The Richmond Thread

[T00L]

This just in: Gush + Fastbond = synergy!

OMG why would you post such secret tech on the intarwebs?!?!?! :O

[forests failed you]

I started out 1-2 on day one and actually did drop from the tournament.  

However, I got paired for round four in spite of clearly marking the drop box on my match slip.  Somebody else told me after the round had already started that I was paired in round four, so I decided to play just for the heck of it.  When I got to my seat I was a minute late and the judge awarded me a game loss for tardiness.  

I argued that since I had dropped from the tournament it was unfair to penalize me for being late to my seat, since I didn't actually know that I was supposed to go up and look at the pairings and find a seat in the first place.  The judge did not agree with me and said that the penalty for being late was a game loss, and added that it shouldn't even matter since I had wanted to drop from the tournament in the first place; to which I argued that the fact I had wanted to drop was now pointless since I wasn't dropped from the tournament.  I appealed his decision to the head judge.   After FIFTEEN MINUTES of debating between the judge (I think they searched throuh all of the match slips to make sure I was telling the truth about dropping), the head judge apologized to me for not dropping me from the event and overruled the game loss.

I then went on to win my next 5 rounds in a row and get 12th, and won a playset of Plateau!!!  So I dropped in round three and ended up getting 12th with Oath.  

Day two I just played the Tyrant Oath deck that I played on day one--except I cut all of the Oath stuff out and replaced it with "better cards."  I wasn't pleased with having the Oath combo in my deck and won the vast majority of my games on day one with either my sideboard Tendrils or by hardcasting the Tyrant while I was Yawgmoth's Willing.  So, I just replaced the Oath stuff with cards that either made the Gushbond combo more explosive/powerful: Tendrils, Empty, Desire, High Tide, or, with cards that were simply really powerful and versitile in their own rite:  Dark Confidant, Sensei's Top, Mana Drain, Library et cetera.

It was a great weekend and it was wonderful to see everybody once again.  I can't wait until Gencon!  

[Sextiger]

This tournament was really inspiring for me.  On both days the top eight was loaded with extremely solid players, and the top of the field was incredibly diverse.  On day two as an example, we had

Ichorid
GAT
Oath
Painter
Flash
2x Gush Combo
MUD

Sure, this top eight had 20 Gushes, but it also had 24 Brainstorms and 24 Force of Wills.

I made a controversial statement in the car on the ride home, that the best card in the format wasn't Ancestral Recall or Yawgmoth's Will but Fastbond.  I can react to my opponent having Ancestral or Will in his hand, but if he has Fastbond and I can't win a turn 0 counterwar, my chances to win are incredibly small regardless of what I'm playing.

I think the format is actually fairly healthy right now.  However, I do think Fastbond lends itself to making the format less healthy than it could be.

I feel the same way about Fastbond, the card is just way too good.  Surprisingly, back in that open thread where people were discussing the card they hated playing against it, it seemed not too many people mentioned fastbond, hopefully the opinion of that has changed. 

Edit: Whoa, game loss for one minute tardiness? You sure it was a minute? I've had to wait sometimes like 4-5 minutes for opponents to show up at Waterbury tourneys and I couldn't even manage a game loss from the judges. 

[coyoteuglly]

This tournament was really inspiring for me.  On both days the top eight was loaded with extremely solid players, and the top of the field was incredibly diverse.  On day two as an example, we had

Ichorid
GAT
Oath
Painter
Flash
2x Gush Combo
MUD

Sure, this top eight had 20 Gushes, but it also had 24 Brainstorms and 24 Force of Wills.

I made a controversial statement in the car on the ride home, that the best card in the format wasn't Ancestral Recall or Yawgmoth's Will but Fastbond.  I can react to my opponent having Ancestral or Will in his hand, but if he has Fastbond and I can't win a turn 0 counterwar, my chances to win are incredibly small regardless of what I'm playing.

I think the format is actually fairly healthy right now.  However, I do think Fastbond lends itself to making the format less healthy than it could be.

Ummm, I seem to remember the format being pretty healthy before they unrestricted Gush.

And if they restrict Force of Will... I quit.

[offthewallgames]

I had a great time at the event (which was my first type I).  I placed 23rd day 1 and 12th day 2.  I will definitely make the trip down again.  I do agree about fast bond.  without it gush and will both would not be nearly as strong. 
 

[NicolaeAlmighty]

Yeah... GL with that. FB isn't going anywhere... It's restricted. The only way it'll ever be banned is if they errata it to include the word ANTE somewhere. Otherwise, there are bigger fish to fry and even then they won't be touched either. It's been punished as much as the DCI cares to do via restriction.

I love it when people rant about a healthy format. Hmm... Do I play a Gush based deck or a deck that can hope to win faster? Or maybe I'll try to hate it out... Oh. Damn. Looks like I just lost to Flash. I'll look at that quote from Kowal...

Ichorid
GAT
Oath
Painter
Flash
2x Gush Combo
Mud

Hmm. Let's try that again...

Ichorid
Flash
Mud
5x Gushbond based decks

There. That looks a bit more accurate. Yeah, I know. They're all SUPER different decks with SUPER different kill conditions that try SUPER hard to be unique... Right. This format isn't diverse. Changing the kill condition does not hide the fact that the engine MUST be used to compete. Or, as I said, the deck must be able to win quicker through hate.

Do I think anything needs to be done about Flash? No. They kill flash and we're down to Gush, Ichorid, and Stax as viable options.

I guess I'll get back "on topic" as to not piss off the mods... Props to Dustin Buckingham for taking Dark Illusions that far (and giving it the correct European name... not that that really matters though). Also, grats to Brian Demars for making the closest thing to innovation in this warped format... Or at least making something as random as that Fastbond/ Crucible/ Zorb/ Burning Wish/ Time Stretch/ etc etc crazy deck a couple years back. This deck kinda reminds me of it... If one plan doesn't work, there are so many more.

[Troy_Costisick]

Hmm. Let's try that again...

Ichorid
Flash
Mud
5x Gushbond based decks

Let's refine that a little bit more:

Ichorid
Mud
6x Brainstorm/Force of Will/Mystical Tutor decks


I believe this tournament showcased the brilliant creativity of the deck designers.  To take a basic line of cards and develop four or five viable win strategies from it is really incredible.  I really enjoyed reading the decklists and tournement reports.  I look forward to even more first hand accounts.

Peace,

-Troy

[NicolaeAlmighty]

I believe this tournament showcased the brilliant creativity of the deck designers.  To take a basic line of cards and develop four or five viable win strategies from it is really incredible.  I really enjoyed reading the decklists and tournement reports.  I look forward to even more first hand accounts.

Yeah... Shockingly, I can't say I agree with that. Creativity is a bit impossible these days. Rotating kill conditions really doesn't strike me as creative. Whats the most innovative list that has been seen lately? Mono blue remora? Probably... He took an idea that lacked Gushbond, Bazaars, and Hulks and ran with it. It wasn't bad at all... Sadly though, was overpowered by the cards he opted to avoid (not speaking on his behalf, just speculating). The sad thing is that these are monstrous obstacles for any deck developer... And here's the third finger- there isn't a way around them. You're faced with a choice. Play the powerful engine, play faster than the powerful engine, or prepare for a disappointing day (assuming you wanted to accomplish something other than diverse playtesting).

... I really feel like I should end this with "and that's what really grinds my gears."

[Harlequin]

Round Three:  Jeremiah Rudolph with some pile that looks like Workshop Slaver had sex with a Type Four stack
Game one I fantasize about Mana Draining Panoptic Mirror while I outdraw him 2:1 with Gush.
Game two I pick his hand apart, Extirpate his red blasts, and red blast his Tinker.  Oath goes the distance.

Quoted for Truth, and because it made me laugh.  But for all you NE peeps... consider yourself warned about our new tech!

[Hatchman]

sounds to me like your just taking Travis' place and playing cool cards.

[Smmenen]

Round Four:  Stephen Menendian with GAT
Game one he duresses me and I have a pretty weak hand.  I try to recover with a desperate tutor for Ancestral but he has the Misdirection.  I do randomly find an Oath and get it to stick, which takes him like 20 turns to answer.  Unfortunately I draw nothing in those twenty turns and he draws some pretty good shit, so all I can do is wait and hope he bones himself on Fastbond.  He gets himself to 1, Empties, and passes the turn tapped out.  I don't win on my turn.

Not exactly.

My turn one Duress takes Force because I anticipate you mysticalling into recall into my Misd.  Otherwise I would have left you with Walk and Force.   

The problem is that the one card you topdecked that I hadn’t seen happened to be Oath.  I knew the rest of your hand.  After I Misd your Acall, I draw my own and resolve it which gives me the tools to try and race your ability to find the Orchard.   

I have Yawgmoth’s Will in hand or access to it, but the fundamental problem is that I am not sure I can actually pull off the win.   The reason is that I pitched Echoing Truth to my Misdirection, which means not only do I have to get insane card advantage, I actually have to actually kill you before I can pass the turn.  And since all of my win conditions are creatures, I have to actually create a lethal Empty the Warrens AND Time Walk, basically, or else risk losing.

Thus, rather than go off despite having Fastbond and Yawgmoth’s Will, I decide to wait to try and develop my board state a few more turns.   I pass the turn, you draw a card and pass.  I duress it and see Island.   I pass the turn again, you draw and pass, and I thoughseize you and see Tidespout Tyrant.   One or two more turns elapsed and there was only one card in your hand I hadn’t seen and I decided to go for it.   At that point, I played Will and went off, but despite drawing a ton of cards I couldn’t find either Empty or Time Walk.   I had to Scroll for Mystical to find the Empty and then I had just enough mana, at 1 life, to play it.   I knew you’d Oath, but I also figured you probably wouldn’t be able to just kill me there.   So you Oathed, got your Tyrant, and I won.

My basic point is that there wasn’t really a window of opportunity for you to come back into the game.  I was Duressing you almost every turn in between and I think I may have even Forced a Brainstorm so that you couldn’t find an Orchard.   The only chance you really had was to like topdeck Will or Krosan Rec Will and Acall or something like that so that you could find a way to deck me first.   It wasn’t totally out of the realm of possibility, it was just unlikely at that point.   Had I gotten a little bit luckier, however, I could have Walked after ETW and just won without having to give you a turn.  Of course, it’s possible that I could have tried to play it a little bit differently and I could have gotten what I needed.

It wasn't that it took me a while to answer that stuff, as you suggest, or that a lot of turns passed between us.  I had the answers already - I was just waiting to use them.   It was also that you were in topdeck mode, so I had some time, and I had duresses to keep your hand empty in case you did draw something useful before I Willed.   

Post board, I had Seals just in case you did draw an Oath. 

FYI, here is my decklist: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=24891

Incidentally, despite playing at many of the same tournaments over the years, I think this was the first time we faced off!

[vartemis]

I saw that too.  Grindstones are up to $20.  My guess is Legacy is contributing to the demand too...hard to believe Vintage would do that alone.

Congrats to the winners, and kudos to SCG for supporting our format with unbelievable payouts.   Special congrats to Alex Bertoncini who pulls in $7000 for winning both Standard tournaments.  Wow.

I have noticed this cycle with all of SCG's tournaments and the impact on their singles sales.  Their tournaments are excellent business investments.  Although they may lose money money on the prizes they give out, they make a killing on creating a hype on certain decks and adjusting their prices accordingly.  MSPaint busts out at this tournament, and the Servants and Grindstones are jacked up.  Even ebay hasn't adjusted yet.

j

Spoke too soon.  Servants are now $10.  What do you think they will peak at, and are they really $10 cards?

j

[pierce]

@ smemmen--is that game you mentioned one where you did or did not take turn by turn notes? if not, consider it proof that your ability for specificity has reached a new level--where you don't even need to consider bringing the pad of paper to your rounds in order to accurately describe each round to your paying article readers.


@Jew lightning --the tournament itself was a lot of fun--even though it’s a heinous blur in my memory full of sleepless nights and clouds of smoke . . . . And I still cannot recall several periods of time during the days I spent in Richmond . . . bad mulligan choices and savage top decks from my opponents stunted your prediction for my performance day one, and day two I rolled dice with ichorid--mulligan ing to one in at least five games trying to find that baazar. Slops to me for being the only one in your post you claimed to top eight, who didn’t.

It was cool, however, to put names to faces.  Though several of those faces I was a complete douche towards, due to the above frustration.

Gratz to all who top 8ed, and I’ll see all you guys again come gencon.

[Seismic Assault]

@Kowal

I was your opponent (Justin Morford) playing GAT.  You top decked like an absolute mad man in our match, I mean seriously, who does that!?!?! (at one point it was Gush into A.Call, Yawg Will) 

At any rate, there's no point in being angry about it.  Just wish my deck would've coughed up more than 2 Duress effects (I was packing 8) in 2 games. 

Becker managed to flop the nuts against me on Day 2 (T-1 killed me through what would've been a monster of a hand, minus Duress yet again, were they just avoiding me?).

Despite my opponents flopping the nuts from time to time, it was fun.   

 

[RatNinjaPirateSamurai]

Day 1 I go 4-2-1 and get 20th, playing fairly awfully along the way.

Day 2 I go 0-3 and we go home. Note that in my first match of the day I lost games 1 and 3 basically after turn 1 Duressing my opponent and having them rip Ancestral while I have no pitch magic. Fairly bad beats. Good times though.

[Zieby]

Note that in my first match of the day I lost games 1 and 3 basically after turn 1 Duressing my opponent and having them rip Ancestral while I have no pitch magic. Fairly bad beats. Good times though.

And thats excatly the reasson that i think 8 duress effects is way to much for a deck.

[RatNinjaPirateSamurai]

For what it's worth, I still ran 6 pitch spells, in addition to 7 Duresses.

[Kelme]

@ Smemmen. I like the 3x Islands in the sideboard. I suppose that the 8 duress-effects was a meta call, and therefore not something you'd run in all instances?

@Forests_failed_you. Awesome report and decklist. I did move 1xduress to sb for 1x misdirection since i wanted more pitch counters and the occasionaly stealing of a recall.

[forests failed you]

The Duress was awesome all day long.  Honestly, I would just cut the Empty the Warrens and add the Misdirection.  I can't even recall an instance where I cast Empty the Warrens in a game during day two.

[Kelme]

@Forests_failed_you:

Daunting. I like it:D

Seriously, I think your list is one of the best gush-bond lists out there at the moment. Are there anything you'd change after this tournament?

[Smmenen]

@ Smemmen. I like the 3x Islands in the sideboard. I suppose that the 8 duress-effects was a meta call, and therefore not something you'd run in all instances?

Not at all.  I would have run 10-11 Duress effects if I could have.   They were amazing.  The only time they are not good is versus Shops, and not all of them are good against Ichorid (but, honestly, how effective is Force of Will against Ichorid either?).  And since Shops are now such a small part of the metagame due to the Servant, Oath, and Flash elements, Duresses are amazing.   They are particularly amazing in Grow. 

EDIT: 

Not to question the intelligence of some posters, but how is it exactly that 8 duresses is alot?   8 Duresses is roughly 1 every 7.5 cards.  In other words, it's barely one per opening hand on average.   If you want a Duress/ Thoughseize in an opening hand, then of course you run the max you can run.   And unlike Force of Will, a second Duress is closer in value to the first.   Since Force requires a blue spell to pitch, it has higher diminishing returns, unlike Duress.

In my games, testing, and tournament matches, I could rarely draw enough Duress despite having 8.   Needs more Duress.  Needs more Cowbell. 

[M.Solymossy]

8 duress right now seems like a calculated risk.   In my testing, and I'm sure most other people are getting the same result, a couple interesting things happen:

Painter absolutely wrecks oath.
Oath absolutely wrecks Shops
Shops absolutely wreck painter.

Painter is big, which is in theory keeping oath down to a low, and with oath down to a low, Shops will/should pick up in popularity.   8 Duress force you to fetch out nonbasics to use, which are big targets for wastelands.  With only 14-15 lands in gush builds, it's a very big risk. 

But obviously, as Steve is not lacking in the intelligence dept., I'm sure it was a calcculated risk.

[Smmenen]

8 duress right now seems like a calculated risk.   In my testing, and I'm sure most other people are getting the same result, a couple interesting things happen:

Painter absolutely wrecks oath.
Oath absolutely wrecks Shops
Shops absolutely wreck painter.

Painter is big, which is in theory keeping oath down to a low, and with oath down to a low, Shops will/should pick up in popularity.   8 Duress force you to fetch out nonbasics to use, which are big targets for wastelands.  With only 14-15 lands in gush builds, it's a very big risk. 

But obviously, as Steve is not lacking in the intelligence dept., I'm sure it was a calcculated risk.

Shops wreck painter?   I am not at all so sure that's true.   The painter deck that made top 8 day two beat a Shop deck in the top 8.   Talking with some shop players, they suggest that the painter deck has a favorable matchup.

Even if Shop decks beat painter, shops are a fairly small part of the metagame.   It's not just a painter/oath/shop metagame, there is also nontrivial amounts of flash, which is a shop nightmare.  A flash deck made top 8 both days at SCG Richmond.

I essentially assume that I'm going to lose game one with GAT against a Shop deck, and then board out most of the duresses for bounce and land. 

[T00L]

Traditional staxless stax is a pretty favorable match up for painter. The MUD deck Jerry Yang was playing in the top 8 of day 2 is a different story because he can very easily get metalworker online before i get drains active which is a huge problem for painter. Also while I defeated Jerry Yang in top 8 he was my only lose in the swiss.

[Troy_Costisick]

Shops wreck painter?   I am not at all so sure that's true.   The painter deck that made top 8 day two beat a Shop deck in the top 8.   Talking with some shop players, they suggest that the painter deck has a favorable matchup.

There were 2 painter decks on day two, weren't there?  One Gush-based, one Shop-based?

Peace,

-Troy

[Smmenen]

That's true - Jerry's deck had the Painter combo, as well as Staff combo, but he and Mark both told me on the ride home that Painter decks beat shops.

[M.Solymossy]

It really depends on the list.  I was playing against a Mud deck with smokestacks, chalices, 9 spheres, and 5 wastes.    It's the list I think is most potent and it wrecked both painter lists.  Sure I still won a bunch of games from just absolutely smashing them on turn 1 or 2 with ridiculous cards, but overall chalice @ 1 absolutely destroyed me.