[Deck] ICBM Oath for Vintage 2.0

[mistervader]

I think the reason that no reasoning was given is that it's simply not true.  Progenitus does not fly, possibly making it less useful defensively, and is probably the hardest creature to hard cast that has ever been considered for Oath (or ever printed?).  So it cannot be "strictly" better.

I think that it's probably better than SSS though.  Those two factors don't really take away from the fact that it's 10/10, untargetable, immune to damage, unblockable, and if it dies, gets shuffled back into you library, quite possibly to come back the next turn.

I think that Empyrial Archangel and Progenitus are both superior options to Simic Sky Swallower.  Empyrial Archangel is a little hard to cast, but the ability to severely hamper the ability of many decks to win, while still attacking seems to indicate that it's a better choice when concerned about defending, and having Oath shut down.

As for Progenitus, if your major concern is dropping a creature on the board that's as hard to kill as possible and beats pretty darn hard, this is your guy.

My reasoning follows precisely this: it's a faster clock than Simic Sky Swallower, and can chump Colossus and survive. Note that I did not say Progenitus was better than anything else, except SSS.

A few more questions regarding this deck:

1. Despite being only partially powered, I'm really liking the Chalice. Is it advisable to run only 3, since multiples in hand of Chalice for a non-powered player tend to be terrible?

2. Is it a good idea to run 3 creatures instead of 2 in my case? (Again, I only have Sapph, Lotus, and Recall.)

3. How do you feel about Lat Nam's Legacy? I run Scroll Rack, but I find the Legacy is quite nice, as it works at instant speed.

[theLastGnu]

I think the reason that no reasoning was given is that it's simply not true.  Progenitus does not fly, possibly making it less useful defensively, and is probably the hardest creature to hard cast that has ever been considered for Oath (or ever printed?).  So it cannot be "strictly" better.

I think that it's probably better than SSS though.  Those two factors don't really take away from the fact that it's 10/10, untargetable, immune to damage, unblockable, and if it dies, gets shuffled back into you library, quite possibly to come back the next turn.

I think that Empyrial Archangel and Progenitus are both superior options to Simic Sky Swallower.  Empyrial Archangel is a little hard to cast, but the ability to severely hamper the ability of many decks to win, while still attacking seems to indicate that it's a better choice when concerned about defending, and having Oath shut down.

As for Progenitus, if your major concern is dropping a creature on the board that's as hard to kill as possible and beats pretty darn hard, this is your guy.

My reasoning follows precisely this: it's a faster clock than Simic Sky Swallower, and can chump Colossus and survive. Note that I did not say Progenitus was better than anything else, except SSS.

A few more questions regarding this deck:

1. Despite being only partially powered, I'm really liking the Chalice. Is it advisable to run only 3, since multiples in hand of Chalice for a non-powered player tend to be terrible?

2. Is it a good idea to run 3 creatures instead of 2 in my case? (Again, I only have Sapph, Lotus, and Recall.)

3. How do you feel about Lat Nam's Legacy? I run Scroll Rack, but I find the Legacy is quite nice, as it works at instant speed.

I think SSS still has some considerable benefit in its hard castability, it's there for when your opponent inevitably brings in ridiculous enchantment hate; I'm not sure Progenitus is better overall, but I am sure that it's not strictly better.

As for the chalices, why would having multiples be awful? Chalice at 0 becomes much more 1-sided and chalice at 1 is still a remarkably strong play.

I've been liking the Legacy a lot in the builds I've been testing with, but sometimes I really miss the possibilities rack provides when you absolutely NEED to find an answer.

And I don't see why you couldn't run 3 creatures, a lot of the fully powered builds I see in recent tournament reports run 2 overlords and an Akroma.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

I really havn't had to hard of a time casting EA, between the orchards mox and lotus (6 main deck sources) its pretty do able

[AshThaReaper804]

Oath is dead, Telemin Performance rules your metagame, lose to me now and don't try later....

Verbal Warning for spam.
-Godder

[Harlequin]

Oath is dead, Telemin Performance rules your metagame, lose to me now and don't try later....

Is that a joke?   Because I lold.

What makes you think that you can resolve a 5 mana sorcery, before the oath player resolves a 2 mana enchant?  If Telemin Performance was going to be good, we would see more decks running Aquire today.

[Suicideking]

Im pretty sure Ash doesnt play vintage if he thinks oath is going to care about that card.  I've never feared earwig squad or jesters cap so why fear Telemin Performance.  You will always just counter it, duress it, or win faster.

[mistervader]

I'm still torn  between Rods and Chalice in my deck, to be honest. The concessions I've had to make since I don't have the complete Power 8 meant Null Rod was advisable, and gave a beating against Tezz and Painter, which I found quite often enough in our meta. However, Chalice for 0/1 against our ANT players has also proven to be quite a game breaker...

[Little Joe]

Oath is dead, Telemin Performance rules your metagame, lose to me now and don't try later....

Is that a joke?   Because I lold.

What makes you think that you can resolve a 5 mana sorcery, before the oath player resolves a 2 mana enchant?  If Telemin Performance was going to be good, we would see more decks running Aquire today.

I also laughed at this. The scary thing was I debated for a split second if it was sideboard worthy. It is not.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

I have been playing null rod over chalicein my meta game full of tezz, cs, and painter. I also run 4 wasteland, and strip. Im running serum visions over impulse i have found it to be alot better in many situations for the simple fact that impulse is getting you one good card where as visions is drawing you a card, and setting up the next turn or two, OR even putting them on the bottom in an impulse sort of way. I have found often times when i impulse there will be oath, disruption spell, X, X...and i need both or something of that nature where as serum visions allows for a piece that turn and winning on the next. I feel null for is better currently maybe thats just my opinion. But I would like to see more testing on serum visions because i think its very good in oath. My draw suite is 4 serum vision, 1 ponder, 1 brainstorm, 2 lat nam legacy. Seems to be working alot better then impulse IMO....thoughts?

[Fester]

My draw suite is 4 serum vision, 1 ponder, 1 brainstorm, 2 lat nam legacy. Seems to be working alot better then impulse IMO....thoughts?

Ancestral Recall maybe?

Impulse is much better then serum vision since digs deeper and lets you keep Negate mana up (You can use it end of opponents turn).  Also, when you absolutely have to get a piece *now* serum vision is awful.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Obviously recall too sorry for leaving out the obvious. But when playing 4 duress, 4 force, 1 misD, how often do you need to leave open negate also? seriously? The simple fact is i have tested tooooo many times with impulse and its getting one card (maybe disruption or a oath) where as serum viosion can set you up with both. Serum vision is comparable to ponder and ponder is a very strong card in this deck. And its 1 less mana then impulse. Impulse in my testiong and honest opinion is terrible, YES it digs 1 card deeper, but its 1 more mana, and ONLY sets you up with 1 card, where as serum vision gives you more options. Until you have tested serum vision to the fullest extent i dont think it can be bashed upon

[Suicideking]

Impulse is so much better then serum visions because for every time you Impulse into something like oath, recall, force, strip mine. You have the fetch, fetch, x, x, impulses that suck and you are happy to get around.

[Tha Gunslinga]

So, it's turn 4 or so.  You can either cast Serum Visions or Impulse.

Serum:
top card is Polluted Delta.  You draw it, then look at the top 2.  You see Oath of Druids and Mox Sapphire.  You bottom-deck the Sapphire.  Next turn you play Oath.

Impulse.  You look at Delta, Oath, Sapphire, and another Impulse.  You take Oath and play it.

It's a turn faster.  I'm pretty sure you go with Impulse.  Obviously there are situations where you would want Serum Visions over Impulse, but they're fairly rare.

[VideoGameBoy]

I'm still torn  between Rods and Chalice in my deck, to be honest. The concessions I've had to make since I don't have the complete Power 8 meant Null Rod was advisable, and gave a beating against Tezz and Painter, which I found quite often enough in our meta. However, Chalice for 0/1 against our ANT players has also proven to be quite a game breaker...

It usually does make it harder for them to win, but I've seen them still power through - countered spells still ramp up the storm count.

3. How do you feel about Lat Nam's Legacy? I run Scroll Rack, but I find the Legacy is quite nice, as it works at instant speed.

Card parity for random cards is not good.  To do what brainstorm did, you need card parity, the ability to put dead cards in hand back into the library (Blessing/Hellkite/Progenitus, obviously), and a cost of U at instant speed.

Rack is close, but chokes on Null Rod, and isn't blue.

Sylvan Library is close as well, but is slow, and isn't blue.  Other than that, it has been working very well for me, since in many matchups the optional card advantage and ability to optimize your hand every turn has really been adding consistency.  I also run an Enlightened Tutor, too, which has been helping tremendously.

Just throwing out ideas...

[jamestosetti]

I havn't seen any oath being played in mws play since progenitus came out so I was wondering where this deck stands now in the metagame. I saw that someone from starcity won a smaller tournament with it. Has progenitus given the deck an edge in any matchup or is oath slipping or is it just underplayed at the moment? How is the oath matchup with Tezzeret? I should know these things but I never was a good oath player.

[thejinhong]

Recently, at UCLA I've been playtesting a fully powered Tezzeret vs a Null Rod-Progenitus-Oath.  This particular variant of Null Rod-Progenitus-Oath has proven to be a strong opponent vs Tezzeret even though it has zero power cards.  In place of power cards, this Oath deck uses Rods, Spell Snares, and Basic Counterspells (in addition to the standard Oath skeleton of Force, Duress, etc). 

For a non-powered deck, I was very impressed by its performance.   

The 3 Null Rods effectively hinders Tezzeret with pinpoint precision.  Tezzeret, on the other hand, runs zero main-deck cards capable of producing a pinpoint crippling effect on Oath.

[Suicideking]

Oath is still the shit.  The list that won blue bell is pretty good.  Nobody plays it though.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

yeah I was the unfortunate one that lost in the blue bell finals, but still won a twister...his hands were christmas land...and mine were good but not busted, but I did like his version of oath.

[honestabe]

I concure.

Despite the restriction of brainstorm, which did cripple every deck, (but especially Oath), Oath is still a very good, viable deck, which I feel is able to defeate any deck

[Hero]

yeah I was the unfortunate one that lost in the blue bell finals, but still won a twister...his hands were christmas land...and mine were good but not busted, but I did like his version of oath.

Do you happen to know if there is a decklist posted for the T8 of that tournament?  I have looked and haven't found one yet.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1041


...enjoy!

[Hero]

http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1041


...enjoy!

Thanks!  Actually surprised to see Progenitus in the Main Deck.

I figured with all the gold card goodness in Alara Reborn we'd have another Oath-worthy creature but nothing seems to top Hellkite Overlord or Progenitus at first glance.

[Tin_Mox5831]

The Dragon that steals all other dragons is cute, albeit not playable. It really is sad that Oath didn't get some absurd monster for the second consecutive set....

I guess we're just starting to get spoiled. (Myself included)

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1041


...enjoy!

Thanks!  Actually surprised to see Progenitus in the Main Deck.

I figured with all the gold card goodness in Alara Reborn we'd have another Oath-worthy creature but nothing seems to top Hellkite Overlord or Progenitus at first glance.

Thats because nobody plays it main...its a turn too slow in occasions

[Hero]

http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1041


...enjoy!

Thanks!  Actually surprised to see Progenitus in the Main Deck.

I figured with all the gold card goodness in Alara Reborn we'd have another Oath-worthy creature but nothing seems to top Hellkite Overlord or Progenitus at first glance.

Thats because nobody plays it main...its a turn too slow in occasions

Yeah, I know it's a bit slower than say, Akroma/Hellkite but since most people run DSC(and seemingly now Inkwell Leviathan is replacing that), Oath is usually slowed down a bit anyway despite the Tinker-ness.  I suppose it's meta dependent but if you expect bounce or swords/path, perhaps Progenitus is better as global destruction is less prominent in Vintage.  Of course, that's just my two cents and I'm sure at bigger events that one/two turn difference will wind up costing you games against combo. 

[chrissss]

The Dragon that steals all other dragons is cute, albeit not playable. It really is sad that Oath didn't get some absurd monster for the second consecutive set....
I guess we're just starting to get spoiled. (Myself included)

Yeah I was a bit dissapointed with that as well. A 7/7 flying hast is ok, but a 8/8 flying haste regenerateable firebreathing is nicer.

[Andreas]

Yeah I was a bit dissapointed with that as well. A 7/7 flying hast is ok, but a 8/8 flying haste regenerateable firebreathing is nicer.

You forgot trampling, which is not to be underestimated.

[eaglewolf]

I overheard someone talking about possibly sideboarding it for the mirror match

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

I overheard someone talking about possibly sideboarding it for the mirror match

the match where your opponant will typically sb out the dragon? seems bad.

[Tin_Mox5831]

I just wanted to say that I played James' build at the Pittsburgh tournament in my first event back from a hiatus, and it was a lot of fun and quite powerful. I lost a very close Round One to Dredge due to simultaneous topdecked Bazaars in the third game and made some play errors in Round Two which were all my fault, but after that, the deck was strong and gave me the power and flexibility to win out the rest of the day. (The early losses made for awful breakers and I just missed T8, but c'est la vie.) 

I ran a Progenitus in the sideboard over the Empyrial Archangels, and it was very powerful. I played an Oath mirror in the fourth round that was razor close up to the very end, where it became a blowout due to having a better creature package as well as Life From The Loam and an extra Wasteland from the board.

One thing I did notice is that I had to mulligan quite often, despite religiously pile shuffling the deck into primes at almost any spare moment. Should there be another land in the maindeck?

Other than that one concern, kudos on a quality list.

-Dave