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Author Topic: GWSx: Dark Confidant fueled Ritual combo  (Read 21863 times)
Stormanimagus
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« Reply #60 on: June 23, 2008, 09:21:40 am »

Your list looks aweful.  Leyline is absolute dogshit in combo in my opinion, and you're running library.  You're also trying to cheat on mana, forgetting that brainstorm is no longer an answer.

Mind explaining how it's aweful? Cheating on Mana? I have 20 Mana sources BEFORE my 8 rituals and I have 8 turn 1 discard spells that require 1 mana. As for MD Leyline, I only run it because of all the Ichorid I've been hearing about of late, and because this deck can actually reasonably hard cast it.

Oh, and btw, this deck really isn't combo. It's a mini-tendrils deck that tries to be highly disruptive early and follow up with 8-10 point tendrils later. That is how it is designed to go. It is a bit more like Forino's T8 list from GenCon last year. Please say more than "This list is aweful." That really isn't too helpful.


MOD EDIT - he did say more than "this list is awful".  He gave 3 specific criticisms:

1. maindeck leyline is bad
2. library is bad
3. you need more non-ritual mana

Dante.

PS Let's keep it civil.  That goes for everyone
« Last Edit: June 23, 2008, 09:35:24 am by Dante » Logged

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MMD
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« Reply #61 on: June 23, 2008, 10:29:39 am »

So my current list looks like this:

3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Badlands
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tolarian Academy
5 Moxen
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Lotus Petal
1 Black Lotus
4 Dark Ritual 
2 Cabal Ritual

4 Dark Confidant
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Night's Whisper

1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Necropotence
1 Yawmoth's Will
1 Burning Wish
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rebuild
1 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
4 Duress
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Recoup
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
3 Tendrils of Agony

Sideboard suggestion:
3 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Meltdown
1 Pyroclasm
1 Massacre
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Timetwister
2 REB
2 Extirpate
2 Pithing Needle

So that´s the list I mentioned above but:
- Ponder
+ Tolarian Academy

I currently think that Ponder has to go in such a R-splashed build as I usually don´t want to fetch for the Island only to play a Wasteland save Ponder. I always wanted to have Swamp out first for Confidant, Nights Whisper and Duress.

In fact I did not change Ponder to Tolarian but:

Cabal Ritual/Island/Swamp/Flooded Strand --> Acadamy/Volcanic/Badlands/Bloodstained Mire
Ponder/Timetwister/Imperial Seal/Chain of Vapor ---> Burning Wish/Gifts Ungiven/Recoup/Night´s Whisper

On paper it looks like a slower version with an instable mana base but I recommend to take it into account as it now offers stronger single cards,
outs to Extirpate and friends, preboard solutions to specific matchups and stronger sideboard options.

By the way: Deviant from 13NoVa´s experiences Dark Confidant did not attack my oponents very often to reduce the life total for a smaller Tendrils as they either counter or destroy him immediatly or I couldn´t attack because of potential blockers. I mostly used him as card drawing machine and chump blocker.

Stormanimagus: I also think that your list is a complete different approach in comparison to 13Nova´s build. But for my taste Dark Confidant/Night´s Whisper always comes together with a full set of Moxen for a potential strong first turn. I don´t like to play Dark Ritual into Duress/Thoughtseize and Dark Confidant/Night´s Wisper as it will not create card advantage.
Also I don´t see Leyline Of The Void maindeck without having an established metagame, yet. In a heavy Ichorid meta this could certainly make sense but I think it´s too early to do that.
You should definately test Divining Top also in your list as it is strong of it´s own and can be broken when you have two of them and plenty of mana to create a lethal tendrils.

Has anyone tried to play Mediate/Cruel Bargain/Infernal Contract instead of Dark Confidant for immediate card advantage?






« Last Edit: June 23, 2008, 10:32:21 am by MMD » Logged
Duncan
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« Reply #62 on: June 23, 2008, 02:08:24 pm »

@MMD: Your list looks solid, cutting the 3rd Cabal Ritual for the 3rd Night's Whisper is an idea i've also been tinkering around with for a while. Some things to consider though:
- You've cut 2 Basic lands, 1 MD Bounce and replaced some 3 1cc and 1 3cc spells with 3 2cc and 1 4cc spell. You also mention the deck tends to be a bit slower. How has this affected the shop matchup? Being able to board in 3 EtW seems good, but only on the play. On the draw against 9Sphere WS decks getting to 4 mana and 2+ storm can be a real pain.
- You reduced the sideboard cards for ichorid from 6 to 4. Since your deck tends to play a little bit slower your ability to race them slightly diminishes too. How comfortable are you getting paired against Ichorid?

I think i'll swap the second Chain of Vapor from 13Nova's list for a 2nd Hurkyl's Recall. Both help generating storm, but Hurkyl's is also an extra answer vs. Chalice @1 and is more effective as a preboard card versus WS decks. (I've tested quite some preboard games versus 9 Sphere Aggro MUD and I almost can't seem to win on the draw).

@13Nova: What decks did you play in your tournament? Was there a Workshop Deck among them? I'd be very interested in a short tournament report if you'd be willing to write one. Also, what cards do you generally board out? And what matches do you bring Envelop in?

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« Reply #63 on: June 23, 2008, 02:45:55 pm »

@ duncan

There was not a shop deck in the room, but I have tested versus shop, and originally piloted this deck in a shop and gifts-heavy metagame, and I can say I would absolutely LOVE playing against shops all day long.  I really like 2 chain of vapor because they deal with Meddling Mage and oath creatures, and other non-artifact based permanents.   In the tournament, I won by casting chain on both Razia and Akroma against an oath player after they oathed them up.


About Contract/Bargain

I'm currently contemplating playing a cruel bargain or Infernal Contract ontop of the Confidants.   I have played a deck with 3 draw4s and 0 dark confidants, and I have learned that Dark Confidant in general is just better.
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« Reply #64 on: June 24, 2008, 04:03:06 am »

@Duncan:
Quote
You've cut 2 Basic lands, 1 MD Bounce and replaced some 3 1cc and 1 3cc spells with 3 2cc and 1 4cc spell.
Yes, but I have also added Tolarian Academy instead of the 3rd Cabal Ritual to support Gifts/Recoup.

My Sideboard was only a suggestions without specifying the metagame. I just choose cards which are flexible and good in many matchups (EtW, Extirpate, Pithing Needle). Sure, if you have a Workshop heay meta you should add some additional Hurkyl´s Recall´s and if there is a lot of Ichorid you should add some Jailers or Crypts.
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« Reply #65 on: June 24, 2008, 12:07:43 pm »

Update:  My newest sideboard!


[1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
3 Orims Chant
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rebuild
2 Massacre
2 Extirpate
1 Planar Void
3 Yixlid Jailer


The Orim's Chant will give you more game against Long and Belcher, as they won't see it coming, and even if they do, it's ALWAYS a threat they have to deal with.  Massacre is up to 2 because there are creature-heavy white decks that are actually decently good in the field right now.   I'm pretty sure everything else is obvious.
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« Reply #66 on: June 29, 2008, 02:40:29 pm »

I played in a 39 person tournament in Breda, the Netherlands today. I ended up 4-1-1 in Swiss, only losing to Ichorid 1-2 (i opened with lotus, crypt, double jailer, top while having extirpate, tendrils and recall in hand, but unable to find a land with sensei).

In top 8 i got paired against the same ichorid player again losing 1-2 (he topdecks a 2 outer with a Jailer on the table and his hand being empty.

The deck was a house all day. I played the board with White as 13Nova suggested. Chants were golden. I've taken enough notes to write a report, but I don't know when i have the time to write it all out.

My matchups:
1: 2-Land Belcher: 2-1
2: Painter/Nought: 2-0
3: Ichorid: 1-2
4: RG Beatz: 2-0
5: Painter: 2-1
6: ID

Top 8: Ichorid 1-2

I'm thinking about cutting a manasource, probably island #2 or cabal ritual #3 for an extra bomb/draw spell.
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« Reply #67 on: June 30, 2008, 12:42:45 pm »

Glad to hear you did well!  I actually won a tournament yesterday for a Mox Ruby, not dropping a game all day.  Unfortunately it was only a 4 round, top 4, but I did play Chris Nieghbor twice, who's pretty good.   As for the white sideboard, I haven't had any tournament testing with it since I'm @ ten proxies, but I've tested it online and in playtest sessions and It's been pretty golden.   

I actually played Minds Desire, Yawmgoth's Will, Necropotence, Wheel, and Twister as my bombs.
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« Reply #68 on: June 30, 2008, 12:59:33 pm »



Soly,

Congrats on the Mox win yesterday. 

Are you actually running more red in you mana base now?

I've been testing against my Ichorid deck since it's going to break the format and all (Just kidding,  I don't have any other T1 decks put together at the moment).

What were the match-ups you faced in the tournament?

Catch you later,

Dodger


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« Reply #69 on: June 30, 2008, 01:03:54 pm »

Dodger:

I played SSGoyf Twice and Workshop decks.  That's basically all there was there.   And yes, I am running  red for Wheel currently.  Just testing out different things for Nationals.

One of these days you'll have to get to a vintage tournament!
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« Reply #70 on: June 30, 2008, 01:23:29 pm »

Double Post!    Here is the list!

Quote
1 Sol Ring
1 banana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
1 Black Lotus
5 Moxen
3 Underground Sea
1 Badland
1 Island
2 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Timetwister
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Ponder
1 Brainstorm
1 Mind's Desire
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Hurkyls Recall
1 Rebuild
2 Repeal
1 Mystical Tutor
4 Dark Confidant
4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Ritual
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Necropotence
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
3 Tendrils of Agony
4 Duress
2 Sensei's Divining Top
-----
3 Tormods Crpyt
1 Island
1 Massacre
2 Extirpate
1 Hurkyls Recall
2 Envelop
3 Hymn To Tourach
1 Empty The Warrens
1 Planar Void
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« Reply #71 on: June 30, 2008, 01:34:45 pm »

How did the Envelop's work out for you?
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« Reply #72 on: June 30, 2008, 03:25:37 pm »

I didn't use them yesterday, but in the past, they've been golden.  In my finals match last week, I was really behind. My envelops let me beat him even with Yawgmoth's Bargain in play.

I have a theory about my combo deck vs Long varients.

In the first two turns, Grim Long is the agressor in this matchup.  However, If I can keep them off and get to my turn 2 or 3, I start taking Control, and then I am the agressor.  This is why I have boarded cards like Hymn, Envelop, and Orims Chant.   

Overall, I have been at least 60/40 with every deck I've played against other than Grimlong and Dragon.
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« Reply #73 on: June 30, 2008, 04:30:10 pm »

The report is up!
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=36095.msg502181#new

Do you think the Red splash is better than the white sideboard? Chants were amazing all day long for me. Maybe we can zoom a bit more into sideboard strategies, since the maindeck isn't changing more than 2-3 cards most of the time. Does my boarding look like the way you board, or do you have different strategies? And against what other decks do you board in Hymns? Grim Long doesn't take up a lot of the metagame, so 3 slots only for them seems a bit much.

Quote
Can you tell me why do you want to play 4 bounce spells?
4 bounce spells gives you an insane game versus anything. 2 Chain of vapor is nuts, and I regret having repeal in the deck (although, in the metagame I saw, I may run +1 repeal -1 rebuild).  4 Bounce enable you to storm out the tendrils really easily without casting a single bomb.  I like how I don't need to ever let my opponent in the game by casting a draw7.   
What made you change your mind on Repeal?
« Last Edit: June 30, 2008, 04:34:02 pm by Duncan » Logged

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« Reply #74 on: June 30, 2008, 05:25:39 pm »

I gotta leave soon so I'm just going to answer the repeal question.

I loved nights whisper, but I've played repeal before (pre-gush) and decided with Slaver being a part of the metagame as well as Goyf and other aggro decks, repeal was worth playing.  I still haven't decided.
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« Reply #75 on: July 04, 2008, 12:17:18 pm »

@ Doomsday

The direction you would need to take to play Doomsday would require you to play more Sensei's Divining Tops ala Legacy Tendrils. That, combined with a singleton draw4 lets you build a pile like this (assuming you have a Top in play):

[Top]
Cruel Bargain/Infernal Contract/Meditate
Black Lotus
Lion's Eye Diamond
Lotus Petal/Mana Crypt/Random Mox
Tendrils
[Bottom]

This will add 6 storm + Tendrils for a total of BBBBBB (or 2UBBB) and has the potential to use extra Sensei's Tops in the 0cc Artifact Mana Slot to generate extra storm for an additional 2 colorless. There are probably better individual piles to use in specific situations, but a general pile could look something like that. I don't necessarily think that the deck as a whole would benefit from including 4 Sensei's Tops to try to fuel a 1-of Doomsday like this (although, admittedly, you could use pass the turn Doomsday stacks and still combo the card with Ancestral Recall, Ponder, and Brainstorm) but you might be able to force the issue in this deck or a similar deck with at least some success.
Is a draw4 really needed? For instance with Top in play and BBBUU the following stack can produce 8 storm + Tendrils:

[top]
Ancestral Recall
Black Lotus
Mana Crypt
Repeal
Tendrils
[bottom]

since UU can be hard to get, here is a version for BBB2U:

[top]
Ancestral Recall
Black Lotus
Mox Sapphire
Repeal
Tendrils
[bottom]

if you play with LED, just BBB1U will do:

[top]
Ancestral Recall
Black Lotus
LED
Repeal
Tendrils
[bottom]

« Last Edit: July 04, 2008, 12:28:54 pm by DireLemming » Logged
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« Reply #76 on: July 31, 2008, 12:01:42 am »

@Nova

I have been following the thread for a while and i saw earlier that you said you prefer to be matched up against Stax. I have a lot of stax in my meta and have been having some trouble beating them. Can you share some insight on how you go about taking them down?
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« Reply #77 on: July 31, 2008, 12:25:39 am »

The  plan is real easy.   You have 4-7 bounce effects between main and sideboard, and Dark confidant, as well as a Rock Solid mana base.  It's pretty easy to get mana beyond their spheres, and then just smash them with bounce+Tendrils.


Champs is  this weekend though, and unfortunately I still don't have the right answer to  Grim or PitchLong. Sad
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« Reply #78 on: July 31, 2008, 11:35:44 am »

Champs is  this weekend though, and unfortunately I still don't have the right answer to  Grim or PitchLong. Sad

Did Orim's Chant prove to be not enough?
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« Reply #79 on: July 31, 2008, 04:09:14 pm »

The problem your deck has against Grimlong and Pitchlong is that theyre just faster. Your deck relys on bob for card advantage and mini tendrils, needing a few turns to set up. How many duress effects do you have maindeck? Duress isnt a guaranteed win, but it sure helps remove disruption or bombs out of your opponents hand. What is your sideboard looking like right now?

Anyway, you should just play my deck for champs  Wink
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« Reply #80 on: July 31, 2008, 06:36:59 pm »

The  plan is real easy.   You have 4-7 bounce effects between main and sideboard, and Dark confidant, as well as a Rock Solid mana base.  It's pretty easy to get mana beyond their spheres, and then just smash them with bounce+Tendrils.

Well, either im a bad player or im just unlucky as all hell. Its probably the former. Anyway, it always seems like my testing partner gets the sphere out and follows with a waste before i can get a chance to set up. We always test game 1s (i.e. preboard games) because we like to try and learn how to improve our chances on g1 wins.
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« Reply #81 on: July 31, 2008, 07:22:07 pm »

you realize game 1 is only a third of the game, right? If your serious about testing you need to mostly be playing sb games.
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« Reply #82 on: August 01, 2008, 04:26:44 am »


The problem your deck has against Grimlong and Pitchlong is that theyre just faster. Your deck relys on bob for card advantage and mini tendrils, needing a few turns to set up. How many duress effects do you have maindeck? Duress isnt a guaranteed win, but it sure helps remove disruption or bombs out of your opponents hand. What is your sideboard looking like right now?
I my testing against Long, firing off the first (mini-) Tendrils as soon as possible proved much more disruptive then discard. They often have problems generating storm significantly over 10, especially if they are in race mode.
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« Reply #83 on: August 11, 2008, 10:36:17 am »

This thread is really interesting. I really love this deck, I will try to adapt it with less power (no Lotus, no Tral). It seems quite difficult to remove Lotus... Damn.
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