerelease?  Or a PTQ?  Or Drafting?  or FNM?

But on the whole no matter how much people sit and talk about it, there are just people that don't like T1.

You finally hit the nail on the head.  Congratulations.  Magic is a game.  As I have pointed out numerous times on other forums, you play games because you enjoy them.  I enjoy playing Type 1.  I enjoy playing the most insane version of the game.  I enjoy having cards like Yawg's Win 7 Time Walk in a deck because silly things ensue.  Everyone in this format knows this pleasure.  Hell, it is acceptable to lose one game out of the match to your opponents sheer brokenness.  I don't believe this is the case in any other format.

Type 1 is not for everyone.  But the people who play it & love it know one simple truth.  Welcome to Type Fun.  Broken Shit Happens.

The reality of that is that most people do not like T1.

I think that most people either have (1) a predetermined notion incorrectly of what the format is or (2) Have not been introduced to the format.  There is also the fact it is not all that common in all areas outside of places like the North East, parts of Colorado, Parts of the Midwest, and parts of Europe.  If there were more tournaments, then that would help.

Hell, I tried in Flagstaff Arizona for years to get a scene going.  I would bring 4 decks, and anyone could borrow them.  I went out & got sets of duals to put up as prizes.  Or Force of Wills.  Or other items like that.  Thats the way to start.  Don't just have a mox tournament, but give out the staples.  Let people have shots at getting them before a mox tournament.  It helps by getting people the cards they need that can help in Vintage & Legacy.

Even among T1 players I hear more complaining about how the format sucks (because of Flash, Gifts, Trinisphere, whatever) at any given time than any other formats.

As I recall, there was quite a lot of bitching about Raffinity in Type 2 back in Mirroden days.  But I don't want this thread to derail into another B&R Argument over Flash or whatever.  The problems with two of the cards you mention is what the actually do.  There is an acceptable level of brokenness & there are cards that super-cede that acceptable level.  Trinisphere generally did this.  Flash is the other card you can argue that does this.  The situations are similar, yet very different at the same time.

T1 is a pretty stale format in all reality.  You play Gush decks or Flash, thane people play decks with Dark Confidants that beat those dcks.  Than occasionally someone plays the Boogieman (Ichorid) and scares a couple people.

You honestly believe the format is stale?  Why?  Because the staples are used in many different decks.  Gush is used in Oath, GAT, & Gush Storm (3 quick decks).  All three play differently.  Because on paper they appear to be almost identical doesn't mean they all play the same.  There is a lot of innovation that changes things in this format.  Oath came along to beat GAT.  Flash finally found it's best kill, and is using & abusing it.  Now, because of that, Extirpate is seeing more play in the board & main.  Because of Ichorid, Leyline of the Void is seeing a lot more play.  It used to be Jailer, but I don't know anymore.

Cores of the decks change slowly over time.  This is because with the current card pool, the arguable best engines have already been found.  The decks are all tuned to within an inch of perfection.  It is like a car.  How much more can you fiddle with a Ferrari Enzo or a Koenisegg CCX or a Bugatti Veyron or an Ascari A10?  These cars are built & tested & rebuilt & retested & etc. until they get to as close to perfection as possible.  And when a new car comes along like the Audi R8, the others change or it falls by the wayside, forgotten & inferior.

That is the truth about Type 1.  The engines are tuned to an inch of perfection.  Until a cards gets restricted or a new card gets introduced, the engines stay the same.  The control packages stay the same because they are the best packages.  The decks are ALL similar.  Most decks run Blue fetches.  Most run Ancestral.  Most run Yawg's Win.  Most run Force of Will.  Most run some aspect of the moxen.  The differences are subtle.  And when a deck forces you to change your board or one of your "free" main deck option slots, then it happens & you change your deck to answer to the threat.  But you can bring in the absolute best answers possible.  Despite the fact you may be playing an incredibly narrow card like Submerge, but if that narrow card is the best answer, it becomes the best card for that slot.  And at times, the best card in your deck.

[playkenny]

We can all get along, have a great time, and have great judges, tournament organizers, and great community, but ultimately this has to be a game that people want to play.  

BINGO!

From my perspective (T.O. and Store Owner) I have to say that this statement hits the nail right smack on the head.  You can't MAKE people play vintage.  Once a person becomes inquisitive to the format we can only hope that he/she is fed POSITIVE information.  In my little world here in Colorado I too often see (or hear) players inquire about vintage and get the "its expensive" lecture.  Telling players right off the bat that you need this, two of that, 4 playsets of those and these, and don't forget your sideboard.  This is a recipe for failure.  If a person gets positive feedback from his or her initial inquiry then maybe....just maybe....that individual will WANT to play.  If they truly WANT to play they will somehow FIND a way to get into the format.  

Just my humble opinion and observation.

BINGO x 2

Positive feedback plus knowledge which breaks down the myths of Vintage is so important.

[toor]

On the topic of the article. I am a premium subscriber and mainly a PTQ player. However I will always play in any format if I can borrow the cards or deck. This kind of article gives me some ideas of what I could put together. So far I have only played Flash because given a type 2 collection + some extended playables it required the least to borrow. But it didnt even occur me to that GAT might be a cheap alternative. And when I saw the MBC list I tried to put it together only to realize its actually way more then Flash.

And as for friendliness in the community I have found here at the Bay Area everyone is awesome. This might be just because I know so many people through other formats, but Vintage and Legacy is only playable to me  because I can borrow cards from a few awesome people.

And at the last tourney we even invited one of the vintage only regulars to draft shadowmoor with us (this was day after prerelease), for someone who drafted 1/50th as much as we do, he was able to hold his own and help win both team drafts (and he got his playset of faerie macabre 2 weeks before anyone else).

P.S. If your in the bay area and can lend me 3 mana drains at Eudo this sunday =D.

[Moxlotus]

  T1 is a pretty stale format in all reality.  You play Gush decks or Flash, than people play decks with Dark Confidants that beat those decks

You do realize the top decks consistantly change?
Here is a rough order of the "top decks" over the past few years. I may have missed a few, but looking at the order, you can tell how the next one down had an advantage over the one above it.
U/R fish
4trinisphere Shop aggro
CS
5c Stax and Uba Stax
Pitch Long
Gifts
4Gush.dec
Thorn of Amethyst aggro and DeezNaughts/Goyfs
Tyrant Oath
Flash

[Thicketman]

I am far from the best vintage player, but I will say this, "I do not play any other format."  I love vintage. It is powerful. It is valuable. It is nostalgic. It is virtually boundless. There are no little children playing.

Sure there are top decks, that take over the metagame for a little while until the next top decks, but I find it fun to struggle through with a deck that I enjoy. Some people play to win and always switch to the current top deck and some people play to have fun and play the deck they enjoy.

100% Vintage for me even though I can't afford a lot of it and I'm not that good. I can still afford more than little children and I'm not the worst vintage player.

[Smmenen]

We can all get along, have a great time, and have great judges, tournament organizers, and great community, but ultimately this has to be a game that people want to play. 

BINGO!

From my perspective (T.O. and Store Owner) I have to say that this statement hits the nail right smack on the head.  You can't MAKE people play vintage.  Once a person becomes inquisitive to the format we can only hope that he/she is fed POSITIVE information.  In my little world here in Colorado I too often see (or hear) players inquire about vintage and get the "its expensive" lecture.  Telling players right off the bat that you need this, two of that, 4 playsets of those and these, and don't forget your sideboard.  This is a recipe for failure.  If a person gets positive feedback from his or her initial inquiry then maybe....just maybe....that individual will WANT to play.  If they truly WANT to play they will somehow FIND a way to get into the format.   

Just my humble opinion and observation.

Definitely.  But I also was trying to make the point that the format itself can sell itself in the sense that once people give it a try, it's pretty addictive.  The allure of the format - the decks and the cards themselves, should be the format's biggest selling point. 

[Necrologia]

Definitely.  But I also was trying to make the point that the format itself can sell itself in the sense that once people give it a try, it's pretty addictive.  The allure of the format - the decks and the cards themselves, should be the format's biggest selling point. 

That's exactly right from my experience. Once people get over their initial fears about the format (turn 1 kills, uninteractive, whatever) they're hooked. If you want to get people into the format, build some decks and loan them out for an evening. Try and organize an infinite proxy tourney if you can. Once you get people started in the format there's a very good chance that they're in for life.

For most people I've found GAT is the best deck to introduce them to. It's powerful, yet still wins with creatures and is fairly straightforward. TTS or MUD or something can be much more complicated to just pickup and play. That said, 2 weeks ago I got a friend started in the format by loaning him a MUD deck that he promptly added Rings of Brighthearth, Time Vault and Staff of Domination to. My first choice wouldn't have been a mono brown combo deck but he apparently had a blast with it.

Type 1 is a fun format. It's really not that hard of a sell if you can help people with the card availability problem.