suggestionss on my BLK LD/Void deck

[reaperbong]

Hello,

This is my first post on the forum, i've been lurking for a while. I've been playing vintage since The Dark but just casually.

I have this fun little beatdown land destruction deck i keep, it's pretty mean but i'd like it to be more competitive, even if I have to lose some of the fun cards.. also I only use cards I own so if there are missing Power 9 that's why, Although I do have a Time Walk, Timetwister, and Mox Sapphire if anyone suggests to splash blue.

I'm looking to spend some good money to buy the cards I need for this deck, probably two more Bobs I think and possibly Tarmogoyf. iI wish i had another Berserk as well and might  look to buy one..


x20 land/mana:

4 Bayous
4 Swamps
2 Urborg Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Cabal Coffers
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Diamond
1 Strip Mine
4 Wastland


x20 spells and artifacts:

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Sinkhole
2 Nether Void
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Icequake
1 Sol Ring
1 Lotus Petal

x10 beatdown/finishers

4 Nantuko Shade
2 Juzam Djinn (i know what you'll say but i'm stubborn since i have two of them from way back in the day)
2 Dark Confidant
1 Sengir Vampire (for fun kinda but also a nice finisher and my only flyer)
1 Liliana Vess (for fun experimenting, great tutor for lockdown cards like a Void or Crucible)

x10 other stuff

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Crop Rotation
1 Fastbond
1 Berserk
2 Tendrils of Agony

and 1x Chaos Orb to make 61.  I take it out if players object, anyone with a nice Beta Chaos Orbe likes to put it to good use 

It feels like I'm missing something here, maybe I'll think of it later.

Much thanks for any comments or suggestions. I'd like to know what kind of decks could easily beat this deck and what cards to add that helps against these decks that are good enough overall, or to sideboard. I almost played it at a local tourney a few months back just for fun but couldn't show up at the last minute, sucks cause it was for an Ancestral Recall in Prague by the way.

I play it with a few peeps at the store with good Fish decks, even with full P9 and such and it can get a good successfull lockdown, sometimes turn 1 after opponent: wasteland + Nantuko then turn 2 drop a Nether Void and keep killing lands while i beatdown. I know it must look ridiculously simple to some people, but heh it's fun for an old school simple type like myself. I know there will be naysayers for Juicy as well but a turn 1 Juzam followed by some LD can mess things up quick, and I like the idea of keeping some classic aggro in Vintage.

[reaperbong]

Damn, no 'hello welcome to the forum' at least or anything?

Ok well I guess nevermind, the deck will just continue to kick ass as it is. I was going to post my competitive deck for critique  but judging by the way i've been shunned I guess I'll just slowly back out of here...

seeya around 

[the boogie man]

I think that if you post a more competitive deck, it will spark a bit more interest than a void deck. Perhaps no one likes void anymore.

btw, Welcome to the mana drain .

A lot of people use to like green, which you could use for tarmogoyf and rootmaze, which are sweet. Duress effects are really huge, probably better than icequakes, a cabal coffers, and something else. And four confidants are necessary. They are so good right now.

[reaperbong]

Hey thanks, pay no mind to the tit fit, I was getting a bit jaded after 100 views and no comments.

This is indeed my casual deck, my point is I want to make it competitive. Looking for either some ways to make it competitive or for someone to just say give it up LD/Void decks are not viable end of story duh. It started out as a place to play with favorite cards that I never play like Sinkholes, Nether Voids and Juzam Djinns.

For now I'm moving out the Icequakes and Cabal Coffers for 4 Thoughtseize/Duress and the Lilianna Vess and Crop Rotation I'll drop for two more Dark Confidant.

4 Bayous
4 Swamps
2 Urborg Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Diamond
1 Strip Mine
4 Wastland
1 Sol Ring
1 Lotus Petal

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Sinkhole
4 Duress/Thoughtseize
2 Nether Void
2 Crucible of Worlds

4 Nantuko Shade
4 Dark Confidant
2 Juzam Djinn
1 Sengir Vampire

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Fastbond
1 Berserk
2 Tendrils of Agony

Your comments are much appreciated. 

[the boogie man]

You should consider running leyline md. It is free, and you should have no problem paying for it either, and it is awsome in this meta. If you run another void, maybe 3-4 vexing shusher should be considered. He makes void way more one-sided, especially since you can play him through it for 2 mana.

I really think that bargain is not worth it. Void makes it near impossible to win with the enchantments, but necro comes out much faster. And I don't like the tendrils in this deck anyway. sengir vamp just isn't worth it, and neither is the djinn, but if you want to run them, its cool. Tarmogoyf, though, is the same p/t, but costs 2 mana.

crop rotation, in my opinion, should be added back in, maybe even wit one or two bazaar, just for filtering. The rotation finds strip mine, which can be huge. berserk. imho, is not worth it, especially as a one-of. more duress wouldn't hurt either, especially right before laying a void down.

edit: bitterblossom is worth a look, creating a win condition over time. probably better than shade. removal would be nice, too. maybe a couple darkblast?

[CalebD]

I agree with the boogie man about crop rotation, it should probably stay in. Whether you keep bargain depends on whether you keep cabal ritual (I think you should drop both)

As a replacement for the storm combo why not run zuran orb instead? It's synergistic with the rest of the deck, as you're already running crucible/fastbond, it would simply give your tutors a different purpose while using less slots. Those slots could be more business spells and disruption.

Manlands seem like they could work under void pretty well while giving you an answer to their turn one creature.

I'd splash white for balance, but from the looks of things you don't have the mula for the artifacts necessary to make it bomb-tastic.

Good luck with the deck!

[the boogie man]

mishras factory does look real enticing. I also agree with the cabal ritual statement, 4 are definately overkill. probably cut 2 for the manlands.

[reaperbong]

kick ass! thanks guys, exactly what I needed. Now I'll have a great shopping list for when I next head to the store.  This deck is old and stale, literally more then 10 years old most of it. just wanted to pull it out of the closet and give it a refurnishing. I'll be making most of the changes you've suggested, even have some old 4th edition Mishra's Factorys to throw in for now until I buy some nice ones.

I'm surprised at the opinion that the Berserk isn't worth it, I'll keep it if only because it's a beautiful Alpha but also it goes great with the Shades, not hard to pump him up to 10 or with a Juzam  it can basically gain an extra turn for the win. Now with Tarmogoyf has it been officially overthrown as the best green card?

I was also thinking of putting in 2 Maze of Ith instead of the swamps since I'm running Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth. Does anyone play with the Maze anymore? playing it with a few Urborgs is good stuff I think.

Bitterblossom now that's an interesting card.. I'll pick up a playset and try it out.

One question, help me understand.. If I drop the Tendrils and my flyer without running the Bitterblossom then my ONLY win condition will be groundpounder aggro. Isn't this a bit risky? does nobody play with Moats anymore? As you can probably tell I'm not really up to snuff, stopped playing when Ice Age was out and didn't start again until Time Spiral so I'm trying to make up for A LOT of lost time here. Your suggestions are very much appreciated.

PS I have power 5 of 9 now but used to have them all. The comment about mula for the artifacts just kills me though, can you imagine I sold a beautiful beta Lotus once for around 500 dollars! at the time it was a good deal   I don't think I'll ever see that again

[the boogie man]

nobody plays moats at all. ever. the closest thing you have to worry about is bridge from below.

this is another reason to maindeck leyline. leyline or faerie macabre, to add to the mid-late game clock. but probably leyline.

I really think that shade is old tech. bitterblossom does what he does over time, is good at blocking, and is really good when void comes down the next turn. Shade, on the other hand, is also outclassed on the fast beats section when you consider tarmogoyf, who is huge for free, and isn't as unimpressive in multiples.

I really don't think that berserk is that worth it, considering what I think are the optimal win conditions. And I never really see me casting it on a confidant. It wouldn't be bad on a tarmogoyf, but I'd usually rather he stick around.

root maze is an interesting card to consider. it slows a lot of decks way down, especially considering you don't run fetches. Fetches take two turns to even make mana. This also makes nether void a bit more powerful.

I really think that vexing shusher should be considered heavily. Against decks with counters, your confidant, tarmogoyf, nether void, etc... definately resolve. and, after void, he still comes down for 2 green, and allows you to continue to cast crucible, guys, sinkhole etc... for 2 mana cheaper than your opponents pay. and he's still a 2/2 at the end of the day.


what is your tentative list? If I was going to play this tomorrow at a tournament, I'd do something like this:

4 wasteland
4 mire/delta
3 bayou
2 mishras factory
2 swamp
1 urborg
strip mine

black lotus
mox jet
mox green
lotus petal
sol ring

4 dark ritual
(26)

4 dark confidant
4 tarmogoyf
3 vexing shusher
3 bitterblossom

4 leyline of the void
3 thoughtseize
3 nether void
2 crucible of worlds
2 duress

demonic tutor
vampiric tutor
yawg will
crop rotation
fastbond

1 zuran orb

I really think that the lonely zorb is a good idea, for an instant win combo. And Without the storm kill, necro does not seem to hold it's own weight, even with the dark rituals. Life loss may turn out to be on issue, but hopefully you pull off the combo if you live that long, or just beat to death.

[Kraken]

I have been playing versions of void for a long while and I will post my current deck to give you more ideas on directions to take.  I am currently running a BG void deck.  I will post the deck I am using right now and then I will post the changes (minor) I was planning on doing.  My meta is not powered or very little.  Here goes...

8 swamp
4 bayou
4 polluted delta
4 wasteland
3 mishra's factory
1 strip mine

1 mox jet
1 black lotus
4 dark ritual

1 demonic consultation
1 demonic tutor
1 necropotence

4 duress
4 sinkhole
4 hymn to tourach
3 nether void

4 pernicious deed

4 tarmogoyf
4 hypnotic specter

First of all, I want to point out that this deck originaly had nantuko shade and I replaced them with tarmogoyf.  Usually it is always a 4/5 or more and I don't have to pump any mana into tarmo.  It works out much better and allows me to use my mana to cast more disruption under void instead of pumping shade.  For hypnotic specter, I have mixted feelings.  Usually it prevents the opponent from recovering from a void or intense disruption, but unless I get a dark ritual it is usually a bit slow coming into play and getting a first attack in.  Even if I have liked this card for so long and do not want to admit it, I am now under the impression it is a win more card.  Mishra's factory has worked wonders and is almost a guaranted win if you can get a lotus, mishra and void on turn 1.  It also helps me out a lot in the early game since there are a few aggro based decks in my meta.  I want to mention that all my decks are usually oriented towards heavy mana bases and acceleration to strike quickly.  I also consider that life is relatively irrelevant until you are about to hit 0 life, which is reflected in my play style.  I think this helps me wait for the right moment to use the deeds and make them much more effective.  With this in mind, here are the changes I WANT to implement but have not tested:

-1 mishra's factory
-4 hypnotic specter
+1 mox emerald
+4 dark confidant

I was skeptical about dark confidant and afraid that I would die without being able to get the win even if I managed a lockdown, since void sometimes kills slower under a lock.  This is surprising considering I am not afraid of losing life, usually.  What changed my mind is the inclusion of tarmogoyf that usually enables me to deal more damage to my opponent early and the ability to continu striking big with him while doing disruption under void.  In the past, with the shade, I had to hit for 2-3 damage to cast disruption spells and continu to stall my opponent.  This is no longuer an issue.  Dark confidant also only needs 1 black mana and is easy to cast for my deck.  It will speed up even more my clock and combined with the speed I gained from goyf it should be sufficient to kill without losing too much life after doing a lock.  My deed can always destroy my confidant if he is starting to put me in a dangerous position or I can chump block with him.  The addition of mox emerald is done to speed up even more the deck, enabling me to cast more often a first turn confidant or goyf.  I removed mishra because confidant will be able to chump block if needed and that the extra cards should give me more than enought ammunition than needed to compensate.  Even if it is not as usefull as mishra under a void, it will allow me to get the mana count needed to cast spells under void faster.

I hope this gives you some ideas and don't hesitate to ask if you want me to go more in details on the general deck strategy/plan.

[Gort32]

I have also had good luck using Blurred Mongoose and other cheap uncounterable creatures.  This allows me to drop a Void before I am firmly established and still pull out cheap creatures through the Void's additional mana requirements.

[reaperbong]

Excellent posts guys! Your input is much appreciated. I was able to do some shopping at the local store, wasn't able to get everything I wanted but here's the physical deck so far.

4 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
4 Swamp
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Diamond
1 Lotus Pedal
1 Sol Ring
2 Maze of Ith
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

4 Sinkhole
3 Crucible of Worlds
2 Nether Void
1 Trinisphere
1 Fastbond
1 Zuron Orb
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Crop Rotation

4 Dark Confidant
2 Bitterblossom
3 Nantuko Shade
2 Juzam Djinn
2 Bad Moon
1 Berserk

I want 4 Bitterblossoms but the store only had two. Also they were out of Vexing Shusher and Leylines. I'd love to have Tarmogoyfs but I slept on Future Sight and now they are too expensive for me. I'll have to wait until they rotate out of Standard. Besides, the Juzams and Nantuko can hold their place for now. Fuck what ya heard, first turn Juzam still brings the pain, especially with some LD to stall you a turn or two. Also I'd love to have Mishra's but I need to get Antiquities ones still, my 4th edition ones are just too damn ugly.

The Bad Moons are fun, probably not ideal Type 1 material but I really like how they protect the Bobs and turn him into a decent beater along with the others. Also with the Bitterblossoms of course I think things can get insanse, hopefully the Moons might have a chance at playability in this deck.

The local meta here in Prague is quite unpowered as long as a P9 isn't up for grabs and then the Germans come rolling in. Also there are always proxys allowed in the tourneys which is kind of annoying but whatever. I'll be playing next Friday and probably leave my normal Type 1 deck at home to test this sucker out, should be a small Tournament with no more then 20 people playing. I have 3 slots to fill still,  I'll drop the Swamps and throw in my Underground Seas plus the Twister, Walk and Sapphire maybe just so they don't go to waste. Who knows it might surprise, I'll surely let people here know if I bring home the Mana Drain.

Thanks again! 

[Harlequin]

Along the same idea as Shusher - Demigod of Revenge can ignore Nether Void.   So for
5/4 - Flying, haste
When you play Demigod of Revenge, return all cards named Demigod of Revenge from your graveyard to play.

Stack the abilties so that you resolve nethervoid before you resolve the "When you plany Demigod of Revenege" trigger.  The nethervoid resolves, you choose not to pay, and he is countered and put into the graveyard.  Now you resolve the other trigger and it we will essentially return himself to play (without casting).

[NicolaeAlmighty]

He costs 5  , not 6.

Thats a sick interaction O_O

[reaperbong]

Yea that Demigod of Revenge looks perfect. I'll probably drop the Nantukos, Juzams and the berserk, for a few Demigods, Dark Rituals, two more Bitterblossoms and I need to buy another Nether Void, there's an Italian one at the store I might go for.

Does anyone think that the price of Tarmogoyf will drop when rotated out of standard? Is there any reason to think that the price may increase? I wouldn't mind to buy a few now if it's not going to make much difference in the future..

[Harlequin]

At this point, I'm not sure what Green is really offering you outside of a combo/trick.  I think you'd probably be better off running Red instead and going for a Welder sub-theme.  Here's a list I tossed together:

Voidshusher:
2 Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained
1 Swamp
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Cabal coffer
3 Waste/Strip
3 lotus, Sol, manavault
5 Mox
2 Bazaar
4 SSG / Dark Rit / Cabal Rit
--
4 Chalice
3 Nethervoid
4 Shusher
4 Welder

4 Tutors: DT/Vamp/Demonic Consultation/Entomb/Gamble
2 Bitterblossom / Gorialla Shamana / Magus of the Moon**
3 Demigod of Revenge
3 Crucible
1 Squee
1 Duplicant
1 Sundering Titan   


** You could make the deck more about Magus of the Moon... to do this, increase your basic swamp count to about 3-4 and then make room for 4x Magus... 2 Bitter blossom, Squee, and I dunno a welder or a tutor...

[Masta]

Wow, this deck became very different very fast!  First off, I have to say, “I play Moats.”  I’m probably the only one that does, but I love it!  If I’m ever in Europe for a tourney, I’ll let you know so you can prepare accordingly!

Reaperbong, I honestly don’t think there’s a need to veer far away from what has worked in the past with this kind of deck.  It’s kind of hard to tell what your main strategy is with these lists whether you're going for a quick aggro win or a slow controlling-aggro win.  What’s wrong with having your core look like:

4 Bob
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Phyrexian Negator/Flesh Reaver over Juzams

4 Duress
4 Sinkhole
4 Unmask/Hymn to Tourach
4 Dark Ritual
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Yawgmoth’s Will

4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

There’s a little wiggle room left to do as you please, but this is definitely close to old school builds (with the addition of Bobs) that work.  Some notables:

Duress – How can you not include Duress in any deck that plays black in T1?
Hypnotic Specter – Dark Rit -> Hippy is one of the best opening plays in magic.  Always has been, always will be.
No Juzams – I’d replace big papi just because he costs 2BB, which is hefty in this list.

Maybe Duress isn’t spectacular in your metagame, but you say they allow proxies.  That means you get the same Flash, Oath, Tendrils, Control/Combo.dec that we have here, so I’d assume Duress lives up to its reputation there as well.  Also with Reavers and Negators, if there’s a lot of random aggro your Djinns may be the better play.  Although…if there’s a lot of random aggro you could probably run something tech like Royal Assassin, Sword of Fire/Ice, or Umezawa’s Jitte.  Hymns are really good at screwing random Combo decks, and it may also behoove you to add some kind of creature disruption like Smother, Darkblast, Ghastly Demise, Edict, whatever.

If you're bent on adding Goyfs or another color, I agree with the poster that mentioned adding red and Magus of the Moon.  Magus of the Moon is a complete hoser to a lot of decks, not to mention all of the wonderful sideboard options that red has to offer.  Hope this was helpful, good luck!

V/R
Masta

[BruiZar]

Fuck what ya heard, first turn Juzam still brings the pain, especially with some LD to stall you a turn or two

QFT

[reaperbong]

So here's what I'm running so far.

control -

4 Wasteland
4 Sinkhole
4 Duress
3 Nether Void
3 Crucible of Worlds
1 Strip Mine
1 Fastbond
1 Trinisphere
1 Crop Rotation
1 Zuron Orb
3 tutor- Demonic, Vampiric, and Imperial Seal
1 Yawgmoth's Will

beat -

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confident
3 Demigod of Revenge

mana -

4 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Dark Ritual
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring
3 Swamp

This deck is turning out to be really mean but still looking to make big improvements. I was playing it at the shop last week and it totally came out of leftfield and killed 2 Painter-grindstone decks, I was quite satisfied. I might play this at an upcoming Tourney but it needs to be more reliable if I will choose it over my lovely Dreadnoughts build. I will sideboard at least 4 Leyline, 4 Jailers and Maze of Ith if I do.

Can anyone help point out any obvious shortcomings? Should I include artifact hate? More lockdown/control/disruption perhaps? Are the aggro win conditions sufficient? Suggestions are most welcome.

[samurai_socks]

Deleted.

[reaperbong]

i like it overall. I'm glad to dig out some old Hyppies and Hyms but the kill condition aggro worries me here. Why bother with discard when for a Nether Void they can't cast anything no matter what's in their hand? Don't you think relying only on Hyppies and Goyfs for the kill is a little slow?

I'd like to run my 3 Nether Voids no matter what so perhaps i'm a bit collectors-biased just need to ask- did you forget or would you seriously not run the Void?

Also I've recently found the Demigod/Nether Voids synergy to be godly. turn 2 Nether Void is an easy drop and then the Demigod comes rolling in with Haste it's just perfect. Props to Harlequin for that suggestion.

[samurai_socks]

Deleted.