[Article] The DCI and Us

[Zherbus]

Link

For those who may have been living under a rock in the past few weeks, there's been a lot of dissatisfaction with how Vintage is managed by the DCI. The frustration comes in varying degrees. It ranges from people merely being unhappy with the hallow explanation Mike Turian gave for the June 2nd announcement to those who want to abandon the DCI altogether.

Warning: There is a lot of recapping and summarizing done there. There's also a few wacky ideas. But mostly, there's some criticism in there. I apologize in advance if it doesn't please.

[The Demon]

A very interesting and enjoyable read. 

[arctic79]

A well thought out and rationalized response and recap of Vintage's current situation.
Your idea of inserts has crossed my mind more then once, I have also thought about full Vintage reprint staples in cardboard.
I hope someone at WotC reads this article because it seems to resonate all the feelings of the Vintage community without the over the top negativity.

[CHOZO]

I love the idea of reprinting older, harder to find cards! And if people were worried about it affecting the secondary market or what ever, maybe they could print them as official dci "proxies"? There could be a dci proxy limit, separate from the regular proxy limit, that way people would still have to get some of the cards. Meh, it makes sense in my head.

[yatagirlofchaos]

I think the idea of reprinting older cards and inserting them in boosters may have some weight to it, but at the same time it seems (is?) extremely perilous. It is definitely worth looking into for Wizards, but it would have to be done very carefully and in a well thought out way, unlike their recent actions concerning T1.

[Zherbus]

I think the idea of reprinting older cards and inserting them in boosters may have some weight to it, but at the same time it seems (is?) extremely perilous.

I agree and I would never want them to do something destructive to the secondary market, but at the same time I think it's nice they do some of the Judge promotions  they do. Something along those lines, harmless and fun. If they were to do something like that, it'd really be up to them, not us, to properly gauge what is safe. I'm just throwing what-ifs out there.

[Metman]

With regards to Wizards reprinting some of their promotional stuff I also think it is a great idea.  I'm not sure if you've noticed though, they haven't been making cool foil moxes and such.  They have been sticking, for the most part, with fairly cheap and fairly common stuff that hasn't been hard to find. 

I'm not sure if harmless and fun could go along with reprinting cards that are more than $100 in today's market.  I think it leaves to much up to the market to determine if reprinting those cards is a good idea.  It's quite possible that printing some cool judge promos of Ancestral Recall would have no declining impact on the price of the originals but like I mentioned it's leaving that up the market something of which i don't think most are keen on. 

[eightywpm]

Well, this *might* be what you are suggesting but let me take a crack at this -

The reprinting of the "promotional" cards would fit into their business plan if these cards were rewarded for <del>participation</del> winning in sanctioned <del> zero-proxy </del> T2  events; vintage players who wish to get ahold of these promotional cards MUST participate in a T2 format with legitimate cards that could still be purchased off the shelves of a local shop.  Wizards could print a finite amount (say, 1000 of each?) and sell them to shops who would use these specifically for prizes in sanctioned events.

If the availability of these cards is low due to a finite number bring printed and they are legal in sanctioned vintage tournaments, they might actually be more valuable than the original cards.  Wizards could actually do this for the entire P9 series over the release of the next 9 sets (~ 3 years, right?  I don't keep up with how often new sets come out).  This of course could be applied to reprinting multiple vintage staples (FOW, duals, etc) and given out as prizes to persons placing 2-4 or 2-8 (depending on value of the original card).

This would have the following effects:
1)  Push T1 players into other formats.  I have seen many arguments that T1 players tend to have more disposable income than the average player in other formats - this would help push some people who would normally deal only in the secondary market into buying cards that are actually T2 legal and making money for Wizards right now.

2)  Promote participation in T1.  Many people look at T1 and go "wow that entry barrier is INSANE" even though it is cheaper than Standard (after a full rotation, at least thats my opinion) because vintage is a one-time investment.  More insane restrictions aside, printing cards that will forever be restricted (moxes, lotus, ancestral and yawgwill all come to mind) given out as first-place tournament prizes seems to benefit everybody.

I realize that the counterargument would be that these prints would neuter the current value of vintage staples - I argue that a limited number (maybe 1000 isn't the right number, I don't know) would mean that the market would not be flooded with a plethora of new cards; rather the newer cards (especially if they are foils) might even have a chance of being more expensive than the originals.  The benefit would be that these new players would have an incentive to play T1 and keep the demand on the original pieces just as high.

This is of course all based on the honesty of the middlemen between Wizards and the players are honest with their use of the cards as tournament prizes; however if they are restricted to being used EXCLUSIVELY as prizes for sanctioned T2 tournaments then Wizards could rather easily keep track of these things.  This seems like it could make money for everybody as people will pay obscene amounts of money for a chance to play for power already - and T2 players who are not at all interested in getting involved with T1 could sell that foil vintage-legal lotus for enough money to pay for their T2 addiction for the next year or two.  Everybody wins - talk about incentive!

[Ulthrion]

Hey, very nice article, it was a fun read. Funny though that the last sections rings more through my head than the actual article. Maybe it's because I've read enough about the restrictions already, and something/anything else seems much more relevant.

About those restrictions. I don't think that the DCI can give precise reasons why cards are restricted for the simple reason that those guidelines will change over time. Vintage is constantly changing and is completely different from 10 years ago, as can be seen with mind twist (one of the most feared cards during the beginning, and not making a dent in Vintage now that it's unrestricted). Any consideration they might have had to once ban that card would be considered wrong by today's standards.
They will have standard by which they operate, but they'll probably be more like guidelines. Making them clear to everyone just gives people a reason to interpret them differently and complain about restrictions anyway.

There main issue I see with the latest developments is that the time between the restrictions, and the explanation of the restrictions is far too great compared to the impact of the restrictions. Taking fundamental peices out of a game/format requires a timely explanation to the public, and I would say, and immediate explanation. Changes as big as these should not have a small blurb at the end of an unrelated article five days after restrictions.

On a personal note, I do like the innovations vintage is forced into, but as a new player to the format, I find the barrier of entry much higher than pre-restrictions, as the set of staples I need to get is not as clearly defined as before. As a suggestion, this can be compensated for by tournament organizers by temporarily allow more proxies until the metagame is a little more stable.

As for the last part of the article, I think that we should look for Wizards to give more support for the Legacy format. Many of the staples there are also valuable in vintage (duals/fetches, forces etc.). Currently, Legacy has sanctioned tournaments, but ultimately depends largely on out of print cards. Current policy concentrated only on the current set(s), which means very little for Legacy. The legacy crowd, with sanctioned tournaments already, would benefit a lot from promotional staples of it's format, and as a result, vintage would also get a lower entry barrier.
In short, I believe that Wizards is currently not tapping into the potantial market of the legacy (and thereby vintage) players as wel as it could do because the pure focus on the latest set is not very relevant for an etenal format.

New sets are important for eternal players obviously, as new staples are constanty printed, but the bulk of staples comes from sets that are no longer supported. I'm not saying that they should reprint onslaught block for people to get fetches, or revised for the duals, but if it would be possible to get a random older legacy staple every couple of boosters/events/whatever, then more people would be inclined to participate in the eternal formats. This in turn tends to create players that stay in the game longer, and is therefor beneficial for the growth of the game.

I think that they should focus on legacy rather than vintage, because it's less daunting for newer players to begin with, already has sanctioned events, and support for legacy will ultimately bleed through to vintage anyway. Less of a barrier for Wizards to start focussing on, and less of a barrier for new players to get into an eternal format.

[zeus-online]

About those restrictions. I don't think that the DCI can give precise reasons why cards are restricted for the simple reason that those guidelines will change over time. Vintage is constantly changing and is completely different from 10 years ago, as can be seen with mind twist (one of the most feared cards during the beginning, and not making a dent in Vintage now that it's unrestricted). Any consideration they might have had to once ban that card would be considered wrong by today's standards.
They will have standard by which they operate, but they'll probably be more like guidelines. Making them clear to everyone just gives people a reason to interpret them differently and complain about restrictions anyway.

Actually i think mind twist was banned for the same reason that they restrict so many other cards: It ended games fast - Of course it dosn't do that today, but back then noone was playing force of will and the format was a lot slower.

/Zeus

[Zherbus]

FYI, I wrote my email which contained nothing really new except this excerpt:

3) I'm aware of the Vintage prelim tournaments for champs. I think it would go a LONG way to giving Eternal a warm fuzzy if at tournaments throughout the year, there were Legacy and Vintage prelims. Maybe just like another 4 of each or something. Basically, it'd be like renaming the side events and keeping track of a name.

[orgcandman]

I liked this article. The message I took from it was twofold:

1) Don't abandon the DCI (agree)
2) We should push for more of a slice of the WotC pie. (strongly agree).

As far as #1 goes, I've been on board with that forever.

As for #2, I think that rather than finding ways to separate ourselves from the "eternal-unfriendly" DCI tournament scene, we should find creative ways to integrate. If there were more posts concerning this and people looked at them for more than just the 3 seconds it takes to write "Well, umm...they're the DCI who cares?" Vintage might actually be more than the forgotten cast off* of magic.

* I did not write red-headed or step-child. I suggest that we phase that saying out before those of us with red hair and/or who are step children invent a device that lets us STAB YOU IN THE FACE via the internet.

[Zherbus]

* I did not write red-headed or step-child. I suggest that we phase that saying out before those of us with red hair and/or who are step children invent a device that lets us STAB YOU IN THE FACE via the internet.

I had red hair before it turned brown, and was a dual-step child. I claim immunity.

[wraith985]

* I did not write red-headed or step-child. I suggest that we phase that saying out before those of us with red hair and/or who are step children invent a device that lets us STAB YOU IN THE FACE via the internet.

I had red hair before it turned brown, and was a dual-step child. I claim immunity.

Ah, so Zherbus is now officially the red-headed step-child of the Vintage community

I liked the article. Even handed but still took the DCI to task where there were perceived failings.

[Eandori]

As an owner of full power 9, set of 40 dual lands, 4 drains, library, 3 bazaars, etc etc etc.  I would indeed be effect by the printing of proxies...

However... I support it.  Fully.  I love vintage and I want to see it played more.  I think the proxies should have PROXY across the face of the card and only be legal in DCI Vintage sanctioned tournaments that support proxies.  Keep the limit of 10 proxies, and they must be official (reprint proxies). 

Value of old cards will drop with reprints, but it will also rise with more people playing them and wanting the real deal.

[arctic79]

I seriously doubt the current secondary market will be affected all that much on the $100+ cards.
Most serious vintage players are all about the pimp.  So people will still pay to track down a Beta Timewalk, Beta is still more pimped then a new foil or even with the new frames.  A limited edition run with a proper distribution could keep things in check.  Besides dealers won't be hurt by this because I'ld rather sell packs at $10 each knowing I'll sell out then have a Mox sit in my showcase for 3 months till some one buys it.  Things like duals and other staples will hardly be affected, maybe $5 swing down at the most. 
As for all those that have their stuff already, big fricking whoop.  If you look at your cards as an investment then you should also look at what happens to your financial investments, they go up and down too, it's a fact of life.  Besides if your P9 set is your retirement plan you need your head checked.

[eightywpm]

The problem is that a set of reprints will have the one of the two following impacts: 
1) it will drive the secondary market prices down due to influx of large numbers of cards
--OR--
2) if the limited edition is not printed in abundance then it will have limited profit potential for Wizards. 

Either way, there is a price to pay by Wizards because they either:
1) neuter the value of older cards and therefore neutering the idea of cards holding any long-term value which currently only happens in eternal formats and particularly with the cards that we would like reprinted
--OR--
2) makes so little money that reprinting this set is hardly worth it.

Handing out the cards as prizes for participation in sets that are already in print seems like it would drive up their profits by selling more packs and it would open more people up to playing all formats.  This also saves them the trouble of worrying about a newly printed set being legal in Standard because they could simply say that these promotional tournament prizes are not T2 legal.

Also you are forgetting that not all players will gravitate towards trying to acquire beta pieces.  Personally, I would rather have a set of cards that were in NM/M condition becuase to my mind they would have a longer shelf life (we have all had cards that look like they go old on us, even if they arent in use) as opposed to looking for a beta piece.  I actually think that the reprints, if they are only able to be acquired by winning tournaments and such, might even be worth more than the original beta pieces.  Note that they could print T1 staples in rotations and that over time there would be a large number of promotional prints that were seperate from each other:  you could start with printing ancestral and lotus as the first place prizes for the next set release, then move onto moxes and forces and on and on (not necessarily those pairings) but after you've gone through a whole rotation you could start over again and keep this tournament reward as a prize for a long-term profitable busnessplan because to have a chance to win these pieces you would have to win a Standard event which keeps people buying cards without neutering the prices in secondary markets.

If Wizards were to make these cards finite but able on request from shopowners, my guess is that you would see tournament numbers skyrocket which would also encourage more people to participate and not be restricted to limited tournament opportunities and might even bring in new markets.  It would show that they are really pushing for this thing and that the cash value of the prizes could be enormous.

As far as the long-term investment of out of print staples, the demand for those might go down slightly and they may lose value.  However, if the process works and you drive more people into the T1 community the demand for such pieces would likely go up and they would regain their value if not soar afterwards.  Think of it in terms as giving up some of the equity in the cards with the hope that they would go up even higher.  And most people I know who own vintage staples would lose 50 dollars on each of their power pieces if it meant there would be more tournaments.

If Wizards announced that this was going to be their new policy a few months ahead of actually going through with it (like say, before the release of the next set) then those worried about value of their pieces would have a few months to unload them. 

Note that this process would bring more pieces to the community and allow for more sanctioned T1 events that did not require proxies - this is something the DCI could get behind.  It seems to be winning on just about every front - if anybody sees any flaws in my reasoning PLEASE tell me because I'm typing this thinking that I'm some kind of genius.  Maybe I should email this to Wizards R&D and see what they say.

[arctic79]

I'm confused as to why the secondary market value of the cards even matters.  Sure some people paid a lot of money for their cards but I remember 8 years ago or so during a downturn I sold my original collection for peanuts (I regret).  The game isn't about profit, it's about playing a game and bringing in some new blood and getting the old blood to spend money that helps the game.  And I'm sorry but if I went and bought anything out of print from a store it does nothing to help WotC, so why should they care?

Promotional cards would be great for ranking T8 but how many cards does that put into circulation?     
Not many. an extra 150-200 cards a year (if T8 each got one), going to mostly players that already have them or access to them (Pro-circuit perennial players). 

Of course the obvious of WotC printing more then 2 possible cards a set that could be used in Vintage might help.

[eightywpm]

Well

I'm confused as to why the secondary market value of the cards even matters.  Sure some people paid a lot of money for their cards but I remember 8 years ago or so during a downturn I sold my original collection for peanuts (I regret).  The game isn't about profit, it's about playing a game and bringing in some new blood and getting the old blood to spend money that helps the game.  And I'm sorry but if I went and bought anything out of print from a store it does nothing to help WotC, so why should they care?

Magic is a collectable cad game - the value of collectables has to hold.  If they reduce the value of collectable they lose their credibility as a collectable item.  This in turn acts as another roadblock to bringing in new customers.  You can add this to the impact it would have on the community that already owns the cards - if the cards lose value altogether then how confidant would the players who lost that value be in purchasing future cards?  The great thing about magic has been that you can dump money into cards (especially power) and use them and pretty much get back what you paid for them when you're ready to stop playing.  Threaten to take that away and you give people a good reason not to get involved in the format in the first place.

Promotional cards would be great for ranking T8 but how many cards does that put into circulation?    
Not many. an extra 150-200 cards a year (if T8 each got one), going to mostly players that already have them or access to them (Pro-circuit perennial players). 

Of course the obvious of WotC printing more then 2 possible cards a set that could be used in Vintage might help.

The number of cards put into circulation is something for r&d to digest - I don't pretend to know what the metrics are for how many players can make zero-proxy vintage decks but my guess is that the number is small enough to be a major factor in the obvious lack of sanctioned T1 events.  Perhaps a TMD poll could be setup to get this data if it is necessary?  I saw a poll on a recent thread regarding whether or not to use the b&r list in a tournament.  This would collect data from people already involved in the community and give an idea to how lacking these cards really are in the first place.

And, while the skilled players would obviously have the greatest chance of acquiring these cards, there would also be a huge number of casual players who had the same shot at it - and the prize would hold value if they were legitimate reprints of the original cards.  If a pro player won the cards and was not interested in becoming active in vintage, or already owned the cards, he would most likely sell the winnings to make it available for somebody looking to break into the vintage scene.  It would turn that card he already owns into one more vintage player or make one more vintage player closer to being able to play in zero-proxy events which in the long run is good for the community.

The whole point is that the secondary market is important as long as Wizards claims that MTG is a "collectable" card game.  And that the reprints would have to bring a profit to them.  It seems like rewarding participation in environments that are the bread and butter of their profits would solves this problem, and without flooding the secondary market, prizes seems like the best way to keep the numbers down.  AND you can cycle through the cards so that there will always be a path for the casual players to get into T1 by using T2 as a springboard.  Seems like it would be good for the health of all formats.  And the demand is already high enough for these cards that players who did not want to spring into T1 could sell the cards and get a huge number of T2 staples.

I'm still looking for the downside.

[arctic79]

Well sports cards have seen their share of ups and downs, way more then magic has, all collectibles go through fluctuation.  Like I said if this is an investment plan you have some priorities to get straight.

Maybe sanctioned proxies are the way to go, placed randomly into packs like those stupid hints and tips cards.  This for sure won't affect any of the secondary market.  Another idea would to be random P9 cards one in 500 cases of the core set.  Everyone would have a chance and the core set being the worst selling would pick up in sales.

[arkmagus]

That article was a good read and it articulated a lot of the sentiments that have been running high since 6/1.  I'm also looking forward to Mike Turian's clarification to get a bearing on where Vintage now stands, vis-a-vis the DCI.

With regard to getting the DCI more on board the Eternal formats, my vote is on printing "official proxies".  That generates income for the DCI ($10 Ancestral, anyone?) and encourages potential new Vintage players, without warping the secondary market and without ruining the collectible nature of the game.  It's absolutely win-win.

[Zherbus]

That generates income for the DCI ($10 Ancestral, anyone?) and encourages potential new Vintage players, without warping the secondary market and without ruining the collectible nature of the game.  It's absolutely win-win.

The devil's advocate is two-fold:

1) Those sort of exist in Collectors Edition anyway. Some TO's won't let you play with them, but any card they print with a normal Magic card back would be awkward to say "yeah, you can play these, just not in sanctioned events!"

2) Any widespread printing of Power cards meant to be played with WILL be bad for the secondary market. Whatever they do should be in very low quantities, but enough to be felt.

[Khahan]

Very good article. Very well thought out and very well presented. It was this kind of response from the T1 community that I feel prompted Mike Turian to agree to write a more extensive article.

As for the speculation on the restrictions my feelings are this:
I think some power-that-be has gotten it into his mind that T1 should be more varied in color. Green and White will never be the main color of a deck as long as U is as powerful as it is.  I think these restrictions were done with the purpose of forcing T1 to 'expand' its deck choices.   


But thank you for the article. It put many of my own unorganized thoughts into words.

[Sean Ryan]

Thanks for the article.

I have been thinking about the best way to reform the DCI since the restrictions and amongst all the different ideas why not petition for WOTC to hire a consultant every three months to help them make more informed decisions about the restricted list?  This consultant could act as a bridge between the DCI and our community adding transparency to the process while communicating the values of each party.  Consultants do not have the last say, but simply provide their expertise on a given topic. 

Stephen Menendian is probably the most qualified to act as a Vintage consultant for WOTC, but that would be up to them.

Any thoughts?
     

[Zherbus]

Stephen Menendian is probably the most qualified to act as a Vintage consultant for WOTC, but that would be up to them.

I love Steve, but there needs to be a Ying to his Yang. Even if it were someone like myself, a near opposite on many things, I'd want there to be other cases made from different angles.

[Purple Hat]

Very good article. Very well thought out and very well presented. It was this kind of response from the T1 community that I feel prompted Mike Turian to agree to write a more extensive article.

As for the speculation on the restrictions my feelings are this:
I think some power-that-be has gotten it into his mind that T1 should be more varied in color. Green and White will never be the main color of a deck as long as U is as powerful as it is.  I think these restrictions were done with the purpose of forcing T1 to 'expand' its deck choices.   


But thank you for the article. It put many of my own unorganized thoughts into words.

I think if wizards wants colors other than black and blue to be heavily played they need to stop printing all the good cards/good mechanics in blue and black.  they can pretend that this is a problem that has been solved in recent sets, but it isn't.  Affinity is most strongly aligned with blue and black, the best cards from many of the current cycles are blue or black.  The problem is that giving these two colors control of card advantage and clever tricks has resulted in a fundimental inbalance in how the colors work that will always play out in the larger formats, and frequently play out in the smaller ones.  there need to be green and white cards that don't suck before people will start playing with them.  The fact of the matter is that life gain and giant high cost creatures aren't very good in constructed in the general case.  The sooner wizards realizes this and starts printing cool stuff for those two colors the better.

on all this consultant stuff....it couldn't be a current player.  it'd have to be an active retiree.  current players are too heavily tied to the decks they are playing to really give an objective opinion.

[Sean Ryan]

I love Steve, but there needs to be a Ying to his Yang. Even if it were someone like myself, a near opposite on many things, I'd want there to be other cases made from different angles.

I hear you. 

on all this consultant stuff....it couldn't be a current player.  it'd have to be an active retiree.  current players are too heavily tied to the decks they are playing to really give an objective opinion.

This is a valid concern, but their is no objectivity here.  Zherbus' yin-yang comment about Smennen reveals my point.  Yes, you can establish criteria that states such facts as, "Turn one wins, or virtual wins ie Trinisphere, are not acceptable.  We will restrict cards until their is only a small chance that a player can win on turn one (the percentages would have to be worked out)."  Yet, this 'objective' criteria comes from a set of values about what is best.  We must first establish an ethical ground before we proceed with logic, thats why these discussions create so much debate.  We are also balancing rationalism (values and their logical principles) and empiricism (tournament data) to inform the decision making process.  If one is able to clarify their values and partially their assumptions then the issue of bias is highly diminished.  For example, it is widely known that Menendian supports banning Yawgmoth's Will.  Even if this would open up design space making a healthier format, WOTC and much of the community believes that this would violate the value that Vintage does not ban cards for power reasons but is the place where you can play every single card (excluding those involving gambling).  A good consultant would not press this point, but would take his employers values and try to develop strategies that work from them.         

Right now all of these variable and contexts are both obscured and appear to have some major inconsistencies.  Having a consultant or a better yet multiple consultants could help to define and clarify to the community what it is that we are dealing with.  Right now I don't think WOTC even knows what they are doing with Vintage, and if do know then they are not applying the principle of Universality in the way they approach restrictions which is the most worrisome point to me.         

Part of the process should involve the clarification of the assumptions and values of each party involved.  It's pretty clear from Smennen's articles that he leans to the side of less regulation and more brokenness.  Part of this process would be for WOTC to articulate their values (or force them to think about what they are in this case) and what are the parameters of a healthy Vintage format.  The first step would be the development and communication of the values involved which could then be applied toward restrictions/un-restrictions.     

This wouldn't necessarily have to be formal.  Even an interview article with Turian on the restricted list by someone from the vintage community could do wonders to open the process up.  Being able to ask questions would be much better then just receiving a statement. 

It would be a great improvement If the DCI would be willing to just email some of the vintage writers and get their take on the format before making changes to the list.  The restriction of Brainstorm and especially Ponder sets a new precedent.  What is it and where will it lead to?
 

[arctic79]

Beuhler, Beuhler, We all know he had something to do with this.  He is still a consultant to WotC and Wizards from what I understand.  He never did like blue or Combo. 

I agree they need some informed minds from the community to consult on these issues. A delegation of 2-5 leaders from Vintage.

[Zherbus]

To be fair, the DCI apparently gets a good chunk of the data from reading articles and forum posts. As Stephen is the only regular Vintage article contributer in the past three years or more, he may have become something of a default. Forum posts would count more, but sometimes it's hard to wade through the chafe. It's one of the reasons we try to keep forum post quality high. It's also the reason why I've been encouraging people to write more on Vintage.

Stephen is a great strategist and theorist and has been my friend and teammate since 2002, and a respected acquaintance even before that. More people need to get their thoughts out there. MTGSalvation puts up stuff, MagicEternal.com, and occasionally StarCityGames will have a slot it needs filled. The DCI knows and checks on all of those sites. We do have influence, but we're not exercising it properly.

[Tha Gunslinga]

Beuhler, Beuhler, We all know he had something to do with this.  He is still a consultant to WotC and Wizards from what I understand.  He never did like blue or Combo. 

Read this and then tell me that again.