[Deck] Post Brainstorm Restriction Slaver

[bait_bludgeon]

your deck has so many bombs after you revised it. i really like this deck alot. you added a 3rd robot, added gifts and you have 2 shamans, and on top of that this deck is 2 colors instead of 3. to be quite honest this list is awesome. not only that but your SB can make CBS which i love. can you plz tell me how badly this deck wrecks stax, shop, fish? oh im sorry for posting gifts piles with black in them, my bad.

[bait_bludgeon]

OH i completely forgot about my list....

2 goblin welder
1 gorilla shaman
1 Sundering titan
1 triskelavus

5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
2 Sensei's diving top
1 Crucible of worlds
1 Mindslaver
1 tormod's crypt

1 gifts ungiven
1 mt
1 vt
1 dt
1 yawg will
1 tinker
4 TFK
4 FOW
4 Drain
1 merchant scroll
1 brainstorm
1 ponder
1 fire///ice
1 echoing truth

5 fetches (delta or strands)
2 island
1 snow-covered island
3 volcanic island
2 underground sea
1 seat of the synod
1 strip mine
1 tolarian academy

sideboard
4 Llotv
1 trinisphere
3 rebs/pyroblast
2 pyroclasm
1 tormod's crypt
1 shattering spree
1 hurky's
1 rack and ruin
1 ignot chewer (iono why)

[God_Campbell]

My only concern with your list bait_bludgeon, is that you have only 2 goblin welder, which I think is one to few with out 4 brainstorm to dig for them.

I would suggest cutting the Crucible from your deck for the 3rd welder, this will allow you to constantly find that welder. I know that COW is a decent card, but after many play tests with it in the past I have found the card to be underwhelming. But if you want to play just 2 welder then be my guest, it is all up to play style and how much you want to risk with only 2 welder.

Cutting COW would allow you to change that strip mine to a Library of Alexandria perhaps for added card draw, just a thought.

[bisamratte]

Thx I thought about things I read in this thread and goldfished the whole day testing synergies and different constellations. Pps you'll soon see the Deck in Top 8s


To your Deck:
I'd call your Deck a typical American Version :p
It's very interesting how strong your control elements are. It's just the old triangle-relation: Control beats Combo - Combo Beats Aggro - Aggro beats Control.
America's strong Combometa (Ichorid, Long, etc.) forces your to play straighter Control, where I have to pay more attention to Fish and Shops.

I really wondered, as I saw only 2 Welders in your Deck. I got Headaches with my 3, due to STpS and Counters
The other thing is your Maindeckhate against Dredge. Triskelavus and Crypt really wipe the Zombieman
I like Eric Dupuis built best for the "American Meta". He got 4 Duress in his board and 4 Welders main. Together with 2 Slavers he enhances his chance to slaver combo quite early.
#1: http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=852&highlight=1#place1

[LordHomerCat]

OH i completely forgot about my list....

2 goblin welder
1 gorilla shaman
1 Sundering titan
1 triskelavus

5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
2 Sensei's diving top
1 Crucible of worlds
1 Mindslaver
1 tormod's crypt

1 gifts ungiven
1 mt
1 vt
1 dt
1 yawg will
1 tinker
4 TFK
4 FOW
4 Drain
1 merchant scroll
1 brainstorm
1 ponder
1 fire///ice
1 echoing truth

5 fetches (delta or strands)
2 island
1 snow-covered island
3 volcanic island
2 underground sea
1 seat of the synod
1 strip mine
1 tolarian academy

sideboard
4 Llotv
1 trinisphere
3 rebs/pyroblast
2 pyroclasm
1 tormod's crypt
1 shattering spree
1 hurky's
1 rack and ruin
1 ignot chewer (iono why)

The list I played a couple weeks ago is very similar to this (built by Jerry Yang):

3.  Jimmy McCarthy
Control Slaver

3 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
3 Island
2 Polluted Delta
1 Sundering Titan
1 Triskelavus
2 Goblin Welder
1 Gorilla Shaman
5 Moxen
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Sol Ring
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Mindslaver
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Vault
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Brainstorm
1 Fire/Ice
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Echoing Truth
1 Ponder
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Strip Mine
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Demonic Tutor


Personally, I don't like Vamp outside Combo, since losing that card really hurts against other blue decks.  Also, why did you cut Fact or Fiction?  That card is really powerful here, and helps make up for the loss of extra brainstorms to dig for robots (which are at the absolute minimum here).  Lastly, Academy was left out of my list because it is pretty much always just Win More.  Oh ya, and I just figured out what the other missing cards are: Ancestral and Time Walk.  I would highly recommend those.  Honestly, the list I posted played extremely well for me and leaves you with a lot less dead draws and card disadvantage than most slaver lists, since you only have one topdeck tutor, only 2 crappy welders, and the absolute fewest robots you can survive with.  I highly recommend testing out this list.

[bait_bludgeon]

the slaver deck im running used to be burning slaver, until i took out the wish, fireball in sb, and mind twist in sb and added vamp tutor to replace wish. however if i really wanted to i could straight make the deck more slaver like instead of a deck that dicks around and pisses ppl off (even though slaver already does that). its just the slaver deck ive been playing for a while. iono

to bisamratte-i could add a third welder but 2 welders for some odd reason always seems to work. i really only add a 3rd welder when i kno im in a field of workshops and stax.

to lordhomercat- i honestly didnt think about fof until now. i guess i could try it out. that wish spot is pretty much whatever it wants to be. oh and btw i believe jerry is a meandecker and probably used demars burning slaver list and just took out the wish. its almost verbatim.

to god_campbell- like i said to bisamratte above i only add an extra welder when i kno im going into a tourney where the field is mostly stax and shopaggro decks. plz do not ask why im running 2 welders instead of four, its just the way burning slaver works. this deck is one of the decks that to me all slaver decks originate from (thank you mr. demars). iono. oh yea and i add a platz for shop decks too.

Please use capital letters when you're posting. Speaking from experience, people don't take you seriously or answer your questions when you don't put in enough time to write properly. I know this seems a little pedantic but it's in the rules. Thanks for your cooperation.

-Hi-Val

[Eandori]

I started adding Crucible of Words and Gifts Ungiven to my CS builds back in 2005 and I even posted about it here on the Mana Drain.  I had to INTENSELY defend both of those cards as huge additions to control slaver because so many people were bad at playing gifts right, and really never tried them in control slaver.  Here's the thread (and BTW, most of those points I made are still relevant today)

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=26051.30

Having no brainstorm hurts my build of Gifts-Slaver.  I have not yet spent the time to figure out what direction I will go to recover.  But I'm fairly certain I will add 1-2 Gorilla Shamans, maybe remove 1 welder, and fill in the other slots with very cheap spells for early game.

[bait_bludgeon]

There really shouldnt be any reason to defend why I use crucible or gifts, they just flat out pwn. I will however be trying out a more menendianesque slaver deck, the type that that uses DSC and trikey. Will post a list and some other shizz later after Cali.

-To Doug (aka Hi-Val)- Thanks for correcting me.

[Eandori]

You would think I would not have to defend Gifts and Crucible in slaver... but I did!  Some caught how great they were in that deck, and others just argued and argued. 

It was 100% obvious to me that those who argued Crucible and Gifts were bad in Slaver, really never tried it... or didn't play them enough to see how good they were, or were possibly just bad players who made bad gifts piles or missed out on all the cool tech. 

Just like the Platinum Angel.  MOST OF THE TIME I didn't win with her.  I just used her for card advantage.  Get her on the table and suddenly my opponents deck of 60 cards turns into only like 1-3 cards I care enough to stop resolving.  I use my Platinum Angel like a good chess player uses the queen.  Not to do the kills usually, but to force the opponent into a corner... out of options.  As a side note... Platinum Angel just happened to also single handedly win the game against many of the staple vintage decks at the time.  Many didn't have any way of dealing with her.

Anyways, I'm happy to claim that Gifts and Crucible were my additions to slaver. 

[The Atog Lord]

Eandori,

I have, believe it or not, tried Crucible of Worlds in Control Slaver. It wasn't any good. Does it sometimes act like a JMDTome where you draw a land every single turn? Sure. Does it establish a Slaver Lock? That's Win More 99% of the time. But is it worth the spot in the main deck? No. No, it isn't. It can be nice, sure; but if you sleeve up a Gathan Raiders you'll win some games off him. That doesn't mean he's worth including. Everything you include in the deck has a cost -- the opportunity cost of including something else over it. Crucible, in my testing, has not been worth including. That said, if your testing results differ, go with what works for you.

And no, Gifts and Crucible in Control Slaver were not your original ideas. That's all I'll say on that one.

[ashiXIII]

I'm interested to hear how many Welders some of the more experienced/top players (Shay, Smmenen, etc.) would run if there was a tourney they were going to play CS in this weekend. In all the testing I've done with it, 3 has always seemed right, but all of the 'big name' players were running a full set. I'm curious if you still feel that's right w/ all the Long in the current meta?

[The Atog Lord]

If I ran Control Slaver tomorrow, I'd sleeve up a full set of Goblin Welders without any doubt. Control Slaver becomes much faster with a Welder on the table. With him, you're setting up to bring a Mindslaver or Titan online in the early game. Without him, you're hoping to hit Tinker before you die. Welder makes the rest of your deck better. Thirst isn't good enough to play on its own as a draw spell; Night's Whisper draws you the same number of cards for less mana, and Intution/AK might give you more consistent raw card advantage. However, Welder changes all of this. He turns Thirst into a must-counter monster capable of finishing the game immediately. Beyond that, recurring Tormod's Crypt is a strong position to be in. Being able to weld in that Mindslaver despite it being countered is just another use of Welder. And, if the rise of Long means more Stax, then you'll sure want a full set of Welders for that match.

[bait_bludgeon]

Well, Mr. Shay and Mr. Menendian will probably be running 3-4 and as for Mr. Demars he'll run 2-3 (probably 2). Oh and by the way ive cut Cow for fof in my deck. It seems to be just  little bit better (and by a little i mean alot). I do agree with Shay that COW is not really necessary, it seems more of a "win more" type of card. Oh yea and im taking out the strip mine as well for LOA.

To Eandori- I would honestly try to not credit anything as being your own in terms of deck design. It's just not a good idea. Now granted im sure you came up with the idea of running COW and Gifts but youre certainly not the first. Trust me, youre not. And its ok.

[Hi-Val]

I'd run two. I find them when I need to and I don't have problems with not having one around.

And as long as we're taking credit for things, I invented putting Intuition/AK, TFK and Sundering Titans together in a deck. And I also invented post-it notes and the paper clip.

Crucible looks weak in the abstract, but I find that CS mirrors are really determined by who makes their land drops, and Stax matches are also heavily influenced by whether you can play enough lands to outdo them. Crucible helps with both but it's admittedly a dog against combo.

Crucible/artifact land locks are also not Win More. Calling the infinite lock a win-more is a huge flag that the person places more importance on theory than finishing in a 50-minute round. An infinite lock creates a concession in situations where you need to move on to the next game. This is one of those "playing the person" or meta-play considerations, not a "play the cards" consideration.

[Eandori]

Very funny guys

Well, when I started posting about Crucible and Gifts in Slaver, I didn't see anybody else talking about them in that deck, or how great the were.  I didn't see any lists running them at all.  When I posted my findings, I was in some ways attacked for trying to suggest janky solutions to a deck that didn't need it.  So... based on how things go around here I'm not 1 bit suprised that when I step up now and mention that I'm shot down like it never happened.  Par for course on these boards.

Crucible is absolutely NOT win more.  Win More is what you do after you've already won.  Crucible+artifact land enables a slaver lock that is MUCH faster and requires LESS pieces then any other method.  Only 4 mana (one of which is artifact-land), 1 welder, slaver in yard, and crucible.  I fully agree with The Atog Lords comments about active welder on the table makes Thirst more threatening.  Active welder on the table makes many more moves potentially game ending to the other player.

Crucible not only gives the easiest slaver lock, not only adds card advantage, not only gets around mana denial, not only fixes mana colors, not only can potentially lock somebody in a crucible+strip mana denial, but Crucible also adds more options to Gifts/Thirst/TFK.  I'm sorry but if you call Crucible "win more" then you're not using it like I am.  Because that card helps me fight to GET ahead so I can win.  Perhaps in your build it does not help much... but in mine it was a night and day difference.

Just a final note, I have a few meta game calls that I do for my build based on the meta in my area.  But most of the big Control Slaver wins in major tournaments have been versions extremely close to my build.  I'm not at all claiming anything other then Gifts and Crucible WORK in that deck, and my build is similar to the ones that have won.

[bait_bludgeon]

Putting cow and strip back in because i just realized how bad it was with fof and loa lol.

-Btw im stupid for thinking of cow and strip as win more i realized that it actually needs to stay in my CS.

[srancour]

What robots do most of you use? And how many?

I have been tweaking my combinations around.  I personally go with 3 robots myself.  This weekend I'm playing with Platinum Angel, Triskelion and Triskelavus.  My sideboard has Duplicant and Sundering Titan in it as well.

In regards to two specific robots, what do you guys prefer?  Pentavus or Triskelavus.

For Pentavus, I like the option to remove all the counters and make him a 0/0 and weld him back into play fully loaded.
For Triskelavus, I like the fact that he flys and his tokens can shoot for 1.

Thoughts...

[Hi-Val]

If you don't play Sundering Titan maindeck, you will lose to Control Slaver and Long all day. Most of the time, those matches are won on blowing up 2-3 lands and riding the Titan to victory.

[zeus-online]

I like:
Sundering titan
Triskelavus
1-2 Mindslaver
0-1 Memory jar

But there's plenty of other good options.

/Zeus

[Pomaxx]

Triskelion
Sundering Titan
Mindslaver

[Shock Wave]

Can someone please elaborate for me, since I am not a Control Slaver player, why you would want to run more than 1 Mindslaver? I've seen lists running 2, and to my mind, the upside of being able to pitch it more often with TFK is far outweighed by the problem of it being a dead draw more often.

[Eandori]

- I have ran 2 mindslavers because when I played with 1 I found myself CONSTANTLY getting into situations where I needed/wished there was another.
- Beyond that, people often assume you only have 1.

Now, without brainstorms to shuffle one in hand too early away... I will probably go back to 1 main deck.  It was indeed a dead card sometimes, but brainstorms fixed that and now they are gone.

Putting cow and strip back in because i just realized how bad it was with fof and loa lol.

-Btw im stupid for thinking of cow and strip as win more i realized that it actually needs to stay in my CS.

  I'm not sure I followed this.  loa = Library of Alexandria and fof = Fact or Fiction?

If you play crucible in slaver, I believe that strip is an auto-add.  Just like if you play black mana... add yawgmoth's will and demonic tutor.  I have won MANY games simply because I played an early crucible with fast mana and kept my opponent playing early game with recurring strip.  It's one of those easy sacrifices that I was able to make and occasionally wins games.

Another note to that, my sideboard has 3 wastelands and when I play against decks like dragon, ichorid, and Stax the strip+3wastelands are always big plays.  I would say the BEST response to a first turn Mishra's Workshop + Trinisphere is a strip mine for their shop.  Etc.

My robots were... Plat, Trisk/NewTrisk, Pentavus, 2 Mindslaver with variance on the creatures based on meta.  After brainstorm-gone I think I'll remove 1 slaver and I usually play NewTrisk any time Pentavus would have been good.

[Hi-Val]

Can someone please elaborate for me, since I am not a Control Slaver player, why you would want to run more than 1 Mindslaver? I've seen lists running 2, and to my mind, the upside of being able to pitch it more often with TFK is far outweighed by the problem of it being a dead draw more often.

One could make a case that having two and four welders means that you're slaving a lot faster and more reliably. In some metagames, I'm sure it's the right call; at the moment, I can't really think of one though but I'm not really trying either.

Brainstorms made it a lot easier to get rid of the second one or the one that shows up at the wrong time...

[Sean Ryan]

As much as I respect Shay's opinion and experience with Slaver there are other valid perspectives.  ForceFieldYou (FFY) popularized Crucible in his Burning Slaver list back in the day with much success. 

I see Crucible as a role player and not a central piece of the deck,  but is one of the many customizable slots you have to work with when designing the deck.  It certainly helps against mana denial strategies and can give you an edge in the mirror if you are struggling there, but it really comes down to the metagame and your skill level.

If you aren't a master Slaver pilot such as Rich Shay, the Crucible lock can help finish games, but you could always run the new Trisk instead and have the same effect.       

[Shean]

I've been playing Slaver for quite some time now.  While I'm not as good as Rich or Doug Linn, I feel very confident in my abilities with the deck.  After two recent tournaments with CS, I have formed some opinions about the construction of it in the current metagame:

1.  I would definitely run Gorilla Shaman.  He is very strong in the mirror match and against Long.  Also, with a Welder in play, almost every time an opponent plays an artifact, its becomes a mox that is eaten shortly thereafter.

2.  Fact or Fiction isn't that great.  Sometimes you can get a broken FoF that wins the game, but it can also provide 4 lands and 1 useful card.  In my list, I was running 1 Sensei's Diving Top and 1 FoF.  I cut the FoF for the 2nd Top.  With the lack of Brainstorms, Top's value increases exponentially.  Also, with approximately 10 shuffle effects, its stock increases further.

3.  2 Mindslavers isn't really necessary right now.  You could, as Doug said, run 4 Welders and 2 Slavers to try to slave earlier, but in my experience, turn 1 Welder, go is a very terrible play against combo.  In the metagame right now, I never feel happy about turn 1 Welder, go.

4.  Crucible + Strip is a viable option.  However, I prefer to run singleton answers in the main, one of which must be cut for Crucible to fit.  I would rather keep my Rack an Ruin, Fire/Ice, and E-Truth as my toolbox cards rather than Crucible.  Also, in the current metagame, I feel that Library of Alexandria is very strong.  I have won multiple control matches simply by getting LOA into play and drawing 2 cards every turn.  If you're running Strip Mine, its very hard to play LOA as well.  On the other hand, Doug made me a believer in Mishra's Factory.  In our match, Factory went for something like 12 dmg and he was able to recurr it to block my Sundering Titan for 4 turns in a row until I answered Crucible.

5.  You must play Sundering Titan maindeck.  Without 7/10, your games against Long and CS are hampered significantly.  The ability to blow up 2-3 lands in either of those matches is incredible.  Not to mention that he deals 7 dmg and if they remove him, he blows up even more land.  He is also very synergistic with Mox Monkey.

[bisamratte]

What robots you'd play then? More opinions pls
I got Pentavus, Angel, Titan, Slaver atm, but i'm missing Trike main (with SB Duplo + Trike).

Btw: I've been testing my Icorid MU today. It's incedable how constant i'm able to win with Crypt, Magus and Platz main.

@fizix: I'm absolutely convinced of playing FoF. It's a 5-card advantege if you are able to use your gy. Even if you only get 1 useful card, you can "mill" 4 crapcards you'd have drawn during your next 4 turns. 4-5 Land piles are btw quite rare with just 14-16 Lands in a 60 card deck

[bisamratte]

Sry, doublepost. Delete pls

[LordHomerCat]

3  Flooded Strand
3  Island
2  Polluted Delta
1  Strip Mine
1  Tolarian Academy
2  Underground Sea
3  Volcanic Island


2  Goblin Welder
1  Gorilla Shaman
1  Sundering Titan
1  Triskelavus

1  Ancestral Recall
1  Black Lotus
1  Brainstorm
1  Crucible of Worlds
1  Demonic Tutor
1  Echoing Truth
1  Fact or Fiction
4  Force of Will
1  Lotus Petal
4  Mana Drain
1  Mana Crypt
1  Mana Vault
1  Merchant Scroll
1  Mindslaver
1  Misdirection
1  Mox Emerald
1  Mox Jet
1  Mox Ruby
1  Mox Sapphire
1  Mystical Tutor
1  Rack and Ruin
1  Sol Ring
4  Strategic Planning
4  Thirst for Knowledge
1  Time Walk
1  Tinker
1  Tormod's Crypt
1  Yawgmoth's Will


 Sideboard

 
1  Engineered Explosives
1  Pyroclasm
1  Rack and Ruin
1  Sower of Temptation
3  Sphere of Resistance
1  Thran Foundry
3  Tormod's Crypt
1  Trinisphere
3  Wasteland

This is what I played in Chicago this weekend.  In 10 rounds of play, not once did I activate or even put Slaver into play.  Sundering Titan and Triskelavus, however, were both incredible as was strip mine.  I don't think I would change a single card in this list if I were to play it again: if you like Brian's type of slaver lists, this deck is nuts.  The only change is -1 Lotus Petal, +1 Mox Pearl, but I could not find a Pearl to play with so I just went with Petal.  It was much much worse.

[KnowmaD]

Strategic Planning is cool. I have skimmed through portal but haven't had much to memory. Even though the mana cost is better, I still like Ideas Unbound. Its ability seems better for win more. The discard three has rarely been a hindrance. It is a factor an makes the card harder to play with. If Strategic planning was an instant this would be a different story. I  will try  S. P. out though before any commitment. The effect could be a lot better in practice. Plus as said the cost is better.

                                                                                                    Knowmad

[LordHomerCat]

Strategic Planning is cool. I have skimmed through portal but haven't had much to memory. Even though the mana cost is better, I still like Ideas Unbound. Its ability seems better for win more. The discard three has rarely been a hindrance. It is a factor an makes the card harder to play with. If Strategic planning was an instant this would be a different story. I  will try  S. P. out though before any commitment. The effect could be a lot better in practice. Plus as said the cost is better.

                                                                                                    Knowmad

Ideas Unbound is awful.  It's just straight up card disadvantage.  I didn't even play Vamp because it's not worth losing a card, so there's no way I would ever play Ideas.  Planning is a cantrip and lets you dig for what you need.  It sort of emulates Top or Ponder but has a much better effect than either in the deck since it always clears out the junk AND it loads your yard.  Ideas Unbound is completely unplayable.