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Author Topic: 2008 Vintage Championships in Chicago? on 8/2  (Read 3377 times)
aosquirrels
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« on: May 19, 2008, 08:02:39 pm »

MODS...sorry if this post is in the wrong forum.

I was just looking on the Wizards site and discovered that the 2008 Vintage Championships are being held on 8/2 in Chicago and not at GenCon.  Anyone know why this is? 

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« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2008, 08:09:01 pm »

That is freaking crazy.  The legacy championship is at Gencon! 

Well, I guess I won't be going to Gencon (to defend my title). 
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« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2008, 08:10:03 pm »

And I was looking forward to attending my first Gencon....
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« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2008, 08:20:44 pm »

MODS...sorry if this post is in the wrong forum.

I was just looking on the Wizards site and discovered that the 2008 Vintage Championships are being held on 8/2 in Chicago and not at GenCon.  Anyone know why this is? 



Seems like they want to hold them at US nationals and not some random game convention.
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« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2008, 09:10:51 pm »

This is very upsetting as I was in the middle of planning my trip to Gencon.
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« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2008, 09:18:51 pm »

Well this news is depressing.. I was planing on going to gencon to play in the vintage champs, and now this interferes with my beer fest plans
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« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2008, 09:46:58 pm »

Wow. I'm flabbergasted. I'm not American. I was planning on going to Gencon. I'm not planning on attending a foreign Nationals to play the Vintage World Championship that's being held as a side event. Does Wizard's honestly expect the 120-130 fully powered vintage players to divert from Gencon to US Nationals this year for some reason? Not to mention the overlap between many vintage players and the Nationals event as well. Is it unreasonable to predict maybe half the number to play in this event at best now?? Am I off-base to suggest that this will kill the Vintage World Champs?

As for the random game convention remark, it's been held there how many years in a row? Does it sound random now? How about making the champs into a sideshow and not a main event as benefiting a World Championship in that format? I consider this more than a light slap in the face of vintage.
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Smmenen
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« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2008, 10:10:53 pm »

After thinking about it, the decision makes more sense.   Since US Nats is in the midwest this year, with Chicago not being terribly far from Indianapolis, it does make some sense to move the Vintage champs to the other event.
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goobafish
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« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2008, 10:12:39 pm »

This means that our group might not come down. Before we got to do Legacy and Vintage, and now it is one or the other, or two trips.
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« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2008, 10:15:57 pm »

Note, Wizard's Legacy webpage is still 2007, so maybe the 2008 Legacy Champs are in Chicago too as the bottom of the Vintage page indicates a Saturday Legacy tournament with 30/10 dual land split similar to 2006.  Or, maybe Wizards is giving up on an official Legacy Champs given it gets larger attendances at Grand Prixes.
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« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2008, 10:19:59 pm »

After thinking about it, the decision makes more sense.   Since US Nats is in the midwest this year, with Chicago not being terribly far from Indianapolis, it does make some sense to move the Vintage champs to the other event.

Yeah, it does make more sense...in the manner that it's more likely to be the US Vintage Championship as there's unlikely to be much of a non-US contingent. I'm sure the title "World Champ" will mean as much as the Boston Red Sox claiming they are the baseball "World Champs", or the Spurs claiming they are the basketball "World Champs".
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« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2008, 11:14:13 pm »

I made a quick glance of the site but was unable to find the source for this info. Link?
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M.Solymossy
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« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2008, 11:20:43 pm »

SOURCE

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=events/magic/vintagechamps
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« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2008, 11:33:48 pm »

Wow. I'm flabbergasted. I'm not American. I was planning on going to Gencon. I'm not planning on attending a foreign Nationals to play the Vintage World Championship that's being held as a side event.

I don't see the difference regarding location to be more or less attractive between US nationals 2008 and 'Generic gaming convention 2003/4-2007'; it's still equivalent to "Type-1-tournament-with-a-meaningless-name-and-nonexistant-prize-support-past-1st-place-held-in-the-United-States".

Quote
Does Wizard's honestly expect the 120-130 fully powered vintage players to divert from Gencon to US Nationals this year for some reason?

In a word, yes.

Quote
Not to mention the overlap between many vintage players and the Nationals event as well.

This is actually a reasonable point.

Quote
Is it unreasonable to predict maybe half the number to play in this event at best now?? Am I off-base to suggest that this will kill the Vintage World Champs?As for the random game convention remark, it's been held there how many years in a row? Does it sound random now? How about making the champs into a sideshow and not a main event as benefiting a World Championship in that format? I consider this more than a light slap in the face of vintage.

That particular tournament has been held there for 4-5 years; one of the two which isn't too relevant. 'Random', in the context that I used it, meant that WOTC picked a venue which attracted people who would be interested in playing at the event. Now, I would assume that WOTC has re-evaluated their decision on the location of their 'type-1 tournament' and changed it to a location that has higher EV for turnout; an event which is purely dedicated to magic as opposed to some gaming circus encompasing anything and everything that uses dice and cardboard.


In reality, the 'Vintage World Champs' is just another tournament. It has terrible prize support which is the reason why there are never people from outside of the US and its local Canadian provinces playing in it. I'm sure the majority of people who play type 1 in other countries will agree with me when I say that the "Vintage World Championship" is just another tournament which has been poorly named. If I were to hold a type 1 tournament in Antartica and call it the world championship, what would people think? They'd think it's a joke, which is exactly the situation right now. In all fairness, the big type 1 tournaments in Europe have more right to be called "Vintage World CHampionship" because they are bigger and a much better prize support.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2008, 11:56:57 pm by Webster » Logged

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« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2008, 11:55:45 pm »

I fully approve of this.  It's a long weekend of Vintage without the $80 cover charge that GenCon requires.
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« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2008, 12:27:44 am »

This is absolutely crazy.  Everyone was planning on attending Gencon for this, but holding it at the same time as the Type 2 Nationals?  Does this means it will be travelling around each year just like the Type 2 Nationals will be?

I am hoping I can find a few cards & get up there to play in this, but who knows.  Also, how will this affect people who were contemplating holding a Double P9 day in Chicago?  How many people are willing to make 2 or 3 trips to Chicago to play Magic?
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« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2008, 12:44:49 am »

What an odd turn of events...

What is WOTC's primary motivation for moving this event?  I'm sure we will hear soon enough.  Until then, speculation is certainly captivating, as well as forecasting the effects.
I doubt GenCon would have asked Wizards for this.  I don't think 150 Vintage players attending other events affects their bottom line.  As far as an overlap between Nationals and the Vintage and Legacy Communities, I doubt 10% of Vintage players would compete in Nationals and maybe 25% at most of Legacy.  If I am way off on these guestimates, feel free to correct.

Personally, this date change makes attendance possible, whereas GenCon was not this year.  Paying $15 instead of $80 or whatever is also nice.

If Star City Games stepped in to sponsor and increase the prize support, this would turn into a very heavily attended event.

 
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« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2008, 01:11:44 am »

BUT SCG doesn't gain anything from that.  Pastimes in Chicago are the ones that hold the event, and they pay for the painting as well as judging staff.  I

I'm betting 1 of 2 things.

Wizards doesn't want this because of Gencon's Bankrupcy.

Pastimes ducked out of Gencon due to holding Nationals.
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« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2008, 02:19:35 am »

If Star City Games stepped in to sponsor and increase the prize support, this would turn into a very heavily attended event.

Considering SCG Events are also 10 proxy, this would be a complete 180 from where they are at.  Also, as prizes is the painting & "Vintage Boosters" (Whatever they are.  Anybody know?).  I think it is definitely an event you go to win for the prestige, not the prize.  Though don't get me wrong.  a Custon artwork painting is really really cool.
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« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2008, 02:26:28 am »

Did I read this right, or am I going to have to choose between Nats and my first shot at vintage worlds.

This sucks!

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« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2008, 03:02:39 am »

The more I think about this the better it is.

I fucking love Chicago. Huge bonus. Now that I won't be worrying about Gencon and it's awsomeness, I will get to go to a Cubs game, and kick it with family and friends.

Also, this will be a super bad ass road trip, with all the Denver Vintage players going for Vintage, and the Nats peeps going for Nats. Everybody gets something.

I think this might be the biggest Vintage Champs to date.

And not having to pay $80 for entry is definitely the nut high.
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« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2008, 03:11:59 am »

I hope that Wizards reconsiders. To travel for an entire convention is worthwhile. To travel for just a tournament with almost nothing given in prizes beyond first is unlikely to be worthwhile. And the fact that this is at the same time as US Nationals further means that this isn't a good thing at all.
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« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2008, 04:32:32 am »

As for Prize support:
Prizes:
    * The winner receives an alternative art framed Mox Ruby trophy!
    * Top finishers win Vintage Boosters

Are these Boosters Italian Legends or Alpha/Beta heat? Does anyone know?

On a personal note I have never attended a Gencon and was locked in to go with Snoop Trogg and Yangtime. They said the Gencon experience was great and that the convention was filled with artists and other various game designers in which you could just approach on a personal level. I think that would be amazing. Oh well, I guess I am going to once again miss out on the awesomeness that was Gencon. We also have to adjust are hotel accommodations and everything that were already planned. Shipoopi!

I'll probably still attend this thing an act a phoo!

 
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« Reply #23 on: May 20, 2008, 07:30:55 am »

It has terrible prize support which is the reason why there are never people from outside of the US and its local Canadian provinces playing in it.

This is untrue.   In 2006, Wizards held European qualifier tournaments and flew out lots of European players, including a player from Spain, France, Italy, etc.   There are always a handful of Europeans who show up.   Last year they didn't hold the qualifiers or, if they did, they didn't foot the bill for the European local state Vintage champ winners as they did in the past. 
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« Reply #24 on: May 20, 2008, 10:07:25 am »

For me, this change of venue is quite dissappointing.  The combination of the GenCon experience and Vintage Worlds was awesome.  I can't justify the time and expense of participating in a large vintage tournament that I have no realistic chance of winning.  I also can't justify the time and expense of going to a four day convention and not participate in a large vintage tournament.  For me, the two combined made for four really cool days.  I'm just glad I didn't book a flight and a hotel already.  In short....count me out!
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« Reply #25 on: May 20, 2008, 10:27:54 am »

Gencon was always a waste of money.  80 dollars plus hundreds for a hotel since it's way in the city, and the fact that Magic is the only game I play, and it leads to a terrible time.   Now, I can drive down saturday morning, play in worlds, and drive back and only miss one day of work.   Plus, the whole environment will be tons different.  Count me in!

Now I just need to pick up some power again.
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« Reply #26 on: May 20, 2008, 10:53:09 am »

Quote
In reality, the 'Vintage World Champs' is just another tournament. It has terrible prize support which is the reason why there are never people from outside of the US and its local Canadian provinces playing in it. I'm sure the majority of people who play type 1 in other countries will agree with me when I say that the "Vintage World Championship" is just another tournament which has been poorly named. If I were to hold a type 1 tournament in Antartica and call it the world championship, what would people think? They'd think it's a joke, which is exactly the situation right now. In all fairness, the big type 1 tournaments in Europe have more right to be called "Vintage World CHampionship" because they are bigger and a much better prize support.

I can only speak for myself and I also think that WotC should not name it World Championship as we have a lot of good Vintage players in Europe which cannot attend the tournament because of the traveling expenses. Even if a handful of italian or spanish players are "crazy enough" to attend, the tournament, the winner should not be called "World Champion" as they will not be able to influence the metagame and the result in a significant manner.

Do you think the chance that a US player will be the next "Vintage World Champion" is the same if the tournament would be in Europe?

WotC should find a more suitable name for this tournament like US-Nationals which can be an open tournament, like in Europe.

I donīt want to offend someone with this statement but this is just my opinion of fairness.
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« Reply #27 on: May 20, 2008, 11:19:29 am »

As for Prize support:
Prizes:
    * The winner receives an alternative art framed Mox Ruby trophy!
    * Top finishers win Vintage Boosters

Are these Boosters Italian Legends or Alpha/Beta heat? Does anyone know?

I've always received Italian Legends booster packs, which for the record, are terrible. Anyone who wins them would get more out of hocking them for $10 each to a dealer after trying 20 minutes to convince them to buy them rather than you actually opening them.

Did I read this right, or am I going to have to choose between Nats and my first shot at vintage worlds.

Yea, I know the feeling  Sad. I'm not even sure I'm going at all. I'll need to look at the payout for nationals.

It has terrible prize support which is the reason why there are never people from outside of the US and its local Canadian provinces playing in it.

This is untrue.   In 2006, Wizards held European qualifier tournaments and flew out lots of European players, including a player from Spain, France, Italy, etc.   There are always a handful of Europeans who show up.   Last year they didn't hold the qualifiers or, if they did, they didn't foot the bill for the European local state Vintage champ winners as they did in the past. 

I must admit that I was unaware of the qualifiers that you say were held. I suppose I'll 'just believe' you on that one.

I really do like the idea of qualifier tournaments for specific regions to feed the event. If WOTC were to orginize a system for these tournaments modeling the process that they use for PTQs --> PTs, keep the entry style open like grand prix, and changing the prize support from 'a joke' into something substantial like premier event payout, then they would have a something that I'd be happy with traveling to. I'm sure a substantial ammount of people feel the exact same way that I do and wouldn't care about the lack of singles in the secondary market because the people who expect to win would have them and everyone else would be having too much fun to care. As it is, I wouldn't even travel to GEN CON for 'that tournament' or to Chicago for the SCG tournaments held there despite having ridiculous EV once in the tournament. The plane ticket from SF -> Chicago/Indianapolis + hotel + food + entry fee simply isn't worth it. If WOTC isn't going to take this tournament seriously, then why should anyone.
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« Reply #28 on: May 20, 2008, 12:02:38 pm »

For me, this change of venue is quite dissappointing.  The combination of the GenCon experience and Vintage Worlds was awesome.  I can't justify the time and expense of participating in a large vintage tournament that I have no realistic chance of winning.  I also can't justify the time and expense of going to a four day convention and not participate in a large vintage tournament.  For me, the two combined made for four really cool days.  I'm just glad I didn't book a flight and a hotel already.  In short....count me out!

Unfortunately,  I already booked my flight, hotel, etc.  This is a major stab in the back from WOTC.  I am still going to go to GenCon, since it is all paid for, but rest assured, I will have a middle finger pointing straight up in the air everytime I see a WOTC booth.
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« Reply #29 on: May 20, 2008, 12:05:58 pm »

Like I said... I'm pretty sure this isn't a decision of WOTC.  I think Its a pastimes decision.  Alan runs all the major events in Illinois, and I know he also is the TO for magic @ gencon.
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