nineisnoone
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« Reply #30 on: June 13, 2008, 12:45:05 pm » |
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the only truely problematic card I see is extripate. whether you go after that with xantids, more duress effects or some other method is still a question that I don't really have an answer for yet. otherwise dragon seems to be reasonably well positioned to go after the current meta since it beats up on things like Control Slaver and Stax.
I'm not a big fan of reverent silence in dragon because there are problem perminants that aren't enchantments that you'd like to bounce (orb of dreams, true believer, waterfront bouncer, platinum angel if not playing helkite). Since you have mana, unlike ichorid, you should play better answers to these threats like chain of vapor.
Agreed on both points. I don't think there is much you can do about Extirpate though. I think that's one that we have to take on the chin.
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bronxie
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« Reply #31 on: June 13, 2008, 12:49:52 pm » |
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the only truely problematic card I see is extripate. whether you go after that with xantids, more duress effects or some other method is still a question that I don't really have an answer for yet. otherwise dragon seems to be reasonably well positioned to go after the current meta since it beats up on things like Control Slaver and Stax.
I'm not a big fan of reverent silence in dragon because there are problem perminants that aren't enchantments that you'd like to bounce (orb of dreams, true believer, waterfront bouncer, platinum angel if not playing helkite). Since you have mana, unlike ichorid, you should play better answers to these threats like chain of vapor.
Agreed on both points. I don't think there is much you can do about Extirpate though. I think that's one that we have to take on the chin. Just play around it and win in what way without dragons?
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Dante
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« Reply #32 on: June 13, 2008, 01:01:46 pm » |
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the only truely problematic card I see is extripate. whether you go after that with xantids, more duress effects or some other method is still a question that I don't really have an answer for yet. otherwise dragon seems to be reasonably well positioned to go after the current meta since it beats up on things like Control Slaver and Stax.
I'm not a big fan of reverent silence in dragon because there are problem perminants that aren't enchantments that you'd like to bounce (orb of dreams, true believer, waterfront bouncer, platinum angel if not playing helkite). Since you have mana, unlike ichorid, you should play better answers to these threats like chain of vapor.
Agreed on both points. I don't think there is much you can do about Extirpate though. I think that's one that we have to take on the chin. Just play around it and win in what way without dragons? He was saying that "take on the chin" = game loss in the case of a game 1 Extirpate.
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Harlequin
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« Reply #33 on: June 13, 2008, 01:30:38 pm » |
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You could run a Research and Developement in the sideboard to wish for. Or even run it maindeck.
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nineisnoone
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« Reply #34 on: June 13, 2008, 03:06:45 pm » |
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You could. I think just animating Oona (if you're running her) is going to be better than Wish->Research though. You still have to draw into your Dragon. Living Wish would be a better in the main since it'll get it into your hand. I think Living Wish a strong option for going green, but I recall people saying that they've tested it out and it wasn't worth it.
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fury
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« Reply #35 on: June 13, 2008, 04:33:36 pm » |
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he only truly problematic card I see is extripate. whether you go after that with xantids, more duress effects or some other method is still a question that I don't really have an answer for yet.
Flash had Gigadrowse against Extirpate, it was very efficient. I think it can be tested in Dragon too. It's difficult to counter, and tapping the opponent's black mana may allow us to combo off safely. I'm not a big fan of reverent silence in dragon because there are problem permanents that aren't enchantments that you'd like to bounce (orb of dreams, true believer, waterfront bouncer, platinum angel if not playing helkite). Since you have mana, unlike ichorid, you should play better answers to these threats like chain of vapor.
Orb of dreams is difficult to manage, If you reanim with it on the table, it's generally speaking a draw. That's why Dragon must pack artifact destruction. But for the others, if you can do infinite mana, you can manage platinum and true believer. One Echoing Truth with the witness kill will return any annoying permanent to the opponent's hand. For waterfront bouncer, Dragon has stifle or reanimates in response. Or it may pack Darkblast to kill creatures.
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fury French Vintage player
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c dizzle
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« Reply #36 on: June 13, 2008, 04:47:08 pm » |
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You could run a Research and Developement in the sideboard to wish for. Or even run it maindeck. I find it hard to take any Dragon list seriously that doesn't run Research/Development main. It answers Extirpate and Tormod's Crypt by putting your Dragons back in. In brings in answers (like Reverent Silence) for decks that pack mainboard answers to Dragon (like Leyline of the Void). It allows you to be more aggressive in your sideboarding by taking out certain cards you wanted to have in, since you can get them back in for that game. It allowed me to remove Eternal Witness from the mainboard while still having game 1 access to her after being forced to pitch Oona to FoW. It only costs 2. It is SOOOOO much better than Cunning Wish. I've even cast Development once in a game (which allowed me to get some damage in and then I finished with a reanimated Oona). Strategically, this card in a tremendous tool to have at our disposal. On a related note, I have found that Read the Runes' value has (or will post 6-20-08) significantly decreased. It was such a GREAT card against Oath, preventing Oath from triggering because of those pesky Orchard tokens. It also generated card advantage in those match-ups by trading tokens for cards. I'm not sure if anything is better in that slot, but I've tested Lim-Dul's Vault with promissing results. Has anyone reevaluated RtR's spot lately? With Thoughtseize in my build, the alternate discard engine is almost too redundant.
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dicemanx
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« Reply #37 on: June 13, 2008, 06:43:50 pm » |
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On a related note, I have found that Read the Runes' value has (or will post 6-20-08) significantly decreased. It was such a GREAT card against Oath, preventing Oath from triggering because of those pesky Orchard tokens. It also generated card advantage in those match-ups by trading tokens for cards. I'm not sure if anything is better in that slot, but I've tested Lim-Dul's Vault with promissing results. Has anyone reevaluated RtR's spot lately? With Thoughtseize in my build, the alternate discard engine is almost too redundant. Read the Runes was added to make the deck faster and less dependent on Bazaar; LDVault is returning to the older builds that were much more Bazaar dependent. What is the best approach isn't obvious and alternate strategies have to be tested for sure, but i wouldn't say that RtR has diminished in power because of the fact that Oath might be less prevalent (which might end up to be just the opposite as Shop Aggro and Fish might be on the rise again despite the loss of Brainstorm). Plus, maybe the right approach is to ditch all that disruption and run RtR AND LD Vault. If the format is light on removal/graveyard hate, I'd go with the 4 FoW and ditch the Duresses entirely in favor of 3 LD Vault and a Chain of Vapor.
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c dizzle
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« Reply #38 on: June 16, 2008, 12:06:18 am » |
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Plus, maybe the right approach is to ditch all that disruption and run RtR AND LD Vault. If the format is light on removal/graveyard hate, I'd go with the 4 FoW and ditch the Duresses entirely in favor of 3 LD Vault and a Chain of Vapor. I have always run one Chain of Vapor, but I definitely could see running a silver bullet like Extirpate w/ LDV. In the very limited testing I did with an Extirpate in the main (and zero LDV, a card which makes Extirpate better, IMO), I had some interesting results. I tested it against Tyrant Oath. When I VT'ed for Extirpate the first time, my teammate let VT resolve thinking he would just FoW whatever I tutored up. Then I Extirpated his FoW and left him naked. After doing this twice, something very interesting happened- my opponent actually started proactively countering my tutors when he had FoW in hand (and one in the graveyard). I knew that if he let the tutor resolve, I could get my missing piece and combo off and that he couldn't stop me. I understand that we test a match-up ten straight games and only play three game matches in tournaments so that the type of pattern recognition adjustment that I discussed is unlikely to happen. Despite this, I believe that it is true that, when an opponent sees Extirpate, it changes their thinking and the way they play their deck. That could make a one-of Extirpate a strong choice in the deck. I'll start testing that more seriously and report back.
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Purple Hat
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« Reply #39 on: June 16, 2008, 01:34:07 pm » |
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he only truly problematic card I see is extripate. whether you go after that with xantids, more duress effects or some other method is still a question that I don't really have an answer for yet.
Flash had Gigadrowse against Extirpate, it was very efficient. I think it can be tested in Dragon too. It's difficult to counter, and tapping the opponent's black mana may allow us to combo off safely. I'm not a big fan of reverent silence in dragon because there are problem permanents that aren't enchantments that you'd like to bounce (orb of dreams, true believer, waterfront bouncer, platinum angel if not playing helkite). Since you have mana, unlike ichorid, you should play better answers to these threats like chain of vapor.
Orb of dreams is difficult to manage, If you reanim with it on the table, it's generally speaking a draw. That's why Dragon must pack artifact destruction. But for the others, if you can do infinite mana, you can manage platinum and true believer. One Echoing Truth with the witness kill will return any annoying permanent to the opponent's hand. For waterfront bouncer, Dragon has stifle or reanimates in response. Or it may pack Darkblast to kill creatures. my point was that dragon shouldn't play reverent silence because you care about a great many non enchantment permanents. Dragon can, and historically has managed to, deal with every form of hate listed in this thread other than extripate. I believe extripate can be dealt with, but it's the only thing available that might cause me to change how I play dragon.
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fury
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« Reply #40 on: June 16, 2008, 02:16:26 pm » |
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my point was that dragon shouldn't play reverent silence because you care about a great many non enchantment permanents. Dragon can, and historically has managed to, deal with every form of hate listed in this thread other than extripate. I believe extripate can be dealt with, but it's the only thing available that might cause me to change how I play dragon.
After some tests and some analysis, I agree with you. RS is only useful against Leyline of the Void. My last tournament, plenty of Leyline, showed me that Leyline is not as frequent as we would expect. So it's better to choose more multipurpose cards, like Chain of Vapor and Echoing Truth. 4 of them is enough to manage Leyline. To counter the Extirpate threat, we need to combo off safely, and for that, Xantid Swarm or Abeyance/Orim's Chant should be chosen. Xantid Swarm is cheap, may be reanimated and its ability costs nothing, but it takes one turn to be effective (we lose tempo). Moreover, the metagame should be full of Goblin Welder and Dark Confidant, so people may pack anti-creature spells. That's why Xantid Swarm seems to be now a poor choice. That's why I would play Abeyance/Orim's Chant instead. It takes more mana, but it's a real way to avoid Extirpate and any bounce while comboing off. It is also useful to slow down the opponent by playing it during the opponent's upkeep. This implies a white splash in a UB version, instead of a green splash.
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dicemanx
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« Reply #41 on: June 16, 2008, 10:03:42 pm » |
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Are you guys anticipating a significant amount of Extirpates? I'm thinking that unless the graveyard hate is strong enough to stop Ichorid, it won't be played. This means that cards like Extirpate and Faerie Macabre might be underplayed compared to Leyline and Crypt, unless I'm underestimating the strength of Extirpate against Ichorid.
If Extirpate becomes enough of a problem, the other solution is to run up to 8 Duress + Thoughtseize instead of splashing for Xantid or Abeyance. The suggestion of Gigadrowse is an interesting one too. I'll also be looking at Xantids again if Mana Drain makes a return and if the format slows down.
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Purple Hat
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« Reply #42 on: June 17, 2008, 08:55:49 am » |
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I think we have to go with thoughtsieze main over duress since it can grab fairie macabre. I need to see how the metagame adapts, but I could easily see moving to xantids some time in the future since I think CS will be more heavily played than any other deck and xantid is great vs them. I also advocate the use of damping matrix or cursed totem out of the side since they'll shut off welders and, I think, fairie macabre.
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Tobi
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« Reply #43 on: June 17, 2008, 09:12:00 am » |
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I guess against Faerie Macabre the only thing you can do against is running Stifle, which is also great against Tormod's Crypt. It can also be used to "stifle-in" a Dragon if going into the combo is not possible for any reason.
If you are fearing Extirpate, Chalice@1 may also be a solution. (While Duress/Extirpate are better ones I think)
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goobafish
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« Reply #44 on: June 17, 2008, 09:38:20 am » |
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I think you guys are forgetting that with cards like Damping Matrix, Cursed Totem and Chalice is that when the Dragon comes into play, they get removed, which gives your opponent an opportunity to Extirpate or Macabre your win condition or Dragon. I ran into the same problem a few years ago when i was playing Defense Grid in the sideboard. Also, Chalice comes back with 0 counters on it once it goes RFG and returns.
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Purple Hat
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« Reply #45 on: June 17, 2008, 10:26:43 am » |
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I think you guys are forgetting that with cards like Damping Matrix, Cursed Totem and Chalice is that when the Dragon comes into play, they get removed, which gives your opponent an opportunity to Extirpate or Macabre your win condition or Dragon. I ran into the same problem a few years ago when i was playing Defense Grid in the sideboard. Also, Chalice comes back with 0 counters on it once it goes RFG and returns.
I use cards like damping matrix and cursed totem to counter welder and allow me to play the game the way I want to. I'm not really looking at it as a way to keep going off so much as a way to be able to use my graveyard as a resource. Otherwise your dragons clog up your hand since putting them in the yard before you're ready to go off results in them getting rfg'd.
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Dante
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« Reply #46 on: June 17, 2008, 10:54:39 am » |
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Chalice was an excellent solution at Worlds 2004 because not only did it slow down the Long decks, but also because of the huge concentration of 4CC (stp/beb/brainstorm). [note this was the Worlds that Mark Biller won with Control Slaver that really pushed it ahead in terms of popularity]. Boarding into 4 Chalice + 2 Titans and just pounding their mana base and killing with Titan while they couldn't sculpt their hand, ancestral, or STP anything led me to go 8-0 over that weekend against 4cc including 3-0 in the main event.
I think Chalice is best used for alternate strategies e.g reanimation or Oath and against faster combo, but it remains to be seen what/if "alternate" strategies are going to be effective or if simple bounce/anti-crypt&leyline is enough.
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Neonico
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« Reply #47 on: June 17, 2008, 02:16:59 pm » |
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To deal with Extirpate, what about White splash for abeyance (also deals with crypt, bounce, stifle, faerie macabre and allmost any hate) and pull from eternity ? And possibly some Enchantments removal and Orim's Chant for controle matchup...
Also, the inclusion of oona is absolutly nice. And we're testing mulldrifter build of dragon here in France, in UB/w shell. And tinker=>Titan is an absolute must have in the deck, maindeck.
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« Last Edit: June 17, 2008, 02:23:39 pm by Neonico »
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fury
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« Reply #48 on: June 17, 2008, 05:32:48 pm » |
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Are you guys anticipating a significant amount of Extirpates? I'm thinking that unless the graveyard hate is strong enough to stop Ichorid, it won't be played. This means that cards like Extirpate and Faerie Macabre might be underplayed compared to Leyline and Crypt, unless I'm underestimating the strength of Extirpate against Ichorid.
Ichorid can deal easily with Leyline and Tormod's Crypt. Most of Ichorid builds plays Oxidize, Emerald Charm or Reverent Silence to clean up the table. But it's very difficult and costly in terms of tempo for him to counter Extirpate. That's why I think that Most of decks will play Ichorid, even maindeck. To deal with Extirpate, what about White splash for abeyance (also deals with crypt, bounce, stifle, faerie macabre and allmost any hate) and pull from eternity ? And possibly some Enchantments removal and Orim's Chant for controle matchup...
Also, the inclusion of oona is absolutely nice. And we're testing mulldrifter build of dragon here in France, in UB/w shell. And tinker=>Titan is an absolute must have in the deck, maindeck.
The white splash is great, I'm testing it. I wonder if Tinker/titan is a good thing for Dragon : the Titan effect ruins our mana base, and we have difficulties to find Tinker, which is restricted. But I did test Tinker/Titan only in a 5C color of Dragon, so I don't know what this will be in a UBw version.
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fury French Vintage player
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dicemanx
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« Reply #49 on: June 17, 2008, 10:51:58 pm » |
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I am enamored with Mulldrifter - what an excellent suggestion! Here's what I am currently looking at:
WGDXII ------
4 WGD 1 Oona, Queen of the Fae
4 Intuition 3 Read the Runes
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
3 Necromancy 4 Animate Dead 1 Dance of the Dead --------------------- 24 combo pieces
3 Mulldrifter 3 Deep Analysis 1 Ancestral Recall 1 Demonic Tutor --------------------- 8 card draw/tutors
4 FoW (or 4 Thoughtseize) 3 Duress --------------------- 7 disruption
1 Mox Jet 1 Mox Sapphire 1 Mox Pearl 1 Mox Emerald 1 Mox Ruby 1 Black Lotus 1 Sol Ring 1 Mana Crypt 1 Mana Vault 4 Polluted Delta 1 Flooded Strand 4 Underground Sea 1 Island 2 Ancient Tomb -------------------- 21 mana
SB
3 Chain of Vapor 1 Echoing Truth
4 Illusionary Mask 3 Dreadnaught 4 Trygon Predator (if a Tropical is run in the main)
I like the idea of running Mulldrifter *and* DA; I've also added 2 Ancient Tombs for a mana boost. I'm debating scaling back on the disruption by three slots, and running more combo pieces (Cunning Wish, another Animate spell, and Entomb). I've beefed up the animate count to 8 and dropped the vampiric tutor and swapped the Witness for Oona, which also allowed me to make room in the main by ditching Cunning Wish and in the SB by ditching Stroke.
Out of curiosity, as I understand it the evoke cost is playing the spell as normal except that the evoke cost appends the additional trigger. Can you pay the evoke cost with Illusionary Mask? The Mask plan isn't dependent on this ruling, but it would be nice to add more beatdown into the mix at a cheaper cost. The Mask plan itself might have to be ditched if we see more Null Rods in the format - in that case, I'd either go with a non-transformational SB and add Carpet of Flowers, or go with an Oath SB.
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nineisnoone
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« Reply #50 on: June 17, 2008, 11:06:56 pm » |
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I don't think you can Mask it into play for 3. The card reads "creature card with converted mana cost" and just like if you get Mulldrifter drained it's converted mana cost is 5 regardless of it's evoke.
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vartemis
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« Reply #51 on: June 17, 2008, 11:08:42 pm » |
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I dont believe you can use evoke with mask. It's an ability of the card, not a casting cost in and of itself, sort of like Madness.
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c dizzle
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« Reply #52 on: June 18, 2008, 12:05:40 am » |
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Just a quick word on Faerie Macabre- it really isn't that big of a deal. Dragon players (myself included) have a terrible habit of analyzing what cards can do to them without considering if that card would actually make the cut in a metagame where people think about the best decks and usually not Dragon. Faerie Macabre looks scary, but when you think about it, will it really see that much play? It's not that good against most decks. If CS comes on strong enough, it may see some play. But if CS comes on strong enough, Dragon is in a good spot. In my experience, Dragon is 65-35 against CS. That metagame is favorable to us.
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« Last Edit: June 18, 2008, 08:46:34 am by c dizzle »
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Neonico
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« Reply #53 on: June 18, 2008, 05:04:48 am » |
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Here is my test list for reference... Called DragQueen bye the friend that designed the orignial list, before minor tweaking. 1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth 2 Undergroud River 4 Gemstone Mine 2 Forbidden Orchard 4 City of Brass 1 Mox Pearl 1 Mana Crypt 1 Mox Sapphire 1 Mox Jet 1 Mox Ruby 1 Black Lotus 1 Sol Ring 1 Mox Emerald 4 Bazaar of Baghdad 3 Mulldrifter 4 Worldgorger Dragon 1 Oona, Queen of Fae 1 Eternal Witness 2 Careful Study 3 Intuition 2 Animate Dead 1 Dance of the Dead 3 Necromancy 1 Echoing Truth 1 Vampiric Tutor 1 Demonic Tutor 1 Duress 2 Thoughtseize 1 Ancestral Recall 3 Deep Analysis 4 Force of Will 2 Read the Runes
There are still some numbers i can't exactly figure if i'm Right or wrong. First, for me 21 mana source seems to be the good number actually. But i'm still not sold on 13 lands 8 accelerant, versus 14 lands 7 accelerant (basicly -Pearl +Tarnished Citadel)
This version features both Witness and Oona for the Instant kill (Witness ancestral recall your opponent) and i was seriously thinking of adding the 4th necromancy and considering Pact of Negation as a possible Sideboard option against control.
Also, the second dilemna is 3rd deep analysis versus 3rd Read the runes versus 2nd Duress/3rd Thoughtseize versus 7th reanimator (4th Necromancy). Not still not sold on the 2 carefull study, which are nice early game to smooth a little the draws. Could possibly be 4th dures sefect and any previous suggestions.
Mulldrifter is a really nice addition. Evoke deals with Bridges, and every reanimator spell become an undercosted or instant Conseil of Sorotami, which is really nice in the Control matchup.
Now the Tinker list : Basicly -Witness -Intuition +Tinker/Sundering Titan
As for the sideboard : I play 5 colors maindeck even in a pure UB shell to allow me acces to some interesting Sideboard options : First, my favorite way to deal with leyline of the void remains Wispmare. Its really a good card that gives me another way to deal With Bridges in the dredge matchup. Pull from eternity is played to fight extirpate, Stifle/Abbeyance played against crypt and control matchup, Engineered explosives is also considered.
EDIT : First to add my last last list for reference, and to take in consideration the 2 ancient tombs addition to power out Mulldriter : 1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth 2 Undergroud River/Ancient Tomb 4 Gemstone Mine 2 Forbidden Orchard 4 City of Brass 1 Mox Pearl 1 Mana Crypt 1 Mox Sapphire 1 Mox Jet 1 Mox Ruby 1 Black Lotus 1 Sol Ring 1 Mox Emerald 4 Bazaar of Baghdad 3 Mulldrifter 4 Worldgorger Dragon 1 Oona, Queen of Fae 1 Eternal Witness 3 Intuition 2 Animate Dead 1 Dance of the Dead 3 Necromancy 1 Echoing Truth 1 Vampiric Tutor 1 Demonic Tutor 2 Duress 2 Thoughtseize 1 Ancestral Recall 3 Deep Analysis 4 Force of Will 2 Read the Runes 1 Entomb
In my last tests, i cutt Careful Study for Duress and entomb. Still need testings on this configuration.
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« Last Edit: June 18, 2008, 05:28:25 am by Neonico »
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fury
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« Reply #54 on: June 18, 2008, 05:58:29 am » |
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I am enamored with Mulldrifter - what an excellent suggestion! Here's what I am currently looking at:
WGDXII ------
I like the idea of running Mulldrifter *and* DA; I've also added 2 Ancient Tombs for a mana boost. I'm debating scaling back on the disruption by three slots, and running more combo pieces (Cunning Wish, another Animate spell, and Entomb). I've beefed up the animate count to 8 and dropped the vampiric tutor and swapped the Witness for Oona, which also allowed me to make room in the main by ditching Cunning Wish and in the SB by ditching Stroke.
Out of curiosity, as I understand it the evoke cost is playing the spell as normal except that the evoke cost appends the additional trigger. Can you pay the evoke cost with Illusionary Mask? The Mask plan isn't dependent on this ruling, but it would be nice to add more beatdown into the mix at a cheaper cost. The Mask plan itself might have to be ditched if we see more Null Rods in the format - in that case, I'd either go with a non-transformational SB and add Carpet of Flowers, or go with an Oath SB.
You cannot pay the evoke cost for Mask. It's an alternate cost, not the casting cost. So playing it with mask costs 5 manas. I really like the list. The combo has been reinforce by a more powerful draw engine,with enough disruption. Entomb is a must have, you should include it, because it really accelerates the combo. I'd rather keep Force of Will over Thoughtseize, because disruption is costly in terms of tempo. Lastly, I would play 4 necromancy and 3 animate dead, because the instant power of Necromancy is very useful in most cases. How is your match up against control ? You won't have xantid swarm or Abeyance to pass your combo safely, so I wonder how the match is. Quickly, for the other suggestions : I really like the idea of Pull from eternity. It's an entombx4 against any deck which packs gravehate ! For the rest, I won't choose a 5C Dragon version, because of the mana denial. 12 lands are enough, provided we pack some basic lands (beware of Magus of the moon...)
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« Last Edit: June 18, 2008, 06:02:13 am by fury »
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fury French Vintage player
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c dizzle
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« Reply #55 on: June 18, 2008, 08:44:26 am » |
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City of Brass scares me since you can't go off if it's your only mana source. That happened to me once years ago when I played City in my build. I had my Jet and Sapphire Rack and Ruined in response to my Animate spell when I was set to go off with RtR. I've never played City since.
The deck is very interesting. I would increase the number of animate spells since there are so many more creatures in the deck here. I also think that the name Drag Queen is brilliant!!!
Why doesn't the manabase run duals? I assume you are either afraid of Sundering Titan or considering him as a sideboard option. Nice work.
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nineisnoone
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« Reply #56 on: June 18, 2008, 09:00:48 am » |
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To deal with Extirpate, what about White splash for abeyance (also deals with crypt, bounce, stifle, faerie macabre and allmost any hate) and pull from eternity ? And possibly some Enchantments removal and Orim's Chant for controle matchup...
Quickly, for the other suggestions :
I really like the idea of Pull from eternity. It's an entombx4 against any deck which packs gravehate! For the rest, I won't choose a 5C Dragon version, because of the mana denial. 12 lands are enough, provided we pack some basic lands (beware of Magus of the moon...)
You know, I read the Pull From Eternity suggestion and it didn't even click in my mind why the heck that you'd run it... And now on second thought... That is a huge card. Definitely, thinking to make my deck UBw now....
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I laugh a great deal because I like to laugh, but everything I say is deadly serious.
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fury
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« Reply #57 on: June 18, 2008, 09:14:31 am » |
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City of Brass scares me since you can't go off if it's your only mana source. That happened to me once years ago when I played City in my build. I had my Jet and Sapphire Rack and Ruined in response to my Animate spell when I was set to go off with RtR. I've never played City since.
Of course you can win with only City of brass on the table (with the Witness kill of course). If you have only City in play during the loop, dig your deck until you have Witness in the graveyard and a reanimation spell. Then, you take 3 black manas (-3 life), target Witness, which brings back the reanimate. You cast it, and can bring back any mana source in your hand. You just have to stop the loop to play all moxes, then reanimate again to make infinite mana to win.
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fury French Vintage player
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nineisnoone
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« Reply #58 on: June 18, 2008, 10:40:46 am » |
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Few other cards I noticed the other day that might be of use, only trying out the first and the last. The good, the bad, and the ugly (because I can't read).
Duskmantle, House of Shadow T: Add 1 to your mana pool. UB, tap: Target player puts the top card of his or her library into his or her graveyard.
Wins the game on a dragon loop. Mill the opponent's deck, then mill your own until you hit a Mulldrifter, then pass the turn. Finding room for it can be difficult, I've cut the off color Moxen which slows it down but also speeds it up by adding another win condition.
Rakdos Guildmage (B/R)(B/R) 3B, Discard a card: Target creature gets -2/-2 until end of turn. 3R: Put a 2/1 red Goblin creature token with haste into play. Remove it from the game at end of turn.
It wins in the graveyard and also wins while in play if you have 4 cards in your hand (you have to kill the Dragon to stop the loop). It also forces you into red which is the last color I want to be splashing into the deck.
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« Last Edit: June 18, 2008, 10:54:52 am by nineisnoone »
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I laugh a great deal because I like to laugh, but everything I say is deadly serious.
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Harlequin
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« Reply #59 on: June 18, 2008, 10:48:23 am » |
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Grozoth 6UUU Defender (This creature can't attack.) When Grozoth comes into play, you may search your library for any number of cards that have converted mana cost 9, reveal them, and put them into your hand. If you do, shuffle your library. 4: Grozoth loses defender until end of turn. Transmute 1UU (1UU, Discard this card: Search your library for a card with the same converted mana cost as this card, reveal it, and put it into your hand. Then shuffle your library. Play only as a sorcery.)
Transmute it into your graveyard and then animate it back into play to tutor for.... pretty much anything you want. You can also of course discard it to Bazaar, Read the Runes, or Thoughtseize yourself.
Pretty much anything you want like Colosus of Sardia, Blessed Wind, Leviathan, Volley of Bouldders! Savage  Gozoth has to be the winner of the RTFC award. I've seen so many players think he's amazing!
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