Brainstorm, Flash, Gush, Scroll, and Ponder Restricted

[Bryant Cook]

Being a Legacy player that follows Vintage. I'm very interested in post 20th vintage. It will lead to alot of innovation and new decks. Old decks will become more powerful. It sucks to see Brainstorm and Ponder go. However, the format will go on. I for one am excited to play Grim Long again.

[coyoteuglly]

The way I see it everyone has two options at this point.

1.  Go away an either quit playing Magic, or play another format.  Either way quit bitching and just go away.

2.  (Recommended) Quit bitching and start working on new decks.

Personally I love the changes.  They make the format interesting again instead of having a Flash vs Gush vs shitty deck metagame. 

But for those of you that don't.  Quit bitching.  There is absolutely nothing you can do about it.

[Shock Wave]

I'm surprised about Ponder, but all the other changes are perfectly justified. Gush should not have been unrestricted, Merchant Scroll and Brainstorm should have been restricted long ago, and Flash was just dumb.

Now I'm wondering to which charity organization Ben Carp will donate the 1000$ he promised to donate if Flash was restricted.

I think you're assuming there was even a crumb of integrity or thought put into that statement.

It might be that a sufficient outcry might cause the DCI to change their minds sooner.

I suppose that's possible, but it's about as likely as the probability of selling a popsicle at the Arctic circle.

[frolll]

Vintage is the one place that allows people to play pet decks for years.

I lol'd. This is casual dude, not Vintage; I mean competitive Vintage. Any "format" where you can play the same goddam deck for more than 2 years cannot be called a format at all imho. The DCI did a bold move, but it's a move in the smart direction, ie making deckbuilding relevant again, instead of ability to netdeck and goldfish.

BTW, I think you really need to relax and take a step back. Not to play the moderator here, but you really are an annoyance, sir. So, if you are not happy with the DCI's choices, go sell your cards and play Standard, where you can netdeck at will.

Man, they are giving us a huge chance to innovate, truely, the format, and what I see ? A bunch of whiners. That's not cool. :/

2.  (Recommended) Quit bitching and start working on new decks.

Now, that's a good comment. Thanks. Whoever you may be, thanks a lot. We need more people actually BUILDING decks and LESS cheap-ass haters/whiners/Chicken Littles.

[Bryant Cook]

2.  (Recommended) Quit bitching and start working on new decks.

Agreed. EPIC has already started working on new decks. I can't wait to play them.

[Mr. Nightmare]

Remember in 2004/early 2005 when you guys were like, "Quit bitching and deal with the changes, Legacy players!" and we were all like, "But they took our format away!" and you were all like, "Too bad, you should have bought power, and then you wouldn't have cared!"

Yeah, I remember it too.  Shoe's on the other foot now.  But hey, I'm actually excited for you guys.  Once we actually did stop bitching and got to innovating, some pretty interesting stuff turned up.  I'm sure you guys will find the same.

[bluemage55]

I lol'd. This is casual dude, not Vintage; I mean competitive Vintage. Any "format" where you can play the same goddam deck for more than 2 years cannot be called a format at all imho. The DCI did a bold move, but it's a move in the smart direction, ie making deckbuilding relevant again, instead of ability to netdeck and goldfish.

Vintage is built upon the backs of staples whose power level exceeds that of any cards that will ever be printed in the future.  That's what allow the same decks to be used for years.  While decks do evolve over time, Control Slaver fundamentally remains Control Slaver, and Stax fundamentally remains Stax.

BTW, I think you really need to relax and take a step back. Not to play the moderator here, but you really are an annoyance, sir. So, if you are not happy with the DCI's choices, go sell your cards and play Standard, where you can netdeck at will.  

I couldn't care less if you find me annoying, nor do I have to take orders from you.  It is a fallacy for you to assume that I am a netdecker, or that players who are opposed to these restrictions dislike them because it interferes with netdecking.  Such a blatant ignorance of the actual arguments being advanced is not worth of TMD.

Man, they are giving us a huge chance to innovate, truely, the format, and what I see ? A bunch of whiners. That's not cool. :/

Simply because you are given a chance to innovate does not mean that the restrictions were a good thing.  

You could create far more innovation by simultaneously restricting Force of Will, Bazaar of Baghdad, Mana Drain, Dark Ritual, and Mirshra's Workshop.  I doubt many would support that, although sycophants like you would still call the people who complain whiners.

Now, that's a good comment. Thanks. Whoever you may be, thanks a lot. We need more people actually BUILDING decks and LESS cheap-ass haters/whiners/Chicken Littles.

You are again making an assumption that those who are unhappy with the changes are not building new decks.  There is nothing that precludes us from doing both.

Further, this is TMD.  It is a forum for sharing ideas and thoughts about Vintage.  While you may disagree with what others may say, it is not your place to tell people not to post.

[Razvan]

shock wave brings up a good point however. nothing can be done now.

best thing to do is to break the format like we all think it will happen. then let's hope they don't restrict everything, but instead undo some of this damage.

[Nomad]

Great thing for the format.

And great timing, it'll throw the Vintage worlds right open this year.  Ichorid is still going to suffer under the omnipresent 4xLeyline board, and Shops can still be held in check the same way they've been for the last 5 years.

And hopefully (surely, basically) a whole new brood of decks will appear on the horizon.

[arctic79]

I wouldn't be surprised if MBC rears its beautiful head again in a big way.  Sligh might make a cameo in the near future as well.  Blue based combo decks though will find a way to cope.  There are still some good card draw spells out there, just none as good as our restricted friends.

[Nehptis]

This quote from ELD is very interesting when you stop to think about it, which I did.  It's actually pretty easy to categorically define the B/R list into these 3 classifications.  Which in itself speaks to the DCI's consistency in their approach to the B/R list, both additions and removals.  So, following that logic how do the new additions to the list apply?…let's see.

The Banned/Restricted list should be only Fast Mana, Tutors and Degenerate Card Advantage.

Here's my attempt at categorizing them…which wasn't very difficult.

Fast Mana / Mana Advantage / Mana Avoidance:
Black Lotus
Channel
Chrome Mox
Fastbond
Grim Monolith
Lion’s Eye Diamond
Lotus Petal
Mana Crypt
Mana Vault
Mox Diamond
Mox Emerald
Mox Jet
Mox Pearl
Mox Ruby
Mox Sapphire
Sol Ring
Tolarian Academy
Strip Mine (Mana advantage thru a negative effect)
Trinisphere (Mana advantage thru a negative effect)
Balance (Mana advantage thru a negative effect)
Time Walk (Mana advantage thru a turn based effect)
Dream Halls (Mana Avoidance)
Mind’s Desire (Mana Avoidance)
Frantic Search (Mana Avoidance)
Flash (Mana Avoidance) ****** New addition
Gush (Mana Avoidance) ****** New re-addition

Tutors
Crop Rotation
Demonic Consultation
Demonic Tutor
Enlightened Tutor
Entomb
Gifts Ungiven
Imperial Seal
Mystical Tutor
Vampiric Tutor
Tinker
Burning Wish
Regrowth
Personal Tutor
Merchant Scroll ****** New addition
 
Degenerate Card Advantage
Ancestral Recall
Fact or Fiction
Memory Jar
Yawgmoth’s Will
Wheel of Fortune
Windfall
Yawgmoth’s Bargain
Timetwister
Time Spiral (+ Mana Avoidance)
Necropotence
Library of Alexandria

So, where does that leave Ponder and Brainstorm?  They are not Fast Mana. I don't believe them to be Degenerate Card Advantage.  So, either the DCI is looking at them as Tutors or has now created a new category of B/R cards.  If so, what is that new category?

[Harlequin]

The Epic Tale of Vintage
~ Screen Play by Harlequin

ActI:

The Mob: Holy Crap I hate Card-X, Heres a Huge list of reasons why!
Top-8:  Relax it's not that bad
The Mob: you just wait and see, they will restrict card-x and we will all laugh at you.  You just wait until the 1st... Ahhh hahahaha

The DCI: ..... no changes
The Mob: /cry
Top-8: /tiny-violin

~ Repeat ActI like 2-5 times

ActII

The Hopefuls: This time... this time they will change!
The Mob: The DCI doesn't care, won't care, and never has cared.  Besides were comfortable the way the format is now.  This truely is the golden age of vintage in perfect harmony of balance of and luck

The DCI: SURPRIZE!!  /slap

The Hopefuls: Hahaha Great, now I can play my pet-deck again! I support these changes.
The Mob: OMG-STFU-KTHXBBQ.   Its the end of the world, Don't you see!?  Here's a list of 1000 reasons why the DCI is stupid....
The Mob: ... In summary the format is much more about luck now than skill. So We Quit, I'm taking my cards and going home to play world of warcraft. 
The people who actually did quit from the last R/B Update: Oh damn!  This looks new and interesting, I'm going to start playing again!
Crazy Eyes: Following this logic let's just ban every card other than Swamp and Relentless Rats!   

The Mob: Wait! I have an idea, lets make our own B/R list that ignore these changes.
TMD: That will NEVER work.  Not in a million years.
The Mob: who cares, some of us - lets break off and agrue about -that- for a while, and prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it will never work in a million years.
TMD: You have fun with that.  And don't worry about making a mess we've got our bold-red ink and lock buttons ready.
The Mob: The rest of us, lets start a petition ~
 "Dear DCI,
 Colectively, we Hate you.  We hope that you get attacked by bees, and anyone who comes to sees you and trys to help is also attacked by bees.  You are stupid and smell bad.  Here is a list of 1000 reasons why we think you are stupid. 
Love,
 ~The Mob
PS - you won't get another dime outa me until you make a change... not that I every buy anything from you anyway"

The Mob: There that'll show them... wait nm we quit anyway no one cares anymore anyway.
Top-8: Later!  Hrmmm.. now I have to come up with a deck to play.  I can't play X, Y or Z... so I guess I just go back to card-W.  Good ol' W...
~next week~
The Mob: Damnit! WOW sucks I want to play magic again!
Top-8: Cool with me, lets see if you can beat D0u3le_Yuu.Dec
The Mob: F*ck Card-W, that's way overrated.  Besides we have all this new design space now!
~they play~
Top-8: Beat you again!  That makes the score X-0-2.  I'm in Top-8 again!
The Mob: Yeah well, its only because W is so stupidly O.P. and broken, and easy to win with, and requires no skill.  It should be banned.  You just wait and see, the next B/R list comes out on the 1st and I can't immagine they won't ban W.  You just wait and see!!

...

~ Repeat from the begining until the rapture...

It happened with Trinisphere
It happened with Gifts
Its going to happen with BS/Ponder

[arctic79]

I love it Harlequin.

[thorme]

This thread is great.  So many entertaining thoughts on here (and I paraphrase):

- Blue is dead
- There goes the skill requirement for the format
- Force of Will is nerfed
- Every Top 8 deck will now run 4x Bazaar
- Workshop into lock component is consistent (from the same poster complaining that turn 1 force will now be too inconsistent)


Now I'm a great fan of chicken littles because of the pure entertainment value.  I have to admit I get a great deal of pleasure out of listening to folks whine that skill is gone from the format at the same time as they complain that decks x, y, and z are now unstoppable....these folks clearly had no deckbuilding skills in the first place and hence they are the loudest voices decrying the change.

I'm a huge fan of the changes - all of them.  Then again, I like any sweeping changes that mix things up - these are always opportunities for the real deckbuilders and innovators to go out there and show their stuff.

A few predictions of my own:

- Blue still tops in Vintage
- Format still requires skill
- Force of Will still played
- Bazaar not ubiquitous
- Workshop still only a 4-of

[Webster]

I love it Harlequin.

I enjoyed that post along with Owen's and a few others. They know what's going on.


Today's word of the day is:

 S-H-E-L-L-S-H-O-C-K

It doesn't matter if you're down, just got kicked in the gut, and can't breathe or hear. Get up and march you pansies.

[Gaagooch]

So after an entire night of sleep having thought about what has happened to vintage.  I still have to tell you, i don't much like it.  I understand that this opens up the format to evolve and for new decks to come to light.  But i liked the decks that were being played, some of the cards i understand were too good, like gush, and scroll.  I don't know that flash was too powerful as about nobody played it around me in a long while...Brainstorm made most blue control decks viable.  It helped give the deck consistency.  Ponder may have been a little stronger than people give it credit for as with ponder and brainstorm you can cut the number of lands you run in a deck because you had so many one mana mana fixers.  Sounds redundant, but its the way i feel.  So in essence i am excited about being able to try and build new things to play with but at the same time i am deeply saddened and this seems like a great mistake to me.

[Whatever Works]

The loss of brainstorm isnt only devestating to control decks, but its equally devestating to combo decks. Thats what people are missing.

Brainstorm was ALWAYS the best card in Meandecks storm 10 deck, TPS, Long, and almost any other combo deck that you can think of with the acception of Belcher (which makes sense because of its inconsistencies).

I dont really like the loss of brainstorm, because it makes combo, and control decks less consistent. Type 1 is always random, but it succeeded with what I called "Controlled Chaos"... Because BS allowed there to be consistency to brokeness, but also answers.

I dont get ponder, but its clear that wizards was sick of seeing the SAME THING in ALL blue decks... FOW cant get the axe because its the glue of the format. But, brainstorm is a big loss...

[CHOZO]

I'm actually really excited about these changes. I feel like Dragon Combo will probably be a bit more viable, which is great!

I wonder what kinds of new decks people will come up with now.

[madmanmike25]

Man I am so pissed off!!  They just made my CotV@1 a weaker play.

Remember all those people that sold off their Drains???  I bet they will soon regret that...

I blame all of you people who played blue decks all the time.  Why couldn't you guys mix it up every once in a while???  Even I don't always play with Shops.  Now most people will probably heed the call of Mishra and get that card restricted as well.  Thanks.

Clearly a diverse format is bad.  The golden age has ended.


P.S.  Why would Belcher decks thrive when we already have
4 FoW's
4 Spheres
4 Thorns
4 Duress
4 Seizes
4 Stifles(mainly for EtW, but since most of the mana is temp. it works fine on Belcher)
4 Null Rods(buy 4 of these now)
4 Chalice

most of those are already common(except Rod) in Vintage decks.  I always loved playing Belcher when I went first.  Belcher on the draw?....not so much.


EDIT:  How the hell could I forget to add Chalice to the list???

[Concentration]

All the arguments that blue "deserved" to have more powerful cards on the basis that blue decks are "harder to play" are BS and have been finally slapped down as the blatant favoritism they are.

[DoubleDrain]

the more i think about it, it seems this wave of restrictions is right in line with the ideas from the other article from magicthegathering.com from monday: the people at wotc are trying to bring new players into the game, while retaining the older ones. it is kinda hard for new players to get into type one when they are "forced" into playing the same 40-50 card blue decks just to win a game.

these changes might help bridge the gap between legacy and vintage, and encourage more players to get into the format when they realize that their sui-black/gobbos/recycle combo/whatever deck might have a shot. even though wizards "doesn't make money form vintage players" i believe the motive was still to try and get more people playing ALL formats, and to do whatever it takes to keep people playing.

it is clear to me that in the long run, this is the right move if your goal is to try and expand the player base, since potentially we will have deck choices other than the current blue/bazaar/shops meta we are in now, and therefore the format as a whole becomes more appealing to the average mage.

i just hope these changes actually do lead to a broader meta, and no one deck (dredge) becomes the next gush.deck...

[CHOZO]

4 FoW's
4 Spheres
4 Thorns
4 Duress
4 Seizes
4 Stifles(mainly for EtW, but since most of the mana is temp. it works fine on Belcher)
4 Null Rods(buy 4 of these now)
4 Chalice

What deck is that? It sounds like fun.

[Madpeep]

What deck is that? It sounds like fun.

Although you're probably being sarcastic, I hope this format will be more about "Fun" decks now.  You shouldn't have to play Blue to defeat Blue.  Vintage was broken down to two types of players for far too long, those who played Blue, and those who didn't.

[Vegeta2711]

so blue was ruling type 1. what the hell is wrong with blue ruling type 1?

You see nothing wrong with a single type of deck ruling Vintage for over a decade? Really?

I was freaked out last night mostly at the sheer amount of changes they made, but in retrospect, this is just the big nuke it from orbit reset Vintage players considered years ago when the format started moving toward combo-control as by far the best deck and the majority of decks were going to be combo.

I think even if this was a horrible move it'll be good just to see people actually have to put thought into their mana bases again.

[Smmenen]

YES! YES! YES!!!!

In Richmond as Smemmen mentioned in his latest article he and I were talking about the state of vintage. My frustration with the format was that first off YOU HAVE TO PLAY THE BLUE DECK, sure blue is the best color, sure if you think you are the better player you play the blue deck to maximize your odds of winning because it has the most powerful cards, but for vintage, in my opinion its just not the same.

The first thing I hate about the blue deck: Every blue deck has the same 45 cards. You have to play 4 Gush, Brainstorm, Ponder, Merchant Scroll, Force of Will etc etc. The room for innovation is pretty slim.

The second thing I hate about the blue deck: The mirror. The mirror isn't decided by tech, or skill, or anything other than draw. Even worse none of the cards do anything, the game is honestly decided by whoever does more STUFF. Duress/Thoughtseize you, Gush, Brainstorm put 2 lands back, Scroll for Recall, Recall. Nine spells later, the board is the same and I have drawn 100 cards, guess what my hand is all Brainstorms Ponders Scrolls and Duresses! Then after I have cast all those ill get a Fastbond. Fastbond sure is a neat card, really doesn't do anything when you think about it, since when was playing extra lands a super broken effect, before Gush it really wasn't in any decks at all. Well now that I have fastbond I get to play all my crappy cantrips FASTER and then I get Yawgmoth's Willl which ill use to replay all my crappy cantrips and ill draw my win condition Tarmogoyf? no Meloku (lol) nope, some storm card. LAME!

The third thing I hate about the blue deck: Its so consistent. When your deck is all cantrips and restricted cards, as long as you draw lands and spells your hand is going to be sick.

When I complained about all these very things to Steve, he asked me what I would do to fix vintage. I didn't really have an answer except unrestrict Necro so there would be a sick black deck to fight the gush decks. He asked me if restricting Scroll would fix anything, though it would make the Gush+bond plan worse, people would just play more garbage spells that dig, like Impulse.

Without knowing it, these are exactly the changes I was asking for. The blue deck has taken a serious blow and I for one could not possibly be happier.

- Owen

But the solution I suggested was to Ban Yawg Will.  http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/10071.html

Without Will, what good is: Gifts Ungiven, all that Pondering, Brainstorming, and Gushing for mere parity?  How useful really from a tempo perspective is Scroll for Ancestral if it isn't redoubled with a Yawg Will shortly afterward?  Not very.  That's why people used to dislike Scroll, even when I was advocating Scroll back in the day.  They felt that Scroll wasn't very good because it wasn't a continuous source of card advantage.  That's why people played Thirst over Scroll.   

[CHOZO]

What deck is that? It sounds like fun.

Although you're probably being sarcastic, I hope this format will be more about "Fun" decks now.  You shouldn't have to play Blue to defeat Blue.  Vintage was broken down to two types of players for far too long, those who played Blue, and those who didn't.

I wasn't being sarcastic. That deck actually does sound like fun. And I was hoping he would post a complete deck list.

[Vegeta2711]

Without Will, what good is: Gifts Ungiven, all that Pondering, Brainstorming, and Gushing for mere parity?

I'm reasonably sure I can kill you easily without Will by using Fastbond. HTH.

[Whatever Works]

Clearly a diverse format is bad.  The golden age has ended.

Huh? This is what I dont get? What freaking golden age? Vintage has been balanced for the most part for years... There has always been control in some form, always been combo, and some form of stax prison...

I dont see what golden age everyone is talking about... Besides lower attendence, and less interest in the format...

[Smmenen]

Without Will, what good is: Gifts Ungiven, all that Pondering, Brainstorming, and Gushing for mere parity?

I'm reasonably sure I can kill you easily without Will by using Fastbond. HTH.

Sure you can, but the overall deck isn't nearly as good.   

[policehq]

i'm going to start playing again. blumage55, you're aiming for an outcry to get wizards to change your mind, but here i am to thank them for renewing my interest in the game and format.

forino's sui-black actually sounds like an awesome option if belcher, ichorid, and shop were to be top decks, particularly when he played null rods.