The Mountains Win Again!

[Stormanimagus]

@Zombie Shakespeare- Point taken on the fact that Canonist & Company may sometimes be too slow and not cut the mustard, but the idea is to play creatures that have synergy with Vial. Canonist + Vial is pretty deadly if you can catch a combo player mid combo or in response to Duress. Seems like a solid synergy that make Ethersworn Canonist a viable weapon as opposed to a mediocre lock-piece.

Bottom-line. Aether Vial allows you to play your deck on your opponent's turn and that can be huge. Teeg + Vial might also be bombtastic but that would require splashing Green and I'm not sure I'm prepared to run a 4-color list. I suppose Vial needs reactive bears however so a 5-color list with MM might even be warranted if you want to go the route of Vial. I'll have to think about the approach that makes most sense.

-Storm

[Wagner]

Been a while since I played a hate deck, just split a 28 player event for an Imperial Seal and 4 blue duals with this list.

4 Pyroblast
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Toughtseize
4 Painter Servant
3 Duress
3 Magus of the Moon
4 Dark Confidant
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Grindstone
2 Grim Lavamancer
3 Night’s Whisper
2 Extirpate
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Ancestral Recall

1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Polluted Delta
1 Mountain
2 Swamp
1 Black Lotus
1 Volcanic Island
3 Badlands
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
4 Shattering Spree
4 Smother
2 Yixlid Jailer
3 Null Rod
2 Diabolic Edict

Was pretty happy with this build.

Mini Report
Round 1 Tezz Win
Round 2 Mono Green Elf combo, Lose turn 1 and turn 2.
Round 3 Dredge Win 2-0
Round 4 Tezz Win 2-0
Round 5 Tezz Win 2-1

Top 8 Bug Fish Win 2-0
Top 4 Tezz Win 2-0
Split against Dredge

As you can see, the meta was filled with Tezz, so it was a good call. I was afraid of aggro decks so I packed my side against them.

I don't check this tread often, so adress any questions of comments via PM if you want.

[Myriad Games]

I'm happy to see so many players having success with various builds of The Mountains Win Again in the current environment! Thanks to everyone who's innovating and continuing the discussion. Congratulations on your victories!

[Miaou]

Trying to consitantly beat Tezz decks in my area I have come up with an unorthodox list. Before I post the list I just want to say a few things about my metagame.
90% of the decks use Dark Confidant and/or Goblin Welder. There is a ton of Fish/hate decks as well as a majority of Tezz decks. Almost all of the control decks use Platinum Angel, Triskelion and Sundering Titan as their Tinker targets. Also post board, you can expect 100% of the time 2-3 Pyroclasms and 2 Ingot Chewers to fight off Null Rod.

So with all this in mind here is what I have been testing with good succes so far:

Mana (21)
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Ruby
1x Black Lotus
1x Forest
1x Mountain
1x Plains
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Windswept Heath
2x Plateau
2x Savannah
2x Taiga

Creatures (23)
4x Mogg Fanatic
4x Wild Nactyl
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Qasali Pridemage
3x Gaddock Teeg
4x Burning-Tree Shaman (thanks Mike!)

Disruption/draw (15)
4x Ancient Grudge
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Pyroblast
4x Aether Vial
3x Skull Clamp

I won't bother listing the SB as it isn't determined yet, but I know for sure that I want cards to fight Dredge and some 3CC artifact hate to get around Chalice.

So where is the Null Rod? I think with this approach it isn't needed, and here is why:
You have 8 (Pridemage + Grudge) ways to blow up artifacts, some you need to counter twice, and others that can be uncounterable (via Vial). Basically if you want to hit Time Vault to prevent them going off you can. What happens if I don't draw one of these guys? Well that's where the Burning-Tree Shaman comes in. He prevents them from taking too many turns. Since this is an aggressive deck by the time they manage to get Vault/Key together, they should be low on life.

With Hurkyl's Recall everywhere now, it isn't hard for them to bounce a Null Rod and win. Same story post board with Ingot Chewers. Hence why I think that with enough artifact removal, you can get away without Null Rod.

Since I lose the Mana denial aspect from not running Null Rod, I don't think Wastelands have their place in the deck either. The absence of Null Rod also allows you to play Aether Vial which is a beating against control and is very nice against Shops as well. It also allows me to run a draw engine, which these colors lack: Skull Clamp.

The other weakness these decks tend to have is Tinker. Here you can either counter it with 4x Blasts, race it if they are low, or just plain destroy it with your artifact hate (keep in mind the decks I face do not have DSC or Inkwell or Sphinx...this might make the deck obsolete elsewhere unless you run Tariffs or something).

Finally a word about the creatures: 12 of them survive Pyroclasm making it a weaker card to bring in for them. The fanatics are here against Welders and Bobs and do a great job at it. The Nactyls could be Figure of Destiny, but I need to test that (I don't like the fact that Figure can be Darkblast or Fire/Iced).

Anyways just looking for some feedback, and trying to say that playing aggro without Null Rods is possible, you just have to pack more artifact hate (and shamans! ) to make it work.

[Stormanimagus]

Trying to consitantly beat Tezz decks in my area I have come up with an unorthodox list. Before I post the list I just want to say a few things about my metagame.
90% of the decks use Dark Confidant and/or Goblin Welder. There is a ton of Fish/hate decks as well as a majority of Tezz decks. Almost all of the control decks use Platinum Angel, Triskelion and Sundering Titan as their Tinker targets. Also post board, you can expect 100% of the time 2-3 Pyroclasms and 2 Ingot Chewers to fight off Null Rod.

So with all this in mind here is what I have been testing with good succes so far:

Mana (21)
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Ruby
1x Black Lotus
1x Forest
1x Mountain
1x Plains
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Windswept Heath
2x Plateau
2x Savannah
2x Taiga

Creatures (23)
4x Mogg Fanatic
4x Wild Nactyl
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Qasali Pridemage
3x Gaddock Teeg
4x Burning-Tree Shaman (thanks Mike!)

Disruption/draw (15)
4x Ancient Grudge
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Pyroblast
4x Aether Vial
3x Skull Clamp

I won't bother listing the SB as it isn't determined yet, but I know for sure that I want cards to fight Dredge and some 3CC artifact hate to get around Chalice.

So where is the Null Rod? I think with this approach it isn't needed, and here is why:
You have 8 (Pridemage + Grudge) ways to blow up artifacts, some you need to counter twice, and others that can be uncounterable (via Vial). Basically if you want to hit Time Vault to prevent them going off you can. What happens if I don't draw one of these guys? Well that's where the Burning-Tree Shaman comes in. He prevents them from taking too many turns. Since this is an aggressive deck by the time they manage to get Vault/Key together, they should be low on life.

With Hurkyl's Recall everywhere now, it isn't hard for them to bounce a Null Rod and win. Same story post board with Ingot Chewers. Hence why I think that with enough artifact removal, you can get away without Null Rod.

Since I lose the Mana denial aspect from not running Null Rod, I don't think Wastelands have their place in the deck either. The absence of Null Rod also allows you to play Aether Vial which is a beating against control and is very nice against Shops as well. It also allows me to run a draw engine, which these colors lack: Skull Clamp.

The other weakness these decks tend to have is Tinker. Here you can either counter it with 4x Blasts, race it if they are low, or just plain destroy it with your artifact hate (keep in mind the decks I face do not have DSC or Inkwell or Sphinx...this might make the deck obsolete elsewhere unless you run Tariffs or something).

Finally a word about the creatures: 12 of them survive Pyroclasm making it a weaker card to bring in for them. The fanatics are here against Welders and Bobs and do a great job at it. The Nactyls could be Figure of Destiny, but I need to test that (I don't like the fact that Figure can be Darkblast or Fire/Iced).

Anyways just looking for some feedback, and trying to say that playing aggro without Null Rods is possible, you just have to pack more artifact hate (and shamans! ) to make it work.

Nice Deck! and I do like the concept of Rod-less Aggro, but I am very concerned with how you deal with TPS game 1. Gaddock Teeg? It seems like, other than that card TPS is wetting itself on how easy their match-up is against you. Remember, Artifacts are not the only win condition in the format. So is Tendrils Of Agony. Just my 2 cents. Again, cool deck.

-Storm

[Miaou]

TPS (and other combo) is indeed a very weak match up with the way I built the deck, but the reason is pretty simple: I don't face it. I would probably try to address it in the SB with some Canonists (as per your suggestion somewhere in this thread) as it works nicely with Vial. I would also bring in 4x Leyline of the Void which is part of the SB plan versus Ichorid, but works nicely against TPS.
Another option is Aven Mindcensor, but I don't like him very much games 2 and 3 because he is so easily killable. Any other versatile options vs TPS?

[RecklessEmbermage]

TPS (and other combo) is indeed a very weak match up with the way I built the deck, but the reason is pretty simple: I don't face it. I would probably try to address it in the SB with some Canonists (as per your suggestion somewhere in this thread) as it works nicely with Vial. I would also bring in 4x Leyline of the Void which is part of the SB plan versus Ichorid, but works nicely against TPS.
Another option is Aven Mindcensor, but I don't like him very much games 2 and 3 because he is so easily killable. Any other versatile options vs TPS?

Pyrostatic pillar is solid. I doubt it'd be better than canonist as long as you play vial though.

[TopSecret]

Here are two cards from the new set that caught my attention:

Goblin Guide --> http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/tcg/products/zendikar/sot1v4k51u_EN.jpg

Plated Geopede --> http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/tcg/products/zendikar/skdzxilqda_EN.jpg

I think these are relevant because, at the very least,
they are more efficient beat-down creatures in straight red decks than anything else printed so far.

Goblin Guide doesn't need much explanation since he's just a really, really efficient creature.

Plated Geopede seems strong in combination with the additional red fetches from Zendikar.
With 12 red fetches, couldn't this guy effectively end up being a 5/5 for two mana most of the time?

[MirariKnight]

Plated Geopede can be bigger than Tarmogoyf with fetches. If he's out, play a fetch and then use it and use another one he's a 7/7 first strike for 1R.
Goblin Guide's drawback seems minimal, with the added benefit of knowing the opponent's draws.

[Wagner]

Plated Geopede can be bigger than Tarmogoyf with fetches. If he's out, play a fetch and then use it and he's a 7/7 first strike for 1R.
Goblin Guide's drawback seems minimal, with the added benefit of knowing the opponent's draws.

How doesn't this add to it being a 5/5?

[MirariKnight]

Playing a fetch + cracking 2 fetches = 3 lands coming into play = +6/+6
Again sorry I forgot to mention the 2nd fetchland. I must be tired today; I'm not thinking right.

[Miaou]

I do like these creatures, they offer nice mechanics, but for me if I am to play a creature who's only purpose is to beat down, it would have to be able to survive Pyroclasm which non of these can do
In my eyes these guys are too fragile to be worth running, although in a mono red build the Geopede might be decent.

[Joblin Velder]

I'm not a big Geopede fan. I typically run a low land count in aggro deck, so I'm not sure how often this guy is going to be very large. It seems to me that a lot of the time, he'll just be a Mogg Flunkies.

[RecklessEmbermage]

I do like these creatures, they offer nice mechanics, but for me if I am to play a creature who's only purpose is to beat down, it would have to be able to survive Pyroclasm which non of these can do
In my eyes these guys are too fragile to be worth running, although in a mono red build the Geopede might be decent.

Apart from that, it dies to all the removal people play to off dark confidant, like darkblast and fire/ice.

I guess this can be considered if you insist on playing monored and insist on playing a bunch of creatures, but it is far from a reason to do so. I'd rather run keldon marauders and mogg fanatic in sligh, and 8 creatures is enough in such a deck.

[nineisnoone]

not that big a fan of either. they can be beatdown, but at most it would be a preferential sort of thing.

not sure if you are accepting Goblins in your TMWA thread, but the best red card for vintage is the new Goblin Lackey, Warren Instigator. surprised not to hear more about goblines. seems like a meta they'd fair well in.

[AmbivalentDuck]

They're severely underplayed.   Getting the build right is very difficult and there are a lot of traditionally powerful cards that are now red herrings, so it's not surprising that nobody else has found it.  Monomax took 3rd at a medium/large event about a month ago with our build.  I've played it in small local events doing very well.  Even with an unrefined list, I have a pretty picture of my name right above Smennen's from standings at day 2 of the ICBM open.

That said, the only common element between TMWA and goblins is Vandals.  Warren Instigator is trash in Vintage (and you can quote me on that).  As a control deck with a 1B Jester's Cap attached to a Juggernaut, goblins is good.  As an aggro deck that scoops to Pyroclasm, Goblins is very very bad.  We play Lackey because people force/drain it (like idiots), but Vandal is far better.  I'll also go on record saying that the card suggested below is infi more playable than instigator.

Ronom Goblin, RR, 1/1
Sac: Destroy target artifact

[RecklessEmbermage]

They're severely underplayed.   Getting the build right is very difficult and there are a lot of traditionally powerful cards that are now red herrings, so it's not surprising that nobody else has found it.  Monomax took 3rd at a medium/large event about a month ago with our build.  I've played it in small local events doing very well.  Even with an unrefined list, I have a pretty picture of my name right above Smennen's from standings at day 2 of the ICBM open.

That said, the only common element between TMWA and goblins is Vandals.  Warren Instigator is trash in Vintage (and you can quote me on that).  As a control deck with a 1B Jester's Cap attached to a Juggernaut, goblins is good.  As an aggro deck that scoops to Pyroclasm, Goblins is very very bad.  We play Lackey because people force/drain it (like idiots), but Vandal is far better.  I'll also go on record saying that the card suggested below is infi more playable than instigator.

Ronom Goblin, RR, 1/1
Sac: Destroy target artifact

No problem with that last statement. Hope we won't need to wait too long for that card. Tin street hooligan is strong, but stretching for it opens the archetype too much up to fish.

[AmbivalentDuck]

No problem with that last statement. Hope we won't need to wait too long for that card. Tin street hooligan is strong, but stretching for it opens the archetype too much up to fish.

The problem is that it isn't good.  It competes with and loses to Shattering Spree since you have to tap a dual and a mountain for Hooligan vs any source of multiple red for Spree.  Vandal outcompetes it for deck space as goblin artifact kill since it's a repeatable effect that comes down turn 1.

Ronom Goblin provides instant speed artifact removal for massive tempo gain vs Tez and Stax.

[credmond]

I was able to split the finals of a 21 person tournament at Superstars, San Jose, with a tuned up version of Wagner's deck that he posted to this thread a couple of weeks ago. This is definitely a solid way to take the TMWA archetype with so much Tezz around making pyroblasts golden. Oath is probably the biggest problem this deck can face.


BR Painter Hater
4 Dark Confidant
4 Painter's Servant
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Magus of the Moon

4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Duress
3 Thoughtseize
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Extirpate
2 Grindstone
1 Shattering Spree

1 Demonic Consultation
1 Demonic Tutor

3 Night's Whisper
1 Ancestral Recall

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire

1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Polluted Delta
4 Badlands
2 Mountain
2 Swamp
1 Volcanic Island

Sideboard:
3 Null Rod
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Smother
3 Shattering Spree
1 Viashino Heretic
2 Yixlid Jailer
1 Relic of Progenitus

[Wagner]

Funny, you added a Grindstone and I'm pretty sure I'm going to cut it entirely on the next tournament, it didn't give me a single game and you have to side it out most of the time against Tezz anyway.

You also run 2 more mana sources, did that cause you any trouble?

How did you like Extirpate?

Were the Night's Whisper as good for you has they have been for me?

Would you cut Recall next time, or on the contrary, would you add another blue card?

[credmond]

Funny, you added a Grindstone and I'm pretty sure I'm going to cut it entirely on the next tournament, it didn't give me a single game and you have to side it out most of the time against Tezz anyway.

You also run 2 more mana sources, did that cause you any trouble?

How did you like Extirpate?

Were the Night's Whisper as good for you has they have been for me?

Would you cut Recall next time, or on the contrary, would you add another blue card?

I won several games with grindstone in testing and in the tournament. I think its good to have at least the possibility of a combo finish since a suicide aggro deck can sometimes wind up in trouble or otherwise get blocked.  Diversity of threats is always a good thing in my opinion. I added a second one so I could more reliably get it with consultation (consultation is also really good in this deck). I sometimes keep a single grindstone in there even when I board in null rods since I know I can nuke the null rod when I am ready to combo out. Also, people sometimes overly worry sideboard for the grindstone and your deck just merrily goes the beats way to victory.

I ran two more lands than you did since my testing indicated that the deck was vulnerable to wasteland without those and I had to too frequently mulligan 1 land hands away.

Extirpate was awesome. People don't expect it. I won a TPS matchup by duressing and then extirpating tendrils 2 games in a row. Its great for end of turn tutors and to make sure the way is clear if you are trying to set up the painter grindstone combo finish.

Night's whisper is great and helps a bit in the oath matchup.

I like recall. I think its great to fire off an ancestral when you have pyroblast backup to really kick them hard if they think they can force or misdirect it. You also often have duress or extirpate to have confidence that it will go off unmolested.  I don't know about any other blue even though time walk is obviously tempting.

I wonder if you have any ideas on improving the oath matchup.

It also seems like the deck could use a bit more acceleration. The matches I lose is where the other player goes broken very early in the game before I can establish enough disruption. But lotus petal, sol ring, dark ritual, or simian spirit guide don't seem to be the key.

[Wagner]

First version ran 5 moxes and less Wastelands, it's another option to get your 2 drops early, but with so many 1cc, I didn't like that much. Beside Bob and Rod after side, you don't really NEED a 1st turn Whisper or Painter since you will probably do something else.

As for Time Walk, someone already suggested it, but I can see no reason why. If you don't have a Bob out, it is essentially juste a bad cantrip that you must fetch your Volcanic for. Sure, you might get to swing for 2-3 from time to time, but this is no aggro deck, so I really don't think it is worth it.
With Bob out, it's essentially Draw 2 for 2 mana (like Night's Whisper) and it weakens your mana base. The land drop won't mather most of the time since you will very rarely want to play walk with nothing on board.

[TopSecret]

I think this card from the new set might be potentially playable in a burninator-style deck that splashes black:


Bloodchief Ascension -

Enchantment
   
At the beginning of each player's end step, if an opponent lost 2 or more life this turn, you may put a quest counter on Bloodchief Ascension.
Whenever a card is put into an opponent's graveyard from anywhere, if Bloodchief Ascension has three or more quest counters on it, you may have that player lose 2 life. If you do, you gain 2 life.


At first glance, this doesn't seem difficult to activate in a burn deck.

You can cast it, and then throw a bolt at the opponent or attack on the same turn,
pass, burn the opponent on their eot,
and then burn or attack the opponent again on your turn. And then it's active.

Is the above difficult to pull off?
If the answer is no, then I think this card could be pretty interesting.

Once this card is active, it can potentially neuter certain strategies, like Oath (pre-Oathing), Ichorid (if they still need to continue dredging), and Combo,
but in addition, this effect seems strong enough against most other decks, as well.

[RecklessEmbermage]

I think this card from the new set might be potentially playable in a burninator-style deck that splashes black:


Bloodchief Ascension

Enchantment   
At the beginning of each player's end step, if an opponent lost 2 or more life this turn, you may put a quest counter on Bloodchief Ascension.
Whenever a card is put into an opponent's graveyard from anywhere, if Bloodchief Ascension has three or more quest counters on it, you may have that player lose 2 life. If you do, you gain 2 life.


At first glance, this doesn't seem difficult to activate in a burn deck.

You can cast it, and then throw a bolt at the opponent or attack on the same turn,
pass, burn the opponent on their eot,
and then burn or attack the opponent again on your turn. And then it's active.

Is the above difficult to pull off?
If the answer is no, then I think this card could be pretty interesting.

Once this card is active, it can potentially neuter certain strategies, like Oath (pre-Oathing), Ichorid (if they still need to continue dredging), and Combo,
but in addition, this effect seems strong enough against most other decks, as well.

Manacost?

[BruiZar]

I think this card from the new set might be potentially playable in a burninator-style deck that splashes black:


Bloodchief Ascension

Enchantment   
At the beginning of each player's end step, if an opponent lost 2 or more life this turn, you may put a quest counter on Bloodchief Ascension.
Whenever a card is put into an opponent's graveyard from anywhere, if Bloodchief Ascension has three or more quest counters on it, you may have that player lose 2 life. If you do, you gain 2 life.


At first glance, this doesn't seem difficult to activate in a burn deck.

You can cast it, and then throw a bolt at the opponent or attack on the same turn,
pass, burn the opponent on their eot,
and then burn or attack the opponent again on your turn. And then it's active.

Is the above difficult to pull off?
If the answer is no, then I think this card could be pretty interesting.

Once this card is active, it can potentially neuter certain strategies, like Oath (pre-Oathing), Ichorid (if they still need to continue dredging), and Combo,
but in addition, this effect seems strong enough against most other decks, as well.

Manacost?

[RecklessEmbermage]

I think this card from the new set might be potentially playable in a burninator-style deck that splashes black:


Bloodchief Ascension -

Enchantment
   
At the beginning of each player's end step, if an opponent lost 2 or more life this turn, you may put a quest counter on Bloodchief Ascension.
Whenever a card is put into an opponent's graveyard from anywhere, if Bloodchief Ascension has three or more quest counters on it, you may have that player lose 2 life. If you do, you gain 2 life.


At first glance, this doesn't seem difficult to activate in a burn deck.

You can cast it, and then throw a bolt at the opponent or attack on the same turn,
pass, burn the opponent on their eot,
and then burn or attack the opponent again on your turn. And then it's active.

Is the above difficult to pull off?
If the answer is no, then I think this card could be pretty interesting.

Once this card is active, it can potentially neuter certain strategies, like Oath (pre-Oathing), Ichorid (if they still need to continue dredging), and Combo,
but in addition, this effect seems strong enough against most other decks, as well.

It may be too gready, but do you think this can be run alongside bitter ordeal? Either that or as an alternative to it from the sideboard (ordeal is good versus combo, while this should work nicely in the aggro match-up).

Rough, budget deck:

red:
4 lightning bolt
4 seal of fire
4 mogg fanatic
4 fireblast
4 pyrostatic pillar
4 price of progress

black:
3 bloodchief ascension
3 bitter ordeal

artifact:
3 null rod
1 lotus petal

mana:
4 simian spirit guide
2 wild cantor
4 bloodstained mire
2 red fetch
3 badlands
2 mountain
3 barbarian ring
2 swamp
3 wasteland
1 strip mine

If less on a budget, the deck could run moxen/lotus and shrapnel blast. The null rods could become magi of the moon..