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Author Topic: [Article] Vintage Fallout and a New Beginning  (Read 8888 times)
zeus-online
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« Reply #30 on: June 06, 2008, 04:06:19 am »

I'm not sure i'd play scroll and ponder in every deck, but brainstorm is a must as long as you play fetch lands (Or special exceptions, like dragon).

Scroll just dosn't fit all decks, never worked all that well in slaver for me, so i'd probably not play it in slaver....also the usefullness of scroll just dropped, since running silver bullets for it to fetch seems rather bad now.

Ponder isn't nearly as good as brainstorm, it's merely a cantrip while brainstorm is so much more....Saying that every deck should play it is like making an argument for 4x serum visions/opt/sleight of hand in every blue deck, that makes no sense.

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« Reply #31 on: June 06, 2008, 11:05:44 am »

The thing is, Ponder is much much better than all those cards, and I feel that with the loss of 3x brainstorm, you lose a lot of early game consistency which Ponder can help you to regain.  Its gonna be a lot harder to consistently hit land drops in the new format without brainstom, especially the first couple, and Ponder will really help you to do that and to start sculpting your hand (which is much harder to do now as well). 
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« Reply #32 on: June 06, 2008, 12:05:39 pm »

From my rather limited testing with Psychatog and slaver, hitting lands really isn't a problem...and none of the decks are currently playing ponder...both are playing brainstorm for obvious reasons and merchant scroll is in one of the decks (Psychatog)

I really don't see ponder as an auto-include, but time will tell...There's just so many other options that needs to be explored.

If you want the decklists, just pm me.

/Zeus
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« Reply #33 on: June 06, 2008, 12:27:41 pm »

I find it ironic that decks that normally did not even run Merchant Scroll are now forced to run it and possibly Ponder with the killing of Brainstorm. 
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"After these years of arguing I've conceded that Merchant Scroll in particular can be an exception to this rule because it is a card that you NEVER want to see in multiples, under any circumstances. Merchant Scroll can be seen as restricted in a way because should you have 2 in a hand, only one is really useful (that is, only one can get Ancestral)."
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« Reply #34 on: June 07, 2008, 10:27:51 am »

A very nice article indeed. I think that your analysis is correct in broad views. There are however two points on which I disagree. The first one is about Bomberman. Just to recapture the earlier discussion:
Quote
I didn't see a mention of Bomberman, though.
Did you forget it, or do you think that it's not good enough for consideration?

Why would anyone use Auriok Salvagers when Painter's Servant is in print?
Who would ever want to play Painter's Trinket when there is Bomberman? The combo parts of Bomberman are useful by them self (I have won numerous matches against Stax just by recurring Engineered Explosives and moxes) or can be "stored" in the graveyard until it's time to combo off (spellbombs). Grindstone, on the other hand is pretty useless on its own and Painter's Servant is potentially suicide to play without having found Grindstone. My personal belief is that the Painter/Grindstone combo is best included in a Control Slaver frame, much like Time Vault/Fuselage once was.

The second point on which I don't agree is the arguing that the more or less only way to beat Workshop decks is to play Merchant Scroll for a bounce spell. The Swedish meta game is crammed with Stax decks, but I seldom rely on playing a Merchant Scroll for a bounce spell, it is just too expensive. As long as you build your deck having Workshop decks in mind, you will do absolutely fine without four Merchant Scrolls. It's all about acrificing some mana acceleration for more permanent mana and some more answers to artefacts, e.g. Gorilla Shaman or Engineered Explosives. This does of coarse mean that the format will slow down even further than predicted by most, and I think that this strengthen the arguments to why Mana Drain will become viable again.
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« Reply #35 on: June 07, 2008, 10:51:39 am »

Quote
The second point on which I don't agree is the arguing that the more or less only way to beat Workshop decks is to play Merchant Scroll for a bounce spell.

I didn't intend to imply that at all. In fact, I've never used that method. I've always been more comfortable dropping Flux, accented by Rack and Ruins personally.

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Who would ever want to play Painter's Trinket when there is Bomberman?

I see your point. It's 100% my own speculation, but I do think that as small amount of Bomberman was played before, even less will play it now.
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« Reply #36 on: June 07, 2008, 01:07:39 pm »

Is it just me, or is 4xEmpty the Warrens and 4xSimian Spirit Guide the starting point for Neo-Storm Combo? With Merchant Scroll -> Echoing Truth gone and reactive answers unwieldly with out Brainstorm, just dumping a hand full of Goblins on the board and running over the opponent seems kind of huge.
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« Reply #37 on: June 08, 2008, 05:42:26 pm »

Just musing. . will Survival builds have any merit in the brave new world?  The quality of creatures has improved exponentially since the strategy was invalidated.
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« Reply #38 on: June 08, 2008, 06:06:26 pm »

Just musing. . will Survival builds have any merit in the brave new world?  The quality of creatures has improved exponentially since the strategy was invalidated.

Perhaps. One thing that people need to get a handle on, as the metagame forms, is what is the barrier of entry for decks. I've seen stuff like Belcher and Stompy suggested now that the format is changing, but I don't think we've lowered the bar that much. A survival build would undoubtedly need to be combo oriented in it's finish. Whether it's TnT swinging in one triumphant turn really quick, or something similar to the Legacy finishes. And even then, it's got to have the fundamental properties to not lose to faster decks and get around decks that say no.
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