The Mountains Win Again!

[Almighty]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here. I am of the opinion that I need no further help to beat Ichorid. I peel extremely far ahead when i drop a thorn, and I usually force them into a game of attrition should I follow that up with a strip. It is very hard for Ichorid to win if you start forcing them to draw cards naturaly. It is usually at this point that I would crypt them and seal up the game. Trick is, Teeg locks up that game to, as does subsequent thorn effects.

Doesn't matter.  You're still better off with a mix of Relics and Crypts than Relics alone.  Also, consider that Null Rod turns both off.  One of your best answers to combo stops your answer to their Yawg Wills.  At least with Crypt, you can sac it in response to your Rod and not have to leave mana open on subsequent turns.

I board out Null Rod vs. Ichoird. I don't board in Relics vs. Will decks.

It's not all that better to run a mix. Relic beats Chalice@0, which is harder to stop than Cabal Therapy. But it's all a moot point since both Crypt and relic are win more against Ichorid.

[Toku]

Played TMWA in a small (10 person) tourney today. 3-0, 1st place.

Here's my list. I used Smasher's list as a starting point, and made a few changes.

4 Dark Confidant
4 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Aven Mindcensor
2 Jotun Grunt
1 Gorilla Shaman

4 Null Rod
4 Duress
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Path to Exile
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Hide/Seek
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor

4 Lotus/Jet/Ruby/Pearl
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Plateau
2 Scrubland
2 Badlands
1 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand
4 Bloodstained Mire

SIDEBOARD
3 Extirpate
1 Hide/Seek
2 Shattering Spree
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Vexing Shusher
1 Children of Korlis
3 Engineered Explosives


I wanted Scullers because I figured to play against more blue decks than anything else, and they play nice with Canonist. Also, blue decks are why I played Shushers in the board. I added a 3rd Plow effect to shore up the aggro matchup just in case (2/1 StP/Path because I could only find 1 Path...in fact, had I not been able to trade for 1, I'd have been proxying it). To make room for the 3rd Plow, I cut the Thoughtseize, as I felt that was next-most expendable because of the presence of Scullers.


My matches were interesting. I played against a guy playing his EDH stack in round 1. Round 2, I played against Dredge and squeaked it out in 3 games on the back of Wasteland/Extirpate/Jotun Grunt, plus my opponent leaving in a LOT of anti-Leyline cards). Round 3, I played against Tez, and won in 2 extremely lopsided games because of Duress/Sculler into Null Rod.

3 rounds isn't a great metric for success, but I liked how the deck felt in the games I played. I felt like I was forcing my opponents to interact on my terms, and would certainly play it again in a larger field.

My only concern was that at times it felt a touch light on creatures. I would maybe like to jam 1 or 2 more in there.

[smasher]

Toku, glad to see you did well with the deck.

 I've made some more changes recently but I have not had a chance to play in a tournament with them yet. Play testing is going great though. Upped hide/seek to 3 of maindeck because it is great in response to a top deck tutor getting a 2 for 1 out of it. Seeking 1 or 2 cards from many decks just crushes them to a point of not being able to win. If my hand supports a nice mana denial plan Hiding artifact mana has been good as well. Hide is also pretty much the only maindeck answer to oath beyond the few removal spells.

Many decks with dark confidant feel like they should be titled Dark confidant decks. You either resolve one early and have a good game or you don't draw it and lose hastily.
How did you feel playing dark confidant. He seems like one of those cards you just don't think about cutting but the more I test the deck I notice he is usually a mid to late game play and I still have cards in hand when he comes down. In matches versus blue decks if he doesn't come down turn 1 off a black lotus for duress/dark confidant play he usually sits in hand til the game is over or I just don't happen to have anything else to do. With so many tricks this deck runs such as aven mindcensor, hide/seek, pyro/reb's, and creature removal spells all being instant I'd rather sit back on my mana and make plays on opponents turn/ EOT. Basically I don't know if good ol bob should be sideboard for midgame control decks and also another creature to bring in vs random aggro decks just to replace other dead cards.

If you look at all of the lockdown cards in the deck they all do so much more than bob. Aven mindcensor hitting 5-6 fetches, tezz, vamp, mystical, demonic, tinker, merchant scroll, and possibly a few others that see play but not as high in numbers, imp seal, grim tutor, enlightened tutor, gifts, intuition. That is 12-17 cards for aven mindcensor. Then you have canonist which stops yawg's will in its tracks and it stops all the draw spell into countermagic plays. He also lets you resolve instants in response to anything your opponent does without fear of getting countered. Jotun grunt doesn't do as much but he is your clock and still helps on dredge, aggro and anti yawgs will. He also recycles your spells so you can shuffle them back in with fetches. Null rod hits 10 artifact mana, top, key, time vault, among other stuff. Another creature with a lock ability might be able to replace confidant. Was tidehollow sculler good in your testing.

Other changes I have made include removing swords/path for diabolic edicts due to inkwell leviathan and oaths empyrial archangel after they sideboard. I don't like losing the rfg effect for when facing ichorid but diabolic edict can target me to nail bridges anyway so it seems acceptable.

Enlightened tutor has made its way in the deck and it is going to be staying around for a while as its been testing good. grabbing null rod or canonist is pretty good vs a number of decks. it grabs a mox or lotus versus shop decks to help cast spells through their mana denial plan. grabbing a lotus eot to make a busted play next turn is great too such as dropping 2x 2 drops and being able to keep a mana open to red blast.

Tested demonic consultation for a few games after upping other cards I play to 4 ofs but quickly cut it after removing a good chunk of the library more times than not. It wouldnt be as big of a deal but then you look at the mana base. If you hit a couple of your basics that is game over versus wasteland or shop decks. losing a couple duals on top of that can just shut you out of one of your colors far too easy. The card seems great ina 1 or 2 color list but 3 color lists have no business running this card.

Aven mindcensor is a 4 of due to being a better disruption card to a broader range of decks. Canonist is great in certain matchups but pretty much a 2/2 for 2 mana in some matches so he is now down to a 3 of. Since I added enlightened tutor it still feels like I have 4 of them as I can tutor for it when needed. I have upped the duress/thoughtseize count to a 4/3 split to grant me more relevant turn 1 plays. I would like to see one in every opening hand and more than 1 is just great. With 7 I almost always get 1 now.

I'll post my current list after the next tournament. I may have missed a couple changes but listed the ones I felt where relevant to the decks strategy.

-Smasher

[Myriad Games]

Congratulations on your victory, Toku!

Here's my list that I played at Day 2 of TMD Open 13 this past Sunday.

4x Grim Lavamancer
4x Gorilla Shaman
4x Dark Confidant
4x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Sword of Fire and Ice
3x Hide/Seek
4x Null Rod
4x Thoughtseize
3x Diabolic Edict
2x Extirpate
1x Swords to Plowshares
1x Shattering Spree
1x Pithing Needle
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Strip Mine
1x Mountain
1x Plains
1x Swamp
2x Plateau
2x Badlands
2x Scrubland
4x Bloodstained Mire
1x Windswept Heath
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Flooded Strand
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Jet
1x Black Lotus
60

3x Red Elemental Blast
3x Shattering Spree
3x Swords to Plowshares
2x Extirpate
2x Pithing Needle
1x Hide/Seek
1x Diabolic Edict
15

I ended up in 11th place out of 48 players after 6 rounds of Swiss, with my only two losses being to Dredge. I made a horrendous misplay in Game 3 vs. Dredge that cost me a quarterfinals berth, but I had a great time. The deck performed phenomenally against Tezzeret, with Seek being just as good as I remember it being back in the day. In one epic game, I gained 22 life off Seeking out a DSC, Inkwell, and Time Vault over the course of the game. I adjusted the deck at the last minute on the way down to include more creatures and did not regret that decision. The number of tutors and singletons was solid and I had some epic games and a great time playing.

[Toku]

How did you feel playing dark confidant. He seems like one of those cards you just don't think about cutting but the more I test the deck I notice he is usually a mid to late game play and I still have cards in hand when he comes down. In matches versus blue decks if he doesn't come down turn 1 off a black lotus for duress/dark confidant play he usually sits in hand til the game is over or I just don't happen to have anything else to do. With so many tricks this deck runs such as aven mindcensor, hide/seek, pyro/reb's, and creature removal spells all being instant I'd rather sit back on my mana and make plays on opponents turn/ EOT. Basically I don't know if good ol bob should be sideboard for midgame control decks and also another creature to bring in vs random aggro decks just to replace other dead cards.

I liked Bob every time he was in play. In the limited amount of testing I did before hand, the tournament, and the slightly less limited testing afterwards, the worst Bob ever did was get me through a bad section of the deck with no mana. There are times where he kind of sits around against Fishy-style decks, but at the same time, he trades with a lot of opposing guys and digs for kill spells or grunts/fliers (and lavamancers post-board) so I'm not really upset about seeing him against Fish.

[overseer1234]

Here's my list that I played at Day 2 of TMD Open 13 this past Sunday.

4x Grim Lavamancer
4x Gorilla Shaman
4x Dark Confidant
4x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Sword of Fire and Ice
3x Hide/Seek
4x Null Rod
4x Thoughtseize
3x Diabolic Edict
2x Extirpate
1x Swords to Plowshares
1x Shattering Spree
1x Pithing Needle
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Strip Mine
1x Mountain
1x Plains
1x Swamp
2x Plateau
2x Badlands
2x Scrubland
4x Bloodstained Mire
1x Windswept Heath
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Flooded Strand
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Jet
1x Black Lotus
60

3x Red Elemental Blast
3x Shattering Spree
3x Swords to Plowshares
2x Extirpate
2x Pithing Needle
1x Hide/Seek
1x Diabolic Edict
15

I ended up in 11th place out of 48 players after 6 rounds of Swiss, with my only two losses being to Dredge. I made a horrendous misplay in Game 3 vs. Dredge that cost me a quarterfinals berth, but I had a great time. The deck performed phenomenally against Tezzeret, with Seek being just as good as I remember it being back in the day. In one epic game, I gained 22 life off Seeking out a DSC, Inkwell, and Time Vault over the course of the game. I adjusted the deck at the last minute on the way down to include more creatures and did not regret that decision. The number of tutors and singletons was solid and I had some epic games and a great time playing.

Congratz on you finish,

I really like the list, but would it work in a meta where nearly everything is being played?

Previous times  Drain, (Agro-)Shop, and TPS were all there, together with (BUG-)Fish, Ichorid, Oath, and the occasional goblin and homebrew monstrosity's...

Really random meta where everyone just plays his or her (yeas there are girls attending) pet deck, sow...

So would this deck be a good call since every hate deck is like a pet deck to me (big finger to the format and stuf, you know...)

[nineisnoone]

Congratulations on your victory, Toku!

Here's my list that I played at Day 2 of TMD Open 13 this past Sunday.

4x Grim Lavamancer
4x Gorilla Shaman
4x Dark Confidant
4x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Sword of Fire and Ice
3x Hide/Seek
4x Null Rod
4x Thoughtseize
3x Diabolic Edict
2x Extirpate
1x Swords to Plowshares
1x Shattering Spree
1x Pithing Needle
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Strip Mine
1x Mountain
1x Plains
1x Swamp
2x Plateau
2x Badlands
2x Scrubland
4x Bloodstained Mire
1x Windswept Heath
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Flooded Strand
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Jet
1x Black Lotus
60

3x Red Elemental Blast
3x Shattering Spree
3x Swords to Plowshares
2x Extirpate
2x Pithing Needle
1x Hide/Seek
1x Diabolic Edict
15

I ended up in 11th place out of 48 players after 6 rounds of Swiss, with my only two losses being to Dredge. I made a horrendous misplay in Game 3 vs. Dredge that cost me a quarterfinals berth, but I had a great time. The deck performed phenomenally against Tezzeret, with Seek being just as good as I remember it being back in the day. In one epic game, I gained 22 life off Seeking out a DSC, Inkwell, and Time Vault over the course of the game. I adjusted the deck at the last minute on the way down to include more creatures and did not regret that decision. The number of tutors and singletons was solid and I had some epic games and a great time playing.

Congrats! 

Have a gameplay question, was Seeking out a DSC/Inkwell a better idea then grabbing Tinker?  Especially if you saw both in a deck, I would feel Tinker would be the right call since if you grab one they could tinker up the other.

[smasher]

Have a gameplay question, was Seeking out a DSC/Inkwell a better idea then grabbing Tinker?  Especially if you saw both in a deck, I would feel Tinker would be the right call since if you grab one they could tinker up the other.

Depends on your board position and other cards in hand.
If canonist is in play and you are holding an edict or red blast I'd seek out a yawg will or time vault unless you really needed the life gain. You could take the leviathan as well if you had swords/path or another hide for DSC. If yawg will and time vault aren't part of the deck you are facing tinker would work as you should be able to keep them off mana to ever cast either of their threats.

Smasher

[Myriad Games]

And a belated congratulations to James Lee for taking this deck to Top 4 at TMD Open Day 1, out of a field of 113:

4th Place
James Lee
4 Jackal Pup
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Goblin Cadets
2 Gorilla Shaman
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Null Rod
3 Chalice of the Void
1 Mox Ruby
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
6 Mountains
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
4 Tormod’s Crypt
4 Smash to Smithereens
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Volcanic Fallout

Based on the card list, this deck certainly qualifies as The Mountains Win Again, more reminiscent of early builds. James, drop me a PM with your address and I'll send you some TMWA swag as a congratulatory gesture for your victory!

[CodeRedrum]

OK so I have to admit I have been out of the Vintage scene for a while.  A long while.  But it seems to me that these decks would be more effective against the meta (which seems to be blue or dredge with a splash of other stuff) with more REBS, like 8 of them.  Now before you go screaming about dead cards, hear me out.  I think you can fit painters servant in this deck.  If you have a servant and 8 REBS it does become a lot like a grindstone deck, but this gives you an advantage!  IF you get skunked game one and they see a painter early, they WILL sideboard wrong.  8 permanent removal/counter spells is very good against any deck, period.  This thread was started saying that vintage had become a combination of a bunch of blue broken cards and some random win condition.  Although some of those cards are restricted now, with the addition of Tezz that is still pretty acurate.  Also a REB is better than a StP or Path to Exile because it isn't limited to creatures.  You would also have the option of running a singleton Grindstone as an alternate win condition.  I know I have been out of the scene for a while but this seems like a good way to overcome the Island heavy meta. 

[AmbivalentDuck]

It's been a while since I've played with a Hide//Seek in my deck, but I'm curious: what happened to Demonic Consultation?  It looks like an auto-include for any deck unconcerned with RFG-ing key restricted cards.

[smasher]

I'd encourage some testing with demonic consultation as it can be really good. I tested it for a brief period and ended up cutting it due to mana screwing myself. If you don't come up against wasteland very often in your metagame I would think d. consultation is more playable otherwise getting wasted once and rfg'ing a few more lands shuts you out of a color too easy. I am liking enlightened tutor right now and I think I put that one in to replace d. consultation. 3 tutors seems fine and I might try imperial seal if I feel the need for a 4th tutor before going back to consultation.

I'm also testing skeletal scrying and so far it seems really good. I know it's no tutor but being instant it makes for a good play on your opponents EOT. Drawing 2 is often good enough and reasonable to have the 3 mana to do so early on. If you get to mid/late game drawing 3+ is a really nice way to keep threats flowing and keep the game locked down. It helps in the games where you draw a few too many unwanted lands by becoming an even bigger threat. Makes a lotus drawn late game pretty sweet too. Scrying definately fits in the deck better than Yawg will as it takes less mana to have a comparable effect on the gamestate.

[thejinhong]

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Land Grant
4 Seal of Primordium

2 Gorilla Shaman
4 Kird Ape
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Incinerate

4 Null Rod

1 Strip Mine
2 Forest
4 Mountains
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
4 Taiga

Sideboard
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Tormond’s Crypt
2 Pithing Needle
1 Krosan Grip
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Rack and Ruin
2 Oxidize

This was the R/G beats deck I was trying out recently.  I liked it a lot, however I found the lack of counter protection, disruption, or draw to be simply weak. 


I went on to try the following 4 color Sui-black-mountains-win style deck.  Tested the deck vs Oath.  Tested it vs Grim Long. Tested the deck vs various Tezz variants.  I’ve liked its performance against them (did some testing just last night vs mutedequilibrium and Gio at the “Tolar-ian” Academy). 


4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress
1 Demonic Consultation.
1 Necropotence
4 Dark Ritual
4 Dark Confidant
3 Diabolic Edict (or 3 Swords to Plowshares.  Currently leaning towards Edicts)

4 Aven Mindcenscer

4 Tarmogoyf

3 Hide/Seek

4 Null Rod
4 Tidehollow Sculler

4 Badland
4 Bayou
4 Scrubland
2 Swamp
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta

Sideboard
Looking for suggestions.

A few notes
The the deck’s strength comes from the following:
12 hand disruption effects (Duress, Thoughtseize, Tidehollow)
4 artifact nullification effects (Rull Rods)
4 search prevention (Mindcenser)
5 draw engines (Necro, Confidants)
4 mana acceleration effects unaffected by Null Rod.

Demonic Consultation and the lack of Vampiric & Demonic Tutor
It is a very consistent deck.  I noticed decks similar to this list, but I found their weakness was that they included a lot of 1x and 2x cards and a Vampiric & Demonic Tutor for search versatility.  This prevented them from using Demonic Consultation effectively.  It should be emphasized that in this particular deck, Consultation is far more powerful than Vampiric or Demonic Tutor. 

Regarding Swords vs Edicts
At first I was playing the deck with Swords.  However, the current kill cards of the top tier powered decks feature untargetable monsters.  Therefore, I feel that Edict is the superior card choice.   

Hide/Seek
This card is great.  It has killed me several times via Confidant, but its versatility at removing key cards in play and key cards still in-deck is simply amazing.

For a non-powered deck, I like it a lot.   


Pre-board, it has fair matchups vs Tezz, Grim and Oath.
Pre-board and post board, it is very unfavorable vs most Workshop strategies. 

Suggestions for the sideboard would be greatly appreciated.  I would like to use 3x or 4x cards so that I could Consult for them.

[smasher]

@ thejinhong

In the main deck I doubt you consult for your dual lands often. I would go -1 swamp, -2 duals + 3 basics (one for each color.) Windswept heath might be better than P. Delta. Assuming you put in one of each basic these will fetch out everything but badlands and swamp. This will help vs workshops mana denial. Also for shops in the sideboard I have found goblin welder to be amazing. Try him as a 3 of. playing the 4th hide/seek in the board would be fine as well since hiding their threats prevents them from welder tricks. If this isn't enough you could try out some strip/wastes between main/side deck. Nailing their 2 and 3 mana lands after they have dropped down a sphere effect can backfire their entire game plan. Strips will also be critical to having a game versus an ichorid deck.

Canonist in the sideboard as a 3-4 of if you expect much combo. unlike null rod or other threats to combo that are speed bumps, the canonist must be dealt with before they can win outside of tinker for robot plan.

Engineered explosives is a versatile card and I would expect most matches you want to bring it in are when you would already be taking out null rod.

Oath looks like it could be a bit of an issue. main deck you have 3 hides for oath and 3 edicts for their oathed creatures. I guess if you ran the engineered explosives that would be another option to nuke oaths

At some point I'd try and fit in 3-4 red elemental blasts to the side as well before you hit your 15 cards. Bringing these in along with the canonist allows you to sit back with canonist in play and beat them to death. The only spells you need to counter at this point would be bounce on canonist or tinker.

With the high number of discard you run it seems extirpate would work well out of side.

Good luck

-Smasher

[smasher]

Card Name: Fight to the Death

Mana Cost: RW

Converted Mana Cost: 2

Types: Instant

Card Text: Destroy all blocking creatures and all blocked creatures.

How does everyone feel about this card over other removal options? Currently path to exile and swords to plowshares are mostly pointless due to tinker into inkwell leviathan and oath into empyrial archangel. This leaves us running removal that does not target. Diabolic edict being instant seems like the best we have. Does the new card fight to the death have any use?

Lets compare diabolic edict with fight to the death.

Fight to the death

Pros:
Can't be stopped by misdirection or commandeer
Helps us deal with aggro matchups which are difficult due to our guys having 1 and 2 toughness vs their 3+ toughness guys.
Kills any tinkered robot including shroud and being cast prior to damage on the stack even stops the trample damage that would happen.
You always kill the guy you want since they cant sac off a small guy like mishra's factory/gorilla shaman/goblin welder over the robot.
You can swing in with the team, gets some damage through, and still kill your opponents creature they thought were sure to live.
After you resolve this card once then your opponent will play around it possibly letting through damage they shouldn't


Cons:
Can't sit back and wait to EOT your opponent. It's almost strickly worse than an instant and sorcery since it can only be cast during combat.
Never hits the guys that don't attack or block like goblin welders.
Requires a creature on your side of the table to cast.
Weaker than edict when facing ichorid since you can't instant speed remove their bridges like d. edict does.
If your opponent doesn't block it can be difficult to get rid of a flyer unless you play a flyer and have it on the table soon enough to matter.
Requires you to always lose one more card than your opponent. Each creature blocking/blocked plus fight to the death.

Probably missing some positives and negatives for the card but does it look good enough to play test?
I have not had time to test it yet. I will give some feedback after doing so.

[bebx]

Hi I'm new here in TheManaDrain, I would like to share as well my deck to the topic. This is actually the first time that I pilot a deck that made me landed Top 8 three consecutive times since I created the deck inspired from Legacy's Dragon Stompy and Extended's All-In-Red. I have already made some changes on the deck after it's first Top 8 apperance last Feb 22, 2009 (http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1010). This is my current list w/c ended Top 3 last April 18, 2009 Vintage Tourney (http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1039):

Mainboard:

2 Gorilla Shaman
3 Greater Gargadon
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Ingot Chewer
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Simian Spirit Guide

1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Umezawa’s Jitte

2 Blood Moon
3 Pyrostatic Pillar

4 Dead/Gone
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Incinerate

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
11 Mountain

Sideboard:
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Null Rod
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Shattering Spree
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast

Our meta here in Manila Philippines is almost the same as in the U.S. - Ichorid, Tez, Fish Variants (BUG, U/W, Mono U), Stax (MUD, Red) RG/RGW Beats,

Combo (TPS, GWS, ANT), Oath, BW/Mono Black Control, Dreadnaughts, Painter and Goblins.. Belcher and Landstill is no longer active here in Manila.

The deck seems to fit to our Meta as it has some control and answers to certain decks. From the three tourneys I joined I was able to beat Ichorid (2-0), Mono Black COntrol (2-0), RGW Beats (2-0), GWS (2-0), Oath (2-1), TPS (2-1) and Mono Blue Fish (2-0). I lost to MUD, BUG Fish and another TPS build. I haven't face Goblins (which I think I'm going to lose), Tez, ANT, Dreadnaught and Painter decks.

Because of the new toy of Tinker - Inkwell Leviathan, I'm going to replace Dead/Gone to Aether Membrane. I think that this red creature is perfect IMO as an answer to Leviathan, not only for Leviathan but for other creatures as well even flyers. I'm planning to take out SOFI (for I haven't been able to draw/use this card almost all the time) and make room for 3 Puncture Blast (Not sure about this, what do you think guys?). My updated decklist would now be:

Mainboard:

2 Gorilla Shaman
3 Aether Membrane
3 Greater Gargadon
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Ingot Chewer
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Simian Spirit Guide

2 Umezawa’s Jitte

2 Blood Moon
3 Pyrostatic Pillar

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Incinerate
3 Puncture Blast

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
11 Mountain

Sideboard:
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Null Rod
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Shattering Spree
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast

May Peace be with you All!

[zabuza]

Try sculpting steel. Is much better than membrane and helps you against inkwell and any artifact deck.
I´ll play goblin welder too to combo with shaman, and perhaps take out incinerates or so. 

[merfolkOTPT]

Hey I am playing a b/w version so maybe not even relevant.  It seemed like the only reason I was playing red was for fanatic, and sideboard cards, and black and white hit most of the same things that red do.  That being said, I have lost some game main against oath and Stax.  I think Stax mostly has had to do with god draws. 

Oath, however, is a really tough deck now with Progenitus.  Basically, the only outs that I have thought of are seal of cleansing and edict.  Since we can't block Progenitus that new card isn't super useful.  If there is a card that will actually help this matchup in red I will instantly go back to playing red.  I just don't know that there is one.  Any help side or main would be great.

[bebx]

The match up I had against Oath was actually the sphinx + progenitus version of oath. I won the first game via turn 1 magus of the moon. My opponent was waiting for a basic island (to bounce my magus), petal or an emerald to play oath, lucky for me he was not able to draw them. On our second game, turn 1 oath w/ orchard sealed the game for him. Game 3 was pure luck on my side. My opponent kept his hand and I did as well. I can actually drop a 1st turn magus of the moon but I was afraid that he might counter it. I played a mountain and pass the turn. On his turn he played an island a petal then drop an oath. We played draw-go until I drop gargadon but he pithing needle it on his turn. I later drop a pyrostatic pillar, it gives some damage on his side. Later on he was able to get the orchard then on his next turn he reveal the sphinx and choose to target himself for the 10 life as he was down to 8 life because of pillar, fetch and some thoughtseize. On the next turn he reveal a progenitus, played a vampiric tutor still on his upkeep (I think he search for timewalk) w/c made his life down to 6 (2 from pillar and 2 from vampiric) before his draw step, i played 2 bolts - lucky for me he doesn't have any counters.

Blood Moon, Magus of the Moon and Greater Gargadon can help you against Oath (all red spells)

@zabuza - sculpting steel may help dealing with the leviathan/colossus but can be limited to that only. Membrane can still help me against fish or r/g beatz creatures blocking them. Bolts and Incinerate help me deal with small creatures and can help me finish games as well.

[TopSecret]

Oath, however, is a really tough deck now with Progenitus.  Basically, the only outs that I have thought of are seal of cleansing and edict.  Since we can't block Progenitus that new card isn't super useful.  If there is a card that will actually help this matchup in red I will instantly go back to playing red.  I just don't know that there is one.  Any help side or main would be great.

Hide/Seek sounds like the card you are looking for.

[merfolkOTPT]

Hey guys,
So i wanted to share that B/W version with all of you, I think it is interesting and really good against Tezzeret and Combo.  I am working on the other matchups, especially Stax, which mostly comes down to who draws more waste effects.  Here it is.

Lock Pieces (12)
4x Glowrider
4x Thorn of Amethyst
4x Null Rod
(The Glowrider and ToA plan seems a little bit weird, but it has been really effective for me.  It also is almost never bad, and when it is not as useful at least it doesn't really hinder my plan).

Utility Guys (10)
4x Dark Confidant
3x Aven Mindcensor (Just say no to effective Tinkering)
3x Samurai of the Pale Curtain (A way to have some first game chance against Ichorid, and not bad against fish and it's ilk)

Disruption (8)
4x Duress
4x Tidehollow Sculler

Meta-Slots (5)
3x Seal of Cleansing (has been useful for me so far)
2x Hide/Seek (Seems like the right card for this, but so far is largely untested.)

Mana (25)
7x SoLoMoxen
5x Strip/Waste
4x Ancient Tomb
3x Windswept Heath
1x Plains
1x Swamp
4x Scrubland

Sideboard (15)
4x Ensnaring Bridge (These come in against Oath, and I am thinking about them vs Ichorid.)
2x Edict (Also good vs Oath, though more as a time walk than anything else, and helpful vs Fish with bigger creatures.)
3x Yixilid Jailer
3x Serenity
3x Open Slots (They might become Shriekmaw, just to help more verse aggro.)

Anyway, This is a different direction that may be useful or may be outside the scope of the thread but I thought you all might find interersting. It is funny this deck actually started out as a TMWA BWR deck with the painter combo, but after I took out those slots, I basically ended up with just main deck Mogg Fanatic, which doesn't seem like a good enough reason to keep Red. 

Let me know what you think.

[TopSecret]

Does your list have trouble with Tinker -> Inkwell?

You have a lot of disruption to slow the opponent down, and Mindcensor (and sometimes Hide//Seek),
but has that been enough?

If not, perhaps Red would be worth it for more Hide//Seek?

Shadow of Doubt is another card, but I'm guessing it wouldn't make the cut.

Finding a decent method of dealing with Inkwell Leviathan
without playing narrow cards is certainly a challenge.
Perhaps that should be a major point of discussion in this TMWA thread?

[Myriad Games]

Thank you to everyone for the continued conversation.

I've found a combination of preemptive disruption (Duress, Hide/Seek, et alius) with Diabolic Edict to be quite effective at dealing with Inkwell Leviathan.

[merfolkOTPT]

I've found a combination of preemptive disruption (Duress, Hide/Seek, et alius) with Diabolic Edict to be quite effective at dealing with Inkwell Leviathan.

I have found this to be true for me with sculler, duress, and honestly for modern decks that run tinker vs my version to get up to 4 or 5 mana with no access to artifact mana and me playing a full set of wastes/strips, this has been not a huge worry.  I am much more concerned with progenitus oath hence the sideboard of 4 ensnaring bridge. 

I also think that the ability to play acceleration in the form of Ancient Tomb has been really helpful to this deck making either first turn null rod, or ToA very easy to lay down and just immediately slow down the opponent enough for other pieces, like Mindcensor to lock out the possibility of tinker before they die.

[Guli]

Yes , in fact the key is to neutralize any possible counter spells. Duress effects (including from bears) do this well.

I use Vexing Shusher to protect my 'answers' against Tinker.

[Toku]

I've played a couple more small events, and I still haven't dropped a match with TMWA. Here's where I'm at currently:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Jotun Grunt
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Hearth Kami
1 Gorilla Shaman

4 Null Rod
4 Duress
2 Hide/Seek
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Path to Exile
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

4 Ruby/Pearl/Jet/Lotus
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath
2 Badlands
2 Scrublands
1 Plateau
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Swamp

SB: 3 Extirpate
SB: 1 Hide/Seek
SB: 2 Shattering Spree
SB: 3 Grim Lavamancer
SB: 2 Vexing Shusher
SB: 1 Yixlid Jailer
SB: 3 Engineered Explosives


I decided on Hearth Kami because he helps in some game 1s (Stax, Tezz, Dredge), can disrupt some sideboard targets against Fish-style decks (mostly Jitte), randomly blows up moxen against mana screwed opponents, and, most importantly, attacks for 2.

I'm still not sold on the Shushers in the sideboard. Nobody plays Shaymora at our small events, so I haven't found out if he's good there or not, but he's nice because sometimes you've got 8 dead cards (the Null Rods and Red Blasts) and you just need to bring in a guy who attacks. For now, I'll keep them in, but they could easily become extra Jailers if more than 1 person plays dredge at our tourneys.


I'd like to possibly find room for the 4th Sculler, but the only cut that's making sense to me is the Gorilla Shaman (who I've activated all of twice so far). Opinions?

[smasher]

Our most recent monthly tournament took place yesterday for a bazaar. I ended up taking home the prize after facing a diverse field.

Here is what I played against (my deck list at the end of the post)

Rd.1 Tezzeret piloted by Ben C.  I lost this round 0-2 which is unfortunate since this is a great matchup for me. Game 1 I stuck an aven mindcensor but my opponent by turn 5 had resolved 4 AK's and an ancestral to pull far enough ahead that I was unable land another threat through counter magic. I ended up getting him to 6 on game one with the lone mindcensor. Game 2 a turn 2 tinker into inkwell sealed the deal rather quickly. I will also note that I did not see a null rod either game which hurt to say the least.

Rd.2 R/G/W aggro piloted by Chase. I won game 1 with null rod shutting off aether vial and a couple mindcensors in the air to get the win. Game 2 He draws a lot of creatures and I draw very few to lose that game quickly. Game 3 My opponent kept a hand with some creatures, a black lotus, and a skull clamp. He opened with lotus into ethersworn canonist and skull clamp and missed his land drop. I drop my 2nd land and cast Hide on canonist and I proceeded to win a few turns later with him being too far behind with the missed land drops. I'll note in this matchup jotun grunt x4 and aven mindcensor x4 are really good due to grunts 4/4 body and mindcensor's evasion.

Rd.3 B/U/W fish piloted by Aaron. I lost game one and don't remember too many details other than the fact I didn't know what I was playing against and kept a subpar hand for a fish mirror. I won game 2 and game 3 fairly easily after knowing what I was up against. One of the games my opponent did resolve a balance which wiped out my 2 creatures in play which almost let him come back. We were even on lands and hands so I still had some gas in hand to commence the beatdown plan. A note about the matchup, Diabolic edicts and red blasts where very nice and definately helped me get games 2,3. My opponent also let me know that it was his first time playing the deck and had little or no playtesting with it. I did notice a couple mistakes but overall he did well for his first run at it.

Rd.4 Ichorid piloted by Michael. I lose game 1 with my opponent at 10. I couldn't get down more than a couple small beaters against him and he had time to find multiple bridges and get in for lethal with a swarm of tokens. I also drew 4 land in a row that game after keeping a hand with 3 mana. Game 2 I bring in my entire sideboard. I took out 4x null rod, 4x aven mindcensor, 2x thoughtseize, 2x duress, 3x red blast. I open with duress on his lotus which was going to do some broken stuff with breakthrough. I get down an early yixlid jailer and an extirpate on his darkblast followed up by jotun grunt and the game was over really quick. Game 3 was a complete blowout, by turn 4 I had extirpated his dredge 6, dredge 5, and ichorids, as well as Seek on 2 narcomoeba's before I started playing guys to win with. I dont have any fear against dredge decks.

I end up 3-1 after swiss and start playing top 8

I get paired against A painter/grinder deck piloted by Miklos which is probably my absolute best matchup possible. I didn't know what he was playing but thought the deck contained blue cards so I keep a sketchy hand consisting of Mox ruby, 3x red blast, 1x duress, 1x vampiric tutor and a null rod. I figure my red blasts will buy me time to draw lands. It turns out my next 3 draws are lands then followed by nothing but business spells and the game is over. Game 2 I bring in 2 more hide/seeks, 2 goblin welders, and 2 viashino heretics. boarding out 2x wastelands and 4x jotun grunts. My opponent brings in 3x pyroclasm from the board and some ingot chewers and maybe a rack and ruin if it wasn't in his maindeck already. He goes first, drops a library, and passes the turn. I open with duress and see double pyroclasm and 4 more lands. One clasm down 1 to go. Next turn I consider if I should drop a welder or shaman and try to bait out the clasm. I end up passing the turn leaving hide/seek mana available. turn 3 I draw my one of extirpate. I play welder and gorilla shaman both of which resolve then an extirpate on pyroclasm and to my luck he has drawn his 3rd clasm so I rip 2 cards from his hand further preventing library from ever becoming active. The next couple turns I drop null rod, canonist and a mindcensor leaving me hide/seek and another null rod in hand as back up. needless to say I won that one.

Quarter finals and its getting to be a long day with people having evening plans. 1 guy doesn't want to top 4 split so we play it out. I get paired against a friend Doug running a Lorescale coatl deck. He has a slight advantage due to the size of his creatures but scoops to me so I am in the finals waiting on the 2 dredge decks to finish playing each other. I was hoping the guy who refused a split would win so I could crush dreams in the finals but as it was they got crushed in the quarter finals.

Last match vs ichorid piloted by Alex. I prepare to lose game 1 but as it was I had him to 6 with 6 power on the field needing 1 more attack for the win. I needed to top deck a seek for some life gain to get me that extra turn. It didn't happen and we move on to game 2. Same boarding plan as I had in rd. 4 bringing in all 15 cards. I go first and drop wasteland, mox jet, dark confidant on the table. Getting 2 cards a turn from that point on was enough to keep the hate cards flowing into my hand and we move into game 3. I get an insane opening grip containing mox ruby, bloodstained mire, vampiric tutor, extirpate, jotun grunt, hide/seek and an engineered explosives. My 8th card after drawing was yixlid jailer. Meanwhile my opponent is mulling towards oblivion and ends up keeping a 2 card hand. The game was over before It started.

Thanks to everyone who came and played and thanks for the games.

I played 61 cards to get wasteland #4 in the list

Maindeck

4x Dark confidant
4x Jotun grunt
4x aven mindcensor
3x ethersworn canonist
2x gorilla shaman

4x Null rod
4x duress
2x thoughtseize
1x extirpate
3x red blast
3x diabolic edict
2x hide/seek
2x demonic/vampiric tutor

4x Black lotus, mox ruby/pearl/jet
4x wasteland
1x strip mine
4x bloodstained mire
1x windswept heath
1x flooded strand
1x mountain
1x plains
1x swamp
2x scrublands
2x badlands
1x plateau

Sideboard

2x goblin welder
2x viashino heretic
2x hide/seek
2x yixlid jailer
2x engineered explosives
2x dark blast
3x extirpate

If possible I'll work the deck down to 60 cards and try to keep all my wastes still in. At this point in time I don't anticipate any other deck changes unless this lorescale coatl deck grows out of control. I loved the sideboard and it was nice having cards to bring in against any deck I may face.

I realize I didn't list all my sideboarding against some matches. Any questions are welcome.

-Smasher

[Miaou]

I have a few questions smasher

Tutors:
Would the 2 tutors you are using be better off as maybe another Edict and another REB or Gorilla Shaman? This would also allow you to cut the 1 Extirpate. I just find tutors rather slow as they generally cost you a turn instead of just casting another threat.

4 Grunts:
Do you have problems keeping these guys active? Especially with a Canonist limiting the amount of spells played, do the Grunts tend to accumulate in your hand?

Yixlid Jailer:
Are these guys really necessary in the SB? You already have so much Ichorid hate, that it seems like overkill.

[smasher]

I have a few questions smasher

Tutors:
Would the 2 tutors you are using be better off as maybe another Edict and another REB or Gorilla Shaman? This would also allow you to cut the 1 Extirpate. I just find tutors rather slow as they generally cost you a turn instead of just casting another threat.

4 Grunts:
Do you have problems keeping these guys active? Especially with a Canonist limiting the amount of spells played, do the Grunts tend to accumulate in your hand?

Yixlid Jailer:
Are these guys really necessary in the SB? You already have so much Ichorid hate, that it seems like overkill.

The vamp tutor is really good. I like to be able to grab a serious threat to whatever matchup I'm facing on their eot. During the tournament It grabbed null rod versus painter, Yixlid jailer versus ichorid, and jotun grunt versus rgw aggro. In play testing I have grabbed lotus to have a nice mana boost turn, edict for inkwell, and depending on my board position just getting that 3rd piece of disruption down that is needed. If null rod and canonist are in play, getting mindcensor to put the nail in the coffin is good for example. The demonic tutor I would hate to cut since it replaces itself instead of putting the card on top. The times when I can demonic and play the card I get are quite often. Demonic usually needs to get duress, thoughtseize, mox monkey, or reb to make an immediate impact. I have also cast demonic to grab lotus enough that I can almost count the card as a ritual type of effect.

4 Grunts are not an issue to keep alive. I'm probably never playing more than 1 at a time unless one will be dying next upkeep but I'm fine with this. 4 grunts is what gives me a chance versus aggro and I need to see as many as I can. Jotun grunt is a nice clock versus any deck and I find he gets countered more than anything. For ichorid he is such a nice piece of disruption to play after the first piece has been played to slow them down. Keeping him alive has never been a big issue regardless of canonist. If I drop Grunt turn 2 I would guess an average amount of cards in the yards to be 6. Now there will be fetching on both sides and wastelands from me. Also with canonist down I can still duress something for +2 cards in yard, reb on there turn for +2 more, or just play any instant in response to there spell for the same advantage. I think its fair to assume grunt only needs to do 12 damage. Any other 2 power beater along side him will result in 18 damage and that is quite often enough. If they haven't dealt any damage to themselves and grunt dies I have another 2 power guy on the board to finish it. 12 damage from Grunt only requires 12 cards in yards.

Jailer in the board makes me happy. It diversifies my threats and the mana costs of my threats to deal with cabal therapy and chalice of the void. Considering I usually go to games 2 and 3 I like a large amount of hate to increase my chances of winning the round. Enough of the other ichorid board cards can help in other matches so it justifies me running the Jailer to smash dredge. Another reason for the jailers in board was due to 25% of the players were playing dredge. 4 dredge decks where in the top 8 also. If I don't anticipate any dredge decks this is obviously the first card to get changed in the board.

[Stormanimagus]

I don't think people have tried tweaking RG beats in a while. I truly think this deck could make a good splash on the current metagame. I'd play it but I simply do not own all the cards for it. Here's what I'd have in mind for an update on the list:

Land (17):
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
2 Forest
2 Mountain

Artifacts (12):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Lotus Petal
4 Null Rod
4 Chalice Of The Void

Creatures (23):
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Magus Of The Moon
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Ohran Viper

Instants (4):
4 Red Elemental Blast

Enchantments (4):
4 Seal Of Primordium

SB
1 Trinisphere
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Pyroclasm
3 Pyroblast
2 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Ancient Grudge

Thoughts? Comments?