[Deck] ICBM Oath for Vintage 2.0

[playkenny]

Suicideking - I commend you on a very nice build and congrats on your lotus wins! I have now fallen in love with negate...(I was trying mana leaks before your list).

I have to echo the point that 1 scroll rack is perfect...you don't wanna cast it early (not even turn 2), but later, its has been brillant (esp when you have loam also from the board - its a mini tax/rack!). In terms of the oath dudes, I'm sorta missing the vigilance factor, but it is necessary, and the regen ability + fire breathing is not dead at all!

2 questions:
1 - you are suggesting the possibility of - Merchant Scroll for + Misdirection. Is this because you usually tutor for protection with scroll, and rarely recall/bounce? Thus would rather draw your scroll target to protect your oath a turn earlier? Just wanted to hear the theory behind it.

2 - Thoughtsieze vs duress - i found that the sieze can be a bit of pain esp when spirits are harassing you. Were siezes a meta call for you? i.e. you wanted to nab welders/meddling mage or something? or you used it because its strictly better? I have been trying 1 duress, 3 sieze, and the duress "fizzed" once, and made me pick the non-optimal target once.

Well done in creating the deck, and thank you in advance!

[Tha Gunslinga]

So is the only change to the deck from the list you posted -1 Merchant Scroll and +1 Misdirection?

Edit: I just looked up Hellkite Overlord on the gatherer. It has no listings for its format legality. I haven't been keeping up with set releases at all since Future Sight, did the Dragon thing even come out yet?

It's legal.

[sigar]

from wizards.com:

As a special preview, Hellkite Overlord won’t be legal in Standard until the release of Shards of Alara on October 3, but in the meantime, as a printed Magic card, it will be legal in Legacy and Vintage starting on August 29, 2008.

@Suicideking:

Cutting the merchant scroll means you will only run 2 tutors, won't the single bounce spell be too random then?

Doesn't crop rotation also help you power out a fast Oath (activation)? At least vs creatureless decks?

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

@sigar, you know against creature less decks chalice at 1 is an incredibly strong  play that can win you games if you can protect it. I wouldn't figure a one of 1cc spell would do much to accelerate my game plan in that matchup considering the 4x cotv.

[andrewpate]

Crop Rotation is solid in the mirror, though, if it gets you Forbidden Orchard #2 and lets you Oath.  Still, that's pretty narrow.

[sigar]

@hvndr3d y34r h3x:

Why do you answer questions I never ask?

Crop rotation DOES act as the 5th orchard = faster oath activation. In addition it also finds strip which is gg, if combined with loam against some decks.

Although I agree chalice is a very strong disruption card, I just don't see why you keep pointing that out

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

@hvndr3d y34r h3x:

Why do you answer questions I never ask?

Crop rotation DOES act as the 5th orchard = faster oath activation. In addition it also finds strip which is gg, if combined with loam against some decks.

Although I agree chalice is a very strong disruption card, I just don't see why you keep pointing that out

@sigar.
Because it'll be very difficult to play crop rotation through chalice at 1. A play you should be trying to make in the type of match up you asked about, thats why.
I really don't feel your understanding the "big picture" as far as the type of things this deck tries to achieve in certain match ups, specifically the "creaturless" match up you asked about(I'm going to group them in with things running TOA as a win condition). Your not trying to get oath on line in a tendrils match up, your trying to keep them from killing you. You could play oath, they fow, you fow back, they untap and kill you. I've seen this sort of things happen to bad players over and over again for years. SPEED IS NOT A PRIORITY IN THESE TYPES OF GAMES. That is a mistake bad players make. Control is, you more so want to make a chalice play then an oath play. This said, once you make the play you want to make (chalice at one ideally), the card you want to run (crop roation) is not only chaliced out, but also intend for what is incorrect strategy the majority of the time.

granted turn one orchard mox oath force blue card on the play I would probably play. But I seriously wouldn't make this play  if i know my opponent was playing dt (even though chalice 0 is probably a better play here) or tps beyond turn 1 on the play. they can just get way to far ahead of your in ca, or in tps's case, kill you.

I have found crop rotation useful in a lot of aggro match ups for things like killing an attacking meddling mage or dc when played in conjunction with factory or evading wasteland.

[sigar]

If you sit there holding negate mana online for ages against DT or TPS, you are going to loose.

You wouldn't make turn 1 oath with fow backup vs DT? That's insane!

[Suicideking]

Cutting the merchant scroll may result in problems with me finding bounce, but honestly I haven't had to bounce too much lately.  You have so many options post board that you have a lot of answers for what ever you may come across.\

Crop rotation is never a bad card, and I would definetly play one if I wanted to run a mishras factory, but for me right now it just doesnt do enough.  Thats all.  The fifth orchard is nice, but without orchard I only have 2 ways to play it anyways(trop, and emerald). 

Tps doesn't have a very good match against 16 pieces of disruption, and DT is better but you need to be as aggresive as possible in that match.

[sigar]

Cutting the merchant scroll may result in problems with me finding bounce, but honestly I haven't had to bounce too much lately.  You have so many options post board that you have a lot of answers for what ever you may come across.\

Then why not just cut the bounce?

Crop rotation is never a bad card, and I would definetly play one if I wanted to run a mishras factory, but for me right now it just doesnt do enough.  Thats all.  The fifth orchard is nice, but without orchard I only have 2 ways to play it anyways(trop, and emerald). 

Not counting fetch ofc!

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

If you sit there holding negate mana online for ages against DT or TPS, you are going to loose.

You wouldn't make turn 1 oath with fow backup vs DT? That's insane!

I definitely said i would. and I'm not advocating you hold on to control and do nothing, I'm advocating  playing lock pieces, specifically tps. From my testing with dt its a lot of feeling the match out, seeing where they are in terms of their game plan.

[Wise]

Hmm it looks really good, I may just have to test this list, though my question is Thoughtseize over Duress, Why? When have you found it to be advantageous to take a creature from your opponents hand? (especially in oath) I can see how there might be precedence to run it now that there is little bounce (no tidespout) for Goblin Welders, this seems like the only creature I would want to take, maybe whats your experience?

p.s huge fan of impulse, glad everyone else will be on the bandwagon now ahaha

[Nehptis]

I'd also like to hear your thoughts on the ideal Duress to Seize ratio.

3/4 Seize...2 Seize / 2 Duress...3/4 Duress?

My thinking is that Seize > Duress in Oath.  Unless you are at extremely low life or are very certain that your opponent is holding a MisD and you don't want to lose a card then I never find myself saying...damn I wish this was Duress.  But, how often does the MisD situation arise...very infrequently?

And usually you can throw the low life scenario out, too.  Since, 99% of the time you are going to play Seize/Duress ASAP.  You'd have to because the longer the game goes on the more likely that a COTV for 1 has come out.

Seize or Duress will both remove the noncreature spell.  But, those times when you have the Duress and are facing a game changing creature not having the Seize could be costly.

Also, kudos on Negate.  It's the perfect Counterspell for Oath.  It could be further argued that 4 Seize perfectly fits the only gap left by Negate which is why Seize should be run over Duress.  But, again I'd like to hear your thoughts on Seize vs. Duress in this build.

[Suicideking]

Ive been running 4 thoughtseize but I wish one was something else a lot of the time.  But basically, it does plug the negate gap.  Magus o the moon while unlikely to see play does wreck you, meddling mage is easier to deal with, but again inconvienient. 
 
I have had one thoughtseize misdirected but it didnt really matter, but if theyre using pitch counters to deal with it you stay even.  I tend to stick with the idea that life isnt really an issue in vintage, but if you are in a combo heavy metagame, run duress to make them have to storm higher.

[Tha Gunslinga]

So all you'd do to the main is cut Merchant Scroll for a second MisD?

How was the sb?  Did you ever wish you had access to Extirpate?  Was Arcane Lab good? 

[playkenny]

Just an update for Oath fans:

Just won a mini tourney with the list (13 players). Only changes were to the SB and a 3 Sieze, 1 Duress split, which was very good actually! On scroll, all I can say is scroll has been good so far - even though 90% of the time your tutoring for permission, 10% its for something like impulse (burned recall aready) when in top deck wars or something like that.

I was getting hi 5's for negate all round...good card.

[Nehptis]

More Negate hype...if Tezz becomes a popular deck then Negate can also counter him...nice!

Unfortunately, for Oath it seems that with that new instant YBargain-esque card spoiled everyone is going to be playing Storm Combo.

[Wise]

and with the anti-library search artifact they will be playing shop too!

[Suicideking]

and with the anti-library search artifact they will be playing shop too!

Fantastic I love smashing shops.  Anti search cards dont scare me.

[Wise]

hehe I wasn't saying anti search will hurt oath, hell oath only searches for more lands anyways

[Arsenal]

So has Hellkite Oath obsoleted Tyrant Oath?  If so, I don't understand why.  I don't see any Tyrant Oath decks placing, and the Oath decks I do see in results is Hellkite Oath.  Why is this?

[Harlequin]

The restriction of Gush was a beating for not only GAT, but for TSOath as well.  The power of Tidespout is messured by the number of playable spells I have at this moment.  Gush was perfect for ensuring that you had at least one playable spell, and often led down a chain of playable spells.  Oath players want one thing: To limit the number of times you need to pass the turn after you cast oath.  Hellkite changed the beats plan from 3 times with Angels, to 2 times.  Tidespout with Gush was basically 1 time... but without gush its just to random.

[senpai]

I'm having a real problem against landstill, is anybody else having this problem too?

[mistervader]

Hi, I was just wondering if it's advisable to cut the Chalices if I only have one Mox Sapphire, one Ancestral, and one Black Lotus as my power. I feel that I am being severely constricted by Chalice because I can't drop them fast enough, and there aren't too many combo decks in my meta, since we're a relatively underpowered meta. (No proxies.)

[Suicideking]

I never cut chalice because even setting it @1 with two lands turn two can be important.  However, If you think it would be better as something else go for it.

[Kiriyuu]

This list is obviously great, though now it's available has anyone tried Empyrial Archangel over simic sky swallower in the sideboard?

Cheers.

[Suicideking]

Simics are easier to cast but if you have an aggro heavy metagame you have to rock the Archangels.  They have kept me from losing so many games.

[mistervader]

Progenitus is strictly better than Simic, though, IMO.

[VorpalBunnyDuby]

@ mistervader: Thats a very constructive comment. Care to give any reasons why?

[neotrophy]

I think the reason that no reasoning was given is that it's simply not true.  Progenitus does not fly, possibly making it less useful defensively, and is probably the hardest creature to hard cast that has ever been considered for Oath (or ever printed?).  So it cannot be "strictly" better.

I think that it's probably better than SSS though.  Those two factors don't really take away from the fact that it's 10/10, untargetable, immune to damage, unblockable, and if it dies, gets shuffled back into you library, quite possibly to come back the next turn.

I think that Empyrial Archangel and Progenitus are both superior options to Simic Sky Swallower.  Empyrial Archangel is a little hard to cast, but the ability to severely hamper the ability of many decks to win, while still attacking seems to indicate that it's a better choice when concerned about defending, and having Oath shut down.

As for Progenitus, if your major concern is dropping a creature on the board that's as hard to kill as possible and beats pretty darn hard, this is your guy.