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Author Topic: GWSx: Dark Confidant fueled Ritual combo  (Read 21862 times)
nsammael
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« Reply #30 on: June 11, 2008, 12:03:21 pm »

Hi.

I'm testing a similar deck. Not identical, but very similar.

I play only 4 Duress. Not thoughtsize. Why? Without gush, flash or merchant, the more important disruption will be in table, not in hand. You only have to worry about FoW, and, without brainstorm, it will be more difficult find them in 1-3 turns. And why duress, and not Thoughtsize? Because i use Spoils of the vault. In a deck with so many 4of, its safe to tutor for something without lose. And they have great synergy with top tutors.

Thanks
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« Reply #31 on: June 11, 2008, 12:40:26 pm »

@Nova/JACO
Do you have any perferred side board cards?  For instance what would you want to side in when facing slaver, tog, mud, stax, ichorid, another storm deck (drain tendrils or the mirror)?

How well does repeal work in a deck like this, and how do you find yourself using it on average?  It is only a cantrip when played on a 0cc perm, which to me means that you only want to play it on your own moxen to up the storm count most of the time.  Are there other considerations for this slot?  I understand the list is still changing some, this just caught my eye as I never had good feelings with repeal as a defensive spell.
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« Reply #32 on: June 11, 2008, 02:37:01 pm »

Repeal is a solid spell because it can bounce your own stuff to draw cards, but it can also bounce opposing confidants, goyfs, or welders quite easily.  I use it because it bounces creatures and can also bounce an Explosives or other things that might get in your way. 

As far as sideboarding, I like boarding up to 6 mass bounce.   There are certain times I will play Energy Flux, and that's a good spell to play versus ICBM oath.   Extirpate is also a 4of, and tormods crypt is going to be a 1 or 2 of.   Another card I sideboarded before tarmogoyf was printed was Dream Stalker, because it blocks every creature aggro decks play.  I may end up playing Wall of Souls in the sideboard, because it stops them from attacking with their creatures. 

If I were to go into a tournament today for the new format, my sideboard would look like this:

3 Wall of Souls
1 Hurkyls Recall
1 Rebuild
1 Island
4 Extirpate
1 Tormods Crypt
1 echoing truth (against creature-based decks)
2 Energy Flux
1 Massacre
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« Reply #33 on: June 11, 2008, 03:48:55 pm »

The sideboard and maindeck seem incredibly susceptible to the 9-sphere plan. Is it advisable to have all your artifact answers except for 1 CoV cost 2 or more?

Also, Wall of Souls seems like a terrible choice. It wastes a card to chump a Tarmogoyf and otherwise occupies 20% of your sideboard for virtually no benefit. I strongly question whether it shifts the Delta P in any matchups whatsoever.
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« Reply #34 on: June 11, 2008, 04:26:10 pm »

It keeps agressive decks off you for a long long time.   With the unknown meta, I do expect people to play urbana fish and other fish decks.   Once I get a more stable look at what is actually a contender in the metagame, I will be able to better-build my sideboard.
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« Reply #35 on: June 11, 2008, 10:31:26 pm »

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0 off color moxen.  This is wrong.  you lose the possibility to cast turn 1 Confidant without wasting a rituals.  You also lose out on the twister/windfall play with mana up.  You're also not playing ponder.
A turn 1 Dark Confidant is probably the wrong play with so many Duress/Thoughtseize, and interacting with the opponent is quite important in the early game. Either a Ritual or waiting to turn 2 for Dark Confidant is necessary anyway.

(And yes, this does sometimes make Dark Confidant slow, which makes me question playing him somewhat. Usually after two upkeeps where he's active, I can storm out, though.)

EDIT: I do like this change, though, after looking at 13Nova's list.
-1 Windfall (too random)
-1 Mind's Desire
-1 Yawgmoth's Bargain (minimal synergy)
+1 Imperial Seal
+1 Vampiric Tutor
+1 Mystical Tutor
« Last Edit: June 11, 2008, 10:54:54 pm by policehq » Logged
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« Reply #36 on: June 11, 2008, 10:44:04 pm »

@policehq
Turn 1 dark confidant is a very strong play, the card advantage it provides is something that will win you games. With the amount of duress effect running around, I wouldn't mind extra cards given by bob. Honestly, your comments are making my think your testing is little more than gold fishing.
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« Reply #37 on: June 11, 2008, 10:56:40 pm »

And what is your testing that says Duress/Thoughtseize are weak opening plays? Describe your amazing opponents and their decks. (I think at the moment a majority of players right now are limited to MWS.)

Playing a mid-game combo deck requires some interaction, whether to prevent your opponent controlling what you do later, or to prevent your opponent from winning. Dark Confidant does neither of those things, and he is not a top priority when I am holding a Duress effect at the same time.

EDIT: Dark Confidant is not really that good of card advantage. Night's Whisper gives you two-turns of Confidant immediately, at presumably the same cost of life (without risking more from a random Tendrils or something), Night's Whisper is a MUCH better card to hit while 'going off,' and Night's Whisper has synergy with Yawgmoth's Will. The advantages of Dark Confidant are that he swings, reducing the storm count required to kill, he blocks, he's immune to Duress, and over the course of a longer game, if he's unanswered, THEN he will be good card advantage.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2008, 11:09:23 pm by policehq » Logged
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« Reply #38 on: June 11, 2008, 11:20:39 pm »

@policehq
If you take the time to read my post, you will notice I never said duress effect is a weak opening play. I only said that turn one bob is a strong opening play. As for my play testing, I have a hand full of pretty good players I test with regularly, definitely worlds better then the mws quality players.
As for whether to play duress or bob when they are both in your hand, it's difficult to give a concrete answer. You'd have to think about your role in the game as well as the game state. Against certain storm combo variants I'd play duress, against most aggro I'd play bob, against unknown I'd consider what I know about the local meta. Too say that duress is always your top priority is a little short sited and will lose games for you.

in response to your edit
If your think night's whisper is that much better than dark confidant, perhaps you should stop posting in the " GWSx: Dark Confidant fueled Ritual combo" thread. Soly has defiantly put up a lot of tournament results that disagree with your opinions of dark confidant being suboptimal (I'd consider your 0 dark confidant comments pretty off topic in this thread honestly). You also seem to miss the point of this deck. It's not to just combo out or "go off" and win all the way, but to "Win big by winning small." Perhaps you could start your own thread in the improvement forum. Your obviously working towards a different type of deck then this one.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2008, 11:34:17 pm by hvndr3d y34r h3x » Logged

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« Reply #39 on: June 12, 2008, 12:20:04 am »

Soly has defiantly put up a lot of tournament results that disagree with your opinions of dark confidant being suboptimal

Has this deck won anything since the Champs aside from the occasional local T8 slot? I don't think you can use minimal results from pre-restriction for the viability of something post-restriction.

I'm still highly concerned as to how this holds up against Workshop and Ichorid in particular, decks that run Spheres and/or Chalice in general. No Force of Will, only 1 basic Island, these are not reassuring attributes in a deck that largely depends on quantity over quality. My main worry is that the decks this is best against simply won't be around in the new metagames. I see artifacts, especially the prison pieces this hates, taking on a larger role, making the deck a huge risk on the draw as well as against something like Ichorid which is unlikely to give you the time to Tendrils twice.

That aside, a couple minor nitpicks on the stated list: 1/1 Flooded Strand and Bloodstained Mire with 1/3 Island and Swamp seems unbalanced. Either 0/2 for Mires, or 2/2 for basics seems smoother depending on your preference of color. A second Island seems healthy in general with the amount of relevant blue spells. Also, the stated list has no Lotus Petal but is 60 cards. I'm guessing this is an oversight.
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« Reply #40 on: June 12, 2008, 06:56:39 am »

@ PoliceHQ.  You obviously have never played a combo deck like this if you think turn 1 Dark Confidant is bad because of duress/thoughtseize.   The confidant itself usually drags out a force, which is perfectly fine for this deck, and if it doesn't, you're golden.

@ Dan:  Again I agree with the 2/2 land split, but going into an unknown field for the first time, I'm more comfortable having black.  The deck has some troubles with Ichorid, hell what deck doesn't.   As for workshops, they're this deck's DREAM matchup.  Workshops seeing Dark Confidant AND dark Rituals is a NIGHTMARE for them.  My hate all costs 2 or more because of Chalice, which I expect to see a lot of play at the beginning, and then drop.
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« Reply #41 on: June 12, 2008, 11:37:08 am »

Ok it's obvious that you and hundred year want to continue putting words into my mouth ("Dark Confidant is bad"), relive your glory days of pre-restriction local success, and minimal testing/results in the current field to back up your comments, which again, argue something I haven't said.

Playing against 9-sphere and being on the play is NOT this deck's dream. Maybe before Gifts was restricted, and you got a Beta Mox Jet, but Stax is quite more aggressive and strangling now than then.
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« Reply #42 on: June 12, 2008, 12:15:01 pm »

Playing a mid-game combo deck requires some interaction, whether to prevent your opponent controlling what you do later, or to prevent your opponent from winning. Dark Confidant does neither of those things, and he is not a top priority when I am holding a Duress effect at the same time.

EDIT: Dark Confidant is not really that good of card advantage. Night's Whisper gives you two-turns of Confidant immediately, at presumably the same cost of life (without risking more from a random Tendrils or something), Night's Whisper is a MUCH better card to hit while 'going off,' and Night's Whisper has synergy with Yawgmoth's Will. The advantages of Dark Confidant are that he swings, reducing the storm count required to kill, he blocks, he's immune to Duress, and over the course of a longer game, if he's unanswered, THEN he will be good card advantage.

I was focusing on the "dark confidant is not really that good of card advantage. Night's whisper gives you two turns of confidant immediately...". It sure seems to me like this comment is advocating night's whisper in its place. You've also stated that dark confidant is a bad play because of duress for some reason. I'd appreciate it if you could calm down and stay on topic( I'm a little shocked you haven't gotten a warning yet). Your comments are definitely not productive to this thread. I have simply been advocating the strength dark confidant it this build, something you repeatedly disagree with in "DARK CONFIDANT FUELED RITUAL COMBO".  If you believe dark confidant is suboptimal you should probably cut it from your list and start a new thread. If you'd like to continue this debate, or criticize my testing (something you know nothing about) ,your welcome to try and pm me and get it out of this thread.

Related to more on topic discussion, the shop match up is really not that bad. I have literally played thousands of games against stax, and probably near 50 with similar lists (post restriction). For starters there is a lot of basic land in this deck. Bob is unaffected by half of their sphere effects and helps you make your land drops. Typically the game will stall out for a few turns bob builds up your mana and finds your mass bounce spell. You have the benefit on knowing there is no fow for games 2-3  for turn one plays, not to mention occasionally bob will go the distance on his own.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2008, 12:31:44 pm by hvndr3d y34r h3x » Logged

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« Reply #43 on: June 12, 2008, 01:18:46 pm »

@Nova/JACO
Do you have any perferred side board cards?  For instance what would you want to side in when facing slaver, tog, mud, stax, ichorid, another storm deck (drain tendrils or the mirror)?

How well does repeal work in a deck like this, and how do you find yourself using it on average?  It is only a cantrip when played on a 0cc perm, which to me means that you only want to play it on your own moxen to up the storm count most of the time.  Are there other considerations for this slot?  I understand the list is still changing some, this just caught my eye as I never had good feelings with repeal as a defensive spell.
I've got an article coming out Friday morning (tonight at 12:01am) on MTG Salvation, which talks about this, and a few other decks. It's got my last current list, but judging by the interest in this deck I'll probably do a standalone article about just this deck, card choices, sideboard options, lines of play against Workshop, etc.

The deck really doesn't care about Spheres that much. They drop Sphere, you drop a piece of land, and pay for your small stuff (Moxes, Sol Ring, Mana Vault, etc.), and then eventually just bounce whatever necessary and go to town. That's part of the reason there is so much bounce, especially post board. This is not Grim Long, where you need to try to win all in one turn on the back of a Yawgmoth's Will. You play incrementally, beat down a little, and Storm once or twice.
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« Reply #44 on: June 12, 2008, 04:51:20 pm »

Quote
I'd appreciate it if you could calm down and stay on topic( I'm a little shocked you haven't gotten a warning yet). Your comments are definitely not productive to this thread.

Pro-tip. If someone disagrees with your line of thought, you probably shouldn't pull the old, 'hey, you're not flaming or anything, but instead of making a valid retort I'm going to baaaawww for a bit and loosely insinuate a mod should intervene.'

Here's the thing, Dark Confidant is indeed a good card. However it's always been a wee bit on the slow side and that's a fair criticism since sometimes you won't be playing them turn one. The other drawback is that it can be removed really easily, I used to hate playing Confidant against Rich if he had Fire/Ice or Darkblast early because he'd end up completely negating my line of play without using a Force. Darkblast in particular being annoying because even Ritual -> Duress -> Confidant didn't knock out the issue. There's also the minimal issue of allowing a turn one or two Oath to activate w/o Orchard, but the amount of relevancy that has will be determined by how much Oath is actually in the new metagame.

So it isn't so much ZOMG Night's Whisper is the nuts! Rather it simply is that NW has some of it's own advantages going for it and Dark Confidant isn't necessarily a sacred cow in this type of deck. Yes the thread title may have it, but that doesn't actually mean it's optimal in the deck (or that this version of the archetype is optimal).

As for the deck itself, quad Tendrils is god-awful, it's like taking free mulligans for your opponents benefit.
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« Reply #45 on: June 12, 2008, 08:14:32 pm »

Here's the thing, Dark Confidant is indeed a good card. However it's always been a wee bit on the slow side and that's a fair criticism since sometimes you won't be playing them turn one. The other drawback is that it can be removed really easily, I used to hate playing Confidant against Rich if he had Fire/Ice or Darkblast early because he'd end up completely negating my line of play without using a Force. Darkblast in particular being annoying because even Ritual -> Duress -> Confidant didn't knock out the issue.
Correct me if I am wrong, but how is this so bad?  In the fire instance you are trading 1:1 with the same mana requirements, often meaning that they waste their turn/what they planned for your turn on dealing with DC, in the darkblast instance it becomes more complicated because while they are trading 4 for your 1 they can do it repeatedly with possibly favorable drawbacks (crucible, yawg will etc.).  Given that this decks is designed to make mini combos multiple times wouldn't it be good to have them waste cards in hand (especially blue ones like fire/ice) to not only gage how well they can support a force but to keep them from being able to support one so you can make more informed decisions on when to 'go off'?

There's also the minimal issue of allowing a turn one or two Oath to activate w/o Orchard, but the amount of relevancy that has will be determined by how much Oath is actually in the new metagame.
This is a valid point, and indeed against an oath deck it would be smarter to lead off with duress (which is also a play that will happen more often).

I'll step aside for smarter people who have more experience with the deck to address the rest of your post.
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« Reply #46 on: June 12, 2008, 08:34:53 pm »

Quote
Correct me if I am wrong, but how is this so bad?

Anytime I've played a deck featuring Dark Confidant, I've decidedly not wanted it to die. You are essentially investing a turn in playing the Confidant which bares no fruit for you if it's killed by your opponent. Yes, the opp. has used a turn and card of his own to deal with it, but the idea is that they won't mind getting dragged into a longer game where-as this type of deck traditionally will get weaker. In addition, trading a removal card for what could be deemed an engine card is typically in favor of the removal player. Even if you consider Confidant as just another draw card, that still likely comes out in favor of the opp.
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« Reply #47 on: June 12, 2008, 10:46:55 pm »

My list features Night's Whisper, Dark Confidant, and Duress/Thoughtseize, all in full sets. I'm not proposing anything is played in the deck over something else; we're discussing strategy of play once the deck is built.

The point about Night's Whisper was simply to compare Dark Confidant to a card that actually provides card advantage. Dark Confidant often provides card parity, often helps you win, and in some rare cases does nothing at all or helps you lose (Oath that hasn't drawn Orchard). Just trying to make *fair* points, not discourage the use of Dark Confidant... heaven forbid a deck lose a card that is in its name!

So Vegeta and I are mostly agreed on that point. However, I will say, at the expense of confessing this variation on the Storm archetype an inferior one, that playing less than 4 Tendrils of Agony limits the deck's ability to tick. Personally, I've tried testing fewer, and always come up short.
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« Reply #48 on: June 13, 2008, 01:06:27 pm »

I think 3x Confidant is best.  He's good, but he's only advantage after 2 turns.  He's good early or late, but you don't really want to draw into him when you're trying to go off.

I'm also trying out Promise of Power. 2BBB Choose one, draw 5 cards lose 5 life or put a demon token with flying into play with power/toughness equal to cards in hand.  Not factoring the life-loss, it's pretty amazing.  If you can power it out it's easy to draw into more mana/draw and just goodness.  It can even beat for the victory if you choose the demon.

This is the list I'm looking at (no confidants... 4x Tendrils AND 4x Promise seems a bit risky).

1 Flooded Strand
1 Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Swamp

1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Demonic Tutor

1 Chain of Vapor
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rebuild

4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Ritual

4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize

1 Yawgmoth's Will
4 Tendrils of Agony

4 Night's Whisper
3 Promise of Power
« Last Edit: June 13, 2008, 01:24:29 pm by nineisnoone » Logged

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« Reply #49 on: June 14, 2008, 08:29:07 pm »

@ Doomsday

The direction you would need to take to play Doomsday would require you to play more Sensei's Divining Tops ala Legacy Tendrils. That, combined with a singleton draw4 lets you build a pile like this (assuming you have a Top in play):

[Top]
Cruel Bargain/Infernal Contract/Meditate
Black Lotus
Lion's Eye Diamond
Lotus Petal/Mana Crypt/Random Mox
Tendrils
[Bottom]

This will add 6 storm + Tendrils for a total of BBBBBB (or 2UBBB) and has the potential to use extra Sensei's Tops in the 0cc Artifact Mana Slot to generate extra storm for an additional 2 colorless. There are probably better individual piles to use in specific situations, but a general pile could look something like that. I don't necessarily think that the deck as a whole would benefit from including 4 Sensei's Tops to try to fuel a 1-of Doomsday like this (although, admittedly, you could use pass the turn Doomsday stacks and still combo the card with Ancestral Recall, Ponder, and Brainstorm) but you might be able to force the issue in this deck or a similar deck with at least some success.
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« Reply #50 on: June 21, 2008, 09:50:55 pm »

I took 2nd at a smaller event in WI today, losing in the finals to Long in a hardfaught 3.      Some changes are coming, and I will post them late tomarrow.   

I played bargain, and honestly, it absolutely sucked balls.   It's becoming Wheel of Misfortune.
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« Reply #51 on: June 22, 2008, 05:33:56 am »

@13Nova: now you add wheel of fortune, will you also swap a tendrils with EtW? Previously you mentioned you didn't want to play red because it isn't needed and it weakens your manabase. What has made you change your mind?

I have played some games with this deck but my general feeling is that without a confidant i get stuck with lots of manasources late game and run out of gas. Maybe this is due to the way i play the deck, but I consider cutting cabal ritual #4 and perhaps #3 and add something along the line of Fact or Fiction/Thirst for Knowledge. What do you guys think of this.

Also, is 5 duress effects enough disruption against decks running full sets of Forces, Drains and perhaps also Counterbalance/duress?

I had a starting hand on the play against an unknown deck today. I am curious how you guys would play this hand:

Island
Duress
Delta
Ponder
Brainstorm
H. Recall
Y. Will

I opened with Island -> Ponder seeing the following: Swamp, Tendrils, Sol Ring.

What would you do? This is a situation where I can see myself not playing enough threats/disruption within the first 2-3 turns. Was the ponder a mistake? Should i have opened with duress instead?

One last question for 13Nova: Erik Becker also posted a storm combo list in the open forum, only without confidants. Both of you recommend your list as the deck to play for the new metagame. Why, if so, do you consider your list better than his?
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« Reply #52 on: June 22, 2008, 08:42:42 am »

I will address all that shortly.  Thanks for your interest in my deck!    Some quick notes though that I will touch on later:

-another bomb is needed that is cheap.  I like wheel more than infernal contract.
-I played 3 tendrils and 3 cabal rituals. 
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« Reply #53 on: June 22, 2008, 11:30:08 am »

After reading many of the responses for this new archetype I've come to the opinion that Repeal isn't a strong choice for the deck. It:

a)forces you to run a full compliment of moxen to really be effective
b)probably won't bounce any oathed up or dread returned creature
c)forces a greater committment to blue

I dunno. Repeal MAY work in a more TPS based deck, but I think those decks are not going to be as good now that BS has been restricted.

Here's the direction I'd take Confidant Tendrils given the current environment as I expect it'll be post restriction:

Noo Sui-Black

Land (16):
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Underground Sea
4 Swamp
1 Island
1 Library Of Alexandria

Artifacts (4):
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire

Creatures (4):
4 Dark Confidant

Instants (12):
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Extirpate
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Hurkyl’s Recall

Sorceries (19):
4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
4 Night’s Whisper
4 Tendrils Of Agony
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Time Walk

Enchantments (5):
4 Leyline Of The Void
1 Necropotence

SB
2 Hurkyl’s Recall
3 Extirpate
3 Energy Flux
3 Pithing Needle
2 Massacre
2 Snuff Out

The MD Island might be able to we another swamp, but I like being able to have a blue source that doesn't die to wasteland for now. If I find it to be superfluous later I'll cut it.

Thoughts on this list? I realize that it's pretty standard, but I'm curious to hear what you guys think about MD Leyline.
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M.Solymossy
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« Reply #54 on: June 22, 2008, 04:01:47 pm »

Your list looks aweful.  Leyline is absolute dogshit in combo in my opinion, and you're running library.  You're also trying to cheat on mana, forgetting that brainstorm is no longer an answer.

Here is the list I ran yesterday

3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Island
2 Swamp
5 Moxen
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Lotus Petal
1 Black Lotus
4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Ritual

4 Dark Confidant
2 Sensei's Driving Top
2 Night's whisper

1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Necropotence
1 Yawmoth's Willenium
1 Timetwister

2 Chain of Vapor
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rebuild

1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

4 Duress

1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Mystical tutor
1 Demonic Tutor

3 Tendrils of Agony



The deck is a house.  Iwant to incorporate a 7th Fetchland, as well as a 3rd top, and cutting Yawgmoth's Bargain.   More to come later.
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« Reply #55 on: June 22, 2008, 05:06:13 pm »

Actually 13Nova, your list looks aweful...haha just kidding, looks good man. Although i didnt agree in the beginning i can now say i agree with cutting bargain from this list. I might also consider cutting 1 island from the list, maybe for the 7th fetching you are looking to incorporate. Even though you losing life with bob, i still think Contract is better than a draw 7 giving your opponent cards...i was previously playing windfall, however on average only drawing 5 cards and also giving your opponent 5 cards, i would much rather just draw 4 cards and and give my opponent 0 even at the cost of half of my life. Im a big fan of the 4 MD bounce spells though.
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« Reply #56 on: June 22, 2008, 11:11:33 pm »

I played in a small tournament in Northern Wisconsin. 14 players, but a decently high caliber of players.   I ended up going 5-0 in the swiss, knocking Jeremy Seroogy out of top 4 (he was paired up).    I only lost 2 games on my way to top 4.  One of them to Mana ichorid casting Time Walk (Otherwise I would have raced him) and one to Seroogy with my own Bargain.   In top 4, I played Bomberman and 2-0ed the matchup.   Then I played Peter Gentile playing Long (who I 2-0ed in the swiss) and lost in 3.   

My sideboard for that event:
3 Disrupt
2 Envelop
3 Tormods Crypt
2 Extirpate
1 Tinker
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Massacre
1 Planar Void

This deck played through Meddling Mage + Aven Mindscensor.   It doesn't care about leyline of the void.  I can play through Rebs no problem whatsoever.   Conventional Combo hate doesn't hurt this deck.  It truely is resilient to most forms of combo hate.  Sensei's top makes the deck less reliant on Dark Confidant, which is a problem I've been trying to address.   

As for my sideboard:  tinker-DSC and Disrupts were useless.  I beat seroogy once with  Tinker, DSC but i might just play ETW's in the board if I play red at the next event (I hate this card main, as it gives your opponent at least 1 turn, most likely 2 turns, to answer it). 


Also, thanks for PMing me questions!   First:

Quote
Dont you think merchant scroll is not good enough for bob long? I am aware its awull 2 run more copyie, but single merchant scroll seems very strong to me in your deck, as it can always find any solution or a recall.

Finding Recall isn't this deck's primary concern with it's tutors.  I never cast any tutor for this card unless it's mystical, and turn 1 or 2 MAYBE if my hand needs it.   Recall is good, don't get me wrong, but dark confidant gets you +1 card each turn, and -1 storm each turn.  I'd rather play confidants.   Scroll for Recall is 1UU to draw 3 cards.   I'd rather pay 1 more colorless and play Concentrate at that point.  Scroll was good because it found recall AND gush in the last format.  In this deck, it's not so solid.


Quote
Can you tell me why do you want to play 4 bounce spells?
4 bounce spells gives you an insane game versus anything. 2 Chain of vapor is nuts, and I regret having repeal in the deck (although, in the metagame I saw, I may run +1 repeal -1 rebuild).  4 Bounce enable you to storm out the tendrils really easily without casting a single bomb.  I like how I don't need to ever let my opponent in the game by casting a draw7.   

Quote
how do u like night whispers, i ve been thinking a lot about the card and in theory it seems quite strong for this deck
I've liked Nights Whisper because it gives you a quick couple cards (although it's only +1 in reality after replacing itself). The reality here is I wanted another card that I could cast without a confidant on the table that would give me a similar effect.  Because of this, I was testing Skeletal Scrying.  However, I realized that Nights whisper is still really good WITH a confidant out. and Actually, I used a topdeck-tutor in combination with Nights Whisper / Top in order to win games several times.   

Quote
I  found that T. Academy and Minds Desire suits the deck perfect
  This really depends on playstyle.  I think desire is nuts in the deck, and have had it in and out of my list several times, but it seems overkill because getting  {U} {U} and a decent storm count is sometimes hard to get.   Other times, you get it and blow your opponent out of the water, and I will definitely have desire in my next list to test, but I don't think the deck supports enough blue cards for Tolarian Academy to be worth it. 
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« Reply #57 on: June 23, 2008, 04:12:29 am »

Thank you for cutting that stupid wall Soly.  Also, I've always hated Repeal in vintage, especially in combo, so I'm glad you are finally considering cutting that garbage as well.  Only a few more awful cards to cut and you'll actually have a good deck!

Nice job at the tourney, was Seroogy playing Ichorid or Slaver or what?  Any other ICBM/GWS guys there or was it just you, seroogy, and a bunch of other random people?
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« Reply #58 on: June 23, 2008, 07:59:33 am »

There was Jake Kempfer and Seroogy both playing SSNaught, Peter Intile playing GrimLong, me playing GWSx, and a couple other compitant players playing bomberman and other builds.   Overall, the field was pretty solid for a testing ground.  I'm gunna try and get off july 13th for the ICBM Open so I can get a solid event to test this in,too.

And the wall was more of a joke than anything, Jimmy.   I always play something stupid against aggro, because I like being hilarious, but it's about time I give this deck a solid 15 to go along with it's solid group of 60, and actually smash people, instead of blocking their jobbers.
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« Reply #59 on: June 23, 2008, 08:06:54 am »

I played a similar deck in Oct. 07 to a Top 8 finish but I had a R splash for Artifact hate and REB´s after sideboarding. You should also test this and include Burning Wish as some cards could be very strong out of the sideboard (e.g. EtW, Meltdown, Pyroclasm, Massacre, Cabal Therapy, Mindtwist, Thoughtseize, Timetwister). Also don´t forget that Extirpate on Tendrils will not be "Game Over" any more.

Using 13NoVa list I would also test:

- Island
- Swamp
+ Volcanic Island
+ Badlands
- 2 Flooded Strand
+ 2 Bloodstained Mire
I think that one basic land each is sufficient for most metas.

- Timetwister (good enough in the sideboard)
+ Burning Wish

A red splash will also make Recoup and Gifts Ungiven possible again. This change should also be tested as well:

- 2nd Chain of Vapor (why two of them?)
- Imperial Seal (don´t know what else)
+ Gifts Ungiven
+ Recoup

Gifting into Recoup/Will/Ritual/Lotus is often game winning. Such a version should certainly also add Tolarian Academy.


My impression is that this deck has a critical mass of mana. In the first 1-3 turns you need every mana on the table for Dark Confidant, Night´s Whispher and Divining Top and don´t want to spend Dark Ritual or Cabal Ritual for these "small effects". But after you have resolved these card drawers for a couple of turns you have more than enough mana available.
That´s why I will also test:
- 3rd Cabal Ritual (not needed 1-2 Turn)
+ 3rd Nights Whisper (7th 2CC Card drawer for Turn 1-2)
Also without Brainstorm its harder to get threshhold for Cabal Ritual in the first turns.

Some cards which do not fit in the deck only because of space reasons: 4th Whisper, 3rd Divining Top, Minds Desire, Imperial Seal, one Cabal Therapy, 3rd Cabal Ritual, 7th fetchland

If the Metagame is not Wasteland contaminated I estimate that a version with R-splash can be stronger because you play more broken cards.







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