[Deck Article] Keeper Reborn

[bluemage55]

*Disclaimer*:  This is my first article on TMD, so have patience with me and offer constructive criticism on how to improve.

Once the shock and outrage resulting from the new restrictions announcement had worn off, I turned my thoughts to building for the new world of Vintage.  With a wide frontier ahead of us, and no understanding of how it may turn out, I looked to the lessons of the old school.  In doing so, I revisited the set of articles that originally brought me to Vintage in the first place: The Control Player's Bible, by Oscar "Rasko" Tan.  

While the information contained within had been outdated for some time, one of the things that occurred to me is that with the new bannings and restrictions, the technology level of Blue had been essentially reset to 2002, prior to the printing of Onslaught, the rise of Brainstorm, and the recent growth of Vintage.  This was precisely the time when the Control Player's Bible was written.  As such, I feel that many of the insights provided by the Control Player's Bible could be inspirational in rebuilding Blue for the new Vintage, and I sought to build a new deck that honored the spirit of "The Deck", but updated for the new world.

While the end result was quite different from the original Keeper, Sun Wukong, and Zherbus' more recent 4c control decks, it nevertheless utilizes the fundamental principles established by "The Deck" in a modern shell.  This deck is still in its formative stages, and will be refined over time through testing, a better understanding of the new meta, and constructive input.  I present to you Keeper Reborn (tentative name), the rebirth of Keeper in the modern era:

// Lands (16)
        3 Flooded Strand
        1 Library of Alexandria
        4 Polluted Delta
        1 Tolarian Academy
        3 Underground Sea
        2 Volcanic Island
        1 Island
        1 Snow-Covered Island
// Artifact Mana (7)
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Lotus Petal
        1 Mana Crypt
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Sol Ring
// Disruption (10)
        3 Mana Drain
        4 Force of Will
        3 Thoughtseize
// Card Drawing (11)
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Brainstorm
        1 Ponder
        4 Thirst for Knowledge
        1 Fact or Fiction
        3 Chromatic Star
// Tutors (5)
        1 Mystical Tutor
        1 Merchant Scroll
        1 Tinker
        1 Vampiric Tutor
        1 Demonic Tutor
// Removal (6)
        2 Cunning Wish
        1 Fire/Ice
        2 Engineered Explosives
        1 Tormod's Crypt
// Win (5)
        1 Time Walk
        1 Yawgmoth's Will
        2 Goblin Welder        
        1 Platinum Angel
// Sideboard (15)
SB:  1 Blue Elemental Blast
SB:  1 Stifle
SB:  1 Brain Freeze
SB:  1 Hurkyl's Recall
SB:  1 Gush
SB:  1 Extirpate
SB:  4 Leyline of the Void
SB:  1 Smother
SB:  1 Firestorm
SB:  1 Pyroblast
SB:  1 Red Elemental Blast
SB:  1 Rack and Ruin


The Draw Engine
In Oscar Tan's last article, he outlined 5 key lessons from the old school that "The Deck" had taught.  The third was to use the most powerful draw engine possible.  With Gush gone, that title is certainly up for dispute.  But in looking to the past, we also must refer to lessons taught by multiple teachers.  In deciding what draw engine to use, I turned to Stephen "Smmenen" Menendian's Ten Principles of Vintage.  In it he argues that Grim Tutor, Bazaar of Baghdad, and Thirst for Knowledge (and Gifts Ungiven, but that's no longer available) are the best unrestricted engines in Vintage.  To live up to the spirit of hte Deck, however, Thirst for Knowledge makes the most sense.  However, Tan also suggests that to make a draw engine work to its full potential,  you have to build a deck around it that takes advantage of it.  Bring in everyone's favorite goblin, Goblin Welder.

With a Thirst for Knowledge + Goblin Welder engine established, the deck starts sounding a lot like the Control Slaver of old.  The primary reason I chose not to follow in Slaver's footsteps, however, is that Vintage has indeed changed with the restriction of Brainstorm.  Slaver was designed with Brainstorm in mind to put back dead high CC artifacts in your hand when Thirst for Knowledge wasn't available, especially the early game.  To make a Thirst for Knowledge + Goblin Welder deck work efficiently, it is necessary to use fewer potentially dead cards, and an efficient drawing engine to stand in for Brainstorm as Thirst for Knowledge's little helper.  Additionally, Slaver also ran only either a splash of Black, or no Black at all.  With the departure of Brainstorm and Ponder, the use of Duress and/or Thoughtseize definitely seems much stronger as they make great turn 1 moves that have only gotten stronger without Brainstorm to dodge them.  In practice, while the deck might look superficiall similar to Slaver, it plays quite differently, without an emphasis on rushing out Welder and bombs into the graveyard with Thirst.

After a significant amount of testing trying to find a good 1 mana filter spell, I established one main criteria: the filter card must be an artifact.  By cutting the high CC bombs, I had reduced the artifact count dangerously low for Thirst for Knowledge and Goblin Welder, so the artifact count had to be increased.  As long as I needed artifacts anyway, it would be most efficient to use artifacts to filter cards in order to spare slots.  This narrowed my choices to Sensei's Divining Top, and, strangely enough, Chromatic Star.  Both cards are 1 cc artifacts, and both can take advantage of Goblin Welder to draw more.  After testing both, I decided upon Chromatic Star.  Unorthodox as it may seem, Chromatic Star does have some nice advantages over Sensei's Divining Top, despite the loss in card selection.  Chromatic Stars could cycle themselves without a shuffle effect (which are greatly reduced without Merchant Scroll, as well as having fewer fetch lands due to the loss of Brainstorm).  They could also help you to fix colors, which is actually relevant in a 3 color deck with nearly equal counts of Black and Red in a meta that will probably feature many Wastelands (as Tan's first lesson from the old school goes, the mana base is fragile).  Turning excessive colorless mana from Mana Drain or Blue mana from Tolarian Academy into something useful is another plus.

The Removal
The fourth of Oscar Tan's lessons was not to forget the removal.  With both Brainstorm and Merchant Scroll gone the days of running Echoing Truth 1x are over.  I decided to devote 5 slots to removal: 2 to Cunning Wish, 2 to Engineered Explosives, and 1 each to Fire/Ice and Tormod's Crypt. All are versatile, broadly usable cards.  Engineered Explosives and Tormod's Crypt also benefit from being artifacts, and the Cunning Wihes and Fire/Ice can be fetched by the one remaining Merchant Scroll.  While Cunning Wish has not seen much play of late, it was used in Keeper and other decks to find situational bombs.  Oscar Tan even wrote a whole article for the Control Player's Bible to describe its use.  As most of the spells in the deck are fairly low cost, having Cunning Wish also provides useful ways (alongside Yawgmoth's Will and hardcasting Platinum Angel) to sink mana from a good-sized Mana Drain.

The Win
Smmenen's 2nd principle of Vintage is that Yawgmoth's Will and Tinker are the format's defining cards.  This deck happily takes advantage of both.  Yawgmoth's Win is a no-brainer, and Tinker synergizes nicely with the artifacts and Welders to serve as a tutor and enable for Platinum Angel and Black Lotus.  Platinum Angel is the primary method of killing the opponent, but Cunning Wish -> Brain Freeze can also be used to end the late game or a massive Yawgmoth's Will turn.  Even lowly Welder beats also work once you have control.  

The Mana Base
The land count may seem low in a post-Brainstorm world, but the mana curve of this deck is very low and there are good card filtering mechanisms in place.  Tolarian Academy makes sense in a deck with so many cheap artifacts.  Library of Alexandria, while slow, is still restricted for good reason: if it sits there long enough it buries the opponent.  It synergizes well with Chromatic Stars, which you can drop when you have extra cards and use to refill your hand when you're at 5 or 6 cards later.  The slightly low artifact mana count is surprising in a Slaver-esque deck, but this deck doesn't plan to hardcast things like Sundering Titan or Mindslaver, so they are unnecessary.  They're also a potential liability as Null Rods come back in the new meta, and don't synergize well with the use of Engineered Explosives.

The Sideboard (and Wish Toolbox)
Obviously sideboards are very situational and must be suited to a meta, which in this case we know nothing about.  As a result, I've provided a very general sidebard with versatile answers, and the ubiquitous Leyline of the Void x4 to deal with Ichorid.  Also notable is Gush to protect lands, refill your hand for Library of Alexandria, or avoid missing a land drop.

I look forward to everyone's thoughts, comments, and questions. - bluemage55

Edit: List and reasoning updated to reflect changes.

[arctic79]

I really, really like this deck.  It's well thought out and rationalized.  My only dispute with it is the singleton Gush.  Seems like it will only be good when you have drain mana available, granted it is a great card but maybe another blue draw spell would be more effective considering the mana base and the overall objective of this deck (Gifts, Intuition, etc.).

[Zherbus]

Looks an awful lot like Slaver minus some key cards for Chromatic Sphere. It's very light on GY hate for my liking. Additionally, I see two anti-Workshop cards where there should be more mitigation. Finally, it's missing a lot of explosiveness where it could definitely use more moxen and definitely Mana Crypt.

I know I said finally, but that was a lie.

The draw engine doesn't perform better the expected control deck-to-beat. It's the same engine, but less of it. That's going to be huge.

In short, if we expect a metagame consisting of large amounts of Ichorid, Workshop, and Control Slaver you are likely to be behind the curve against all of it. I see there *are* answers there, but I think it's way too barebones to have the desired effect that Keeper had of attacking the metagame from the outside.

[Shock Wave]

That single Gush is really terrible. At least run a fourth Thirst for Knowledge. Like Z said, your draw engine is not adequate, making your neo-control matchups unfavourable. You are missing Tormod's Crypt in the maindeck, which is something that today's Keeper (if such a thing is even viable) should definitely run.

Have you run this list against against anything? I mean, it's not like there's a metagame to test against, but you should at least run it against Shop-Aggro and Ichorid to get a feel for its viability.

[bluemage55]

Looks an awful lot like Slaver minus some key cards for Chromatic Sphere.

As stated in the article, it does look like Slaver due to the similarity in drawing engines.  However, the key differences in the use of Duress effects, as well as efficient artifacts rather than big bombs that are likely to wind up as dead cards now that BS is gone, result in the deck being played very differently.

It's very light on GY hate for my liking.

Are you referring to the sideboard or main?  I've considered T. Crypt in place of the Chromatic Sphere.

Finally, it's missing a lot of explosiveness where it could definitely use more moxen and definitely Mana Crypt.

What exactly would I need the additional explosiveness for?  Powering out Thirst for Knowledge on turn 1?  The deck is more than capable of making strong Turn 1 plays with Thoughtseize, Welder, and the restricted cards (Ancestral/BS/Ponder/Mystical/Vampiric). 

Extra artifact mana also increases my vulnerability to hate like Null Rod and CotV.

The draw engine doesn't perform better the expected control deck-to-beat. It's the same engine, but less of it. That's going to be huge.

I've tested against Drain Tendrils.  By using conserving my disruption to use against their card drawing, I've found the matchups to be favorable.  Generally they've turned into a slugfest that results in the near-emptying of both our hands, a position that favors this deck.

In short, if we expect a metagame consisting of large amounts of Ichorid, Workshop, and Control Slaver you are likely to be behind the curve against all of it. 

I haven't tested against Ichorid yet.  I expect the matchup to be somewhat disadvantages unless I modify the deck to run Crypt maindeck and possibly sb Leylines.  I'll have to see.

I've tested favorably against Workshop.  Welders, removal, and disruption all combine to make this deck difficult to lock down, and Draining my way into dropping Platz on the board (whether by Tinker, TfK, or hardcast) generally ends the game against Shop aggro.

I've tested a few matches against Control Slaver, and the matchup seems reasonable.  Slaver has the potential to blow me out of the water, if it manages to draw well.  If it hits dead cards, however, it runs into trouble.  In this matchup I feel like my deck is the consistent one, with Slaver's luck of the draw determining who has the advantage.

I see there *are* answers there, but I think it's way too barebones to have the desired effect that Keeper had of attacking the metagame from the outside.

Attacking the meta from the outside?  Could you elaborate on what you mean by that?

[bluemage55]

That single Gush is really terrible. At least run a fourth Thirst for Knowledge.

Any particular reason why you think it's terrible?  I've found it to do some neat tricks with dodging Wasteland, getting to 3 mana spells on turn 3 without a third land, and just sinking Drain mana into.  Am I falling into the danger of cool things?

Like Z said, your draw engine is not adequate, making your neo-control matchups unfavourable.

In addition to replacing the Gush with a 4th Thirst, what else should I add?  Fact perhaps?

You are missing Tormod's Crypt in the maindeck, which is something that today's Keeper (if such a thing is even viable) should definitely run.

I've considered it.  I'll test further and see whether to drop the singleton Sphere for it.

Have you run this list against against anything? I mean, it's not like there's a metagame to test against, but you should at least run it against Shop-Aggro and Ichorid to get a feel for its viability.

I've tested on MWS against other players testing for the new meta.  I haven't yet run it against a gauntlet, as I plan to do so after considering the suggestions provided by the community, and testing those suggestions against those matchups.

[Ufactor]

The environment is finally slow enough for 3-4cc control to be good.  Characteristically, Keeper needs short steady bursts of card drawing (which is possible) coupled with a solid disruption package (also possible).  But the problem, here, is, as always, the mana base.

If you go with hand destruction as the main source of disruption, you get Duress, Thoughtseize, Balance and Mind Twist.  Without a reliable clock, however, hand destruction only does half the job, as it leaves the opponent the opportunity to topdeck something to ruin your day.

If you go with mana destruction as the main source of disruption, you get Gorilla Shaman, Wasteland, Strip Mine, Tinker/Crucible, and Null Rod in the sideboard if you really wanted it (ala ICBM Oath).  The problem is (as Zherbus has said umpteen times) is that you're forced to have RBUU and possibly W, if you're running Balance, all within the first two turns of the game - and still play Wastelands.

[bluemage55]

The environment is finally slow enough for 3-4cc control to be good.  Characteristically, Keeper needs short steady bursts of card drawing (which is possible) coupled with a solid disruption package (also possible).  But the problem, here, is, as always, the mana base.

You are thinking too much in terms of what Keeper used to be.  The Deck's identity doesn't come from the fact that it uses particular cards or 4 colors.  It's identity comes from the way the deck is played; it is the spirit of the Weissman-style control deck of Defend, Stabilize, Win.  When you see Drain decks, you are looking at the progeny of Keeper.  That is the reason that Oscar Tan, in his last article, considered Control Slaver, Gifts, and Oath (the Drain-style Oath at the time) to be the different paths that Keeper split into.

3-4cc control might look like Keeper.  But it doesn't hold to the spirit of Keeper of being the control deck that uses the strongest draw engine and versatile bombs available to tear through the opposition.

If you go with hand destruction as the main source of disruption, you get Duress, Thoughtseize, Balance and Mind Twist.  Without a reliable clock, however, hand destruction only does half the job, as it leaves the opponent the opportunity to topdeck something to ruin your day.

Hand disruption is not the main source of disruption for Keeper;  it is the combation of countermagic and removal that is.  Mind Twist and Balance were in the deck because they were utterly broken at the time, not because they were part of any coherent theme of disruption.  In fact, Oscar Tan actually advoacted against using Duress.  Duress was never consistently part of those decks that Tan considered the heirs of Keeper.  But the speeding up of the metagame and the decline of Aggro has made Duress an increasingly integral part of every control and combo-control deck's arsenal lest they be overrun on the opponent's second turn on the play.

If you go with mana destruction as the main source of disruption, you get Gorilla Shaman, Wasteland, Strip Mine, Tinker/Crucible, and Null Rod in the sideboard if you really wanted it (ala ICBM Oath).  The problem is (as Zherbus has said umpteen times) is that you're forced to have RBUU and possibly W, if you're running Balance, all within the first two turns of the game - and still play Wastelands.

Have you actually looked at the list?  I'm not running White, nor do I intend to, because of the danger to the mana base.  My list is designed to function perfectly off UUBR, which is achievable with a single Underground Sea and a single Volcanic Island in play.

Mana denial is not the main source of disruption for this deck.  While not mentioned by Tan, Landstill is the inheritor of Keeper's mana denial plan.  Used alone against blue, Wastelands are simply not the monster they were 6 years ago because of the printing of fetch lands and the now-standard inclusion of basic lands.  For a mana denial plan to work today, one must build their deck around it.  Without running 4x Stifle and Null Rods however, which would fundamentally change the deck, my list cannot ever be as good at mana denial as decks such as Landstill and DeezNoughts are.

[Zherbus]

There's a lot of semantics that you assume here, which is really not an argument I want to get in.

Calling it something, doesn't make it something.

You can take Drain Tendrils, cut important cards, and call it Keeper. You did that very thing with Slaver and justified it by claiming your artifacts were efficient over big dead bombs and therefore make the deck play different. Firstly, TFK still filters those bombs in to the GY in Slaver. Secondly, your efficient artifacts don't DO anything until a Welder is online. And what they do is worse than what Welder can do with a Mind Slaver or Triskelavus. I mean, you're running 3x Welder, why not run cards that just win.

The important thing here isn't that you're calling it Keeper. Call it Meandeck Gifts for all I care. But don't tell me because the deck PLAYS different that it's any better. This list is not going to beat Control Slaver, Ichorid, and Workshops reliably.

Control Slaver runs better draw by Virtue of having all 4 of it's TFK's right off the bat. It's opening hand won't run such tempo-black holes as the Chromatics.

Ichorid should consider you a bye game 1, unless you rush out Tinker-Platz in time. Of course, this will be more difficult because you're skimping on acceleration. Scrambling for a Cunning Wish to get Extirpate will be often too little too late. Game 2 you do get a pair of needles, but that's very light. Tormod's Crypt maindeck will help, but not running something like a set of Leyline will haunt you.

Workshops should have a field day with this. Instead of doing stuff, you have to now pay 2 mana under a Sphere of Resistance to play your Chromatics. Then another to draw a card. That's a lot of time invested in digging for a Welder or Wish to have a prayer. Also given the lack of acceleration, you are basically giving up your chance to get artifact acceleration out to neuter Workshops mana-assault. I mean, you're not even running SOL RING, but your deck revolves around TFK and Cunning Wish.

Oscar Tan is not an Authority on, well, anything Magic related. He never was.

Oscar Tan is really not a person to cite on such lists. You do realize he never actually really played Magical tournaments, right? And what Magic he did play ended easily half a decade ago. He played via Apprentice and took the games he won for his articles, but I know firsthand he discarded all the games where he got blown out.

I've tested...

I guess I don't care what you say you tested. There are some real issues with the deck and testing can be flawed or biased. You're taking a bold step with the Vintage community by trying to sell something that's got fundamental flaws. That's what it feels like, a sales pitch.

Attacking the meta from the outside?  Could you elaborate on what you mean by that?

You could go to StarCityGames and look at my articles, I think I did a good job there albeit way outdated.

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/9115.html

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/9205.html

[bluemage55]

Calling it something, doesn't make it something.

And I'm not assuming that it does.  I'm suggesting that this deck follows in the traditions of Keeper and the Weissman school.  Despite being different from both the U/W/b/r/g deck in its earliest incarnation and the U/B/w/r/g deck of Keeper, this deck follows the principles established by Weissman: gradually gaining card advantage while answering opposing threats, then playing a single large threat which is sufficient to win the game.

You can take Drain Tendrils, cut important cards, and call it Keeper. You did that very thing with Slaver and justified it by claiming your artifacts were efficient over big dead bombs and therefore make the deck play different.

Try playing a game with this list and a game with Control Slaver.  You'll notice a significant difference.  While Slaver is focused on turning big dead cards into massive threats, this deck focuses on defending and filtering through the deck, which is a function of its stronger control and removal package.

Firstly, TFK still filters those bombs in to the GY in Slaver.

As previously mentioned, Slaver was designed with Brainstorm in mind to put back dead cards when TfK wasn't available, especially in the early game.  Slaver without Brainstorm is going to have trouble due to having fewer control/removal cards at critical junctures like an opponent's attempt to resolve their own bombs.

Secondly, your efficient artifacts don't DO anything until a Welder is online. And what they do is worse than what Welder can do with a Mind Slaver or Triskelavus. I mean, you're running 3x Welder, why not run cards that just win.

The Chromatic Stars are not dead until Welder is online.  They provide functionality both by cycling and by color fixing, and still pitch to TfK.

The important thing here isn't that you're calling it Keeper. Call it Meandeck Gifts for all I care. But don't tell me because the deck PLAYS different that it's any better. This list is not going to beat Control Slaver, Ichorid, and Workshops reliably.

I'm suggesting that the way that this deck plays is better than other control decks will in the new environment due to the new restrictions.  Because Brainstorm, Ponder, and Merchant Scroll are no longer around to enable consistency, this deck runs different cycling cards as well as extra control and removal elements in order to ensure it has what it needs in time.

Control Slaver runs better draw by Virtue of having all 4 of it's TFK's right off the bat. It's opening hand won't run such tempo-black holes as the Chromatics.

Control Slaver, as well as other decks, have lost a good chunk of their ideal turn 1 plays with the restrictions.  This decklist doesn't prefer to throw down a Chromatic as its turn 1 play, but with Brainstorm and Ponder restricted, that might be all you can do.  That same reason is also why I've chosen to run a decklist with more black and Thoughtseize, something that Slaver does not because it is primarily or entirely UR.

Control Slaver decks in the new meta as advocated by some others are merely going to be doing the same with Top instead of Chromatics.

Ichorid should consider you a bye game 1, unless you rush out Tinker-Platz in time. Of course, this will be more difficult because you're skimping on acceleration. Scrambling for a Cunning Wish to get Extirpate will be often too little too late. Game 2 you do get a pair of needles, but that's very light. Tormod's Crypt maindeck will help, but not running something like a set of Leyline will haunt you.

As mentioned in the article, the above sideboard is against a completely unknown meta, and is filled with as general cards as possible for that purpose.  Leyline x4 would obviously be a strong consideration if GY hate appears necessary.  What I have in the sideboard can be changed on a whim, and hardly has anything to do with the core concept of the deck.

Workshops should have a field day with this. Instead of doing stuff, you have to now pay 2 mana under a Sphere of Resistance to play your Chromatics. Then another to draw a card. That's a lot of time invested in digging for a Welder or Wish to have a prayer. Also given the lack of acceleration, you are basically giving up your chance to get artifact acceleration out to neuter Workshops mana-assault. I mean, you're not even running SOL RING, but your deck revolves around TFK and Cunning Wish.

Is mana acceleration really a good idea to deal with Workshops, given how bad they are on the play against a deck that runs Sphere and Chalice?  And have not people been predicting a rise in Null Rod?

Oscar Tan is not an Authority on, well, anything Magic related. He never was.

Oscar Tan is really not a person to cite on such lists. You do realize he never actually really played Magical tournaments, right? And what Magic he did play ended easily half a decade ago. He played via Apprentice and took the games he won for his articles, but I know firsthand he discarded all the games where he got blown out.

As far as I'm aware, he played in tournaments in the Phillipines.  Regardless of how he arrived at descriptions for his matchups, he was still considered an authority on Type 1 in the past.  While he hasn't been an authority for some time, in the past he has been consulted by Aaron Forsythe on bannings and restrictions, and Smmenen cites him as well.  He was a standard bearer for the Vintage community.  When discussing Keeper in particular, Oscar Tan seems a particularly appropriate source of Magic theory.

I guess I don't care what you say you tested. There are some real issues with the deck and testing can be flawed or biased. You're taking a bold step with the Vintage community by trying to sell something that's got fundamental flaws.

Whether this deck has fundamental flaws or not is certainly what we're discussing, so I'll object to your statement on the basis of insufficient foundation.

But let us discuss that: What are you saying are the fundamental flaws of this deck?  Things like insufficent GY hate or the need for additional or fewer moxen aren't really fundamental problems, they're just details with the execution.  Other than those, the only real thing you've suggested is that the draw engine is inadequate.

That's what it feels like, a sales pitch. 

Every deck article is a sales pitch, a proposal that the deck is viable in the unforgiving gauntlet of Vintage.  I don't see why you're bringing that up, except as a random personal attack.

You could go to StarCityGames and look at my articles, I think I did a good job there albeit way outdated.

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/9115.html

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/9205.html

That is an interesting way of looking at it.  I would argue,however, that every control deck (and probably all decks) need to consider the metagame in deck design.

Keeping in mind those principles is probably why my list looks little like your multi-colored control lists.  The key here is that I'm not trying to emulate the specific cards wielded by Keeper and The Deck in the past.  I'm not trying to use specific broken cards like Balance.  Rather, I'm adhereing to the spirit of the Weissman school, that of defending first and winning later.

[nineisnoone]

The Chromatic Stars are not dead until Welder is online.  They provide functionality both by cycling and by color fixing, and still pitch to TfK.

You're mistaking nothing, with less than nothing. Fix your mana with your manabase. Chromatic Star should not be run for that purpose. And I understand (or hope) that it's not, that's merely incidental, but at best it's fixing an error that should be addressed otherwise.  Besides that it does nothing (replacing itself).  It does pitch to TfK, but there are other artifact options.  Personally, since you are mox light, my first instinct would be more EE's in the main.  Decks powering out artifacts will get wiped by it, and it'll deal with 1/2 cost creatures, zombie tokens, and resistors.

But really, chromatic star screams "there is something better than me!" And 5? I don't really want to open with one in my opening hand, let alone multiples.

[Ufactor]

Oscar Tan is not an Authority on, well, anything Magic related. He never was.

Oscar Tan is really not a person to cite on such lists. You do realize he never actually really played Magical tournaments, right? And what Magic he did play ended easily half a decade ago. He played via Apprentice and took the games he won for his articles, but I know firsthand he discarded all the games where he got blown out.

As far as I'm aware, he played in tournaments in the Phillipines.  Regardless of how he arrived at descriptions for his matchups, he was still considered an authority on Type 1 in the past.  While he hasn't been an authority for some time, in the past he has been consulted by Aaron Forsythe on bannings and restrictions, and Smmenen cites him as well.  He was a standard bearer for the Vintage community.  When discussing Keeper in particular, Oscar Tan seems a particularly appropriate source of Magic theory.

If Rakso was playing in tournaments, they were improptu events held in college lounges, with a couple dozen, or less, people.  At that time, Neutral Ground NYC was the Vintage epicenter of the world.  New England, Virginia, The Ohio Valley, Canada and Duleman were all up-and-coming little hotspots of tech.  The Philippines weren't even a blip on the radar.  Rakso was a decent writer, brought in by SCG because he was palatable and good at explaining things at the BEGINNER level.  If you want to learn about Keeper, read old articles by people from one of those areas like Darren Di Batista, JPMeyer, Smmenen, and, of course, Zherbus.

EDIT: Carl Winter, Vinny Pau and Eric Wilkinson were all putting up numbers with Keeper, but there would be no articles - only deck lists or scant tournament reports available from those people.

[Nydaeli]

Phyrexian Furnace might be a better option for the cheap-artifact-cantrip-with-marginal-utility slot.  They may be too slow against really degenerate graveyard decks, but they're likely still more useful than Stars.  (Coincidentally, they show up in one of Zherbus's "way outdated" articles as well.)

[God_Campbell]

Is mana acceleration really a good idea to deal with Workshops, given how bad they are on the play against a deck that runs Sphere and Chalice?  And have not people been predicting a rise in Null Rod?

I am sorry, but just because null rod/spheres and chalices will be out in force is not a reason to just cut basically all the artifact acceleration for the deck. It does suck when you have useless mana in hand or in play, but for the times you will not be able to use them there will be many more times that those same mana producing artifacts will allow you to get ahead with card draw and seal the game.

Sol Ring, the 5 moxes, black lotus...I can understand an aversion to cards like mana crypt or mana vault or even lotus petal, but those 7 cards will be the core of post restriction control mana bases, but don't take my word for it just look at lists once they start rolliing in.

[RJ]

Whether this deck has fundamental flaws or not is certainly what we're discussing, so I'll object to your statement on the basis of insufficient foundation.

Let's take a further look at this point, since most of us who have played the deck for any period of time think that this list does have fundamental flaws.

Mana Base:

This deck has a very light mana base for a deck that has traditionally been quite mana intensive.  Even your list has 3 thirsts, 2 cunning wishes, and only gifts(what exactly do you gifts for) to get with early game wishes when you need to generate CA.  Those are very mana intesive spells and you only have 21 sources with 2 basics.  Decks in the new meta will prey on poorly constructed mana bases and this one will more than likely fall prey.  You must play Sol Ring in a list that is so hungry for colorless mana.  Also the current list will struggle with the early wasteland.  Most of your productive turn one plays will be underground into thoughtseize, which will open you to wasteland.  I don't really consider laying a mana sphere a productive turn one, especially when the decks we know are going to be in the meta (DT, Slaver, Ichorid, Shops) are probably going to be more productive.

Card selection:

Traditional builds of this deck use cards that are flexible and powerful.  This deck has 5 slots that stand out as weird without even reading your explanation.  The mana spheres are tempo killers, not actually producing anything useful without welder.  What color fixing do you need? You run 3 colors one of which you don't really need (R) to be readily available. 

Welder with TFK is a decent engine, but why would you only run 3 TFK.  That makes no sense.  It is easily the most powerful blue unrestricted card drawer and you choose to run 3.  All the other control decks that run it will run 4.  As Zherbus said that will make you slower and worse. 

Also the selection of Welder to use as a pseudo draw engine is probably wrong as the new meta should be including GY hate main.  This could completely neuter your sphere trick leaving you with only ancestral and 3 TFK to draw.  This makes your control matchups pretty difficult.

Your only tinker target is Platz.  This is bad cause you might actually draw the angel.  That would make tinker a dead card in your list.  At a minimum you should at least include DSC.  He will be huge in the upcoming months.

You only run 3 thoughtseize and 3 drain.  I can't see why you wouldn't run 4 of each.  You haven't established that there "just wasn't enough room" for these bombs.  It's strange that you didn't address this at all.

The singular gush is terrible.  Outside of a couple specific instances, the gush does not affect the board enough to warrant a spot.  Granted it's better than the spheres but what isn't.

Your plan against resolved threats is completely lacking.  You do have some answers, but you only have 3 and no reliable way to find them.  Also the answers are shallow in scope and may not be able to deal with the threat that resolved.  I don't think that it is a good idea to go into battle this way especially with a deck that you call Keeper. 

Game Plan:

This is the biggest problem.  You quote Tan and Weissman schools of thinking and yet this deck does not exhibit these principles.  This type of deck will find the weakness of the metagame or proposed meta and exploit that using powerful spells.  Both of those theories utilized broad based approaches to different strategies to control the board state until the control deck has won the battle of attrition.  Weissman used permanent sources of CA like Disrupting Scepter and Jayemdae Tome to  whittle away at the opponent.  Tan took from these principles and adapted the deck to the metagame using cards like Mind Twist and Balance.  You don't use any of these cards or any of the ideas behind these cards.   

I understand you are trying to innovate, but looking at the list your control elements are somewhat present but weak.  Let's take a look.

// Disruption (10)
        3 Mana Drain
        4 Force of Will
        3 Thoughtseize

This is a good start for disruption, but why not 4 of each.  That would be a better start.

// Tutors (7)
        1 Mystical Tutor
        1 Merchant Scroll
        2 Cunning Wish
        1 Tinker
        1 Vampiric Tutor
        1 Demonic Tutor

This tutor suite is standard for the list, except you list will not make the wishes active until turn 3 most of the time, which in all likelihood maybe too late.  I already talked about the lack of tinker targets.

// Removal (3)
        1 Echoing Truth
        1 Fire/Ice
        1 Engineered Explosives

This is what does not subscribe to the Weismann shool as you claim.  While these are very flexible cards, they do not give you enough options against the resolved threats.  This was the nice thing about Weismann decks, in that when your opponent played a spell, you had to decide how you wanted to deal with it.  With only these answers in the main, you better counter it or you may be in trouble. 

3 Goblin Welder       
        1 Platinum Angel

This is your plan for winning at your leisure.  While welder beats is ok for a stax build where your opponent cannot play spells, it's probably a mistake to rely on that to win in this decks.  Aggro can just race you.  One of the important plans of Weismann was to use offensive defensive creatures like Serra Angel and then Morphling.  Those creatures are still good, but Meloku would be much better.  That card is precisely what a deck like this will use as a creature.  Zherbus has advocated Goblin Trenches, Decree of Justice, and Exalted Angel in the past. These types of finishers are exactly what this school likes to use since they can be defensive.  Just recently I used Hoofprints of the Stag as my finisher of choice, although that will be no good since brainstorm was the biggest culprit for charging it.  This section of your deck is the most lacking, assuming that you actually do get control. 

Overall, I am positive that these theories are outdated and cannot be applied to a format that is intrinsically more broken than the format for which those decks and theories were generated.  While some of the basic ideas can be applied, you need to look at the format as it is now.  This list does not control the board enough, to be a control deck, and cannot win fast enough against other broken starts.  Generally, this deck is designed to be ~50/50 with most all of the field, but this list will never accomplish that with so many glaring errors. 

[JoshuaD]

How come you think the sphere's are better than sensei's divining top?  It seems to me that the top will be much stronger.

[bluemage55]

But really, chromatic star screams "there is something better than me!" And 5? I don't really want to open with one in my opening hand, let alone multiples.

For the purposes of drawing through Welding, the only cantrip artifacts that fulfill that purpose are Chromatic Star and Sensei's Divining Top.

Phyrexian Furnace might be a better option for the cheap-artifact-cantrip-with-marginal-utility slot.  They may be too slow against really degenerate graveyard decks, but they're likely still more useful than Stars.  (Coincidentally, they show up in one of Zherbus's "way outdated" articles as well.)

Phyrexian Furnace cannot be used with Welders to draw cards.

I am sorry, but just because null rod/spheres and chalices will be out in force is not a reason to just cut basically all the artifact acceleration for the deck.

Control Slaver runs 9 sources of artifact mana, and two fewer lands.  Given the signifcantly decreased number of high CC cards here, I would disagree that I have cut "basically all the artificant acceleration", as I have retained 5 sources.

It does suck when you have useless mana in hand or in play, but for the times you will not be able to use them there will be many more times that those same mana producing artifacts will allow you to get ahead with card draw and seal the game.

It doesn't just suck when they're dead cards.  It loses you the game when you cannot Brainstorm them back for business spells. 

Sol Ring, the 5 moxes, black lotus...I can understand an aversion to cards like mana crypt or mana vault or even lotus petal, but those 7 cards will be the core of post restriction control mana bases, but don't take my word for it just look at lists once they start rolliing in.

I fully expect those cards to be the core of the mana bases, right up until Null Rods, Chalices, and Gorilla Shamans stomp control decks as a result of having to deal with too many threats.

[bluemage55]

This deck has a very light mana base for a deck that has traditionally been quite mana intensive. 

This list runs 15 spells of 1cc, 8 spells of 2cc, 8 spells of 3cc, and potentially 1 of 4cc (if you Wish for Gifts).  That's not a very high mana curve.

Even your list has 3 thirsts, 2 cunning wishes, and only gifts(what exactly do you gifts for) to get with early game wishes when you need to generate CA.  Those are very mana intesive spells and you only have 21 sources with 2 basics. 

Welder tricks also generate CA, and the 5 Chromatics, BS, Ponder, and Scroll all serve to filter for drawing if they are desirable.

As for casting those spells, Drains also serve to generate mana alongside those 21 sources.

Gifts can be used to find Mystical, Vampiric, Demonic, X if all three are in the deck to generate a win off Yawgmoth's Will, to tutor any four cards of choice if Will or a tutor is already in my hand, all 4 of the useful lands (Library, Academy, Strip Mine, and a fetch) if I have Crucible, or Thirst/Scroll/Tutor/Platinum or if I have Welder. 

You must play Sol Ring in a list that is so hungry for colorless mana.  

It's already been under consideration in place of the Petal.

Also the current list will struggle with the early wasteland.  Most of your productive turn one plays will be underground into thoughtseize, which will open you to wasteland. 

Three of my turn one plays are Thoughtseize.  The deck is definitely able to play around Wasteland, and only benefits from the use of Chromatics in this regard.  Further, the moment Crucible is cast, Tinkered out, or welded out, the Wastelands stop being a problem.

I don't really consider laying a mana sphere a productive turn one, especially when the decks we know are going to be in the meta (DT, Slaver, Ichorid, Shops) are probably going to be more productive.

DT will cast either the same restricted spells on turn 1 (Ancestral/BS/Ponder/Mystical/Vampiric), Sensei's Top, or AK for 1.  That's not a particularly significant advantage over this list, and doesn't have the advantage of turn 1 Thoughtseize or Turn 1 Welder.  Slaver also doesn't have significant different options, except an additional Welder or Gorilla Shaman, in place of the Thoughtseizes.  Ichorid and Shop turn 1 plays are definitely superior to this list's, but that's always been the case for their matchups against blue (with the exception of Ancestral or Fastbond -> go broken).

Traditional builds of this deck use cards that are flexible and powerful.  This deck has 5 slots that stand out as weird without even reading your explanation.  The mana spheres are tempo killers, not actually producing anything useful without welder.  What color fixing do you need? You run 3 colors one of which you don't really need (R) to be readily available.  

The color fixing is most valuable when playing around Wastelands.

Welder with TFK is a decent engine, but why would you only run 3 TFK.  That makes no sense.  It is easily the most powerful blue unrestricted card drawer and you choose to run 3.  All the other control decks that run it will run 4.  As Zherbus said that will make you slower and worse. 

The reason for 3 was the feeling that I didn't have enough artifacs to support the full 4, as well as the effect of raising the mana curve further by having 4.  Given the input recieved here, I believe I will be updating the list to run 4 TfKs and dropping the Gush.

Also the selection of Welder to use as a pseudo draw engine is probably wrong as the new meta should be including GY hate main.  This could completely neuter your sphere trick leaving you with only ancestral and 3 TFK to draw.  This makes your control matchups pretty difficult.

A look at the different decks that have been suggested on TMD for the new meta does not suggest GY hate main.  Even if we do see it, this is likely only to take the form of T. Crypt x1.  I do not anticipate decks running 4x Leyline MD or more T. Crypts.

Your only tinker target is Platz.  This is bad cause you might actually draw the angel.  That would make tinker a dead card in your list.  At a minimum you should at least include DSC.  He will be huge in the upcoming months.

Both Crucible and BLotus are viable Tinker targets.

You only run 3 thoughtseize and 3 drain.  I can't see why you wouldn't run 4 of each.  You haven't established that there "just wasn't enough room" for these bombs.  It's strange that you didn't address this at all.

Space is in a premium in every deck, but I agree I should have addressed this.  The main reason for 3 Drains is that Drains have been weak for quite some time.  There have been numerous times when I would have rather played a Duress effect.  As for not having 4 or more Duress effects, the reason is that additional disruption does not seem necessary enough to merit the space.  Ritual combo runs 4 disruption slots, DT runs 8, and the post-6/20 Slaver deck on the Improvement forum runs the exact same 10 (except Duress over Thoughtseize).  Already this deck has a stronger control package then most.  I would rather devote the additional space to removal.

The singular gush is terrible.  Outside of a couple specific instances, the gush does not affect the board enough to warrant a spot.  Granted it's better than the spheres but what isn't.

As previously mentioned, it's in the deck for those specific tricks: simply casting with drain mana, getting to 3 or 4 mana on turn 3 when a land drop is missed, filling the hand to use Library, and dodging Wastelands.  I am currently considering its removal.

Your plan against resolved threats is completely lacking.  You do have some answers, but you only have 3 and no reliable way to find them.  Also the answers are shallow in scope and may not be able to deal with the threat that resolved.  I don't think that it is a good idea to go into battle this way especially with a deck that you call Keeper.

Aside from Fire/Ice, EE, and E. Truth, the deck also runs Cunning Wish x2.  The wyas to find them are virtually the same as every other deck in the new meta, as Brainstorms and Scrolls are no longer available.  Between these 5 cards, however, this list will draw what it needs to deal with the threats that slip through the 10 control slots.

This is the biggest problem.  You quote Tan and Weissman schools of thinking and yet this deck does not exhibit these principles.  This type of deck will find the weakness of the metagame or proposed meta and exploit that using powerful spells. 

You are mistaken.  Zherbus proposed using 4c control to attack the weaknesses of the metagame.  Weissman and Tan, on the other hand, both wrote with the expectation that Keeper was the deck to beat.

The principles that I have been following have already been outlined: gradually gaining card advantage while answering opposing threats, then playing a single large threat and protecting it to  win the game. 

Both of those theories utilized broad based approaches to different strategies to control the board state until the control deck has won the battle of attrition.  Weissman used permanent sources of CA like Disrupting Scepter and Jayemdae Tome to  whittle away at the opponent. 

Welder tricks, Crucible, and a protected Platinum Angel are all permanent sources of controlling the board and whittling away at the opponent.

Tan took from these principles and adapted the deck to the metagame using cards like Mind Twist and Balance.  You don't use any of these cards or any of the ideas behind these cards. 

The idea behind those cards was simply that they were broken sources of card advantage.  In his last article, he suggests that today's deck have more consistent sources of brokenness, suich as Welder, Tinker, TfK, and Gifts. 

I fully use the idea behind these cards of generating card advantage, but do so using a consistent engine rather than random singleton bombs.

I understand you are trying to innovate, but looking at the list your control elements are somewhat present but weak.  Let's take a look.  This is a good start for disruption, but why not 4 of each.  That would be a better start.

I've explained this already in this post, but again, 10 control slots is more than most already.

This tutor suite is standard for the list, except you list will not make the wishes active until turn 3 most of the time, which in all likelihood maybe too late.  I already talked about the lack of tinker targets.

With the control elements present in this deck, turn 3 is not too late to simply grab some removal for whatever slipped through.

This is what does not subscribe to the Weismann shool as you claim.  While these are very flexible cards, they do not give you enough options against the resolved threats.  This was the nice thing about Weismann decks, in that when your opponent played a spell, you had to decide how you wanted to deal with it.  With only these answers in the main, you better counter it or you may be in trouble.  

These cards are further supplemented by Cunning Wish.  In playing this deck, every time an opponent plays a spell, I do decide how to deal with it: whether to counter it (if I didn't already Duress it away) or to search for the appropriate removal.

This is your plan for winning at your leisure.  While welder beats is ok for a stax build where your opponent cannot play spells, it's probably a mistake to rely on that to win in this decks.  Aggro can just race you.  One of the important plans of Weismann was to use offensive defensive creatures like Serra Angel and then Morphling.  Those creatures are still good, but Meloku would be much better.  That card is precisely what a deck like this will use as a creature.  Zherbus has advocated Goblin Trenches, Decree of Justice, and Exalted Angel in the past. These types of finishers are exactly what this school likes to use since they can be defensive.  Just recently I used Hoofprints of the Stag as my finisher of choice, although that will be no good since brainstorm was the biggest culprit for charging it.  This section of your deck is the most lacking, assuming that you actually do get control.

Aggro stops being a problem when Platz hits the board, and all my future disruption is geared towards stopping their few relevant removal cards.  Platz is the epitome of an offensive defensive creature that the Weissman school espouses.  With it, you're defense is absolutely impenetrable if you can protect it.

Overall, I am positive that these theories are outdated and cannot be applied to a format that is intrinsically more broken than the format for which those decks and theories were generated.  While some of the basic ideas can be applied, you need to look at the format as it is now.  This list does not control the board enough, to be a control deck, and cannot win fast enough against other broken starts.  Generally, this deck is designed to be ~50/50 with most all of the field, but this list will never accomplish that with so many glaring errors. 

We'll just have to agree to disagree here.  I feel that sufficient refinement of this deck can make it a contender.  With that in mind, the back and forth discussion on this deck will allow modifications to be made that will strengthen it.

[RJ]

It seems that you don't want help, and that your list is perfect.  I know this list is not perfect...I have played this deck in one form or another for 14 years and this does not stand up to the other incarnations.  I don't want to make this list right now, since I don't know what I'll be attempting to exploit, but I definitely won't be using this as a base.  I do wish you well, and would like to know your tournament results when you do play this in a tournament.  Good luck and you win.

[bluemage55]

It seems that you don't want help, and that your list is perfect.  I know this list is not perfect...I have played this deck in one form or another for 14 years and this does not stand up to the other incarnations.  I don't want to make this list right now, since I don't know what I'll be attempting to exploit, but I definitely won't be using this as a base.  I do wish you well, and would like to know your tournament results when you do play this in a tournament.  Good luck and you win.

I'm not suggesting this list is perfect.  I do, however,  prefer to discuss any and all suggestions, because I obviously have compelling rationales behind what I already constructed. 

After hearing a response to my counterarguments, I will then evaluate the arguments and test changes thereafter.

Already based on the comments I recieved, I have tested and made the following changes:

+1 Thirst for Knowledge
+1 Tormod’s Crypt
+1 Mana Crypt
+1 Sol Ring

-1 Chromatic Sphere
-1 Gush
-1 Strip Mine
-1 Crucible of Worlds

SB:
+4 Leyline of the Void
-1 Engineered Explosives
-2 Pithing Needle
-1 Pyroclasm

[chingpaq]

OT: This post is not really related to Keeper but more of a lil something to our dear Oscar Tan

Oscar Tan is not an Authority on, well, anything Magic related. He never was.

Oscar Tan is really not a person to cite on such lists. You do realize he never actually really played Magical tournaments, right? And what Magic he did play ended easily half a decade ago. He played via Apprentice and took the games he won for his articles, but I know firsthand he discarded all the games where he got blown out.

To quote one of our senior Vintage Players here in Manila, Philippines

Oscar Tan has played a couple of times with Michael's tournament (local organizer here in Manila). He also played in the first NG(Manila) tournaments(2001/2002?).

Oscar Tan also pushed magic and vintage before the time when proxy tournaments became accepted -- although he played on apprentice/MWS, it was during a time when vintage tournaments were sanctioned affairs, and the majority of players were unpowered. I'd say that he was quite influential on the proliferation of magic while everyone else was saying "type 1 is dead because there aren't enough cards" -- if I recall correctly, he had an article saying that proxies were the future of magic(we still have to look for this article), and it now is.

I'm not too fond of his articles, though. Every deck he play is the best deck ever, except that oscar tan only concentrates on keeper-like decks. [EDIT some]

Thanks  Now back to your discussions

[nineisnoone]

But really, chromatic star screams "there is something better than me!" And 5? I don't really want to open with one in my opening hand, let alone multiples.

For the purposes of drawing through Welding, the only cantrip artifacts that fulfill that purpose are Chromatic Star and Sensei's Divining Top.

And I'm saying, I don't feel that's enough. Besides even Welding only gets you 1 card every other turn (assuming you only Weld). You're the control deck, and you're underpowered and narrow. I didn't actually read the article referenced, but I know enough that that is not the right combination of cards... especially for control. You really need to pound for pound be better, and you have fewer business spells for running Stars and Drawing is that much worse because you'll draw into Stars over the card you really wanted.

But that's me.

[bluemage55]

And I'm saying, I don't feel that's enough. Besides even Welding only gets you 1 card every other turn (assuming you only Weld). You're the control deck, and you're underpowered and narrow. I didn't actually read the article referenced, but I know enough that that is not the right combination of cards... especially for control. You really need to pound for pound be better, and you have fewer business spells for running Stars and Drawing is that much worse because you'll draw into Stars over the card you really wanted.

By that logic, why run card drawing at all?

[AngryPheldagrif]

And I'm saying, I don't feel that's enough. Besides even Welding only gets you 1 card every other turn (assuming you only Weld). You're the control deck, and you're underpowered and narrow. I didn't actually read the article referenced, but I know enough that that is not the right combination of cards... especially for control. You really need to pound for pound be better, and you have fewer business spells for running Stars and Drawing is that much worse because you'll draw into Stars over the card you really wanted.

By that logic, why run card drawing at all?

Because normal control decks run efficient card drawing that independently nets raw advantage and/or quality filtering, neither of which Welder/Star has. Take Intuition/AK for example. AK on its own is blue, an instant, and cantrips, and every one after the first is pure advantage. Intuition on its own is blue, an instant, and can act as a brute-force tutor for any 3/4-of or just to fetch out powerful spells. Together they are an engine that nets you card advantage equivalent to Ancestral Recall, with the potential to offer a sick +5 raw card advantage if you have or have access to the fourth AK. Even if you've already passed the first one, the engine is a single-shot respectable +3 raw.

So what exactly is Welder/Star supposed to offer? Welder on its own is largely irrelevant aside from recurring Tormod's Crypt and mana tricks, aside from your single Platinum Angel which you want to be Tinkering out anyways. Star? Star is, as Zherbus said, a tempo black hole. I'm going to explain this in the next paragraph. Together? Together the two cards, with the additional requirement of another artifact in play or the graveyard, provide an engine which doesn't even achieve raw parity until the third turn of successful operation. That isn't an engine, it's a cute trick in the worst way.

Why is Chromatic Star bad? I could write a novel on it, but I'll try to fit it into one paragraph. First, we have to take the simple data of what it does. Chromatic Star takes an input of  + and gives you  (rainbow), net card parity, and +1 storm count. The downsides are that it loses you a net of 1 mana and only achieves card parity. The upsides are that it raises your storm and filters colorless to rainbow mana. Of those upsides, storm is largely irrelevant to you and the filtering? You're only three-color and run 7 dual lands. If you need Star to help with that then you're probably dead in the water anyways. So in summary, the main function of Chromatic Star is to lose you a mana. This is the basic definition of a tempo black hole. You really didn't do your homework in building this or else you would have had a big red flag come up. Chromatic Star sees virtually no Vintage play. And every deck it has been played in has storm cards to maximize the upsides. For you it does nothing except create miserable opening hands and waste time when other decks would be making relevant plays.

The first paragraph of your post even specifically welcomed constructive criticism. We're providing it, you should stop blowing it off.

[bluemage55]

So what exactly is Welder/Star supposed to offer? Welder on its own is largely irrelevant aside from recurring Tormod's Crypt and mana tricks, aside from your single Platinum Angel which you want to be Tinkering out anyways. Star? Star is, as Zherbus said, a tempo black hole. I'm going to explain this in the next paragraph. Together? Together the two cards, with the additional requirement of another artifact in play or the graveyard, provide an engine which doesn't even achieve raw parity until the third turn of successful operation. That isn't an engine, it's a cute trick in the worst way.

It's not intended to be an engine.  The most important reason the Stars are being used is that they are artifacts, which means that they pitch to Thirst for Knowledge and can be sacrificed for Tinker.  The fact that they can be used with Welder to draw cards is a cute trick, and I've never pretended otherwise. 

That said, what sets the Stars apart from other artifacts I can be pitching to Thirst is that they are inexpensive and cycle for a net cost of 1 mana.  So if they are tempo losses, they are better in that regard than AK in that they cycle for a net loss of 1 colorless mana rather than 2 (and do another cute trick in color filtering, which is randomly good for the rare color screw moment and EE).  They also cost you net 0 mana when you have Academy in play.

Is there a significant problem with an artifact that cycles for net -1 mana?  If so, why is Top considered acceptable?

Why is Chromatic Star bad? I could write a novel on it, but I'll try to fit it into one paragraph. First, we have to take the simple data of what it does. Chromatic Star takes an input of  + and gives you  (rainbow), net card parity, and +1 storm count. The downsides are that it loses you a net of 1 mana and only achieves card parity. The upsides are that it raises your storm and filters colorless to rainbow mana. Of those upsides, storm is largely irrelevant to you and the filtering? You're only three-color and run 7 dual lands. If you need Star to help with that then you're probably dead in the water anyways. So in summary, the main function of Chromatic Star is to lose you a mana. This is the basic definition of a tempo black hole. You really didn't do your homework in building this or else you would have had a big red flag come up.

For this list it serves a particular function that has been previously described already.  It's primarily intended to be a artifact that happens to incidentally provide functionality that has been lost with restricted BS.  Would you be as critical if it were Top instead?

Chromatic Star sees virtually no Vintage play.

Of all your arguments, this is the least compelling.  Whether or not a card sees play is not a guarantee that it is not potentially valuable in the future.

The first paragraph of your post even specifically welcomed constructive criticism. We're providing it, you should stop blowing it off.

I do welcome criticism, and I take advantage of it when it raises legitimate concerns.  For example, Zherbus's pointing out that I am light on GY hate was met immediately with my suggestion of bringing in maindeck crypt in place of the Sphere.

However, if you indicate a lack of understanding of why I have made certain decisions, I prefer to communicate those rationales to you so that you may shape your criticism to be more accurate and relevant.

Don't think the fact that I disagree with some of the criticisms mean that I am blowing it off.  If I were to simply take every piece of advice given, it would only be an indication that I haven't thought out the card choices myself.  Rather, I have reasons for the list, and would prefer to share them so that you can understand and criticize those reasons, or understand and accept those reasons.

[Hydra]

So what exactly is Welder/Star supposed to offer? Welder on its own is largely irrelevant aside from recurring Tormod's Crypt and mana tricks, aside from your single Platinum Angel which you want to be Tinkering out anyways. Star? Star is, as Zherbus said, a tempo black hole. I'm going to explain this in the next paragraph. Together? Together the two cards, with the additional requirement of another artifact in play or the graveyard, provide an engine which doesn't even achieve raw parity until the third turn of successful operation. That isn't an engine, it's a cute trick in the worst way.

It's not intended to be an engine.  The most important reason the Stars are being used is that they are artifacts, which means that they pitch to Thirst for Knowledge and can be sacrificed for Tinker.  The fact that they can be used with Welder to draw cards is a cute trick, and I've never pretended otherwise. 

So your entire card drawing "engine" is just your TFKs?  For the sake of comparison, lets bust out the draw engines of other "known" decks in the format:

Ichorid: Bazaar of Baghdad, Street Wraith
Goblins: Goblin Recruiter, Goblin Matron, Goblin Ringleader
Fish: Dark Confidant for sure, other options vary based on builds
Bazaar Oath: Bazaar of Baghdad, Deep Analysis
Control Slaver: Thirst for Knowledge, other options available include Bazaar, Top and Careful Study, or even going back to the Goth Slaver Intuition + Accumulated Knowledge
Drain Tendrils: Intuition + AK and TFKs
Long: Draw 7s
Bomberman: TFKs, Spellbombs, possibly Intuition + AK, Top
Stax: Bazaar and Crucible

If your entire "card engine" is just TFKs, I'm at a complete loss as to how you expect to outclass any of the above listed decks, as they all have engines that are frankly flat out better than just your TFKs.  Stars are at best "cute", and cute doesn't win tournaments.  Tops would be a bit of an improvement, but you're still going to only be better than some of the above listed decks in terms of engines with Tops instead of Stars, and when you're the control deck, your "card engine" frankly *needs* to be better than the other guy's.  That's essentially why Keeper died out in the first place, it's card advantage engine (Skeletal Scrying) proved to be inferior to CS and Gifts and thus it was muscled out.

Another thing I'd like to ask about is your use of Will.  Decks like CS can "go off" with Will to stuff their mitt with cards and use Mindslaver to completely incapacitate their opponent.  Long and Gifts used it to generate the storm to just flat out win with Tendrils.  Even the old Keeper decks had Balance or Mind Twist (or both) to completely rob their opponents of outs.  Your deck lacks the ability to do this, which is a severe oversight in design if you plan on Will actually winning games for you.  Yes, sometimes Will for something simple like Recall and replaying Lotus is enough to win the game for you, but every other deck in recent memory that used Will was designed to at least in part capitalize on the "going off" aspect, and your draw engine and win conditions seem designed to negate Will's ability to do that.  I'm very curious as to whether or not you really put much thought into how Will effects the deck design, or if it's just there because it's "broken".

[Zombie Shakespeare]

You should play this at the next Eudemonia event on June 22nd. It is only an hour away from Davis. That way you could post on how the deck performed at an actual tournament and back up your positions.

[bluemage55]

If your entire "card engine" is just TFKs, I'm at a complete loss as to how you expect to outclass any of the above listed decks, as they all have engines that are frankly flat out better than just your TFKs.  Stars are at best "cute", and cute doesn't win tournaments.  Tops would be a bit of an improvement, but you're still going to only be better than some of the above listed decks in terms of engines with Tops instead of Stars, and when you're the control deck, your "card engine" frankly *needs* to be better than the other guy's.  That's essentially why Keeper died out in the first place, it's card advantage engine (Skeletal Scrying) proved to be inferior to CS and Gifts and thus it was muscled out.

It makes most sense to compare this deck's card drawing as well as filtering to other decks that utilize Thirst for Knowledge (here I am using the above listed changes to replace Gush with the 4th TfK, and losing the Sphere for T. Crypt):

Control Slaver (before restricted BS as I'm not too sure what a standard build would be right now) ran 4x Thirst, 4x BS, and 1x Fact (no Scroll or Vampiric to tutor for card draw). 
Compared to CS, I have -3 BS, -1 Fact, +1 Ponder, +1 Scroll, +1 Vampiric, +2 Wish -> Gifts, +4 Star.

Bomberman (again, before restricted BS) ran 3x Thirst, 4x Brainstorm,  and 2x Spellbomb (no Scroll, Demonic, or Vampiric).
Compared to Bomberman, I have -3 BS, -2 Spellbomb, +1 Thirst, +1 Ponder, +1 Scroll, +1 Demonic, +1 Vampiric, +2 Wish -> Gifts +4 Star.

In this light, I'm not terribly short on drawing through my library, if at all.  However, I have admitted a concern over an insufficient drawing engine, and if you'll refer to my reply to Shock Wave, I asked if I should run 1x Fact in addition to replacing the Gush with TfK.  As he has not yet responded, how do you feel about it?  Would an additional Fact be sufficient to allay such concerns?  Or is more required?

Another thing I'd like to ask about is your use of Will.  Decks like CS can "go off" with Will to stuff their mitt with cards and use Mindslaver to completely incapacitate their opponent.  Long and Gifts used it to generate the storm to just flat out win with Tendrils.  Even the old Keeper decks had Balance or Mind Twist (or both) to completely rob their opponents of outs.  Your deck lacks the ability to do this, which is a severe oversight in design if you plan on Will actually winning games for you.  Yes, sometimes Will for something simple like Recall and replaying Lotus is enough to win the game for you, but every other deck in recent memory that used Will was designed to at least in part capitalize on the "going off" aspect, and your draw engine and win conditions seem designed to negate Will's ability to do that.  I'm very curious as to whether or not you really put much thought into how Will effects the deck design, or if it's just there because it's "broken".

A very good point.  This list lacks the ability to win immediately off Will (except perhaps late in the game by wishing for Brain Freeze).  Most often Will is utilized to generate significant card advantage and establish strong board control (well worth the 2B cc).

Generally speaking, the primary benefit of casting Will for this deck is replaying Ancestral, TfKs, and Thougthseize to generate CA, as well as replenishing the cheap artifacts I have on the board.  Time Walk is of course always appreciated as well.  Most of the time, resolving Will still ends the game for all purposes and intents, despite not being immediately.  I feel the inclusion of Tendrils or Empty would simply serve as win more.  However, I'm open to the idea of utilizing Empty (I loved its many applications when I played Gush storm), but I've not included for the primary reason that I no longer have the benefit of utilizing the Gushbond engine.

Is the current list insufficient to justify the inclusion of Will?

[bluemage55]

You should play this at the next Eudemonia event on June 22nd. It is only an hour away from Davis. That way you could post on how the deck performed at an actual tournament and back up your positions.

To start with, how in the world did you know I am from Davis?

That said, I thank you for the invitation, and I'm interested.  However, given the slew of criticisms leveled at my list, I'm not confident enough yet to invest the $25 entry fee, the $18 worth of gas for the round trip, and the $120.50 for 2x Welders, 3x Thoughtseize, 1x Platz, and 4x Leyline I need to complete this list.  If I feel that my list is ready at that time, I will attend.  If not, I'll still be in Davis for the summer so I'll drop by at one of the later events once I'm prepared.

[Shock Wave]

Because normal control decks run efficient card drawing that independently nets raw advantage and/or quality filtering, neither of which Welder/Star has. Take Intuition/AK for example. AK on its own is blue, an instant, and cantrips, and every one after the first is pure advantage. Intuition on its own is blue, an instant, and can act as a brute-force tutor for any 3/4-of or just to fetch out powerful spells. Together they are an engine that nets you card advantage equivalent to Ancestral Recall, with the potential to offer a sick +5 raw card advantage if you have or have access to the fourth AK. Even if you've already passed the first one, the engine is a single-shot respectable +3 raw.

So what exactly is Welder/Star supposed to offer? Welder on its own is largely irrelevant aside from recurring Tormod's Crypt and mana tricks, aside from your single Platinum Angel which you want to be Tinkering out anyways. Star? Star is, as Zherbus said, a tempo black hole. I'm going to explain this in the next paragraph. Together? Together the two cards, with the additional requirement of another artifact in play or the graveyard, provide an engine which doesn't even achieve raw parity until the third turn of successful operation. That isn't an engine, it's a cute trick in the worst way.

Why is Chromatic Star bad? I could write a novel on it, but I'll try to fit it into one paragraph. First, we have to take the simple data of what it does. Chromatic Star takes an input of  + and gives you  (rainbow), net card parity, and +1 storm count. The downsides are that it loses you a net of 1 mana and only achieves card parity. The upsides are that it raises your storm and filters colorless to rainbow mana. Of those upsides, storm is largely irrelevant to you and the filtering? You're only three-color and run 7 dual lands. If you need Star to help with that then you're probably dead in the water anyways. So in summary, the main function of Chromatic Star is to lose you a mana. This is the basic definition of a tempo black hole. You really didn't do your homework in building this or else you would have had a big red flag come up. Chromatic Star sees virtually no Vintage play. And every deck it has been played in has storm cards to maximize the upsides. For you it does nothing except create miserable opening hands and waste time when other decks would be making relevant plays.

The first paragraph of your post even specifically welcomed constructive criticism. We're providing it, you should stop blowing it off.

I strongly try to suggest you try to digest the above post, as it clearly articulates the problems with the design of your deck. Theoretically, the flow of the deck seems very poor. You've been given much feedback from experienced players about why this deck is likely to fail. It seems you are convinced otherwise, and that's ok. Now, you're going to have to take the next step and apply your design in practice to loan some credibility to your innovation. It is possible that your deck has some very obscure synergies and flows much better in practice than it seems on the surface. However, trust me when I say that the experienced players on TMD have an uncanny ability to predict, with great accuracy, how a new design will translate in real-time application. We see new, strange deck ideas here every day, and most of them fail miserably. That's perfectly ok, because everyone knows how difficult it is to innovate in Vintage. My point is that if you're seeking feedback from experienced players, and you disagree with what you're being told, then the burden of proof lies with you to demonstrate that your design is capable of performing as you claim it does.

In regards to your question about Fact or Fiction, I strongly recommend adding it and a third Thirst for Knowledge. To me, it just seems like you're moving closer to Slaver, but if you're set of playing something different, at least give your deck a fair chance of drawing some cards when it counts.