Chaos Vintage

[Shock Wave]

Here's a format I proposed to my local Vintage community that has raised enough interest for me to organize a small event:

100% Proxied Vintage
All decks and cards are supplied by the TO (proxies are colour print outs)

The twist: You don't choose your deck. You are randomly assigned a deck from a large pool of deckboxes, every deck being a viable Vintage archetype that has made a T8 appearance in an event of 20 or more players in the past year. Players are given 5 minutes after deck assignment to quickly acquaint themselves with the decklists, and then the round starts. At the end of the round, players put their decks back in the pool and are randomly assigned a deck at the beginning of the next round. At the end of the swiss, the T8 players are given 15 minutes to build a deck of their choice. If they cannot build a deck within 15 minutes, they will be assigned a random deck to play the current round. This would continue throughout the T8 rounds, including the finals.

Pros:

- This will create a truly diverse, interactive metagame. You won't see a field dominated by one deck, and boring mirror matches will be a rarity
- No need for expensive Vintage cards. Players will only need to pay an entry fee as opposed to trying to muster up enough cards to play a competitive archetype. This will help open up Vintage to new players
- Seasoned players will be challenged every round with a new puzzle and will have to adapt to new decisions they may not be accustomed to
- Players will be able to sharpen their skills by learning how different archetypes working, which will give them an advantage in standard Vintage events

Cons:

- People may feel bummed if they are assigned a deck they feel is less powerful than that of their opponent
- I'm sure there are more, but I can't think of them, so feel free to call me out here


If anyone likes this idea and has any suggestions/questions/comments, I'd be interested in hearing them.

[carlossb]

Why choosing at random?

Have you tried bidding for the decks (as in Invitationals)?

[Shock Wave]

Why choosing at random?

Have you tried bidding for the decks (as in Invitationals)?

The randomness ensures that players will have to get out of their comfort zone and try playing a deck that they're not accustomed to. The bidding system has been proposed, but this sort of system encourages players to just bid on decks that they typically play. Also, the randomness leverages the probability that the environment is diverse. We want to see different matchups every round, and players making different, difficult, and unfamiliar decisions as often as possible.

[Yare]

If the T8 players can build a deck of their choice, doesn't it just become normal Vintage again in that everybody will play the deck they would have brought had the event been a normal Vintage event? Or is the cardpool limited in some fashion?

[Shock Wave]

If the T8 players can build a deck of their choice, doesn't it just become normal Vintage again in that everybody will play the deck they would have brought had the event been a normal Vintage event? Or is the cardpool limited in some fashion?

No, because your deck will change going into the quarter finals and every round thereafter. Also, your opponent won't know what you're playing at the beginning of every round, which is hardly ever the case at the final tables of any format. I think that makes the tournament experience very different from regular events.

I will pose it to the community prior to the event, however. If they prefer it to be random the entire way through, I'll certainly change it. I'm just looking for ways to add an interesting twist to the environment that people will appreciate.

[Yare]

If the T8 players can build a deck of their choice, doesn't it just become normal Vintage again in that everybody will play the deck they would have brought had the event been a normal Vintage event? Or is the cardpool limited in some fashion?

No, because your deck will change going into the quarter finals and every round thereafter. Also, your opponent won't know what you're playing at the beginning of every round, which is hardly ever the case at the final tables of any format. I think that makes the tournament experience very different from regular events.

I will pose it to the community prior to the event, however. If they prefer it to be random the entire way through, I'll certainly change it. I'm just looking for ways to add an interesting twist to the environment that people will appreciate.

Oh, ok. I was under the impression that the players would get to keep what they build.  As a possible flaw, I would point out that potentially inferior players might intentionally build bad decks to give them a greater possibility of defeating especially superior opponents.  I mean, sure, the top 8 is supposed to be all about the best players at the event, but I feel like this extra twist of having the players build decks that other people might be using brings in all kinds of problems.  Perhaps voting for the decks that should make it into the round would be another way of doing it. Obviously, you're free to do what you want; just an idea (which I think is what you're looking for anyway).

[eightywpm]

I think all the decks would have to be made beforehand by the shop for this to work.  This takes out all the games of people bringing anything.  Does anybody want to play with my deck that makes use of 3 kjeldoran royal guard and 4 floating shield?  No?  Oh well.  I guess tendrils would have a field day.

I see your point though.  The format actually sound REALLY fun and I would love to participate in something like that.  If it was unlimited proxy and decks were built specifically for the tournament to be equally powered and the distribution was completely random, I think it would be fun.  If you are suggesting that players bring a proxied deck to the tournament to be added to a pool of decks, then you would have problems.

Anything to take away the high price of getting into the format and participating in events would have my thumbs up!

[Shock Wave]

I think all the decks would have to be made beforehand by the shop for this to work.  This takes out all the games of people bringing anything.  Does anybody want to play with my deck that makes use of 3 kjeldoran royal guard and 4 floating shield?  No?  Oh well.  I guess tendrils would have a field day.

This event is going to work exactly how you've suggested: The Shop/TO will be providing a pool of pre-built decks (25-30). Players will be randmly assigned decks at the beginning of each round. All decks will be exact copies of lists that have made T8 appearances in tournaments of 20 or more participants in the last 8-12 months.

I see your point though.  The format actually sound REALLY fun and I would love to participate in something like that.  If it was unlimited proxy and decks were built specifically for the tournament to be equally powered and the distribution was completely random, I think it would be fun.  If you are suggesting that players bring a proxied deck to the tournament to be added to a pool of decks, then you would have problems.

Anything to take away the high price of getting into the format and participating in events would have my thumbs up!

Thanks for the positive feedback. A lot of players are showing enthusiasm, so hopefully we get a good turnout and have something interesting to report.

Oh, ok. I was under the impression that the players would get to keep what they build.  As a possible flaw, I would point out that potentially inferior players might intentionally build bad decks to give them a greater possibility of defeating especially superior opponents.  I mean, sure, the top 8 is supposed to be all about the best players at the event, but I feel like this extra twist of having the players build decks that other people might be using brings in all kinds of problems.  Perhaps voting for the decks that should make it into the round would be another way of doing it. Obviously, you're free to do what you want; just an idea (which I think is what you're looking for anyway).

Yeah, it seems that there are always pros-cons to every idea. Right now, people are learning towards just having the event being random the whole way through. That is, event in the T8 rounds, you and your opponent will both be assigned a random deck. It's actually my preference to proceed this way, but I want the event to be as enjoyable as possible so I'm trying to get as much input as I can so that I don't miss out on some good ideas.

[T00L]

Team GGs + TPS and affiliates almost pulled this stunt off at a Waterbury once but decided against it at the last minute due to the logistics nightmare of everyone mixing hundreds of dollars of each others cards and not knowing who has what.

[Shock Wave]

Team GGs + TPS and affiliates almost pulled this stunt off at a Waterbury once but decided against it at the last minute due to the logistics nightmare of everyone mixing hundreds of dollars of each others cards and not knowing who has what.

Yeah, without proxies, I can see lots of problems arising. Building the gauntlet is going to take a lot of work but I think it'll be worth it in the end. It doesn't cost a lot to maintain, and it really reaches out to people who want to play Vintage but just don't have enough cards. I'm in the process of putting the final touches on preparation, so I think the first event should be good to go in a few weeks.

[Almighty]

This sounds like a ton of fun. I would happily support this kind of event any chance I had. Best of luck to you on this. I may even slowly start to work a 20 or so person gauntlet myself.

[LordHomerCat]

Team GGs + TPS and affiliates almost pulled this stunt off at a Waterbury once but decided against it at the last minute due to the logistics nightmare of everyone mixing hundreds of dollars of each others cards and not knowing who has what.

Yeah, without proxies, I can see lots of problems arising. Building the gauntlet is going to take a lot of work but I think it'll be worth it in the end. It doesn't cost a lot to maintain, and it really reaches out to people who want to play Vintage but just don't have enough cards. I'm in the process of putting the final touches on preparation, so I think the first event should be good to go in a few weeks.

This tournament sounds incredible by the way, and would be so much fun its ridiculous.

As an idea for top 8, I thought maybe you could give people a small choice.  If you have 24 decks, give each top8 player 3 decks and random and let them pick the one they want to play, so that I don't like make top8 and then get to play UW fish against GroATog or soemthing.  In the swiss its not a big deal as you are unlikely to get more than one matchup that gets you blown out, but in the top8 you only get one loss so it might be better for the players to have a choice between 2 or 3 decks (which are randomly given to them) so that they can at least have some competence going into the elimination rounds.

[Cardboard Jesus]

This format sounds like an awesome idea. I've thought of something like this before, but have never tried it. If you do indeed end up running this tourney, make sure to do a write-up afterward. I'd look forward to reading it.

[goobafish]

It is taking place on Friday. It should be a ton of fun.

[Shock Wave]

As an idea for top 8, I thought maybe you could give people a small choice.  If you have 24 decks, give each top8 player 3 decks and random and let them pick the one they want to play, so that I don't like make top8 and then get to play UW fish against GroATog or soemthing.  In the swiss its not a big deal as you are unlikely to get more than one matchup that gets you blown out, but in the top8 you only get one loss so it might be better for the players to have a choice between 2 or 3 decks (which are randomly given to them) so that they can at least have some competence going into the elimination rounds.

That's an excellent suggestion. The first event will be this Friday night and I will run this idea by the participants to see if they agree. It sounds very fair to me and I think it will provide for a very fair and interactive T8. Thanks for the feedback!

[Wagner]

I had a very similar idea a couple of years ago, which ended up being to much trouble making all proxies for anyone to take care of it.

That said, mine had a little difference. Instead of going at random I tought about doing an auction for every deck. Some may start a little higher than other. The idea was that a less popular deck (Fish, TMWA) would cost less to play than Oath or GAT. I realize that this method isn't practical for tournaments with more than a dozen of players since the auction could take some time.

Just pitching another idea out there.

Don't forget to keep us informed on the outcome of the tournament.

[Shock Wave]

I had a very similar idea a couple of years ago, which ended up being to much trouble making all proxies for anyone to take care of it.

That said, mine had a little difference. Instead of going at random I tought about doing an auction for every deck. Some may start a little higher than other. The idea was that a less popular deck (Fish, TMWA) would cost less to play than Oath or GAT. I realize that this method isn't practical for tournaments with more than a dozen of players since the auction could take some time.

Just pitching another idea out there.

Don't forget to keep us informed on the outcome of the tournament.

Well, if you had actually tried to make the proxies, you would have discovered that you were very right about how big of a pain in the ass it is. I am in the process of building 26 different decks. That required printing 210 pages with 9 cards per page. It takes roughly 6 minutes to properly cut out each page without botching the proxies. I've calculated that by the end of the deck building, I will have spent in the neighbourhood of 30 hours building the gauntlet. I think it will be worth it though. There has been quite a bit of interest and I'm hoping new players will participate since the investment will be small.

Regarding the auction, this idea was considered but I decided to drop it since I want players to be forced to learn to play new decks. The more freedom you're given with choice, the more this starts to resemble a regular Vintage event. I think I will go with LordHomerCat's suggestion of allowing the T8 players to choose between 3 randomly assigned decks. That will be a small privilege given to the players for making the final tables.

Oh, by the way, this isn't going to be a one-time tournament. This is going to be a Friday night Vintage league, with prizes and possibly an invitational at the end, similar to the league in Quebec.

[JACO]

Rich, this sounds incredible. Remind me to come visit you on a weekend that you are doing this. ; ) Here are a couple of comments for you, based on the discussion above.

Why choosing at random? Have you tried bidding for the decks (as in Invitationals)?

Now THIS sounds like the absolute bomb. Each player can look at the lists, then bid with cards in starting hand each game, and life, until no one wants to outbid anyone. This would make it even more skill intensive, and would remove part of the randomness from the game. The downsides would be that it wouldn't force people to play with different decks each round. Perhaps this would be better off as its own tournament format (a VINTAGE INVITATIONAL type format).

All decks will be exact copies of lists that have made T8 appearances in tournaments of 20 or more participants in the last 8-12 months.

The only issue I see with this is the fact that people generally tailor their sideboards to their specific metagame they are expecting, which can greatly vary over 12 months. So someone could have a great Mana Drain based deck that would get absolutely demolished by Flash or Dredge, simply because they built their sideboard for a tournament where they didn't expect to need graveyard hate. Examples like that could be an issue, which could kind of be alleviated if players were allowed to bid on the decks as mentioned above (because they would get to take a really strong or weak sideboard into consideration).

[Shock Wave]

Rich, this sounds incredible. Remind me to come visit you on a weekend that you are doing this. ; ) Here are a couple of comments for you, based on the discussion above.

Why choosing at random? Have you tried bidding for the decks (as in Invitationals)?

Now THIS sounds like the absolute bomb. Each player can look at the lists, then bid with cards in starting hand each game, and life, until no one wants to outbid anyone. This would make it even more skill intensive, and would remove part of the randomness from the game. The downsides would be that it wouldn't force people to play with different decks each round. Perhaps this would be better off as its own tournament format (a VINTAGE INVITATIONAL type format).

All decks will be exact copies of lists that have made T8 appearances in tournaments of 20 or more participants in the last 8-12 months.

The only issue I see with this is the fact that people generally tailor their sideboards to their specific metagame they are expecting, which can greatly vary over 12 months. So someone could have a great Mana Drain based deck that would get absolutely demolished by Flash or Dredge, simply because they built their sideboard for a tournament where they didn't expect to need graveyard hate. Examples like that could be an issue, which could kind of be alleviated if players were allowed to bid on the decks as mentioned above (because they would get to take a really strong or weak sideboard into consideration).

Thanks for the feedback J. I agree that 12 months might make the sideboards obsolete, so I only picked decks from January '08 onwards. That will make them at least slightly more tapered for the current metagame. Decks will be rotated in and out regularly to keep things reflecting the current meta as closely as possible.

As for the bidding, I think you're right that it deserves its own format. It's something I would consider if the chaos angle doesn't pan out as planned.

[zeus-online]

About bidding:
Bidding with life seems kinda stupid though, if i want to play flash, why not just bid say 15 life or something?...

That might make sligh good though...hmmm

Anyways, Chaos Vintage sounds fun, a shame that i live across the ocean.

Good luck with it though.

/Zeus

[goobafish]

It was an awesome event. We got 3 more weeks with this gauntlet before the B and R takes over.