[Deck] Post Brainstorm Restriction Slaver

[LotusHead]

First I've heard of Strategic Planning was well, this week.  Was this card tested with the legality of Portal a few years ago, or was 4 Brainstorm 4 Thirst for Knowledge just too much goodness for Slaver decks to consider Strategic Planning?

8 Thirsts does indeed be good.  Did this card really just slip through the cracks all this time?

Lastly, the Wastelands in the board are genious, do you side them in versus everything but Island.dec?

Just curious (and congrats on your finish).

Lastly, I like that newer players are getting hardcore feedback from The Vintage Elite. 

[bisamratte]

Ideas unbound isn't cardadvatage. T4K is.
What do you want to cut for 4 Ideas? If you got the Slots you really want to play Intuition-AK instead of Ideas.

In my opinion Stategic planning is much better than Ideas. You get no carddisadvantage but more cards in your gy.
I think the only cards that are worth carddisadvatage in Controlslaver are Tutors, but not Ideas Unbound.

[Zombie Shakespeare]

Planning is a cantrip and lets you dig for what you need.  It sort of emulates Top or Ponder but has a much better effect than either in the deck since it always clears out the junk AND it loads your yard.

Was Compulsive Research ever a consideration for the deck over Strategic Planning? It seems like it would be a little better at optimizing your hand albeit slower.

[Eandori]

Lastly, the Wastelands in the board are genious, do you side them in versus everything but Island.dec?

Just curious (and congrats on your finish).

Was this directed at me?  I was mentioning earlier how I use wastelands in the sideboard.  Yeah, they get boarded in versus many decks.  But not all.  Back when I made that slaver list and was EXTENSIVELY testing against the known field in 2005-2006 I would say that wastelands went in game 2 against at least 50% of the field.  They won me games, it was great.

I'm not really a fan of either Strategic Planning or Ideas Unbound.  Entirely for the reason of Sorcery.  At least the way I play slaver is a reactive control deck that will suddenly turn on a dime and slaver lock when the moment is right.  My control role is SEVERLY diminished if I can't respond with Trickbind/ManaDrain/Brainstorm/REB/Plow/Disenchant etc.

Now about this statement...

If you aren't a master Slaver pilot such as Rich Shay, the Crucible lock can help finish games, but you could always run the new Trisk instead and have the same effect.

No way, NOT the same effect.  Slaver lock with Pentavus or Triskelavus is MUCH more difficult then with Crucible.  You need 2 welders instead of 1, you need Mindslaver and Trisk/Pent in the yard (or hardcast for 7...) where with crucible you only need Slaver + it in the yard or 3 mana to hardcast, and you need 5 or more mana compared to 4 with Crucible.  THAT is much easier.  Easier slaver lock = more threatening win condition.  If I have 4 mana, a welder, and a crucible on the table then one more TFK can win the game.

[KnowmaD]

First I would also like to say thanks for all the helpful feedback from more experienced players. I originally thought thats what this place was for until I got
ignored a few times. Whatever. Playing competent people makes a much better game though.

Second, Control slaver (an other variants) is not one of the builds I play a lot. It is however by far one of my favorites. So I try to fallow an feel I have decent game (modesty) when I do play it. Not the best, which is why i'm here.

With strategic planning, does anyone ever dump things that you do not want to? I don't see it clearing out junk when I can't chose the cards on top. Some times this is a factor with me an the ideas, but its not often. Usually it's what I want to dump or I win.  If I win there is zero card disadvantage. Because of the disadvantage possibility of this card I have never ran it as a four of,  another nice thing about S. P.
 I don't like planning as much without brainstorm. At least run a top or two with it.

?Is taking one card and replacing it with one bomb a disadvantage? I know you lose the next draw an that is -1card but..
Is the color the reason for  merchant scroll over vamp?  I can see scroll because it gets thing straight to hand in time of need. It still seem more narrow to me.

Here is the newer list I play from time to time.

    WeBeMad slaves

3-flooded Strand
2-polluted delta
3-volcanic island
2-underground sea
2-island
2-wasteland
1-strip mine
 
5-mox
1-black lotus
1-mana crypt
1-mana vault
1-sol ring

3-goblin welder
2-trinket mage
1-sundering titan
1-platinum angel

1-mindslaver
 
4-force of will
4-mama drain (who's your daddy)
1-rack an ruin
1-tormod's crypt
1-engendered explosives

1-ancestral recall
1-brainstorm
1-fact or fiction
1-gifts ungiven 
1-mystical tutor
1-demonic tutor
1-vampiric tutor
4-thirst for knowledge
2-ideas unbound
1-sensi's diving top
1-timewalk
1-tinker
1-yawgmoth's will

sb
3-red elemental blast
2-trickbind
2-gorilla shaman
2-pithing needle
1-duplicant
1-triskelavus
1-jesters cap
1-tormod's crypt
1-aether spellbomb
1-rack and ruin


I sound like a record but I have not had problems other than ideas being a sorcery. Plus being underestimated allows me to slip it throw counterspells all the time. Which is a big advantage.
With that said Ideas Unbound is far better in combo than control. Again, when you win there is no card disadvantage at all.
Compulsive Research is cool too.
                                                                          Knowmad the wiz

Ps. Is bazaar of baghdad unplayable?

[Eandori]

Hey Knowmad

Your list seems pretty good to me.  I'm not a fan of sorcery based draw in a deck with drains/reactive spells.  It really fights against the intended nature of the deck.  If you are tapping out early game for a sorcery you are NOT open to react with drains etc.

Also, you are playing a strip mine and 2 wastelands main deck.  You are also playing search lands.  Dude, just try the deck with Crucible and an artifact land.  Seat of the Synod if Gorilla Shaman is not huge in your area.  If he is, use Darksteel Citadel.  I've explained it enough times in other places, Crucible has so much synergy with this deck it's amazing.  Even your discard based draw spells become better.  It speeds up slaver lock immensely, fixes mana, gives alternate win paths, etc.  People even play with less then 4 welders these days... and crucible is a slaver lock with only 1 welder needed.  It just... works.

LoA also will win you games against other control decks.  But if your meta is big on decks that are hurt by wasteland... I can see Wasteland main deck instead of LoA being better.  Still though, I don't see LoA in your deck or board.  It wins games.

I also don't see Tolarian Academy.  It's huge, and I don't believe it's "win more" at all.  If you play Yawgmoth's will then combo-out requires mana.  The Academy does that in spades.  It also fuels huge early game wins.  I don't think I have ever even sideboarded the Academy out, it simply hits too hard.

mana vault?  Never really liked that in my testing.  I would swap that for the Tolarian Academy.

Glad to see you are packing the trickbind... it's huge against many decks.

[KnowmaD]

  Thought I killed a thread again

Post gush I started throwing waste effects in all sorts. I'm not sure the exact reason for the Tolarian Academy as the final cut at the time. I love this card an its in most of my blue so lets just say that it was a gut feeling.  The facts of the matter is lots of other people are too (d2) playing things that want to ruin my day. Which means less things to play with and that is not good news for the Academy.  Also I always think I'm going to miss it which usually is furthest thing from my mind once I start playing. On the other hand. I love this card.

The same basic principle goes for the Library of Alexandria. I honestly didn't  think about it in my side bored.  Thanks. I was looking for something. The aether bomb was cute an all but sub par, unless I start seeing darkman all up in my face again. Chalice of the Void was one of my other thoughts for this slot.

I have been a big proponent of Crucible of Worlds since it was spoiled. I was racking my brain on how to get it in and 61 cards is blasphemy.  Me thinks the mana vault is a good idea mate.  I like vault a lot more with the Academy.  I am not sure if I need a land lock but if i do it'll be like this.

 -2 Wasteland
+1 Ghost Quarter
+1 Darksteel  Citadel 

While i'm on the subject, Ghost Quarter kicks ass an I was thinking of axing the wastes for them anyways.

So far , -1 Mana Vault +1 Crucible of Worlds.
                                                                                             
One more thing. I am so sick of Strategic Planning an I haven't gotten around to testing it. Its only been a few days an already the troglodytes are fallowing suit.  In some decks sure but some people are putting that junk in things that can't even use the cards potential. Yep, past my bed time.
                                                                                                                                     
                                 
                                                                                                                                   Later
                                                                                                                               Knowmad
                                                                                                                                     

[ScottHatch(EYSPG)]

I like the build, but I have three REALLY big questions about it, that I'm sure you can answer, seeing as youve playtested it:

1) FoW - What are you pitching the most often? It seems like the only things that will really pop up alot are powerful draw cards and such.  Seeing how heavy black and artifact are being played in the deck.

2) Dark Confidant - Yes, this card is gorgeous.  No doubt in anyone's mind.  But do the heavy artifacts have a tendency to smash out your life?

3) How well does it fair against fast aggro decks?  I mean... With Confidant on board... Does getting smashed for 6-11 second or third turn end the game? Duress doesnt really catch the big and fast creatures. Maybe putting something in the can catch creatures, in the board, should be looked at.

[hauntedechos]

I've been struggling with the decision of:  Long.Dec or  Slaver.Dec?  I was just getting back into Vintage when Slaver, Long, Gifts were the big boys.....and I used U/W/b Fish as my re-entry deck.  Now I have a chance to replay that era...with a deck that can win.  I put Long.Dec aside as I think that I would be prone to too many poor decisions in game, even though I did quite well with Gush.StormDeck.

There has been talk on how great Strategic Planning is in Control Slaver (and other decks that people are trying to cram the card into) and also some talk from the nay sayers that would have us belive that it further plays into the weakness of Slaver, that is the 'Yard.  I would ask the community for the feelings on Strategic Planning in testing, tournament play and in concerns to how the card plays out with yard hate in games 2 and 3.

On another note, I know that this topic has been debated before, when Slaver was first being refined and born:  Entomb, pros and cons.  My initial thought is that Entomb allows us to make fast plays for little mana investment.  For that reasoning I cannot see why it is not included in Control Slaver.  When I look at the loss of Brainstorm, for it's tricks in hiding bombs and it's digging effect, it seems to me that an instant speed tutor that puts exactly what you want into the bin for Welder...would be some good.

I am hoping that the discussions on Control Slaver would pick up, even though I know one could just hit the archives, I think that discussing a major archtype as it is relevent is a good thing.  To start things off, I am going to offer my current list for discussion, criticism and possible starting points for others looking at the deck.

5 Moxen
black Lotus
Lotus Petal
Mana Crypt
Sol Ring
3 U.Sea
3 Volc Island
3 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand(it is the only other fetch that I own)
Tolarian Academy...25 Mana Sources

4 Goblin Welder
2 Mind Slaver
1 Pentavus
1 Triskelion
1 Tormods Crypt
1 Dsc

1 Tinker
1 Yawgs Will
1 Ancestrall recall
1 Time walk
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Entomb
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Strategic Planning
4 Thirst for Knowledge

4 Force
4 Drains
1 Echoing Truth

SB (one could talk about it, however I've always seen it as a meta dependent issue)

It would be interesting to me to hear from the great players and innovators of Slaver about the Entomb issue as well as where Slaver needs to put it's attention to keep up in the top tables.  I've seen that the early game is quite the issue when looking at Long matches and Fast aggro.  It is somewhat for these reasons that I think one could benifit from the use of Entomb.

To Illustrate the issue with fast aggro; Entomb enabled Turn 1 Welder, (lacky hits play for my opponent as I did not have Force) followed by turn 2 Entomb for Trike, weld in and contol the board, leaving UU up for Drain...which I needed against the Recruiter that was going to come down.  I don't see this play being possible by tapping out for a Thirst and hoping that I draw into trike 3 down.  Certainly Goblins is not enough of an argument to include Entomb, unless you face alot of it in your meta, however it's just an illustration as to what is possible.  I also recognize that the card cannot stand on it's own two feet (and that might be the breaking argument against it), requiring an active Welder to be relevent.  However, once again Slaver needs something to help it's early game when you aren't holding Drain and UU combos or Foce and U card that you wouldn't mind parting with, in your opening hand.

Again I understand that the discussion was had many years ago.  However we've since lost 3 Brainstorms and while Gifts and Fact are good for the deck, I think that the speed and low mana cost of Entomb are much more relevent today and certainly worth re-examining.


Just as a thought:
Crack lotus BBB, tap a Sea for B Entomb Slaver into bin, replay lotus weld in Slaver (tapping moxen/crypt for mana first), crack lotus for xxx and activate Slaver.

Rare that it would happen, however once again, how else could you do this in an early game vs Long?  Could you be on the play and Long has Chain of vapour for your welder? yes, of course.


thanks
Mike.

[hauntedechos]

The case for Control Slaver in 2008.

Ok, so we are now in the middle of a replay of 2005 / 2006 right?  Steve Menendian has stated that it isn’t the decks that are exciting (“we’ve already done this”), it’s the innovations and the details that will have to keep the Vintage players into the game. So let’s look at these innovations and details.  The current banned and restricted list is a good starting point, especially looking at the draw and can trips getting the axe.  The effect of this offering by the DCI was to blow up the innovation and return of classics alike and rewinding the clock to 2005 / 2006 decks.  The details of the effects that the B/R list has and had, continues into this revisiting of a past meta game.  When one looks at Control Slaver (or any Slaver build really), the lost of Brainstorm means that protecting a bomb from a Duress turn one is pretty much a thing of the past.  Looking at recent tourney results with write ups has made this clear to me.  For a deck that has a slow early game, that’s not something to shrug off.  This loss of the can trips reliability is felt across the board really, however I’m trying to keep the bulk of this opening pertaining to Control Slaver.
   Seeing this, the Portal card, Strategic Planning was employed and blind sided the tourney in its first showing in Control Slaver.  The result of this was the sky rocketing value of the card, from twenty dollars (U.S.) to one hundred dollars in the span of the length of the tournament!  When one looks at the function of the card in Control Slaver, the card seems fairly sound.  However since then, issues have been raised with the card.  For one, the card can force the pilot to make decisions he or she really didn’t want to make.  For example, if the cards revealed are all or partially relevant, then what goes into the bin and what do you keep?  This can become a somewhat pain full decision to have to make, when deciding between building your mana base and dumping bombs and or draw spells.  Another case against this card is games two and three, where the typical ‘yard hate will be boarded in against you.  At this point your supplemental draw will be either dead, or working against you should they board in Ley lines, Crypts, Plannar Voids etc.  As a final stake into the heart of this over priced card, is the fact that it is Sorcery speed, not exactly what one would want in Slaver. 

         On the flip side, Strategic Planning does dig and it does pitch and in the event that you have an active Welder in play; there are times that the card you keep is decent and it dumps a robot / Slaver into the bin.  The positive aspects to the card are fine and good, however situational cards are not something that a control deck of any kind wants.  We need to find rock solid draw and we need to up the casting speed of the card.  This would invariably bring us even further back to 2005 / 2005 with the use of Night’s Whisper.  Night’s Whisper addresses the issue of casting speed and hard decisions to make with Strategic Planning.  The issue with Night’s Whisper is not that it takes two points of life from you – which can be debatable when looking at the art of control and winning/protecting percentages -  The issue (for me) is that it isn’t blue.  I’ve been told that Control Slaver is a deck that is always looking out for more solid blue cards and that seems like solid thinking to me.  On the other hand, Night’s Whisper should be able to keep the blue cards coming whilst providing card advantage – a known staple of control decks – throughout the game(s).  From this aspect of thinking, the fact that it isn’t blue in and of itself is not so terrible; but what of the fact that we are now adding in more black beyond Demonic Tutor?  The mana base of Control Slaver is something that I’ve grown to love in my limited piloting.  Three to four basic Islands are rock solid to control the game until I need a red source for a Welder.  The ability to shrug off Wastelands takes some of the “ouch” from the average Fish game plan, which is an important deck to be mind full of. 

         With the loss of Brainstorm, there is a call for an increase of mana sources within Control Slaver.  With that increase, comes the ability to add reliability to the base, while enabling the inclusion of a few more black cards.   Another way of looking at the issue is that Night’s Whisper adds such a reliable supplement to your draw engine, one really should make provisions and adapt to its inclusion.  I personally include Lotus Petal in my list for this very fact: increased mana base stability.  The inclusion of six fetch lands should also make choosing basic Island or Underground Sea or Volcanic Island less of an issue as well.  One really only needs Volcanic game one for the Welder and games two and three for Red Elemental Blast, should you be in the mirror and or against another Drain deck.  This is similar to Night’s Whisper, where you really only want to fetch out an Underground Sea when looking to dig or refill your hand after a counter war.  If you are in a position where you really need to dig, then a basic Island isn’t going to help you here as you are more than likely not holding Brainstorm – this is another case to support Strategic Planning: the fact that it’s on colour.

       Now that we’ve looked at the case for and against both Night’s Whisper and Strategic Planning, I think that we need to revisit the early game issue surrounding Control Slaver and Slaver builds in general.  With this we come back to another debate that has been had in the past:  Entomb.  I’ve posted on www.themanadrain.com already on this matter, however since this is a comprehensive thought on Slaver in today’s meta; I will go through it once more.  The above mentioned argument pertaining to the addition of more black cards will be echoed here against Entomb.  Once we get past that fact, we need to look at what it does for Slaver and how it falls short in Slaver.  Some of the good points for Entomb are that it is an instant, it only cost a single black point of mana, it tutors for any of the same targets that you would use Tinker for and it plays nice with Welder.  On the flip side, the card is not blue, yard hate kills the card and the card really only becomes relevant when an active Welder is in play, thusly making the card somewhat situational in nature.  For me, the plays that it enables when I do have an active Welder – albeit a higher percentage game one than games two and three of course and thusly making it a likely card to side out – are pin point accurate and cheaper than Tinker plays.  For illustration purposes, let’s look at the cost to pull off either: Tinker requires two, a blue source and an artifact, while Entomb asks for an active Welder an artifact and a black source.  Now let’s compare and contrast:  Tinker cheats the casting cost of robots and big artifacts.  Entomb can do this with an active Welder.  Thirst digs and enables the dumping of an artifact in the yard, which will then be welded in.  Entomb just puts exactly what you want, where you want it, when you are ready for it.  Thirst is blue and pitches to Force of Will while Entomb is just plain cheaper to cast. 

     Looking at the fact that it is a likely card to side games two and three doesn’t bother me.  In any match up, there are cards that we are going to side out for various reasons and in reality this makes the decision of what to side for something in the board easier.  Let’s look at flexibility in Slaver.  Entomb is something that adds flexibility and outs and while we all understand that Slaver holds out the control game until it can make it’s game crushing play; being able to make that play earlier or even having an additional play to make when Tinker or Entomb is used up is a valuable tool.  I believe that this fact is magnified when looking at the fact that we can no longer use Brainstorm to protect a bomb that gets Duressed out of our hands.  In basic terms; additional bombs that are cheap to cast, effective – albeit non-blue – and synergistic are something that I want for my deck.  When a Welder is active and even in times when there is not an active Welder, Thirst for knowledge is a threat from Slaver for obvious reasons.  Entomb echoes this threat whilst being cheaper and thusly has the potential to soak up a counter or Duress effect.
Slaver needs an increase of potential game effecting plays in the early game.  Night’s Whisper provides us with bullet proof draw at the cost of being black and asking for two life points.  To offset its negative points, Night’s Whisper does its job without creating issues from the very cards it draws for you.  Entomb, while also a black card provides greater threat density, provides plays similar to other cards in the deck whilst being cheaper and pin point accurate.  Entomb provides card quality and advances the pilot to the end game, potentially sooner.


Please note:  this is a starting point to an article that I am writing up for a local shop.  The shop is small and so is the understanding of the Vintage format.  Thoes of you that have been interviewed by me in the past are more than welcome to provide me with possible corrections in thoery and understanding of the arch type at hand.  Also, this article is being written in Word and was cut and paste into TMD, hence the horrible paragraph structure.  Comments and or thoughts and corrections can also me made via PM if some of you prefer.  As always, thoughts and feelings will be kept private with me unless otherwise stated that it is fine for release.  Thank-you for any and all support on the current state of Slaver in the current meta.

Haunted.

[LordHomerCat]

You seem to have left out one of the biggest strikes against Whisper: it makes you fetch a black source right away.  Having to get an Underground right away just to draw some cards sucks, as it opens you up to wastelands and it eats a fetch that you'd like to use on a volcanic later on (to cast welder).

Entomb does not echo Thirst in the least bit without an active welder, and no one in their right mind is going to duress or counter it if you don't have welder active.  It's essentially just discarding a card from your hand for no gain in those instances.

It's also probably important to discuss other aspects of the deck when trying to figure if entomb fits.  Like, the number of welder and number of robots are both really vital to that discussion.  I hate welders and it would take a lot to make me run more than 2.  Similarly, I run as few robots as I can since they don't do anything in the early game.  This means that entomb is even trashier to me, since I don't usually plan to get a welder up until at least the mid game.  These kinds of decisions are really important when trying to figure out if you should run even more super narrow, situational cards in Slaver (which often runs a ton of those already in welders and robots).

[hauntedechos]

@ Lord Homer:  To be honest, I am NOT the most exp. Slaver player.  None the less, there has never been a time that I have fetched out a Sea before a basic Island in the early game, especially to cast Night's Whisper.  As I was saying in the above (and now that I've re - read it a few times, it seems terrible) rough draft of the article, I'm usually looking to resolve a Whisper when I have no more gas in hand and or need to recoup from a counter war.  In turn's one and two (presumably when you are looking to expand your mana base), I always thought that you were looking to get UU up for Drain.  That being the case, why would you be more inclined to spend 1U for Strategic Planning over Night's Whisper when casting either would negate the ability to cast Drain?  In the event that I don't have Drain, I'm a little confused, am I then supposed to fetch and or play two basic Islands simply to avoid Wasteland?  what if I have a Sapphire or Lotus Petal online?  What if I see three lands in two turns and I already have an Island in play?  Please don't take these questions as me being a smart ass.  I presumed that if Slaver can hit a Top4 spot, running Night's Whispers, that it isn't a terrible idea.

In concerns with Entomb.  You are bang on about it being situational.  The card really does need a resolved Welder or Yawg's Will to do anything.  When I said that it echos Thirst, it was in the parameters of having the artifact that you want in the bin.  When you have a Slaver in hand and an active Welder, Thirst is your best friend.  When you have an active Welder, don't have Slaver in hand, Entomb get's it in the bin and assuming that you have B4 available, you've done the same thing only cheaper.  I only meant that Entomb echos the ability to get a large brown card into the bin, certainly not that it is on par with Thirst or that it draws cards.

Haunted.

[bait_bludgeon]

A change in plans for my CS deck. ive decided to take out alot of the one of's in the original CS (cow, strip, fof, wish, etruth, etc.) and added in REBS, DAZE, WHEEL. I cant stand long so thats where most of these card choices came from. The deck overall seems to work the same as a regular Burning Slaver/ CS deck.

WTF? Slaver.dec
2 underground sea
3 volcanic island
2 island
5 fetches
1 tolarian academy

5 moxen
1 lotus
1 petal
1 ring
1 mana crypt
1 mana vault

1 divining top
1 trike
1 sundering jesus
1 slaver
1 tormods crypt

2 welder
2 shaman

4 tfk
4 mana draindizzle
4 fow
3 daze
2 reb
1 b-storm
1 ponder
1 cov
1 tinker
1 a call
1 gifts
1 scroll
1 mt
1 yawg will
1 dt
1 wheel of fortune

[Neonico]

@Knowmad : i was testing allmost the same list since wolrds, With planning instead of ideas Unbound. tested this weak with Courrier's capsule instead of strategic planning and it's really promising.... I was playing Hurkyl's recall instead of Rack and ruin, Gorilla shaman instead of Third Welder, and a merchant scroll, and triskelavus intead of platz. Capsule was really strong for me all the testing session, i really recommend you to test it, especially if you keep on playing 3 welders.